Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Dateline NBC Special on TowerDogs
80 cents on the dollar for me in southern Indiana. Dave Bob Moldashel wrote: Can't be any worse than it is right now.like $104 per $100 of salary in NY -B- On 7/18/08 12:19 AM, Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: according to figures cited by OSHA, these so-called tower dogs have the highest death rate per capita of any occupation in the country OUCH!!! I can just feel the impact on worker's compensation classification ratings already! -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.2/1561 - Release Date: 7/18/2008 6:35 PM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] 900 MHz Integrated Antenna Enclosure
I've seen one by PacWireless and one by MTI. Does anyone know of one with greater gain than 12.5 dBi? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Integrated Antenna Enclosure
* Mike Hammett wrote, On 7/19/2008 12:40 PM: I've seen one by PacWireless and one by MTI. Does anyone know of one with greater gain than 12.5 dBi? Hi Mike...ArC Wireless has some...we use them and are good Titan Wireless carriers them. take care leon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
And these are as robust and immune from interference as Canopy? C'mon Chuck...you know better =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Alvy? Put it this way...do you want to pay $1000 for a CPE, or $200-300 for a CPE? That said, it's worth noting that not all down-converted / hacked 802.11x are created equal Case in point...compare manufacturers who have done more work on their system (getting into the PHY / rewriting or adding/subtracting certain things in the MAC) -- perhaps adding in their own front-end, etc Trango Alvarion RedLine Ligowave (some of their new stuff) Vs. guys who are working at the HAL in the MAC Mikrotik NStream StarOS tweaks Proxim WORP Vs. guys who are just throwing 802.11 inside an outdoor box and tweaking a few things like time-outs or acks Tranzeo Deliberant Ubiquiti In some cases...especially in category 1, the system can be made to be equal to or superior to the capabilities of what a WiMAX system can offer to a WISP deploying last mile in the US...keep in mind, although the WiMAX 802.16d spec offers a lot of cool things, keep in mind, it was designed for low-medium bandwidth replacement of phone lines in licensed / developing countries, and there are a few things about that that don't quite fit the high bandwidth and high noise unlicensed or quasi-coordinated WISP-deployment model of the US... Ultimately, the issue is one of size and uncertainty...say I'm a product manufacturer for xyz radio infrastructure company, and I have some chunk of $$$ to put into designing a product for a specific market...from a bang-for-buck perspective, it's a lot easier to build a system for Wadeem Telecom in Pakistan who's willing to put a PO together for a bizzilion units to replace crappy POTs line and to offer 64k service than to build for a fragmented market of 5000-1 of which we're not quite sure if it really exists That said, another by-product of good PR from WISPA is that it creates awareness from vendors -- while it's fun to abuse them for causing all the problems in the world, the truth of the matter is vendors play an important part in bringing the solutions that will help you innovate and grow your business. -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Tom, Although hardware is a portion of any product investment...more importantly, the high costs that you see up-front have to do with the expected amortization of RD For example...one may ask, why are WiMAX basestations 3-8x the cost of a proprietary base station Well, in the international market, where WiMAX is basically being used to deliver BE type service (crappy last-mile connectivity to places that have nothing), nifty QoS features aren't really that important, and the manufacturers lose the ability to vendor lock operators into their platform due to the fact that the operator truly could care less about the ability to do nRPT, UGS, or resizing his OFDM symbol slots, blah blah blah... To add fuel to the fire here, since we're generally talking relatively low bandwidth requirements on a CPE...Keep in mind, the vast majority of WiMAX deployments have been in underserved 3rd world / developing countries, where it's possible to over-subscribe a 10 Mb AP 500:1 or even higher due to the fact that the subscriber plans being sold average ~64 kb. In the scenario where the operator is buying lots and lots of CPE, his sensitivity to CPE pricing increases in that market, due to the plethora of cheap CPE / SU manufacturers on the market, the manufacturer either will 1. Sell the base station and miss out on CPE sales 2. Sell the base station but be forced to discount CPE at or below cost to hold onto CPE sales The premium manufacturer has to make his money on the base station, b/c he isn't making anything on the CPE On the contrary, in the US market, due to a wide variety of cheap crappy solutions on the market today and the plethora of landline broadband options, for most of the market, WiMAX doesn't really have a HUGE role in the residential / SOHO access market... That said, the thrill of WiMAX in the market is more likely caused by the availability of quasi-coordinated high-power point-to-multipoint spectrum in the 3.65 GHz band. In this scenario, I like to compare the excitement of the 3.65 GHz band of today to the excitement of the 5 GHz band back in 2002 when everyone was still using 2.4 GHz for last-mile access. Both bands generally hit the market as a fresh solution for backhaul and/or premium-class business access... The characteristics of this type of a market is a lot different than that of the residential cheap-crappy access market...namely caused by lower CPE deployment density...as a result, the operators are generally 1. Less sensitive to CPE prices 2. Less sensitive to vendor lock from proprietary systems To sum, the current mindset of the manufacturer is as follows (keep in mind, this is being influenced by their involvement in the international market) I need to sell my AP for $10k b/c I'm either going to lose CPE sales or have to sell them near my cost (b/c today, I have to get to $300 / CPE and by next year, I have to get to $200 / CPE) My counterargument here would be this Sell you AP for $3k, b/c operators will have to buy your AP for its QoS / premium features -- and the very nature of those QoS / premium features will lock the customers into using your CPE...since they will be used for either backhaul or high-value business customers, while it'd be nice to have a $200 CPE...if the system does things (like VoIP prioritization, high pps services, MPLS, psuedowire support) that a $200 Canopy / Tranzeo / Alvarion / Trango / whatever won't support, the operators won't mind paying $400-600 for that CPE because they will not have the ability to charge $400-800 / month ARPUs with that product -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Great post.Charles. What I find funny is The primary WiMax vendors, (Alvarion, redline, airspan, Aperto, etc) were always the Vendors that tried to sell their Non-Wimax grear for $10,000 an AP before WImax came to play. (For example: Alvarion still trying to sell unlicensed VL AUs for $6k and 54mb SUs for $1.5k ) The question I pose is... What is the driving force to price? Is Wimax expensive? Or is it the system manufactures that impose the expensive? Is WiMax just a buzzward excuse, to help justify why they can try to get the price they want? I argue that there is not anything functional about WiMax that makes it more costly to product. Any arguement to justify why it is expensive, is a load of Crxp. It doesn't have to be. (Actually, it does take significantly more processing power, so those 386-100Mhz SBCs are a thing of the past, but proportionally the SBCs and Chips with fast enough processing power, are inexpensive today.). I thought it rather interesting to see the N/MIMO mpci
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Wu-WU Special? Or the Mr. That Said Special? Hehe... Maybe it's a subliminal message to get you to contact me off list =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
I'd love to know more about WiMAX, but I seem to get one extreme or the other from those I talk to -- it either solves world hunger, or it's a giant piece of crap. Neither of the above statement have merit Which reminds me of an interesting insight I've learned on the role of subject matter experts and intelligence You only need to know 1% more than the guy you're talking to to be considered a genius, b/c he cannot fathom whether you truly only know 1% more, or if you are Albert Einstein The beauty of all of this is that it's very easy in these scenarios to obfuscate the truth with the facts Oh wait, that's called Marketing =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogelio Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 5:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles Wu wrote: Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter What I find most interesting in the wireless space is the fact that the most wireless savvy people I know roll their eyes when WiMAX is mentioned. I'm not sure the reasons for this, but it seems to do with the over hyped expectations, as well as the fact that WiMAX really works only for those people who (a) have already bought spectrum rights, (b) are willing to buy a bunch of other equipment, (c) or have situations where the unlicensed spectrum is already too crowded. Obviously there has got to be a happy medium (a giant piece of crap that solves world hunger, perhaps?) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Iirc, there where plans for a mm2 and mm9 series... gino -Original Message- From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:51 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems )
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Their 45 has promise. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability,
[WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration
How much foliage penetration should I expect from a 900 MHz system? I'm looking at an area which has 30' - 50' thick tree lines every 1/2 to 1.5 miles. I'm looking at 13 dBi sector with an approx 24 dB radio (figure a dB or two for cable loss). For CPE I'm looking at 13 - 15 dB CPE antenna (the 18 dB was just too big and expensive) with 20 - 24 dB radios. Looking at the XR9 radios. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Their 45 has promise. Chuck, if you're talking about their high-bandwidth multipoint 5 GHz product, it was recently halted / stalled / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
No, the point to point. - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Their 45 has promise. Chuck, if you're talking about their high-bandwidth multipoint 5 GHz product, it was recently halted / stalled / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario:
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
CopperCom... Hmmm. Taqua is still around and strong. I have a story to tell you about Taqua someday. Motorola: There still is no SM left behind. The 400 is a totally different product line. But they are still coming out with new Canopy products. The line may bifurcate, but they are still true to the no sm left behind mantra. At least for the time being. - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
No, the point to point. It is a decent product, as long as you don't need it to support high pps and can deal with occasional instability with certain types of traffic Here, IMO, is a more promising (and cheaper) product Here's comments from a customer's testing experience (this one had come along because the Atlas PtP didn't properly support the pps load from running pseudowire) -- Subject: [WISPA] LigoWave proprietary PtP (was Re: Radio Vendor Suggestions) Our office is in the same city, so we have been able to test their new proprietary PtP radios quite extensively. We don't test for raw throughput; we focus on consistent payload with low latency, low jitter and the ability to handle a lot of PPS. While I don't claim to no the limits of their radios, I can tell you that we setup an emulated DS1 (CESoPSN) through their radios with a testset running quasi. The test completed without errors during a 30min run. The test subjected to the radios to 2000pps aggregate with an IP payload size of 192k. Latency was as expected given the distance we were testing (1 mile) and jitter averaged 0.7ms. The performance was in excess of what we have seen with 802.11a-based radios, which I believe speaks positively to the MAC changes they made. Again, we didn't test to see what they were capable of; only that they would meet our minimum requirements, which many radios do not. -- Oh, did I mention they're working on developing a Scheduled MAC to implement in a multipoint application? -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Their 45 has promise. Chuck, if you're talking about their high-bandwidth multipoint 5 GHz product, it was recently halted / stalled / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Yes, I have regretfully dealt with CopperCom. T.38 was broken on this and their stance was, No one else has this problem, too bad. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a "few" of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a "longer-term" view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got "left behind" with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
I have been on both ends of this as a manufacturer. I made airborne PBX systems that were installed in the avionics bay of head-of-state, military command and control and corporate fleet aircraft. Almost got airforce1. (I could only do 48 phones and they needed more!) I was very proud of that product line and made good money. We had one point of distribution and installation. But I will take our current situation of a half dozen distributors selling to hundreds of customers a product line that has a couple of dozen low cost items any day. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per
Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration
My experience is that you'll get around 500 feet of solid foliage. If you're trying to go 5 miles, you have to get the antennas WAY up in the air, or you get serious Fresnel zone losses. This means that 900 mhz is actually somewhat limited to smaller cells than you'd think otherwise. Yes, I've gotten through a 1/4 mile of trees, but that quarter mile of trees had the cpe antenna on one side, a canyon on the other, with the base station at the far side of the canyon.On the otherh and, I have a client at .7 miles from the AP, and it picks up both the AP at .7 miles and one almost 20 miles away at the same RSSI, because there's fresnel zone encroachment between the AP and the client. I tried in town, and found that 3 city blocks was the limit for a low mounted AP antenna. I could pick it up 3 miles away, at -90 but RSSI didn't really improve or association until I got to around 3 blocks, where the signal was -85. At 4 blocks, it was still -90. In other words, this stuff spreads as low level noise one heck of a long ways. We also found that diffraction was going on strangely and that RSSI was often higher pointed somewhere OTHER than the exact direction of the AP when the terrain was mountainous. And, under those conditions, extremely variable, as in '75 one moment and -91 30 seconds later. I find that rain changes the RSSI when going through foliage, and not insignifcant amounts, either. Snow improved it, rain reduced it. Can't explain why. However, when 2.4 wouldn't even be seen due to trees/foliage, 900 mhz has worked very well. Again, distances tend to be limited not as much by foliage, but by fresnel issues. Also, I find 900 mhz interference to be common in the middle absolutely NOWHERE, as well as in town. Utilities, government, farmers, even homeowners with 900 mhz phones will cause you grief. The good news, is that XR9's and Star-OS, at least, get you pretty darn good throughput for a 5 mhz channel. Just keep the RSSI up and the rates will run 36 - 54 and you can feed several 2 mbit customers without them ever impacting each other signifcantly. XR9's have modular FCC approval and either make it visible by use a clear lid (like I do) or tag the box with contains FCC ID blah blah inside. XR9's also perform MUCH better than SR9's do. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration How much foliage penetration should I expect from a 900 MHz system? I'm looking at an area which has 30' - 50' thick tree lines every 1/2 to 1.5 miles. I'm looking at 13 dBi sector with an approx 24 dB radio (figure a dB or two for cable loss). For CPE I'm looking at 13 - 15 dB CPE antenna (the 18 dB was just too big and expensive) with 20 - 24 dB radios. Looking at the XR9 radios. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Travis, I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola Canopy) in the last-mile access space However, neither you nor I run Trango If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now That said, you've started building out your network with different access solutions, and we're doing other stuff It looks like we've both moved on... -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Chuck, I would argue that it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison for you, due to the fact that you're just selling a passive plastic or metal device that really doesn't go bad (I know there's always exceptions...) Over the years, unless something arrived damaged in shipping, we have probably gotten a total of 3 valid returns for defective antenna / mount hardware out of hundreds of thousands sold On the contrary, getting into CPE devices, where manufacturers are trying to get to that price equilibrium between cheap and carrier-grade, depending on the brand, we'll see RMA/return rates as high as 10% -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents I have been on both ends of this as a manufacturer. I made airborne PBX systems that were installed in the avionics bay of head-of-state, military command and control and corporate fleet aircraft. Almost got airforce1. (I could only do 48 phones and they needed more!) I was very proud of that product line and made good money. We had one point of distribution and installation. But I will take our current situation of a half dozen distributors selling to hundreds of customers a product line that has a couple of dozen low cost items any day. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote:
Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration
Mike, Take a look at tranzeofaq.com. I have a pretty good example of a 2.75 mile shot through trees with 6mbps throughput. ryan On Jul 19, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: How much foliage penetration should I expect from a 900 MHz system? I'm looking at an area which has 30' - 50' thick tree lines every 1/2 to 1.5 miles. I'm looking at 13 dBi sector with an approx 24 dB radio (figure a dB or two for cable loss). For CPE I'm looking at 13 - 15 dB CPE antenna (the 18 dB was just too big and expensive) with 20 - 24 dB radios. Looking at the XR9 radios. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration
Is that elevation at the bottom? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: D. Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration Mike, Take a look at tranzeofaq.com. I have a pretty good example of a 2.75 mile shot through trees with 6mbps throughput. ryan On Jul 19, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: How much foliage penetration should I expect from a 900 MHz system? I'm looking at an area which has 30' - 50' thick tree lines every 1/2 to 1.5 miles. I'm looking at 13 dBi sector with an approx 24 dB radio (figure a dB or two for cable loss). For CPE I'm looking at 13 - 15 dB CPE antenna (the 18 dB was just too big and expensive) with 20 - 24 dB radios. Looking at the XR9 radios. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration
Yes. ryan On Jul 19, 2008, at 8:39 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Is that elevation at the bottom? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: D. Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Foliage Penetration Mike, Take a look at tranzeofaq.com. I have a pretty good example of a 2.75 mile shot through trees with 6mbps throughput. ryan On Jul 19, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: How much foliage penetration should I expect from a 900 MHz system? I'm looking at an area which has 30' - 50' thick tree lines every 1/2 to 1.5 miles. I'm looking at 13 dBi sector with an approx 24 dB radio (figure a dB or two for cable loss). For CPE I'm looking at 13 - 15 dB CPE antenna (the 18 dB was just too big and expensive) with 20 - 24 dB radios. Looking at the XR9 radios. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Hi Travis, I'm with you - the Nanostations are a pretty amazing product. I've been deploying Nanostations on 10mhz channels in 2.4 and 5ghz with StarOS access points and the performance/interference resistance is pretty amazing at ANY price point. I could say the same thing for the newer Tranzeo CPE units as well, but they can't match up with the Ubiquity price point just yet. It is neat to see a product with many of the Canopy advantages (rich features, small footprint, inexpensive to produce, good interference resistance) that is compatible with the 802.11a/b/g standards and thus able to take advantage of the very innovative Mikrotik and StarOS platforms. I'm curious to see if someone comes up with a good reflector for the Nanostation radios. That would enable the use of the adaptive antenna mode, and since StarOS has the ability to switch connectors on the fly - and potentially polarity if hooked up to a dual-pol antenna - you would end up with a standards based product that would have nearly every feature that the Trangos had that made them special (noise threshold at the AP, software switchable polarity, site survey, etc). No polling, but that is one of the most overrated features anyway. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I would agree... I think there is an opportunity as well. There are some new products in the market recently (Ubiquiti Nanostation) that could shake things up a little. Getting an FCC product with PoE and a Ubiquiti quality radio for $79 is pretty amazing (I will be testing some this coming week). It really makes you wonder how much money some of these companies can really have into a radio system (Trango, Canopy, etc.) when Ubiquiti can sell a brand new product for $79 MSRP. Granted there are not a lot of bells and whistles, but honestly most of the WISP's out there don't need that. If you can buy a radio for $79, you can put whatever you need behind it (Cisco, Mikrotik, etc.) and still be less than $200 for a nice CPE. I think Trango's first mistake was the mesh game they played for a year. Then when they decide to get back into the game, they promise a product that seems too good to be true... and now it turns out, it was. So, they are now 2+ years behind everyone else in the RD world, and they are losing customers left and right. The licensed market may help get them by for a while, but I don't think that is enough business to sustain the company forever. Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola Canopy) in the last-mile access space However, neither you nor I run Trango If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now That said, you've started building out your network with different access solutions, and we're doing other stuff It looks like we've both moved on... -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Just what we need.
Why not? Isn't that kinda what Cable Cos and ILECs Do? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Just what we need. The power company wants to take rate payer money and build a broadband network that will contact each meter for the purpose of managing energy. It will also supply broadband to the homeowner if they want. This should not be allowed. - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Just what we need. Chuck McCown wrote: Time to speak up. Anyone care to translate this for those among us who don't speak lawyerese, and who don't live/work in Indiana? David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Nanostations
Matt, I agree with almost everything you said... except the polling part. Having a robust, efficient polling system is the best thing available for outdoor wireless. That is one of the main reasons we are now using Mikrotik is because of their Nstreme and polling system. We are finding now it's not the same quality as Trango's polling, but it does work. How else do you keep a single customer from taking down an entire AP with a large upload (usually from an infection, virus, worm, etc.)? I have tested this over and over and over, and every time I come back to the same conclusion... you have to have a polling system to control the upload, otherwise the customer with the best signal dominates the AP (on the upload side). Here is a very simple test... set up an AP with two connected clients without polling. Start an upload on one client and then try doing a download or even a ping from the 2nd client. My tests show the download and/or ping to be very unreliable and very sporadic. Now, if you turn polling on and do the same test, everything works fine while the upload is running and the 2nd client can't even tell there is an upload running. What we really need is the Nanostation-ROS... a Nanostation running Mikrotik (even for $50 more per unit)... that would be the killer CPE... I would place an order for 500 right now today. :) Travis Microserv Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hi Travis, I'm with you - the Nanostations are a pretty amazing product. I've been deploying Nanostations on 10mhz channels in 2.4 and 5ghz with StarOS access points and the performance/interference resistance is pretty amazing at ANY price point. I could say the same thing for the newer Tranzeo CPE units as well, but they can't match up with the Ubiquity price point just yet. It is neat to see a product with many of the Canopy advantages (rich features, small footprint, inexpensive to produce, good interference resistance) that is compatible with the 802.11a/b/g standards and thus able to take advantage of the very innovative Mikrotik and StarOS platforms. I'm curious to see if someone comes up with a good reflector for the Nanostation radios. That would enable the use of the adaptive antenna mode, and since StarOS has the ability to switch connectors on the fly - and potentially polarity if hooked up to a dual-pol antenna - you would end up with a standards based product that would have nearly every feature that the Trangos had that made them special (noise threshold at the AP, software switchable polarity, site survey, etc). No polling, but that is one of the most overrated features anyway. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I would agree... I think there is an opportunity as well. There are some new products in the market recently (Ubiquiti Nanostation) that could shake things up a little. Getting an FCC product with PoE and a Ubiquiti quality radio for $79 is pretty amazing (I will be testing some this coming week). It really makes you wonder how much money some of these companies can really have into a radio system (Trango, Canopy, etc.) when Ubiquiti can sell a brand new product for $79 MSRP. Granted there are not a lot of "bells and whistles", but honestly most of the WISP's out there don't need that. If you can buy a radio for $79, you can put whatever you need behind it (Cisco, Mikrotik, etc.) and still be less than $200 for a nice CPE. I think Trango's first mistake was the "mesh" game they played for a year. Then when they decide to get back into the game, they promise a product that seems too good to be true... and now it turns out, it was. So, they are now 2+ years behind everyone else in the RD world, and they are losing customers left and right. The licensed market may help get them by for a while, but I don't think that is enough business to sustain the company forever. Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola Canopy) in the last-mile access space However, neither you nor I run Trango If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now That said, you've started building out your network with different access solutions, and we're doing other stuff It looks like we've both moved on... -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
