[WISPA] Router Wars '08
Joshua Rowe wrote: This should maybe be a new thread, and I'm not sure Tom is making this point or not,, but I agree, would you trust your CORE to anything but Cisco? I'm not sure I would. Cisco gear is well-supported and pretty darned solid, but is often many times as expensive as the next-best alternative, and the benefits don't always justify the drastically increased cost. Example: For three years, my core router was a cheap rackmount PC running Mikrotik's RouterOS on a flash card. That server cost about $1000 when bought, and replaced a Cisco 3640 that originally cost over $10,000 but couldn't handle the load of my growing network. Despite Cisco's performance claims, the poor thing couldn't really handle more than about 10Mbps of constant traffic with a single BGP peer. The only reason the Mikrotik got replaced was because of CALEA issues (this was early last year, before Mikrotik added a CALEA package to their software). Its replacement was an Imagestream Rebel, which again was about 1/5 the cost of a comparably-specced Cisco 3700 series. (And yes, this was through a Cisco reseller, not list price, we all know that nobody ever pays Cisco list price unless they're mad.) I like Cisco gear, really I do. I love the fact that everything uses essentially the same command set, and that you can do pretty much anything with a Cisco of some sort. I still have a few older routers (for T1s) and a number of their switches in my NOC. However, for many smaller networks on a budget, there are plenty of alternatives that will work just as well, if not better. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
On Mar 18, 2008, at 12:36 PM, David E. Smith wrote: Cisco gear is well-supported and pretty darned solid, but is often many times as expensive as the next-best alternative, and the benefits don't always justify the drastically increased cost. That is usually the argument, but it does beg the question. If money wasn't factor would you prefer Cisco? Anyway, that is a silly question. Here is a better one. I am currently paying around $3k for Cisco 12008s that are fully redundant, can handle today's full tables (i.e. greater than 256,000 routes), route at line speed, support MPLS, etc. Can you name any solution that for the same cost could achieve equivalent results? -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
Got another one for sale? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08 On Mar 18, 2008, at 12:36 PM, David E. Smith wrote: Cisco gear is well-supported and pretty darned solid, but is often many times as expensive as the next-best alternative, and the benefits don't always justify the drastically increased cost. That is usually the argument, but it does beg the question. If money wasn't factor would you prefer Cisco? Anyway, that is a silly question. Here is a better one. I am currently paying around $3k for Cisco 12008s that are fully redundant, can handle today's full tables (i.e. greater than 256,000 routes), route at line speed, support MPLS, etc. Can you name any solution that for the same cost could achieve equivalent results? -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
Hi Matt, I generally stay out of these things, but I have some questions in order to answer your question: 1. You are referring to used Cisco pricing, right? 2. How much throughput do you require the router to handle? 3. How much are you paying for support? If you need less than 100 Megs (full duplex) of overall throughput, and it's Ethernet only, you can do this with the ImageStream Rebel router with a year of support/warranty for less than $3K. In addition, we offer our CALEA solution (which will become the WISPA CALEA Standard once it is done) on the router for no additional cost. Regards, Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08 On Mar 18, 2008, at 12:36 PM, David E. Smith wrote: Cisco gear is well-supported and pretty darned solid, but is often many times as expensive as the next-best alternative, and the benefits don't always justify the drastically increased cost. That is usually the argument, but it does beg the question. If money wasn't factor would you prefer Cisco? Anyway, that is a silly question. Here is a better one. I am currently paying around $3k for Cisco 12008s that are fully redundant, can handle today's full tables (i.e. greater than 256,000 routes), route at line speed, support MPLS, etc. Can you name any solution that for the same cost could achieve equivalent results? -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
I have access to a large source. Hit me offlist with what you need. -Matt On Mar 18, 2008, at 12:58 PM, Gino Villarini wrote: Got another one for sale? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08 On Mar 18, 2008, at 12:36 PM, David E. Smith wrote: Cisco gear is well-supported and pretty darned solid, but is often many times as expensive as the next-best alternative, and the benefits don't always justify the drastically increased cost. That is usually the argument, but it does beg the question. If money wasn't factor would you prefer Cisco? Anyway, that is a silly question. Here is a better one. I am currently paying around $3k for Cisco 12008s that are fully redundant, can handle today's full tables (i.e. greater than 256,000 routes), route at line speed, support MPLS, etc. Can you name any solution that for the same cost could achieve equivalent results? -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by One Ring Networks, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
Matt Liotta wrote: Anyway, that is a silly question. Here is a better one. I am currently paying around $3k for Cisco 12008s that are fully redundant, can handle today's full tables (i.e. greater than 256,000 routes), route at line speed, support MPLS, etc. Can you name any solution that for the same cost could achieve equivalent results? Where are you getting your gear? That's roughly 90% less than any price I've ever been quoted. Heck, that's cheaper than a lot of the used units on eBay - and that's just empty chassis, not even including line cards. Are you sure you didn't leave out a zero in there somewhere? (You wouldn't use the pricing of used gear instead of new to try to make your point, would you? :P ) As an aside, a serious question for those who buy/use used Cisco gear. My understanding is that IOS licenses are tied not just to the hardware, but also to the purchaser thereof, and are non-transferable. Thus, if you buy a used Cisco (anything) you aren't supposed to use it without contacting Cisco and paying for IOS. (Not just for access to updates, but to even boot your chosen device, you're technically required to give Cisco some money.) Did this ever change? (Also, Matt: if you seriously are getting GSR 12000s and IOS for that cheap, email me offlist, I'm genuinely intrigued.) David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
On Mar 18, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Jeff Broadwick wrote: Hi Matt, I generally stay out of these things, but I have some questions in order to answer your question: 1. You are referring to used Cisco pricing, right? Yes 2. How much throughput do you require the router to handle? Gigs 3. How much are you paying for support? No If you need less than 100 Megs (full duplex) of overall throughput, and it's Ethernet only, you can do this with the ImageStream Rebel router with a year of support/warranty for less than $3K. In addition, we offer our CALEA solution (which will become the WISPA CALEA Standard once it is done) on the router for no additional cost. I don't believe you sell a router in the same class as the 12008. Not trying to be mean or anything, but I looked on your site and didn't see anything. Regardless, we have hundreds of Cisco routers in our network and have no plans for changing to another vendor. It is simply easier to hire Cisco engineers than any other brand. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
On Mar 18, 2008, at 1:11 PM, David E. Smith wrote: Where are you getting your gear? That's roughly 90% less than any price I've ever been quoted. Heck, that's cheaper than a lot of the used units on eBay - and that's just empty chassis, not even including line cards. Are you sure you didn't leave out a zero in there somewhere? That is a real number. I'm a savvy shopper. ;) (You wouldn't use the pricing of used gear instead of new to try to make your point, would you? :P ) Of course it is used. Cisco EOLed the 12008 some time ago. As an aside, a serious question for those who buy/use used Cisco gear. My understanding is that IOS licenses are tied not just to the hardware, but also to the purchaser thereof, and are non-transferable. Thus, if you buy a used Cisco (anything) you aren't supposed to use it without contacting Cisco and paying for IOS. (Not just for access to updates, but to even boot your chosen device, you're technically required to give Cisco some money.) Did this ever change? That is a complicated question. The simplest answer I can give you is that we don't use the IOS that comes with the used gear. I would say in general that if your shop doesn't have significant experience with Cisco in general you can likely get burned buying used Cisco gear. There is even the whole counterfeit problem you have to watch out for. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08
I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing used prices with others new prices, if the used gear potentially has a reputation of a longer life span due to quality engineering, or a good aftermarket repair channel.. The downfalls I see are most people can't find that caliber (12000 series) gear for $3k used, or for that matter any MPLS gear used. There is little need to liquidate MPLS gear under market value. Availabilty isn't as predictable. What happpens when the 12000 series gear goes down, and one needs an immediate replacement, will they have to fork our $30K to get it fixed over night? So if quoting used, it should be a used product that likely would have several consistent sources in the open market, to be a fair comparison. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Router Wars '08 Matt Liotta wrote: Anyway, that is a silly question. Here is a better one. I am currently paying around $3k for Cisco 12008s that are fully redundant, can handle today's full tables (i.e. greater than 256,000 routes), route at line speed, support MPLS, etc. Can you name any solution that for the same cost could achieve equivalent results? Where are you getting your gear? That's roughly 90% less than any price I've ever been quoted. Heck, that's cheaper than a lot of the used units on eBay - and that's just empty chassis, not even including line cards. Are you sure you didn't leave out a zero in there somewhere? (You wouldn't use the pricing of used gear instead of new to try to make your point, would you? :P ) As an aside, a serious question for those who buy/use used Cisco gear. My understanding is that IOS licenses are tied not just to the hardware, but also to the purchaser thereof, and are non-transferable. Thus, if you buy a used Cisco (anything) you aren't supposed to use it without contacting Cisco and paying for IOS. (Not just for access to updates, but to even boot your chosen device, you're technically required to give Cisco some money.) Did this ever change? (Also, Matt: if you seriously are getting GSR 12000s and IOS for that cheap, email me offlist, I'm genuinely intrigued.) David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1333 - Release Date: 3/18/2008 8:10 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
