Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On 22/01/13 01:44, Bawolff Bawolff wrote: Given that there are algorithms that can solve our captcha presumably they are mostly preventing the lazy and those that don't have enough knowledge to use those algorithims. I would guess that text on an image without any blurring or manipulation would be just as hard for those sorts of people to break. (Obviously that's a rather large guess). As a compromise maybe we should have straight text in image captchas. A simple thing that could be done is to introduce localized captchas on non-Latin wikis (just remember that not everyone has the appropriate keyboard). This would mean that new captcha-cracking algorithms would need to be developed for each script, and if the wikis are small, spammers would not bother. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
Nikola Smolenski wrote: On 22/01/13 01:44, Bawolff Bawolff wrote: Given that there are algorithms that can solve our captcha presumably they are mostly preventing the lazy and those that don't have enough knowledge to use those algorithims. I would guess that text on an image without any blurring or manipulation would be just as hard for those sorts of people to break. (Obviously that's a rather large guess). As a compromise maybe we should have straight text in image captchas. A simple thing that could be done is to introduce localized captchas on non-Latin wikis (just remember that not everyone has the appropriate keyboard). This would mean that new captcha-cracking algorithms would need to be developed for each script, and if the wikis are small, spammers would not bother. Any developer interested in Wikimedia wiki CAPTCHAs should look at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/CAPTCHA. There's some low-hanging bug fruit there. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:50:32 -0800, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com
wrote:
I tried to build a template which wraps template parameters into data-
attributes. First results have been incouraging, then I find something
logical but unexpected, crushing the whole idea.
I wrote into the code of an infobox-like template something like this:
span data-author={{{author}}}
data-birthdate={{{birthDate}}}/span
and I very happily see that html code had my data wrapped into such span
tags.
But I was testing my code with clean templates, t.i.: templates which
have no wikicode into parameter values (as usually occurs into
it.wikisource). As soon as I tested my idea into another project
(Commons)
I found that any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present
into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
So... I ask you again: is there any sound reason (i.e. safety related,or
server loading related ) reason to avoid that HTML comments, wrapped into
raw page wikicode are sent back into html rendering as-they-are?
Alex brollo
Yes.
Thanks to IE, even comments can actually be treated as raw html and end up
executing scripts opening up XSS holes in the wiki.
--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://danielfriesen.name/]
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[Wikitech-l] Proposal: MediaWiki Group Surakarta
Hi, following the process for requesting the creation of a MediaWiki group, here is a proposal for MediaWiki Group Surakarta http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Solo Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki page. Thank you! PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals ___ Regards, benny ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On Tue, 2013-01-22 at 10:13 +0100, Nikola Smolenski wrote: A simple thing that could be done is to introduce localized captchas on non-Latin wikis (just remember that not everyone has the appropriate keyboard). For the records, this is covered in https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5309 andre -- Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
What do you mean by
any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
If your {{{author}}} doesn't have anything and it's aсceptable, then make
it {{{author|}}}, or {{#if:{{{author|}}}|span .}}. Please clarify the
statement above.
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com wrote:
I tried to build a template which wraps template parameters into data-
attributes. First results have been incouraging, then I find something
logical but unexpected, crushing the whole idea.
I wrote into the code of an infobox-like template something like this:
span data-author={{{author}}}
data-birthdate={{{birthDate}}}/span
and I very happily see that html code had my data wrapped into such span
tags.
But I was testing my code with clean templates, t.i.: templates which
have no wikicode into parameter values (as usually occurs into
it.wikisource). As soon as I tested my idea into another project (Commons)
I found that any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
So... I ask you again: is there any sound reason (i.e. safety related,or
server loading related ) reason to avoid that HTML comments, wrapped into
raw page wikicode are sent back into html rendering as-they-are?
Alex brollo
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--
З павагай,
Павел Селіцкас/Pavel Selitskas
Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects
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[Wikitech-l] Wiki GLAM Toolset
Hi all, As you might have heard Wikimedia Nederland, Wikimedia UK, Wikimedia France and Europeana are collaborating to provide a set of tools to get material from GLAM institutions onto Wikimedia Commons. The Wiki GLAM Toolset has to be created in a way that re-use can easily be tracked, and that Commons materials can easily be integrated back into the collection of the original GLAM. You can find more about the Wiki GLAM Toolset on our project page. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:GLAMToolset_project Currently we are looking for wiki-developers who can help us in this process, if you are interested please let us know. You can find more specific information about our needs on our discussion page http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:GLAMToolset_project/Outr eachSchedule . Cheers Geer Oskam http://www.europeana.eu/ www.europeana.eu http://www.europeana.eu Phone: +31 (0)70 31 40 972 Email: geer.os...@kb.nl Skype: GeerOskam Over 20 million cultural records for re-use via Europeana API: find out more and register for an API-key on http://bit.ly/Reuse_API http://bit.ly/Reuse_API Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake and delete this email from your system. P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki GLAM Toolset
On 01/22/2013 08:45 AM, Geer Oskam wrote: Hi all, As you might have heard Wikimedia Nederland, Wikimedia UK, Wikimedia France and Europeana are collaborating to provide a set of tools to get material from GLAM institutions onto Wikimedia Commons. The Wiki GLAM Toolset has to be created in a way that re-use can easily be tracked, and that Commons materials can easily be integrated back into the collection of the original GLAM. You can find more about the Wiki GLAM Toolset on our project page. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:GLAMToolset_project Currently we are looking for wiki-developers who can help us in this process, if you are interested please let us know. You can find more specific information about our needs on our discussion page http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:GLAMToolset_project/Outr eachSchedule . Cheers Geer Oskam http://www.europeana.eu/ www.europeana.eu http://www.europeana.eu Phone: +31 (0)70 31 40 972 Email: geer.os...@kb.nl Skype: GeerOskam Over 20 million cultural records for re-use via Europeana API: find out more and register for an API-key on http://bit.ly/Reuse_API http://bit.ly/Reuse_API Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake and delete this email from your system. P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail. I'm just going to go ahead and mention their needs here onlist. :-) The Europeana - Wiki GLAM Toolset is looking for developers who can help us: 1. developing with the mediawiki framework; specifically : a. extension development http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Developing_extensions I. hooks II. special pages III. api IV. database interaction 1. creating/modifying tables 2. crud functions b. content handler (optional) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mw:ContentHandler 2. working with github and git 3. using mediawiki's git-gerrit implementation (optional) 4. be familiar with agile development using scrum (optional) Please leave our senior developer Dan Entous a message! -- Sumana Harihareswara Engineering Community Manager Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] [test] style check on mediawiki/core
Hello, I have finally integrated PHP_CodeSniffer to report PHP style errors in MediaWiki core. PHP_CodeSniffer tokenises PHP and detects violations based on a set of coding standards. You can get it running on your local installation by following the very lame install guide I wrote at mw.org : https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Continuous_integration/PHP_CodeSniffer#installing Whenever a new patchset is uploaded in Gerrit, Jenkins will run phpcs on each file modified by the patchset and report the errors. The status points to the console for example: https://integration.mediawiki.org/ci/job/mediawiki-core-phpcs-HEAD/30/console From there click on the left on the Violations link to get a meaningful report and a details of violations per file. Ex: https://integration.mediawiki.org/ci/job/mediawiki-core-phpcs-HEAD/30/violations/file/maintenance/eval.php/? Don't worry, it is not going to block merge since the result status is actually ignored. The set of rules is in mediawiki/tools/codesniffer.git : https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/gitweb?p=mediawiki/tools/codesniffer.git Reference: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35588 -- Antoine hashar Musso ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 3:53 AM, Daniel Friesen
dan...@nadir-seen-fire.com wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:50:32 -0800, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com
wrote:
I tried to build a template which wraps template parameters into data-
attributes. First results have been incouraging, then I find something
logical but unexpected, crushing the whole idea.
I wrote into the code of an infobox-like template something like this:
span data-author={{{author}}}
data-birthdate={{{birthDate}}}/span
and I very happily see that html code had my data wrapped into such span
tags.
But I was testing my code with clean templates, t.i.: templates which
have no wikicode into parameter values (as usually occurs into
it.wikisource). As soon as I tested my idea into another project (Commons)
I found that any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present
into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
So... I ask you again: is there any sound reason (i.e. safety related,or
server loading related ) reason to avoid that HTML comments, wrapped into
raw page wikicode are sent back into html rendering as-they-are?
Alex brollo
Yes.
Thanks to IE, even comments can actually be treated as raw html and end up
executing scripts opening up XSS holes in the wiki.
Seconded. There is really no safe way to allow comments through.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
Per the previous comments in this post, anything over 1% precision should be regarded as failure, and our Fancy Captcha was at 25% a year ago. So yeah, approximately all, and our captcha is well known to actually suck. Maybe you'll just use recaptcha instead of fancycaptcha? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On 22 January 2013 17:37, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Per the previous comments in this post, anything over 1% precision should be regarded as failure, and our Fancy Captcha was at 25% a year ago. So yeah, approximately all, and our captcha is well known to actually suck. Maybe you'll just use recaptcha instead of fancycaptcha? The problem is that reCaptcha (a) used as a service, would pass private user data to a third party (b) is closed source, so we can' t just put up our own instance. Has anyone reimplemented it or any of it? There's piles of stuff on Wikisource we could feed it, for example. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:37 AM, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Maybe you'll just use recaptcha instead of fancycaptcha? /me gets popcorn to watch recaptcha flame war There has been discussion on this list in the past about the use of recaptcha, but it has generally ended in a down-vote because reCaptcha is not open source (even though it supports free culture) nor is it something we can host on our own servers. -- Arthur Richards Software Engineer, Mobile [[User:Awjrichards]] IRC: awjr +1-415-839-6885 x6687 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
The problem is that reCaptcha (a) used as a service, would pass private user data to a third party (b) is closed source, so we can' t just put up our own instance. Has anyone reimplemented it or any of it? There's piles of stuff on Wikisource we could feed it, for example. OK, then we can take KCaptcha and integrate it as an extension. It's russian project, I've used it many times. Seems to be rather strong. http://www.captcha.ru/en/kcaptcha/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
Even ignoring openness and privacy, exactly the same problems are present with reCAPTCHA as with Fancy Captcha. It's often very hard or impossible for humans to read, and is a big enough target to have been broken by various people. I don't know if it's constructive to brainstorm solutions to a problem before we measure the extent of the problem, but a viable compromise is very easy captchas. Spammers vary a great deal in sophistication but if we figure that any sophisticated enough to do any OCR are capable of finding and downloading existing public exploits of ours, then a block capital impact font captcha is equally easy for them, equally difficult for unsophisticated spammers and much easier for sighted humans. Luke On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Arthur Richards aricha...@wikimedia.orgwrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:37 AM, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Maybe you'll just use recaptcha instead of fancycaptcha? /me gets popcorn to watch recaptcha flame war There has been discussion on this list in the past about the use of recaptcha, but it has generally ended in a down-vote because reCaptcha is not open source (even though it supports free culture) nor is it something we can host on our own servers. -- Arthur Richards Software Engineer, Mobile [[User:Awjrichards]] IRC: awjr +1-415-839-6885 x6687 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On 21/01/13 08:04, Chris Grant wrote: Not sure about enwiki, but from my experience with hosting smaller wiki's CAPTCHA's are pretty useless (reCAPTCHA, FancyCAPTCHA, some custom ones). The spambots keep on flooding through. I've found its much more effective to just use the AbuseFilter. -- Chris ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l I've had a similar experience with what are probably similar projects. Abusefilter and phalanx do a lot more to actually block unwanted stuff than a simple captcha, and generally without disrupting good faith edits. Also have the option to give the users more information about what to do in fuzzier cases, and why they need to... it's rather helpful when set up properly. -- -— Isarra ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
Luke Welling WMF писал 2013-01-22 21:59: Even ignoring openness and privacy, exactly the same problems are present with reCAPTCHA as with Fancy Captcha. It's often very hard or impossible for humans to read, and is a big enough target to have been broken by various people. It's very good to discuss, but what are the other options to minimize spam? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
It's very good to discuss, but what are the other options to minimize spam? (maybe I know one: find XRumer authors and tear their arms off... :-)) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
Luke, sorry for reiterating, but «brainstorm solutions to a problem before we measure the extent of the problem» is wrong: it's already been measured by others, see the other posts... Nemo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
Our coding conventions for PHP are currently ambivalent on whether we should write if ( or if(. It's probably time to pick one. Discussion at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:Coding_conventions/PHP#Control_structures ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
On 2013-01-22 3:01 PM, Brad Jorsch bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: Our coding conventions for PHP are currently ambivalent on whether we should write if ( or if(. It's probably time to pick one. Discussion at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:Coding_conventions/PHP#Control_structures ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l For some reason I thought the spacy version was the convention. Guess its never really been specified. Also wasn't the stuff about efFuncName that I see in the current coding convention doc reverted out a while back for not being a real (recommended) convention? -bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
That was not the end of the problem I was referring to. We know our specific captcha is broken at turning away machines. As far as I am aware we do not know how many humans are being turned away by the difficulty of it. It's a safe bet that it is non-zero given the manual account requests we get, but given that we have people to do those kinds of experiments it would make sense to get a number from them before making any drastic decisions based on a reasonable gut feeling. I don't think anybody claims to have a perfect solution to the spam vs usability balancing act, so it's possible we'll try (and measure) a few approaches. Luke On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Luke, sorry for reiterating, but «brainstorm solutions to a problem before we measure the extent of the problem» is wrong: it's already been measured by others, see the other posts... Nemo __**_ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
I'd like to notify you that thanks to the generosity and cooperation if the previous owner, wikimania.org and wikimania.com are now owned by Wikimedia CH. The domain is currently set up in the same way as it was before but we have now the possibility tu use ssl.wikimania.org for the registrations and scholarship tools already hosted by Wikimedia CH. Regards, Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Luke Welling WMF lwell...@wikimedia.orgwrote: That was not the end of the problem I was referring to. We know our specific captcha is broken at turning away machines. As far as I am aware we do not know how many humans are being turned away by the difficulty of it. It's at least impossible for blind users to solve the captcha, without an audio captcha. (unless they manage to find the toolserver account creation thing and enough motivated to do that) I am not convinced of the benefits of captcha versus other spam filtering techniques. Cheers, Katie It's a safe bet that it is non-zero given the manual account requests we get, but given that we have people to do those kinds of experiments it would make sense to get a number from them before making any drastic decisions based on a reasonable gut feeling. I don't think anybody claims to have a perfect solution to the spam vs usability balancing act, so it's possible we'll try (and measure) a few approaches. Luke On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Luke, sorry for reiterating, but «brainstorm solutions to a problem before we measure the extent of the problem» is wrong: it's already been measured by others, see the other posts... Nemo __**_ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- @wikimediadc / @wikidata ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
Yeah, this has gotten pretty frustrating, because sometimes even in the same function different styles are used. We need to stick with one. I'd recommend using the spacey version, because we use the non-spacey version for function calls and definitions, so at least IMO it's a good way to distinguish control structures from functions. *--* *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015 Major in Computer Science www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:07 PM, bawolff bawolff...@gmail.com wrote: On 2013-01-22 3:01 PM, Brad Jorsch bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: Our coding conventions for PHP are currently ambivalent on whether we should write if ( or if(. It's probably time to pick one. Discussion at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:Coding_conventions/PHP#Control_structures ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l For some reason I thought the spacy version was the convention. Guess its never really been specified. Also wasn't the stuff about efFuncName that I see in the current coding convention doc reverted out a while back for not being a real (recommended) convention? -bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: I'd like to notify you that thanks to the generosity and cooperation if the previous owner, wikimania.org and wikimania.com are now owned by Wikimedia CH. The domain is currently set up in the same way as it was before but we have now the possibility tu use ssl.wikimania.org for the registrations and scholarship tools already hosted by Wikimedia CH. Are you interested in transferring the domain to the WMF which already has a SSL cluster and an established procedure for handling new ssl certificates? Thanks Leslie Regards, Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
Am 22.01.2013 20:42, schrieb Leslie Carr: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: I'd like to notify you that thanks to the generosity and cooperation if the previous owner, wikimania.org and wikimania.com are now owned by Wikimedia CH. The domain is currently set up in the same way as it was before but we have now the possibility tu use ssl.wikimania.org for the registrations and scholarship tools already hosted by Wikimedia CH. Are you interested in transferring the domain to the WMF which already has a SSL cluster and an established procedure for handling new ssl certificates? we can do so, when we have a proper concept how to bring this together with the tools hosted at WMCH server now. My original inquiry was to get ssl.wikimania.org from WMF which should point to the WMCH server. As the response was that we don't own that domain that was what I fixed first. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On 2013-01-22 3:30 PM, aude aude.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Luke Welling WMF lwell...@wikimedia.org wrote: That was not the end of the problem I was referring to. We know our specific captcha is broken at turning away machines. As far as I am aware we do not know how many humans are being turned away by the difficulty of it. It's at least impossible for blind users to solve the captcha, without an audio captcha. (unless they manage to find the toolserver account creation thing and enough motivated to do that) I am not convinced of the benefits of captcha versus other spam filtering techniques. Cheers, Katie Someone should write a browser addon to automatically decode and fill in captchas for blind users. (Only half joking) -bawolff __**_ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- @wikimediadc / @wikidata ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On code review
I liked the post, but I'm not sure what exactly we should change in our code reviews. Could you explain? On 01/21/2013 01:40 PM, Ori Livneh wrote: There's a useful blog post on code review at Mozilla by Mozilla developer David Humphrey on his blog: http://vocamus.net/dave/?p=1569. I like his breakdown of different types of code reviews. It seems like at Mozilla there is a lot of room for the patch submitter to indicate to reviewers what sort of review is needed for a particular patch, ranging from requests for manual testing and careful scrutiny all the way to what Humphrey calls catechism reviews, in which the committer uses a review request to announce her intent and solicit a basic sanity-check. Unofficially such reviews do not exist at the WMF because we are all infallibly meticulous and diligent about testing every branch of every code change. But unofficially they do, of course. It'd be nice if such reviews were formally sanctioned (with whatever qualifications). I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts. -- Ori Livneh ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
On 22 January 2013 19:44, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.chwrote: Am 22.01.2013 20:42, schrieb Leslie Carr: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: I'd like to notify you that thanks to the generosity and cooperation if the previous owner, wikimania.org and wikimania.com are now owned by Wikimedia CH. The domain is currently set up in the same way as it was before but we have now the possibility tu use ssl.wikimania.org for the registrations and scholarship tools already hosted by Wikimedia CH. Are you interested in transferring the domain to the WMF which already has a SSL cluster and an established procedure for handling new ssl certificates? we can do so, when we have a proper concept how to bring this together with the tools hosted at WMCH server now. My original inquiry was to get ssl.wikimania.org from WMF which should point to the WMCH server. As the response was that we don't own that domain that was what I fixed first. Were the domains not previously set to redirect to the latest wikimania wiki? -- Thehelpfulone http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
On Jan 23, 2013 8:09 AM, Thehelpfulone thehelpfulonew...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 January 2013 19:44, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: Am 22.01.2013 20:42, schrieb Leslie Carr: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: I'd like to notify you that thanks to the generosity and cooperation if the previous owner, wikimania.org and wikimania.com are now owned by Wikimedia CH. The domain is currently set up in the same way as it was before but we have now the possibility tu use ssl.wikimania.org for the registrations and scholarship tools already hosted by Wikimedia CH. Are you interested in transferring the domain to the WMF which already has a SSL cluster and an established procedure for handling new ssl certificates? we can do so, when we have a proper concept how to bring this together with the tools hosted at WMCH server now. My original inquiry was to get ssl.wikimania.org from WMF which should point to the WMCH server. As the response was that we don't own that domain that was what I fixed first. Were the domains not previously set to redirect to the latest wikimania wiki? They were. I hope that will be fixed quickly. -- John ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
I feel we should keep in line with the function calls. There are already way too many spaces as it is, and there is never a problem telling control structures apart - they are always followed by an indented block and most editors highlight them. I think if(), while(), foreach(), for() should all be without a space after keyword. Tyler Romeo tylerromeo at gmail.com writes: Yeah, this has gotten pretty frustrating, because sometimes even in the same function different styles are used. We need to stick with one. I'd recommend using the spacey version, because we use the non-spacey version for function calls and definitions, so at least IMO it's a good way to distinguish control structures from functions. *--* *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015 Major in Computer Science www.whizkidztech.com | tylerromeo at gmail.com On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:07 PM, bawolff bawolff+wn at gmail.com wrote: On 2013-01-22 3:01 PM, Brad Jorsch bjorsch at wikimedia.org wrote: Our coding conventions for PHP are currently ambivalent on whether we should write if ( or if(. It's probably time to pick one. Discussion at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:Coding_conventions/PHP#Control_struct ures ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l For some reason I thought the spacy version was the convention. Guess its never really been specified. Also wasn't the stuff about efFuncName that I see in the current coding convention doc reverted out a while back for not being a real (recommended) convention? -bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l at lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
2013/1/22 Paul Selitskas p.selits...@gmail.com
What do you mean by
any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
If your {{{author}}} doesn't have anything and it's aсceptable, then make
it {{{author|}}}, or {{#if:{{{author|}}}|span .}}. Please clarify the
statement above.
Imagine that my infobox had a parameter author=, and imagine a clean
content as this:
author=Alessandro Manzoni
With my template code:
span data-author={{{author}}}/span
I get into parsed html:
span data-author=Alessandro Manzoni/span
Perfect!
But imagine that my template parameter is:
author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]
When I pass the parameter content to span
data-author={{{author}}}/span, I dont' get into html page what I'll
like:
span data-author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]/span
since wikicode [[Alessandro Manzoni]] will be interpreted by the server,
and parsed/expanded into a html link as usual, resulting into a big mess.
The same occurs for any wikicode and/or html passed into a infobox template
parameter.
Alex brollo
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
Hey, I hereby admit defeat. My thread was clearly not the ultimate bikeshed. Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
Lmao. Honestly I don't care either way, and any attempt to make up reasons for one over the other is going to be insignificant. We just need to pick one and stick with it. If we can agree on one, I'll personally go through the entire codebase and change it. *--* *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015 Major in Computer Science www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroended...@gmail.comwrote: Hey, I hereby admit defeat. My thread was clearly not the ultimate bikeshed. Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Coding conventions
On 2013-01-22 6:05 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroended...@gmail.com wrote: Hey, I hereby admit defeat. My thread was clearly not the ultimate bikeshed. Cheers -- On this bikeshed, allowing both styles sounds perfectly acceptable to me. -bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
On 2013-01-22 6:03 PM, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com wrote:
2013/1/22 Paul Selitskas p.selits...@gmail.com
What do you mean by
any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed
and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
If your {{{author}}} doesn't have anything and it's aсceptable, then
make
it {{{author|}}}, or {{#if:{{{author|}}}|span .}}. Please clarify
the
statement above.
Imagine that my infobox had a parameter author=, and imagine a clean
content as this:
author=Alessandro Manzoni
With my template code:
span data-author={{{author}}}/span
I get into parsed html:
span data-author=Alessandro Manzoni/span
Perfect!
But imagine that my template parameter is:
author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]
When I pass the parameter content to span
data-author={{{author}}}/span, I dont' get into html page what I'll
like:
span data-author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]/span
since wikicode [[Alessandro Manzoni]] will be interpreted by the server,
and parsed/expanded into a html link as usual, resulting into a big mess.
The same occurs for any wikicode and/or html passed into a infobox
template
parameter.
Alex brollo
___
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Have you tried {{#tag:nowiki|{{{author} to prevent interpretation?
There may still be issues with quotes. Im not sure.
-bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
There will be no mess. You'll just get span data-author=[[Alessandro
Manzoni]]/span (did you even lift^Wtry, bro? :)), at least at Wikipedia
that is what I get. If it could pass raw HTML into attributes, you'd get a
huge hole for XSSploits lovers.
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:03 AM, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com wrote:
2013/1/22 Paul Selitskas p.selits...@gmail.com
What do you mean by
any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed
and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
If your {{{author}}} doesn't have anything and it's aсceptable, then make
it {{{author|}}}, or {{#if:{{{author|}}}|span .}}. Please clarify
the
statement above.
Imagine that my infobox had a parameter author=, and imagine a clean
content as this:
author=Alessandro Manzoni
With my template code:
span data-author={{{author}}}/span
I get into parsed html:
span data-author=Alessandro Manzoni/span
Perfect!
But imagine that my template parameter is:
author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]
When I pass the parameter content to span
data-author={{{author}}}/span, I dont' get into html page what I'll
like:
span data-author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]/span
since wikicode [[Alessandro Manzoni]] will be interpreted by the server,
and parsed/expanded into a html link as usual, resulting into a big mess.
The same occurs for any wikicode and/or html passed into a infobox template
parameter.
Alex brollo
___
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--
З павагай,
Павел Селіцкас/Pavel Selitskas
Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
It will just strip the whole attribute if there is a quote in. That is why
we have {{urlencode:{{{1}}}|WIKI}} (or any other mode).
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:18 AM, Bawolff Bawolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 2013-01-22 6:03 PM, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com wrote:
2013/1/22 Paul Selitskas p.selits...@gmail.com
What do you mean by
any wikicode (template call, parameter, link) present into
the value of infobox parameter breaks the stuff, since it is parsed
and
expanded by parser with unpredictable results.
If your {{{author}}} doesn't have anything and it's aсceptable, then
make
it {{{author|}}}, or {{#if:{{{author|}}}|span .}}. Please clarify
the
statement above.
Imagine that my infobox had a parameter author=, and imagine a clean
content as this:
author=Alessandro Manzoni
With my template code:
span data-author={{{author}}}/span
I get into parsed html:
span data-author=Alessandro Manzoni/span
Perfect!
But imagine that my template parameter is:
author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]
When I pass the parameter content to span
data-author={{{author}}}/span, I dont' get into html page what I'll
like:
span data-author=[[Alessandro Manzoni]]/span
since wikicode [[Alessandro Manzoni]] will be interpreted by the server,
and parsed/expanded into a html link as usual, resulting into a big mess.
The same occurs for any wikicode and/or html passed into a infobox
template
parameter.
Alex brollo
___
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Have you tried {{#tag:nowiki|{{{author} to prevent interpretation?
There may still be issues with quotes. Im not sure.
-bawolff
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--
З павагай,
Павел Селіцкас/Pavel Selitskas
Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
On 01/22/2013 05:24 PM, Paul Selitskas wrote:
It will just strip the whole attribute if there is a quote in. That is why
we have {{urlencode:{{{1}}}|WIKI}} (or any other mode).
URL-encoding is not the same as HTML-encoding for an attribute. I'm not
sure if we have a parser function for the latter, though.
Matt
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Re: [Wikitech-l] On code review
I think adding reviewers to commit messages would be a useful thing to do and I guess should be relatively easy? I think a form of tagging in gerrit would be highly useful. The thing I got from this article is sometimes it is useful to a potential code reviewer to get an idea of how much time they need to invest in a code review and how important it is compared to other patches. In the MobileFrontend project alone I could imagine the tags 'trivial', 'nicetohave', 'criticalbugfix' and 'currentiteration' would be useful to the team. It is sometimes hard to distinguish between experimental features we are playing with, things that need to be deployed asap and things that relate to our agile style of working which need more attention if they are to be completed before the end of an iterative cycle. Is there any such concept of tags in gerrit? It would be great to be able to get an idea about a patchset's importance before checking out the code and inspecting commits. On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Juliusz Gonera jgon...@wikimedia.org wrote: I liked the post, but I'm not sure what exactly we should change in our code reviews. Could you explain? On 01/21/2013 01:40 PM, Ori Livneh wrote: There's a useful blog post on code review at Mozilla by Mozilla developer David Humphrey on his blog: http://vocamus.net/dave/?p=1569. I like his breakdown of different types of code reviews. It seems like at Mozilla there is a lot of room for the patch submitter to indicate to reviewers what sort of review is needed for a particular patch, ranging from requests for manual testing and careful scrutiny all the way to what Humphrey calls catechism reviews, in which the committer uses a review request to announce her intent and solicit a basic sanity-check. Unofficially such reviews do not exist at the WMF because we are all infallibly meticulous and diligent about testing every branch of every code change. But unofficially they do, of course. It'd be nice if such reviews were formally sanctioned (with whatever qualifications). I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts. -- Ori Livneh ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Jon Robson http://jonrobson.me.uk @rakugojon ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
All, The switchover work is done. The site was was available to readers throughout the migration work though it was in read-only mode for about 32 minutes, when Asher and Mark had to migrate the database masters over from Tampa to Ashburn. We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Thank you all for your patience and understanding. Regards, CT Woo On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: All, We will be proceeding with the datacenter switchover plan this coming Tuesday (Jan 22, 2013), unless we discover some unexpected and insurmountable issues in our tests between now and then. During the 8-hour migration window on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th (from 17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours / 9am to 5pm PST), there would be times (lasting about 30 minutes) where the site would be set to read-only mode, to facilitate master database switchovers from one datacenter to another. While the site should be available to readers, no new contents could be created, edited or uploaded. We are aware of the inconvenience and we have put together plans to minimize such annoyances, e.g., automating much of the procedures, mitigating known risks, and performing tests to identify issues prior to deployment. Given the scale and complexity of this migration, we do realize not all operational impact is predictable. Some users could experience intermittent site unavailability and/or performance issues unfortunately. You can follow the migration on chat.freenode.nethttp://irc.freenode.net (and not irc.freenode.org as mentioned in previous email) in the #wikimedia-operations channel. Thanks, CT Woo -- Forwarded message -- From: Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:07 PM Subject: Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13 To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org, Development and Operations Engineers engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org All, The Migration team is in the last lap on completing the remaining tasks to ready our software stack and Ashburn infrastructure for the big switchover day. Per my last update,http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-October/063668.html with the Fundraising activity behind us now, the team has scheduled the *week of 22nd January*, 2013 to perform the switchover. We are going to block a 8-hour migration window on the *22nd, 23rd and 24**th*. During those periods, *17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours (9am to 5pm PST*), there will be intermittent blackouts and they will be treated as 'planned' outages. You can follow the migration on irc.freenode.org in the #wikimedia-operations channel. The team is putting the finishing touches to the last few tasks and we will make the final Go/No decision on 18th Jan, 2013. An update will send out then. For those interested in tracking the progress, the meeting notes are captured on this wikitech pagehttp://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Eqiad_Migration_Planning#Improving_Switchover . *Please note that we will be restricting code deployment during that week, allowing only emergency and critical ones only.* Thanks. CT Woo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: The switchover work is done. The site was was available to readers throughout the migration work though it was in read-only mode for about 32 minutes, when Asher and Mark had to migrate the database masters over from Tampa to Ashburn. We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Note that test.wikipedia.org is still in read-only mode https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44259. Folks needing a read/write test wiki may use test2.wikipedia.org for now, which runs on a different configuration. -- brion ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
Good work to everyone involved! -bawolff On 2013-01-22 6:53 PM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: All, The switchover work is done. The site was was available to readers throughout the migration work though it was in read-only mode for about 32 minutes, when Asher and Mark had to migrate the database masters over from Tampa to Ashburn. We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Thank you all for your patience and understanding. Regards, CT Woo On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: All, We will be proceeding with the datacenter switchover plan this coming Tuesday (Jan 22, 2013), unless we discover some unexpected and insurmountable issues in our tests between now and then. During the 8-hour migration window on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th (from 17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours / 9am to 5pm PST), there would be times (lasting about 30 minutes) where the site would be set to read-only mode, to facilitate master database switchovers from one datacenter to another. While the site should be available to readers, no new contents could be created, edited or uploaded. We are aware of the inconvenience and we have put together plans to minimize such annoyances, e.g., automating much of the procedures, mitigating known risks, and performing tests to identify issues prior to deployment. Given the scale and complexity of this migration, we do realize not all operational impact is predictable. Some users could experience intermittent site unavailability and/or performance issues unfortunately. You can follow the migration on chat.freenode.net http://irc.freenode.net (and not irc.freenode.org as mentioned in previous email) in the #wikimedia-operations channel. Thanks, CT Woo -- Forwarded message -- From: Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:07 PM Subject: Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13 To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org, Development and Operations Engineers engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org All, The Migration team is in the last lap on completing the remaining tasks to ready our software stack and Ashburn infrastructure for the big switchover day. Per my last update, http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-October/063668.html with the Fundraising activity behind us now, the team has scheduled the *week of 22nd January*, 2013 to perform the switchover. We are going to block a 8-hour migration window on the *22nd, 23rd and 24**th*. During those periods, *17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours (9am to 5pm PST*), there will be intermittent blackouts and they will be treated as 'planned' outages. You can follow the migration on irc.freenode.org in the #wikimedia-operations channel. The team is putting the finishing touches to the last few tasks and we will make the final Go/No decision on 18th Jan, 2013. An update will send out then. For those interested in tracking the progress, the meeting notes are captured on this wikitech page http://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Eqiad_Migration_Planning#Improving_Switchover . *Please note that we will be restricting code deployment during that week, allowing only emergency and critical ones only.* Thanks. CT Woo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
Wow, awesome, congratulations all! On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Does this mean the deployment freeze for the rest of the week has been thawed, or are deployments still on hold until next week? -- Arthur Richards Software Engineer, Mobile [[User:Awjrichards]] IRC: awjr +1-415-839-6885 x6687 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
Congrats, guys and gals. -- Ori Livneh On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Bawolff Bawolff wrote: Good work to everyone involved! -bawolff On 2013-01-22 6:53 PM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org (mailto:ct...@wikimedia.org) wrote: All, The switchover work is done. The site was was available to readers throughout the migration work though it was in read-only mode for about 32 minutes, when Asher and Mark had to migrate the database masters over from Tampa to Ashburn. We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Thank you all for your patience and understanding. Regards, CT Woo On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org (mailto:ct...@wikimedia.org) wrote: All, We will be proceeding with the datacenter switchover plan this coming Tuesday (Jan 22, 2013), unless we discover some unexpected and insurmountable issues in our tests between now and then. During the 8-hour migration window on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th (from 17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours / 9am to 5pm PST), there would be times (lasting about 30 minutes) where the site would be set to read-only mode, to facilitate master database switchovers from one datacenter to another. While the site should be available to readers, no new contents could be created, edited or uploaded. We are aware of the inconvenience and we have put together plans to minimize such annoyances, e.g., automating much of the procedures, mitigating known risks, and performing tests to identify issues prior to deployment. Given the scale and complexity of this migration, we do realize not all operational impact is predictable. Some users could experience intermittent site unavailability and/or performance issues unfortunately. You can follow the migration on chat.freenode.net (http://chat.freenode.net) http://irc.freenode.net (and not irc.freenode.org (http://irc.freenode.org) as mentioned in previous email) in the #wikimedia-operations channel. Thanks, CT Woo -- Forwarded message -- From: Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org (mailto:ct...@wikimedia.org) Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:07 PM Subject: Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13 To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org (mailto:wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org), Development and Operations Engineers engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org (mailto:engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org) All, The Migration team is in the last lap on completing the remaining tasks to ready our software stack and Ashburn infrastructure for the big switchover day. Per my last update, http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-October/063668.html with the Fundraising activity behind us now, the team has scheduled the *week of 22nd January*, 2013 to perform the switchover. We are going to block a 8-hour migration window on the *22nd, 23rd and 24**th*. During those periods, *17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours (9am to 5pm PST*), there will be intermittent blackouts and they will be treated as 'planned' outages. You can follow the migration on irc.freenode.org (http://irc.freenode.org) in the #wikimedia-operations channel. The team is putting the finishing touches to the last few tasks and we will make the final Go/No decision on 18th Jan, 2013. An update will send out then. For those interested in tracking the progress, the meeting notes are captured on this wikitech page http://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Eqiad_Migration_Planning#Improving_Switchover . *Please note that we will be restricting code deployment during that week, allowing only emergency and critical ones only.* Thanks. CT Woo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org (mailto:Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org (mailto:Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
2013/1/22 Paul Selitskas p.selits...@gmail.com
There will be no mess. You'll just get span data-author=[[Alessandro
Manzoni]]/span (did you even lift^Wtry, bro? :)), at least at Wikipedia
that is what I get. If it could pass raw HTML into attributes, you'd get a
huge hole for XSSploits lovers.
Your're right, I used a wrong example. I got troubles from html codes,
quotes and templates; not from links.
Well it seems that {{urlencode:{{{1|}}}|WIKI}} solves anything. Thanks.
I'll test it on our main infoboxes.
I apologyze for my question (perhaps not so deep).
Alex brollo
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
So seamless. Well done! --tomasz On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: All, The switchover work is done. The site was was available to readers throughout the migration work though it was in read-only mode for about 32 minutes, when Asher and Mark had to migrate the database masters over from Tampa to Ashburn. We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Thank you all for your patience and understanding. Regards, CT Woo On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: All, We will be proceeding with the datacenter switchover plan this coming Tuesday (Jan 22, 2013), unless we discover some unexpected and insurmountable issues in our tests between now and then. During the 8-hour migration window on the 22nd, 23rd and 24th (from 17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours / 9am to 5pm PST), there would be times (lasting about 30 minutes) where the site would be set to read-only mode, to facilitate master database switchovers from one datacenter to another. While the site should be available to readers, no new contents could be created, edited or uploaded. We are aware of the inconvenience and we have put together plans to minimize such annoyances, e.g., automating much of the procedures, mitigating known risks, and performing tests to identify issues prior to deployment. Given the scale and complexity of this migration, we do realize not all operational impact is predictable. Some users could experience intermittent site unavailability and/or performance issues unfortunately. You can follow the migration on chat.freenode.nethttp://irc.freenode.net (and not irc.freenode.org as mentioned in previous email) in the #wikimedia-operations channel. Thanks, CT Woo -- Forwarded message -- From: Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:07 PM Subject: Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13 To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org, Development and Operations Engineers engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org All, The Migration team is in the last lap on completing the remaining tasks to ready our software stack and Ashburn infrastructure for the big switchover day. Per my last update,http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-October/063668.html with the Fundraising activity behind us now, the team has scheduled the *week of 22nd January*, 2013 to perform the switchover. We are going to block a 8-hour migration window on the *22nd, 23rd and 24**th*. During those periods, *17:00 UTC to 01:00 UTC hours (9am to 5pm PST*), there will be intermittent blackouts and they will be treated as 'planned' outages. You can follow the migration on irc.freenode.org in the #wikimedia-operations channel. The team is putting the finishing touches to the last few tasks and we will make the final Go/No decision on 18th Jan, 2013. An update will send out then. For those interested in tracking the progress, the meeting notes are captured on this wikitech pagehttp://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Eqiad_Migration_Planning#Improving_Switchover . *Please note that we will be restricting code deployment during that week, allowing only emergency and critical ones only.* Thanks. CT Woo ___ Engineering mailing list engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
Filed a bug report: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44262.
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:34 AM, Matthew Flaschen
mflasc...@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On 01/22/2013 05:24 PM, Paul Selitskas wrote:
It will just strip the whole attribute if there is a quote in. That is
why
we have {{urlencode:{{{1}}}|WIKI}} (or any other mode).
URL-encoding is not the same as HTML-encoding for an attribute. I'm not
sure if we have a parser function for the latter, though.
Matt
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--
З павагай,
Павел Селіцкас/Pavel Selitskas
Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
On 01/22/2013 07:52 PM, Paul Selitskas wrote:
Filed a bug report: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44262.
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:34 AM, Matthew Flaschen
mflasc...@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On 01/22/2013 05:24 PM, Paul Selitskas wrote:
It will just strip the whole attribute if there is a quote in. That is
why
we have {{urlencode:{{{1}}}|WIKI}} (or any other mode).
URL-encoding is not the same as HTML-encoding for an attribute. I'm not
sure if we have a parser function for the latter, though.
Thanks. I CCed Chris Steipp, the security guy, since this was one of
the topics he covered in a recent documentation sprint.
Matt Flaschen
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Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: They were. I hope that will be fixed quickly. The easiest way to do that would be to redirect them to wikimania.wikimedia.org, which already redirects to the proper year through Wikimedia's redirects.conf. -- Casey Brown (Cbrown1023) caseybrown.org ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Html comments into raw wiki code: can they be wrapped into parsed html?
On 30/12/12 08:23, Alex Brollo wrote: I'd like to use html comment into raw wiki text, to use them as effective, server-unexpensive data containers that could be read and parsed by a js script in view mode. But I see that html comment, written into raw wiki text, are stripped away by parsing routines. I can access to raw code of current page in view mode by js with a index.php or an api.php call, and I do, but this is much more server-expensive IMHO. Is there any sound reason to strip html comments away? If there is no sound reason, could such a stripping be avoided? They're stripped by the preprocessor because otherwise, all the parser functions break. In pre-save-transform mode, there is no choice but to preserve comments, so the parser functions do actually break. But that's less visible than what would happen if you omitted comment stripping in HTML mode. It would be easy enough to sanitize HTML comments so that they don't cause XSS vulnerabilities, that's not the issue. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 3:53 AM, Bawolff Bawolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: Someone should write a browser addon to automatically decode and fill in captchas for blind users. (Only half joking) Don't joke, I have a blind relative who's screen reader does just that (simple captchas only). There are other services like http://www.azavia.com/zcaptcha which is specifically for the blind, but hell its probably cheaper to use the same captcha reading services that the spammers do. -- Chris On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 3:53 AM, Bawolff Bawolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: On 2013-01-22 3:30 PM, aude aude.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Luke Welling WMF lwell...@wikimedia.org wrote: That was not the end of the problem I was referring to. We know our specific captcha is broken at turning away machines. As far as I am aware we do not know how many humans are being turned away by the difficulty of it. It's at least impossible for blind users to solve the captcha, without an audio captcha. (unless they manage to find the toolserver account creation thing and enough motivated to do that) I am not convinced of the benefits of captcha versus other spam filtering techniques. Cheers, Katie Someone should write a browser addon to automatically decode and fill in captchas for blind users. (Only half joking) -bawolff __**_ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- @wikimediadc / @wikidata ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
Well done, very pleased to see that the careful planning paid off so well. I raise a glass in honour of those who worked so hard to make this an almost invisible operation. Risker On 22 January 2013 19:04, Tomasz Finc tf...@wikimedia.org wrote: So seamless. Well done! --tomasz On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Ct Woo ct...@wikimedia.org wrote: All, The switchover work is done. The site was was available to readers throughout the migration work though it was in read-only mode for about 32 minutes, when Asher and Mark had to migrate the database masters over from Tampa to Ashburn. We will cancel the reminding maintenance windows. Thank you all for your patience and understanding. Regards, CT Woo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Completed ! Re: More Update on Ashburn data center switchover / migration – target date is week of 1/22/13
On 23/01/13 10:05, Brion Vibber wrote: Note that test.wikipedia.org is still in read-only mode https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44259. Fixed. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On code review
I agree with the reviewers thing. Because then it gets put on the record as to who supported/had a problem with the commit. *--* *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015 Major in Computer Science www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jon Robson jdlrob...@gmail.com wrote: I think adding reviewers to commit messages would be a useful thing to do and I guess should be relatively easy? I think a form of tagging in gerrit would be highly useful. The thing I got from this article is sometimes it is useful to a potential code reviewer to get an idea of how much time they need to invest in a code review and how important it is compared to other patches. In the MobileFrontend project alone I could imagine the tags 'trivial', 'nicetohave', 'criticalbugfix' and 'currentiteration' would be useful to the team. It is sometimes hard to distinguish between experimental features we are playing with, things that need to be deployed asap and things that relate to our agile style of working which need more attention if they are to be completed before the end of an iterative cycle. Is there any such concept of tags in gerrit? It would be great to be able to get an idea about a patchset's importance before checking out the code and inspecting commits. On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Juliusz Gonera jgon...@wikimedia.org wrote: I liked the post, but I'm not sure what exactly we should change in our code reviews. Could you explain? On 01/21/2013 01:40 PM, Ori Livneh wrote: There's a useful blog post on code review at Mozilla by Mozilla developer David Humphrey on his blog: http://vocamus.net/dave/?p=1569. I like his breakdown of different types of code reviews. It seems like at Mozilla there is a lot of room for the patch submitter to indicate to reviewers what sort of review is needed for a particular patch, ranging from requests for manual testing and careful scrutiny all the way to what Humphrey calls catechism reviews, in which the committer uses a review request to announce her intent and solicit a basic sanity-check. Unofficially such reviews do not exist at the WMF because we are all infallibly meticulous and diligent about testing every branch of every code change. But unofficially they do, of course. It'd be nice if such reviews were formally sanctioned (with whatever qualifications). I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts. -- Ori Livneh ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Jon Robson http://jonrobson.me.uk @rakugojon ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites?
There is a Firefox extension to get past the captchas... -- Forwarded message -- From: Graham Pearce graha...@jazi.net Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:41 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites? To: John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com Yes, I have. There isn't an essay about it as such, but in this edit to the help page about using JAWS: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Using_JAWSdiff=32016oldid=320037024 I offered to help people use WebVisum, a Firefox extension to get past the captchas: http://webvisum.com It's an invite-only system. Nobody took up my offer, but I notice now that there's a page to request invitations: http://www.webvisum.com/en/main/invitationrequest So maybe it's not so necessary ... Feel free to pass this reply on to whoever you like. Graham On 23/01/2013 12:07 PM, John Vandenberg wrote: Have you heard about this? is there a wiki essay about this accessibility problem? -- Forwarded message -- From: Chris Grant chrisgrantm...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Why are we still using captchas on WMF sites? To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 3:53 AM, Bawolff Bawolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: Someone should write a browser addon to automatically decode and fill in captchas for blind users. (Only half joking) Don't joke, I have a blind relative who's screen reader does just that (simple captchas only). There are other services like http://www.azavia.com/zcaptcha which is specifically for the blind, but hell its probably cheaper to use the same captcha reading services that the spammers do. -- Chris On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 3:53 AM, Bawolff Bawolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: On 2013-01-22 3:30 PM, aude aude.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Luke Welling WMF lwell...@wikimedia.org wrote: That was not the end of the problem I was referring to. We know our specific captcha is broken at turning away machines. As far as I am aware we do not know how many humans are being turned away by the difficulty of it. It's at least impossible for blind users to solve the captcha, without an audio captcha. (unless they manage to find the toolserver account creation thing and enough motivated to do that) I am not convinced of the benefits of captcha versus other spam filtering techniques. Cheers, Katie Someone should write a browser addon to automatically decode and fill in captchas for blind users. (Only half joking) -bawolff __**_ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- @wikimediadc / @wikidata ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
Am 22.01.2013 22:14, schrieb John Vandenberg: Were the domains not previously set to redirect to the latest wikimania wiki? They were. I hope that will be fixed quickly. That has been done beforehand already, so the transfer of the domains was transparent to the users. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] SSL certificate
Am 23.01.2013 02:12, schrieb Casey Brown: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:14 PM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: They were. I hope that will be fixed quickly. The easiest way to do that would be to redirect them to wikimania.wikimedia.org, which already redirects to the proper year through Wikimedia's redirects.conf. thanks for the hint - I have now changed the redirect target from wikimania2013.wikimedia.org to wikimania.wikimedia.org on both domains. I think it would make sense to point the domain itself directly to the WMF servers and have the Wikimania website running under wikimania.org directly, with a host ssl.wikimania.org pointing to the WMCH server and wikimania(.)*.wikimedia.org redirecting to wikimania.org. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
