Tom, Although hardware is a portion of any product investment...more importantly, the "high costs" that you see up-front have to do with the expected amortization of R&D
For example...one may ask, why are WiMAX basestations 3-8x the cost of a proprietary base station Well, in the international market, where WiMAX is basically being used to deliver BE type service (crappy last-mile connectivity to places that have nothing), "nifty QoS" features aren't really that important, and the manufacturers lose the ability to "vendor lock" operators into their platform due to the fact that the operator truly could care less about the ability to do nRPT, UGS, or resizing his OFDM symbol slots, blah blah blah... To add fuel to the fire here, since we're generally talking relatively low bandwidth requirements on a CPE...Keep in mind, the vast majority of WiMAX deployments have been in underserved 3rd world / developing countries, where it's possible to over-subscribe a 10 Mb AP 500:1 or even higher due to the fact that the subscriber plans being sold average ~64 kb. In the scenario where the operator is buying lots and lots of CPE, his sensitivity to CPE pricing increases in that market, due to the plethora of cheap CPE / SU manufacturers on the market, the manufacturer either will 1. Sell the base station and miss out on CPE sales 2. Sell the base station but be forced to discount CPE at or below cost to hold onto CPE sales The "premium" manufacturer has to make his money on the base station, b/c he isn't making anything on the CPE On the contrary, in the US market, due to a wide variety of "cheap crappy solutions" on the market today and the plethora of landline broadband options, for most of the market, WiMAX doesn't really have a HUGE role in the residential / SOHO access market... That said, the "thrill" of WiMAX in the market is more likely caused by the availability of quasi-coordinated high-power point-to-multipoint spectrum in the 3.65 GHz band. In this scenario, I like to compare the "excitement" of the 3.65 GHz band of today to the "excitement" of the 5 GHz band back in 2002 when everyone was still using 2.4 GHz for last-mile access. Both bands generally hit the market as a "fresh" solution for backhaul and/or "premium-class" business access... The characteristics of this type of a market is a lot different than that of the residential "cheap-crappy" access market...namely caused by lower CPE deployment density...as a result, the operators are generally 1. Less sensitive to CPE prices 2. Less sensitive to "vendor lock" from proprietary systems To sum, the current "mindset" of the manufacturer is as follows (keep in mind, this is being influenced by their involvement in the international market) I need to sell my AP for $10k b/c I'm either going to lose CPE sales or have to sell them near my cost (b/c today, I have to get to $300 / CPE and by next year, I have to get to $200 / CPE) My counterargument here would be this Sell you AP for $3k, b/c operators will have to buy your AP for its QoS / premium "features" -- and the very nature of those QoS / premium features will lock the customers into using your CPE...since they will be used for either backhaul or high-value business customers, while it'd be nice to have a $200 CPE...if the system does things (like VoIP prioritization, high pps services, MPLS, psuedowire support) that a $200 Canopy / Tranzeo / Alvarion / Trango / whatever won't support, the operators won't mind paying $400-600 for that CPE because they will not have the ability to charge $400-800 / month ARPUs with that product -Charles ------------------------------------------- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Great post.Charles. What I find funny is.... The primary WiMax vendors, (Alvarion, redline, airspan, Aperto, etc) were always the Vendors that tried to sell their Non-Wimax grear for $10,000 an AP before WImax came to play. (For example: Alvarion still trying to sell unlicensed VL AUs for $6k and 54mb SUs for $1.5k ) The question I pose is... What is the driving force to price? Is "Wimax" expensive? Or is it the "system manufactures" that impose the expensive? Is WiMax just a buzzward excuse, to help justify why they can try to get the "price" they want? I argue that there is not anything functional about WiMax that makes it more costly to product. Any arguement to justify why it is expensive, is a load of Crxp. It doesn't have to be. (Actually, it does take significantly more processing power, so those 386-100Mhz SBCs are a thing of the past, but proportionally the SBCs and Chips with fast enough processing power, are inexpensive today.). I thought it rather interesting to see the N/MIMO mpci cards comming out (Ubiquitit SR71). It won't be long before the OEM 4 array antenna N class APs are on the Towers streets and into Mikrotik and other OEM products, doing to Wimax, what they did to proprietary unlicensed, driving price down. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents > (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) > > > > DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel > free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter > > > > > > Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz > > > > 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector > > configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver > > approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is > > supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same > > BSU. > > > > This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there > that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as > to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties > of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, > not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes > don't do much in the presence of noise > > > > Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when > you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x > the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in > the crowded 900 MHz band. > > > > > > 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, > > Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) > > > > The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" features > of WiMAX which needs to be explained... > > > > Fictitious Scenario: > > > > Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to > enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features > (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are > customized to each user...blah blah blah > > > > Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a > few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, > I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS > from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" story > gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / > upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've > deployed. > > > > Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is > doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a > "premium" service that requires features not currently supported on Brand > A AP. Luckily, I have a "WiMAX" system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with > Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support > all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that > I need > > > > Sorry, isn't going to work > > > > As things turn out, the only "interoperability" testing done between Brand > A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic > Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a > 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize > my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz & 7 MHz > channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / > VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace > my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs > > > > Oops > > > > What's the moral of the story? > > > > Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common > denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. > > > > 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) > > > > Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? > > > > I can easily "slant" the argument the other way by bringing up an example > where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX > > > > Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that > Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) > > NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? > > Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS > than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? > > > > 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) > > > > See above > > > > 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) > > > > There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more > sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA > systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a > $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself > into a "proprietary" implementation of your WiMAX system > > > > 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of > > subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) > > > > WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes out at an > aggregate "throughput" range of ~10 Mbps per AP > > > > To get better performance (up to 20 Mbps / AP), I give up interoperability > > > > > > 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) > > > > At the expense of interoperability > > > > 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order > > commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) > > > > Ubiquiti Lightstations are sub-$100 > > Tranzeos / Deliberant / whatever are in the $100-200 range > > Motorola Canopy / Alvarion is in the $200-300 range > > > > Oh, and they (just like WiMAX) are basically proprietary > > > > 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions > > available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls > > ) > > > > Carrier Class = $10k APs > > If you're willing to spend $10k for an AP - you can get a proprietary > 'WISP' system that has all the "carrier-class" features of "WiMAX" > > > > 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning > > and management of subscribers and base stations. > > > > Lol...I find this amusing...as the WiMAX specification "overcomplicates" > the provisioning process, so you now have the need to purchase a system to > simplify provisioning so it will work like a Canopy / Trango / Tranzeo / > Alvarion =) > > > > Supply and Demand at its best =/ > > > > That said, if you are still interested in WiMAX after this "cold dose of > reality," we have plenty of radios in stock =) > > > > -Charles > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > WISPA Wants You! 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