RE: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
Chris Townson wrote: what a list looks like or how you want a list to look are irrelevant in the context of this debate. also irrelevant is whether the pipe or vertical bar has accrued implied or associated meaning through (ab)use. semantic mark-up is about utilising the most appropriate tag available for a particular thing within the provided specification Geoff Pack wrote: I don't think it is irrelevant. Meaning = semantics. If my inline pipe-separated list already has the semantics I intend, then making it an html list adds nothing but cruft. I don't see the point of marking it up as a list, only to have to add CSS to change it back to what I intended in the first place. Yes, I'm fully aware that, in a restricted sense, meaning = semantics (strictly speaking, the difference is: semantics = what some _thing_ signifies, indicates, or says; meaning = what I think or suppose some thing signifies, or the related thought induced by that thing ... although the precise difference is beyond the scope of this list) The point here is that (X)HTML provides a formal definition for a set of tags which are intended to have _semantic_ value. The explicit semantic association this provides is intended to make stuff within those tags amenable to meaningful processing _by_computers_. As computers themselves are not capable of having meaning (i.e. as something they possess and comprehend), it is essentially the formal definition that makes this processing possible (as a pre-agreed set of human meanings which are programatically implemented). The implementation of additional, arbitrary _human_ meaning (or devices thereof), whilst an essential part of the design process, is not something which lies at the core of semantic markup (the very notion of markup being intended _for_ a computer). Therefore: stage 1 in achieving semantic markup is to use suitable, provided tags where these are available (and I've encountered few situations where suitable tags are not available, even if they are generic or require class/id attributes to further describe them) so that code can be meaningfully processed. You asked: And what does a list really look like? In this context, that is beside the point (the idea being that, ultimately, the end user is then in control of appearance if they wish to be). Nonetheless, I can appreciate that there are pragmatic reasons for not utilising a particular tag in particular situations (your example of a comma-separated list within a sentence being one). end of story. Not really. That's what we're here for. Apologies - that was me being flippant - a bad habit. What I meant to suggest is that my point here is one of logic, more than opinion (i.e. if we accept the idea of semantic markup with a formal definition - then ... ) In everyday practice, matters are far more blurred ... but, personally speaking, I would still never markup a list with pipe separators ;D Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
I did a little mor elooking around, and I found the following means of
achiving what I am after.
Here does:
CSS CODE
#navcontainer ul
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
list-style-type: none;
text-align: center;
}
#navcontainer ul li { display: inline; }
#navcontainer ul li a
{
text-decoration: none;
padding: .2em 1em;
color: #fff;
background-color: #036;
}
#navcontainer ul li a:hover
{
color: #fff;
background-color: #369;
}
HTML CODE
div id=navcontainer
ul
lia href=#Milk/a/li
lia href=#Eggs/a/li
lia href=#Cheese/a/li
lia href=#Vegetables/a/li
lia href=#Fruit/a/li
/ul
/div
The above works perfectly, but I am still a little unsure on how to
set an image as the background of the list items.
I need this image
(http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/button_07.gif) as the
background to each of the list items, so that the list finally looks
likes this (http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/sprite.gif)
[disregard the lighter green background colour. that is fr
demonstration only].
Christian, anyone else? Are you able to she some advice or lend a hand?
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Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Christian, On 12/12/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not trying to center, the issue is height and more correctly height which expands to fit content of nested divs and probably even more correctly a box with columns in it which expands all columns to be equal in height to the one with the most content. Yes, you have missed something: equal height columns with pure CSS: http://positioniseverything.net/articles/onetruelayout/equalheight there are more links I could give you to older methods, but this is the *holy grail* of CSS columns. Anyone who hasn't seen this should. Thanks for the info, but reading the implementation of the technique reveals it is rife with hacks, which so far I've managed to avoid in the sites I've designed. Given a choice of one table or hacks to do what one table already does, I'll stick with the one table. If the current specs still have height issues for divs (which it seems they do), how can we be chastised for using a table to accomplish what can't be accomplished without resorting to javascript or hacks - it seems the lesser of the evils. As for more simply, just getting a container to contain floats: http://www.complexspiral.com/publications/containing-floats/ I'm not having problems with floats. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Given a choice of one table or hacks to do what one table already does, I'll stick with the one table. Only so called hacks go to the presentation layer (CSS file) and table stays in your HTML markup. If the current specs still have height issues for divs (which it seems they do), how can we be chastised for using a table to accomplish what can't be accomplished without resorting to javascript or hacks - it seems the lesser of the evils. There is one browser with issues, not the specs. And still - table for layout _is_ a hack. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
And still - table for layout _is_ a hack. I'd rather have that single, easy to spot hack, which adds very little overhead, than multiple background images and extra divs coupled with hyroglyphics in my css file. Yes, I know presentation belongs in the CSS. No, I don't subscribe to Never ever ever use a table for layout purposes although I do frown on nesting them. No, I don't usually use a table for layout, but I can understand people who use a SINGLE layout table in some cases. If the alternative is too complicated, use a table, but don't nest them. We've had these discussions before, so I'll leave it there :-) Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body in column 1 goes a 1000px high image in column 2 goes a 750px high image in column 3 goes a 500px high image the end result should be that all three columns are the same height in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows Bob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body in column 1 goes a 1000px high image in column 2 goes a 750px high image in column 3 goes a 500px high image the end result should be that all three columns are the same height in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary. As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity. When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let you all know. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I'd rather have that single, easy to spot hack, which adds very little overhead, than multiple background images and extra divs coupled with hyroglyphics in my css file. Amen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
On 12/12/05, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...I'm just not sure it makes really good sense to add any kind of separators between links since they don't add any value from a usability point of view. They are just visuals that may come out as noise. I agree with you, Georg. My preference in this situation is to return to the basics - separate content from presentation. In the markup, just have a simple list; and use CSS to add border-left (or -right) to simulate pipe separators (as in that Google variant). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
OK, we've had this before, but here we go again. Show me an example of
centering a div vertically and horizontally on the screen, where you
don't need to know ANY sizes beforehand, don't need negative margins,
AND the result works in the viewport even when the viewport is smaller
than the content. (i.e., you can get to the top of it, and scroll) AND
it's got to work in IE.
Answer:
style type=text/css
!--
body, html {
height : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid{
height : 100%;
width : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid td {
vertical-align : middle;
text-align : center;
}
--
/style
/head
body
table id=layoutgrid
tr
td
This text is in the middle!
/td
/tr
/table
/body
One simple table! Now do it without a table . . .
Christian Montoya wrote:
Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary.
As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity.
When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let
you all know.
--
--
Christian Montoya
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I've found this particular topic so interesting, as I've gotten an insight into the different approaches people take towards building standards based designs or should I say, CSS driven designs. As we all know, there is not one perfect, fully robust, all conquering 100% correct way to design any conceivable web interface for a client or user, and I think this is what a few people have alluded to in their posts, albeit they are saying it in different ways. So without a perfect solution being present, you're left to find the best solution you can, under your often unique set of circumstances. I'd like to think everyone on this list understands the holistic nature of designing with web standards, understanding why the effort is worth it, but also realising that the ideals of designing with web standards must always be taken with a good deal of common sense (and humour, cheers Russ). There are so many factors to consider when designing an interface and personally, that's what I love about this work, it's never boring and always challenging. As developers, all we can ever hope for is to do the best job we can with the knowledge we have at the time, delivering the best solution possible for the client and of course, the end user. If everyone who has posted different arguments is doing the best they can, then I say well done and good stuff! Ryan Blunden ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
CLOSED : Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify
Hi allPlease don't reply to this any more, or stuff like this in the future. It's been dealt with.Remember, before you hit send, judge whether you really want 2800 people to read your message.Thanks James---adminOn 12/13/05, Wayne Douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OMG, a list of web proffesionals non-the-less!
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
As for a standards-based page, agreeing that it is not a hard and fast rule that tables be banned for layout, can you present some logical arguments against this page - keeping strictly within the context of standards: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics.htm I would pose the counter question: agreeing that it could have been done easily enough in CSS, why use a table? ... But, anyway, arguments against that example: 1) The standards say tables aren't for layout; this page uses a table for layout; it is not a standards-compliant page. Whether it validates or not, it is not true to the intention of the standard ... your opinion may differ, but that's mine :) 2) Building in a table means the page won't display so well on a small screen device - it's wide, small screens are mostly narrow (sony psp aside... :)). The side-by-side design also means it wouldn't lend itself to a zoom layout either. 3) The table means you are tied to that specific layout for the life of the page (or you have to modify every single page to change the layout). You can't use CSS to switch the navigation to the other side or any nifty tricks like that. Of course, that might not be an issue - but the example doesn't give a scenario so let's assume longevity and maintenance are a factor. At work I deal with a site with 20,000+ pages so these factors are big for us :) 4) Screen readers will hear the table before the content. Depending on their settings, users will be hearing 2-column page layout table instead of getting into the content. In the grand scheme of things, not the end of the world. But it's not necessary. Accepting the break from pure standards; it's not bad. I have actually recommended people use simple layout tables when other solutions fail; or as a transition stage from tables to CSS. Some specific things like vertical centring are still poorly supported in CSS (or more accurately, poorly supported in browsers). The example certainly doesn't prove that tables are ok for layout; just that you can build something which does use a table for layout and is still ok. To put it another way, if you were to put that in production I wouldn't really care; there are far bigger problems to tackle ;) h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and Validation
I have some problem with this method when I use this in ASP files. The IIS engine attempts parsing this embeded object element and returns error DO NOT EMBED OBJECT ELEMENTS. I cannot understand why client side code - HTML - makes service side error. So I use this method like following way in ASP project. !-- Hixie method -- !--[if IE] object classid="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-44455354">"clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-44455354" codebase="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0">"http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0" width="900" height="80" id="flash_movie" align="middle" param name="movie" value="/images/swf/main_menu.swf" / param name="wmode" value="transparent" / /object ![endif]-- !-- Hixie method -- !--[if !IE] -- object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="/images/swf/main_menu.swf" width="900" height="80" param name="wmode" value="transparent" / /object !-- ![endif]-- morten fjellman wrote: Hi. I have used the following code for a couple of years now, and have never had any problems with it. object classid="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-44455354">"clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-44455354" codebase=""http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"> http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" width="762" height="118" param name="movie" value=" header.swf" / param name="quality" value="high" / !--[if !IE] -- object data="" width="762" height="118" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" param name="quality" value="high" / param name="pluginurl" value="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer " / ERROR! There is supposed to be Flash content here. /object !-- ![endif]-- /object The width, height and path to the swf are just example values. Same with the Error text. Regards Morten Fjellman On 12/12/05, Richard Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One way of getting round the problem is to use _javascript_ to add the flash to a valid document using DOM _javascript_. Have a look at Bobby van der Sluis's UFO http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/ Richard -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk On 12/12/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys and Gals, A problem I have ignored all too long is Flash and XHTML.The problem lies in the embed tag and its attributes of course.I have of course read the alistapart articles on how they have taken steps to make valid code, but I have still found problems in Opera etc when using their methods. I wonder how you guys code in your flash on your pages - let me know! Thanks, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
2005/12/12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body ... the end result should be that all three columns are the same height That's the easy part: all browsers that can render according to spec... http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html ...which should be all of today's major browsers but the one mentioned on the page linked to below... Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary. As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity. When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let you all know. Those bells and whistles are fun to have in the background at times though - as long as they are kept relatively quiet :-) I'm not sure whether the following page is css-driven or css-enhanced or just a huge - flexible - hack, but it sure wouldn't work if there were tables in the source-code. http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/molly_1_20.html ...gosh, even that old Trident gets it. And, for the record: that's not a real page - just a sheet in my book of bells and whistles. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I'd rather have that single, easy to spot hack, which adds very little overhead, than multiple background images and extra divs coupled with hyroglyphics in my css file. Amen So, how are you going to style your single table? Either with CSS with all multiple background imageas and extra divs, or with even more sliced pieces of images peppered accross that simple table? Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
On Dec 13, 2005, at 6:50 AM, Srecko Micic wrote: 2005/12/12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net) by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0y for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body in column 1 goes a 1000px high image in column 2 goes a 750px high image in column 3 goes a 500px high image the end result should be that all three columns are the same height in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary. As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity. When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let you all know. Bells and whistles without any neccessity What I have described is how sites were done for years. As for necessity, some clients just happen to like it this way. Do you try and please your clients when you do a site or what? Bob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 13 Dec, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: I'd rather have that single, easy to spot hack, which adds very little overhead, than multiple background images and extra divs coupled with hyroglyphics in my css file. Amen So, how are you going to style your single table? Either with CSS with all multiple background imageas and extra divs, or with even more sliced pieces of images peppered accross that simple table? What? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#a6vQxgsxnTQ2Ky73eCXlkHoHksHXd3PV
On 13/12/05, Ben Lymer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 13, 2005, at 6:50 AM, Srecko Micic wrote: 2005/12/12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Due to the volume of Spam around the internet, and in the interests of keeping the internet as spam-free as possible, unfortunately, the message you sent requires that you verify that you are a real live human being and not a spam source. To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leave the subject line intact. Full apologies to those legitimate messages that are being verified, but, you will only need to verify once! Thanks for your assistance in helping to clear the internet of spam! The headers of the message sent from your address are show below: From wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Mon Dec 12 12:04:07 2005 Received: from [216.119.112.83] (helo=mail.webboy.net)by spirit.premierservers.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52)id 1Elr5p-0001Il-0yfor [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:04:07 -0500 From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=Windows-1252; boundary=SM_c877dea0-6c92-451d-af83-7fb727368263 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:45:46 1100 message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)
Geoff Pack wrote: As for lists, the pipe separated menu list is perfectly clear to most people. What is missing is a clean way to mark it up with HTML. You could use an unordered list, styled inline, but that is overkill in many cases, and not an useable if you want the list to be inline when styles are missing or turned off. Hi, I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not pipe separators are /visually/ clear in meaning--they, of course, are. When I see them, I know exactly what they mean; generally a separator for inline list items: Banana | Apple | Orange | If, however, I see them in an unstyled list (browser default for example), they carry much less meaning visually: * Banana | * Apple | * Orange | The items are already clearly delineated by the UA and the persistence of the pipes adds no semantic meaning--I don't even think it /looks/ proper at this point, but I digress. In either instance pipe separators have little to no meaning outside of a visual context, which by nature makes them presentational. As such it only makes good sense to leverage CSS, either through the use of background images or borders, to present this visual usability enhancement. I will continue to use visual cues like these myself, but will do so as semantically as possible. -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
2005/12/13, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: ... http://rimantas.com/bits/notable.html Opera: since version 4. Gecko browsers: works with the oldest I have got: Mozilla Seamonkey 0.6 (2000-12-05) build. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
heretic wrote: As for a standards-based page, agreeing that it is not a hard and fast rule that tables be banned for layout, can you present some logical arguments against this page - keeping strictly within the context of standards: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics.htm I would pose the counter question: agreeing that it could have been done easily enough in CSS, why use a table? ... But, anyway, arguments against that example: 1) The standards say tables aren't for layout; this page uses a table for layout; it is not a standards-compliant page. Whether it validates or not, it is not true to the intention of the standard ... your opinion may differ, but that's mine :) Fair enough. Of course, my opinion differs in that I believe that there is no standard mandating that a table not be used for layout. 2) Building in a table means the page won't display so well on a small screen device - it's wide, small screens are mostly narrow (sony psp aside... :)). The side-by-side design also means it wouldn't lend itself to a zoom layout either. Small-screen devices have a completely different relevancy than many people allow - or admit. But rather than get into a debate over the futility of writing to a Twer of Babel mix of small-screen browsers, I submit that standards-conformant small-screen user agents have no problems linearizing a simple layout table (let's sic the WaSP on the bad guys there). Remember, we're not talking about ugly, messy, nested table layouts as done by Photoshop or Fireworks, we're talking clean, simple, layout tables used to render stable columns. 3) The table means you are tied to that specific layout for the life of the page (or you have to modify every single page to change the layout). You can't use CSS to switch the navigation to the other side or any nifty tricks like that. Of course, that might not be an issue - but the example doesn't give a scenario so let's assume longevity and maintenance are a factor. At work I deal with a site with 20,000+ pages so these factors are big for us :) Have a look at this page: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics_ssi.htm 4) Screen readers will hear the table before the content. Depending on their settings, users will be hearing 2-column page layout table instead of getting into the content. In the grand scheme of things, not the end of the world. But it's not necessary. The summary can be made briefer :-) But you're right, it's not the end of the world, and JAWs and Co. will also be announcing lists and, depending on your preferences, lots of other stuff. Accepting the break from pure standards; it's not bad. I have actually recommended people use simple layout tables when other solutions fail; or as a transition stage from tables to CSS. Some specific things like vertical centring are still poorly supported in CSS (or more accurately, poorly supported in browsers). Agreed. And I hope you realize I'm not advocating the use of tables for layout becoming the dominant force in page design :-) What I'm trying to do is to let people know that if a certain projects and clients could be more efficiently dealt with by using a simple, clean table structure, they don't have to feel stupid, evil, or unclean. There is alleged to be a small faction of intolerant, and somtimes condescending, people within the standards/CSS community. The example certainly doesn't prove that tables are ok for layout; just that you can build something which does use a table for layout and is still ok. To put it another way, if you were to put that in production I wouldn't really care; there are far bigger problems to tackle ;) I'll conider that a philosophical victory ;-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Scrolling in IE5.5
Hi Joe, i ck'd it with my standalone IE5.5 and IE5.1 and it showed with scroll bars and scrolled with the mouse. donna Joseph Lindsay wrote: Hi folks, I have an issue with IE5.5 (who doesn't?). This page: http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/no/newsletters/20051118.html displays without scroll-bars, and wont scroll with a mouse wheel either. It does scroll with the keyboard. I know the obvious fix is tell the users to get a modern browser, and I will recommend this to the user. Has anyone else come across this before? Is there a fix? While you're looking, are there any Mac browser issues? Thanks Joe ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Try it in IE Mac, you're in for a surprise. 2005/12/13, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: ... http://rimantas.com/bits/notable.html Opera: since version 4. Gecko browsers: works with the oldest I have got: Mozilla Seamonkey 0.6 (2000-12-05) build. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Display: table-cell is a great tool, but its practicality will not be meaningful for several years. While IE5 Mac is fairly irrelevant, IE5 and IE6 Windows have a long life remaining. It's a fun declaration to play with, but serious commercial designers would be ill-advised to depend on it at this point. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? Try it in IE Mac, you're in for a surprise. 2005/12/13, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: ... http://rimantas.com/bits/notable.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Display: table-cell is a great tool, but its practicality will not be meaningful for several years. While IE5 Mac is fairly irrelevant, IE5 and IE6 Windows have a long life remaining. It's a fun declaration to play with, but serious commercial designers would be ill-advised to depend on it at this point. This is all true, but: Me: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Bob: Which browser can correctly render the following: Question was which browser can, not which cannot. ;) My point was: we should not blame CSS for shortcomings of the particular browser. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary. As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity. When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let you all know. Bells and whistles without any neccessity What I have described is how sites were done for years. As for necessity, some clients just happen to like it this way. Do you try and please your clients when you do a site or what? So you don't have a site where this was necessary? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Markup of calculations, list within a cell
Hello list, I'm having two doubts concerning markup of data (in a table). For example: table summary=captionOverview hotels/caption tr th Name hotelbr / Citybr / Type roombr / Breakfast including /th tdDate staying/td td 100 eurobr / Taxes: 25 eurobr / Total: 125 euro /td /tr /table - First one: Should I markup those data in a list? (ul, li) Is a p valid? Or just loose text with br / ? - Second one: Does exist a semantical correct way to markup the last cell's calculation? Thank you very much in advance. Best regards, Esther ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
rant comment=please correct me if I'm wrong about anything Why should Text mode browsers benefit from the ALT property when Graphical agents can't? I understand that this is planned to change in future specifications but Why does the IMG element have an alt property? why not define a label property instead (and longlabel) or caption property. This would make the semantics more readable AND would allow CSS to be non-discriminative. The problem with an ALT prop. is that it stands for 'Alternate Text' this means that, at present, designers are having to go out of their way to cater for disabled people and machine-based readers by adding hidden content, while this is not 'a bad thing', it is not going to encourage people to bother. Also, User-Agents won't display the text because there is a better alternative available. What book/magazine prints pictures without labels or descriptions? If the property name was comment or label, then designers and content managers would see the property as a semantic and presentational benefit. Also, CSS properties could be defined to allow styling of the label alongside the image in graphical browsers as well as in text mode browsers. Therefore people are more aware of the benefits of labeling images, Designers would be encouraged to design according to good publishing practices and (hopefully) disabled people would benefit from more widespread accessibility. /rant BTW. does anyone know a good way of stylistically adding labels to images? At the moment i'm using: p class=image title=!label! img src=!URI! alt=!label!/span class=label!label!/span /p is this right? what do you suggest? Stephen Stagg. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
It depends on who the recipient of the policy doc is. One, very large, contractor we were working with considered MUST to mean SHOULD, and SHOULD to be IF YOU CAN BE RSED. They're government funded so no-one cared. Stephen heretic wrote: I guess your assertion hinges on how one interprets the word should. Perhaps I am English-challenged, but I always took should to have a suggestive or advisory connotation, while shall or must are obligatory :-) One quick comment on this... I always write must in draft policy documents; but the higher-ups change them all to should before the final version. I am told that should is Policy-Speak for must, since it allows for discretion in considered instances. Basically, it means for all intents and purposes, you must not do this on pain of death but there is wiggle room to plead your case if greater evil might occur by following the rule. Personally I'd keep must and let people sort it out for themselves, because you should never suggest the rules are still being followed if they're being broken. But policy speak dictates should. In any case, we are dealing with a language (English, that is) which produced the rule I before E except when it's not. I know, it used to be ...before C but that's not actually true (weird isn't it). Crazy language :) h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber wrote: In any case, we are dealing with a language (English, that is) which produced the rule I before E except when it's not. I know, it used to be ...before C but that's not actually true (weird isn't it). Crazy language :) Except it's not a rule but an aid to correct spelling. you could say I SHOULD be before E EXCEPT where usage dictated otherwise. It seems silly to sty and define something in a rule when there are so many exceptions. Like saying 'every day is a Tuesday except when it's not' is not an indication of a Crazy time system but an indication of a bad rule. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
From: Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Al Sparber wrote: In any case, we are dealing with a language (English, that is) which produced the rule I before E except when it's not. I know, it used to be ...before C but that's not actually true (weird isn't it). Crazy language :) Except it's not a rule but an aid to correct spelling. you could say I SHOULD be before E EXCEPT where usage dictated otherwise. It seems silly to sty and define something in a rule when there are so many exceptions. Like saying 'every day is a Tuesday except when it's not' is not an indication of a Crazy time system but an indication of a bad rule. Hi Stephen, Actually, I did not say that. The person responding to me said it. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I take it, therefore, that none of your sites use style sheets at all (unnecessary), they all use a serif font for body content(easier to read long para's when in serifs) and that images are only used for visualization aids? Very little of what we do is determined by necessity, otherwise we would still all be farmers. The situation I had where I wanted to control column heights was when designing a fluid layout with image based borders and corners. The only way that I could do it (because of this problem) was to make one border non-image based (ie a 1px border). Stephen Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/13/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one browser with issues, not the specs. Which browser can correctly render the following: 3 columns, no height defined and a background color different from that of the body in column 1 goes a 1000px high image in column 2 goes a 750px high image in column 3 goes a 500px high image the end result should be that all three columns are the same height in other words: below the image in column 1, no background color shows below the image in column 2, 250px of background color shows below the image in column 3, 500px of background color shows Please send us all an example of a site where this was necessary. As usual designers want bells and whistles without any necessity. When I find a reason to actually use equal height columns, I'll let you all know. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
On 12/13/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I take it, therefore, that none of your sites use style sheets at all (unnecessary), they all use a serif font for body content(easier to read long para's when in serifs) and that images are only used for visualization aids? Very little of what we do is determined by necessity, otherwise we would still all be farmers. You make funny conclusions. The situation I had where I wanted to control column heights was when designing a fluid layout with image based borders and corners. The only way that I could do it (because of this problem) was to make one border non-image based (ie a 1px border). Bob's example could easily be done with CSS, but it would probably involve one or two css techniques (like negative margins) that would make others dislike it. And knowing that in advance, I won't waste the time doing it. As for your example, the question is, are you sure you found the only way to solve your problem? Because, while I don't mind that you settled on a table as the solution, I would like to see if I can recreate what you did in CSS. Maybe you have a link to this example? As an aside, I see it this way: it isn't about what CSS can't do. CSS can do anything that was ever done with layout tables. The only problem is browser support. And if you are saying to use layout tables to support old browsers, that's one story. You won't see me arguing against that. But at least admit that it's a hack. We are definitely off topic from the original thread, too. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and Validation
On Dec 12, 2005, at 10:18 AM, morten fjellman wrote: I have used the following code for a couple of years now, and have never had any problems with it. object ... !--[if !IE] -- object data=header.swf ... /object !-- ![endif]-- /object I'm about to launch a site using a slightly enhanced form of this technique, based on Hixie's method: !--[if IE] object width=89 height=13 type=application/x-shockwave-flash codebase=http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/ swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0 param name=movie value=/swf/audio.swf / param name=flashvars value=code=Van_Vorst_Park / ![endif]--!--[if !IE]-- object type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=89 height=13 data=/swf/audio.swf?code=Van_Vorst_Park !--![endif]-- a href=/Film/Van_Vorst_Park/audioblog_1.mp3img src=/img/text/ buttons/audioblog.gif width=89 height=13 alt=audioblog //a /object The enhancement is mostly some combined redundancies, and an alternate content viewable by IE. (Morten's version hides the inner object and therefore its alternate from IE.) The only problems I've found with variants of Hixie's method do not apply to my site, but may apply to you. Safari apparently does not read the param values of an object tag. (Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting its symptoms.) This means that flashvars need to be passed in the url (bad for caching), and that things like bgcolor or wmode need to be set as attributes within the object tag. Such proprietary attributes, of course, invalidate the tag. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Tables are great divs are great and if you mix them it's almost twice as good or half as bad... whatever! (I think this subject has been driven way too hard and for x-mas I want it to run out of fuel :-) ) -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
What about the title attribute? img src=mygif.gif title=label alt=label / a href=whatever.htm title=some label hereimg src=mygif.gif alt=label //a BTW. does anyone know a good way of stylistically adding labels to images? At the moment i'm using: p class=image title=!label! img src=!URI! alt=!label!/span class=label!label!/span /p is this right? what do you suggest? Stephen Stagg. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber wrote: heretic wrote: 3) The table means you are tied to that specific layout for the life of the page (or you have to modify every single page to change the layout). You can't use CSS to switch the navigation to the other side or any nifty tricks like that. Of course, that might not be an issue - but the example doesn't give a scenario so let's assume longevity and maintenance are a factor. At work I deal with a site with 20,000+ pages so these factors are big for us :) Have a look at this page: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics_ssi.htm ;-) Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
On 12/13/05, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about the title attribute? img src=mygif.gif title=label alt=label / a href=whatever.htm title=some label hereimg src=mygif.gif alt=label //a Titles aren't used by anything... so they are useless. BTW. does anyone know a good way of stylistically adding labels to images? At the moment i'm using: p class=image title=!label! img src=!URI! alt=!label!/span class=label!label!/span /p is this right? what do you suggest? This isn't the only place where html falls short of giving us enough ability to make something semantic. But the closest I can get: dl dtimg src=picture alt=a picture of me//dt ddThis is a picture of me right after I sent an e-mail/dd /dl -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
Stephen Stagg wrote: snip BTW. does anyone know a good way of stylistically adding labels to images? At the moment i'm using: p class=image title=!label! img src=!URI! alt=!label!/span class=label!label!/span /p is this right? what do you suggest? /snip I'd code it this way: div id=!id! class=!class! img src=!URI! alt= / span class=caption!caption!/span /div I know that the alt tag is required and is supposed to provide content/context to screen readers but, is there any reason to provide the same content 3 different times? Meaningful alt attributes are in my opinion for situations when the content/context provided by the image are not otherwise available to users of adaptive technologies. I know that some would consider this solution to suffer from divitis but, an image and a caption do not fit my description of a paragraph. Randall ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
Hi Christian, Titles aren't used by anything... so they are useless. Would you care to explain??? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
Randall Potter wrote: I'd code it this way: div id=!id! class=!class! img src=!URI! alt= / span class=caption!caption!/span /div I know that some would consider this solution to suffer from divitis but, an image and a caption do not fit my description of a paragraph. The following W3C examples suffers from weak styling and optional HTML-tags, but should otherwise work well... http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/figures.html One day we may even have an XHTML standard for captions. Would be nice. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
On 12/13/05, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christian, Titles aren't used by anything... so they are useless. Would you care to explain??? From: http://www.sf.id.au/WE05/indexa.html * Users that rely upon the keyboard to access web content cannot access the TITLE text. * Some users of screen magnifiers will not be able to read the TITLE text. * Most users of screen reader software will not be aware of the TITLE text, some will not be not able to read the TITLE text even if they know it is there. I used to have this misconception about title attributes too, that I could assume every browser displayed them the same and screen readers would read them. That's not the case. Now I hardly use title attributes, and instead I put the content into the document where it belongs. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
I'd just like to point out that the alt text does benefit everyone in situations like providing tooltip content and for when images are not able to be downloaded/viewed. i.e. provide content for what the image would have been if it was displayed correctly (in fact I though that this was the reason for 'ALT' text, and it just benefitied assistive technologies like screen readers too, not the other way around?). Then there is the issue of what is 'meaningful' alt text, but Im not going to touch that one. Cheers, Nathan - Original Message - From: Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:57 AM Subject: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties rant comment=please correct me if I'm wrong about anything Why should Text mode browsers benefit from the ALT property when Graphical agents can't? I understand that this is planned to change in future specifications but Why does the IMG element have an alt property? why not define a label property instead (and longlabel) or caption property. This would make the semantics more readable AND would allow CSS to be non-discriminative. The problem with an ALT prop. is that it stands for 'Alternate Text' this means that, at present, designers are having to go out of their way to cater for disabled people and machine-based readers by adding hidden content, while this is not 'a bad thing', it is not going to encourage people to bother. Also, User-Agents won't display the text because there is a better alternative available. What book/magazine prints pictures without labels or descriptions? If the property name was comment or label, then designers and content managers would see the property as a semantic and presentational benefit. Also, CSS properties could be defined to allow styling of the label alongside the image in graphical browsers as well as in text mode browsers. Therefore people are more aware of the benefits of labeling images, Designers would be encouraged to design according to good publishing practices and (hopefully) disabled people would benefit from more widespread accessibility. /rant BTW. does anyone know a good way of stylistically adding labels to images? At the moment i'm using: p class=image title=!label! img src=!URI! alt=!label!/span class=label!label!/span /p is this right? what do you suggest? Stephen Stagg. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
Hi Christian, From: http://www.sf.id.au/WE05/indexa.html * Users that rely upon the keyboard to access web content cannot access the TITLE text. * Some users of screen magnifiers will not be able to read the TITLE text. * Most users of screen reader software will not be aware of the TITLE text, some will not be not able to read the TITLE text even if they know it is there. I used to have this misconception about title attributes too, that I could assume every browser displayed them the same and screen readers would read them. That's not the case. Now I hardly use title attributes, and instead I put the content into the document where it belongs. Excellent. Thanks for the explanation :) Kim -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
From: Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties Hi Christian, From: http://www.sf.id.au/WE05/indexa.html * Users that rely upon the keyboard to access web content cannot access the TITLE text. * Some users of screen magnifiers will not be able to read the TITLE text. * Most users of screen reader software will not be aware of the TITLE text, some will not be not able to read the TITLE text even if they know it is there. I used to have this misconception about title attributes too, that I could assume every browser displayed them the same and screen readers would read them. That's not the case. Now I hardly use title attributes, and instead I put the content into the document where it belongs. To add - If you add a title to a link, some versions of JAWS will read only the title and not the actual link text. It's a maze :-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
On Tuesday, December 13, 2005 2:31 PM Nathan wrote: I'd just like to point out that the alt text does benefit everyone in situations like providing tooltip content You mean everyone who uses Internet Explorer. That's the only browser that treats alt attributes as a tool tip. Modern browsers, Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc. correctly only display the alt attribute if the image is not available. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
On Dec 13, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Jonathan Bloy wrote: You mean everyone who uses Internet Explorer. That's the only browser that treats alt attributes as a tool tip. Modern browsers, Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc. correctly only display the alt attribute if the image is not available. If I am not mistaken, they will display title attribute text. I'm not going any closer to that topic either... - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties
I'm so happy this web stuff is so straight forward and make perfect sense :) To add - If you add a title to a link, some versions of JAWS will read only the title and not the actual link text. It's a maze :-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
Change your css like this:#navcontainer ul{margin: 0;padding: 0;list-style-type: none;text-align: center;}#navcontainer ul li { display: inline; background:url('
http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/button_07.gif'); width:115px; height:26px}#navcontainer ul li a{text-decoration: none;padding: .2em 1em;color: #fff;}#navcontainer ul li a:hover{color: #fff;
}Regards,Elton OkadaRio de Janeiro - BrazilOn 12/13/05, Nathan Wheatley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:I did a little mor elooking around, and I found the following means of
achiving what I am after.Here does:CSS CODE#navcontainer ul{margin: 0;padding: 0;list-style-type: none;text-align: center;}#navcontainer ul li { display: inline; }
#navcontainer ul li a{text-decoration: none;padding: .2em 1em;color: #fff;background-color: #036;}#navcontainer ul li a:hover{color: #fff;background-color: #369;}
HTML CODEdiv id=navcontainerullia href="">lia href="">lia href=""
lia href="">lia href="">/ul/divThe above works perfectly, but I am still a little unsure on how to
set an image as the background of the list items.I need this image(http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/button_07.gif) as the
background to each of the list items, so that the list finally lookslikes this (http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/sprite.gif)[disregard the lighter green background colour. that is fr
demonstration only].Christian, anyone else? Are you able to she some advice or lend a hand?**The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
Gday, I was writing in my blog and was using acronyms and abbreviations and I realised I didn't know something about the right way of doing things, and I'm fairly confident someone here would. This may be off topic because it's a question of accessible and/or semantics. It may be also a little bit persnickety. I understand the difference between acronym and abbreviation, in that an acronym is pronounced as a word, is treated as a word, while an abbreviation is pronounced as a succession of letters. While I was writing, I definately used an abbreviation, created from the first letter of the phrase, eg, HTML. In this case it was one of my uni subjects, ISMR (Information Systems Maintenance and Re-engineering.) But in the next paragraph, I used the same convention of taking the first letter of each word in the phrase to create AIM (Accessible Interactive Multimedia). The Question: Since it can be an acronym, should I mark it up as an acronym, or should I stick to the convention I used earlier in the page to refer to other subjects and use abbreviation? It can be pronounced as the word 'aim' or as each individual letters. What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view? What makes more sense from the semantic point of view? Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death? Kat I have this feeling there's an important point I'm missing somewhere. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
Hi Kat, you've actually got your definitions in the wrong order. An acronym is a word formed from the initial letters of a name, such as WAG. It can be pronounced as 'wag' OR 'W.A.G', depending on your fancy. An abbreviation is just that, the abreviation of a common word for the purpose of brevity where the meaning is still implicit. Though I would dispute implicitness with many examples, particularly US states. ;) Either way, although an acronym is a class of abbreviation, an abbreviation is never a class of acronym. HTH -- Paul A Noone Webmaster, ASHM [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kat Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms Gday, I was writing in my blog and was using acronyms and abbreviations and I realised I didn't know something about the right way of doing things, and I'm fairly confident someone here would. This may be off topic because it's a question of accessible and/or semantics. It may be also a little bit persnickety. I understand the difference between acronym and abbreviation, in that an acronym is pronounced as a word, is treated as a word, while an abbreviation is pronounced as a succession of letters. While I was writing, I definately used an abbreviation, created from the first letter of the phrase, eg, HTML. In this case it was one of my uni subjects, ISMR (Information Systems Maintenance and Re-engineering.) But in the next paragraph, I used the same convention of taking the first letter of each word in the phrase to create AIM (Accessible Interactive Multimedia). The Question: Since it can be an acronym, should I mark it up as an acronym, or should I stick to the convention I used earlier in the page to refer to other subjects and use abbreviation? It can be pronounced as the word 'aim' or as each individual letters. What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view? What makes more sense from the semantic point of view? Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death? Kat I have this feeling there's an important point I'm missing somewhere. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view? What makes more sense from the semantic point of view? Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death? I wrote a long post on this subject a while ago which talks about Abbreviations, Acronyms, Initialisms and Contractions: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg15231.html A hotly debated topic... Also discussed at length here: http://juicystudio.com/article/abbreviations-acronyms.php Problems? 1. Internet Explorers does not support abbr 2. While some assistive devices have the ability to present abbreviations and/or acronyms, this feature often needs to be turned on - in other words it is not a default setting. Some users of assistive devices find this additional information too confusing and would be unlikely to turn on this feature at all. Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
Thanks Elton.
I have tried this however, and it does not work. I can't see why it
does not, but after measuring the pixel height of the buttons the
above outputs, the height is only 15px.
Is there a way to force the 26px height?
Cheers,
Nathan Wheatley
On 12/14/05, Elton Okada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Change your css like this:
#navcontainer ul
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
list-style-type: none;
text-align: center;
}
#navcontainer ul li {
display: inline;
background:url('
http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/button_07.gif');
width:115px;
height:26px
}
#navcontainer ul li a
{
text-decoration: none;
padding: .2em 1em;
color: #fff;
}
#navcontainer ul li a:hover{color: #fff;
}
Regards,
Elton Okada
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
On 12/13/05, Nathan Wheatley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I did a little mor elooking around, and I found the following means of
achiving what I am after.
Here does:
CSS CODE
#navcontainer ul
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
list-style-type: none;
text-align: center;
}
#navcontainer ul li { display: inline; }
#navcontainer ul li a
{
text-decoration: none;
padding: .2em 1em;
color: #fff;
background-color: #036;
}
#navcontainer ul li a:hover
{
color: #fff;
background-color: #369;
}
HTML CODE
div id=navcontainer
ul
lia href=#Milk/a/li
lia href=#Eggs/a/li
lia href=#Cheese/a/li
lia href=#Vegetables/a/li
lia href=#Fruit/a/li
/ul
/div
The above works perfectly, but I am still a little unsure on how to
set an image as the background of the list items.
I need this image
(http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/button_07.gif)
as the
background to each of the list items, so that the list finally looks
likes this
(http://www.chiefcodemonkey.com/awbn/images/sprite.gif)
[disregard the lighter green background colour. that is fr
demonstration only].
Christian, anyone else? Are you able to she some advice or lend a hand?
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
--
--
Nathan Wheatley
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
At the end of the day what are we trying to achieve by using these tags? Does semantically correct code take precedence over usability? IMO, provided you are somehow offering a visible definition of the acronym or abbreviation - be it by use of a specific tag, or the ill-fated title attribute - I think you have achieved your objective. Frankly, at the moment it still seems that ALT and TITLE perform better cross-browser and also have the added benefit of not being mis-applied or misunderstood. Shoot me if you disagree but please, as is tradition, direct any personal abuse to me directly. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 11:19 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view? What makes more sense from the semantic point of view? Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death? I wrote a long post on this subject a while ago which talks about Abbreviations, Acronyms, Initialisms and Contractions: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg15231.html A hotly debated topic... Also discussed at length here: http://juicystudio.com/article/abbreviations-acronyms.php Problems? 1. Internet Explorers does not support abbr 2. While some assistive devices have the ability to present abbreviations and/or acronyms, this feature often needs to be turned on - in other words it is not a default setting. Some users of assistive devices find this additional information too confusing and would be unlikely to turn on this feature at all. Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
G'day Paul Noone wrote: IMO, provided you are somehow offering a visible definition of the acronym or abbreviation - be it by use of a specific tag, or the ill-fated title attribute - I think you have achieved your objective. Or even the traditional way: Web Standards Group (WSG) the first time it is mentioned on the page. Frankly, at the moment it still seems that ALT and TITLE perform better cross-browser and also have the added benefit of not being mis-applied or misunderstood. The alt attribute is of course only applicable on images, while the title attribute does nothing on abbr in MSIE (Windows), since it does not understand abbr. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
On 14 Dec 2005, at 11:19 AM, Nathan Wheatley wrote: it does not work. I can't see why it does not, but after measuring the pixel height of the buttons the above outputs, the height is only 15px. Is there a way to force the 26px height? Add 'line-height: 26px' to your declaration for li... HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
As far as I am aware acronym is deprecated in XHTML 2.0 in favor of abbr? Here is an article on it from Lars Holst which dates back to 2003, but I think that it is still very relevant. http://larsholst.info/blog/index.php?p=14more=1#more14-- __Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft! www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
RE: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
Makes good sense to me. Otherwise why stop at acronym? Next thing you'd have tags for slang, idiom, abstract, outline, summary...the list goes on. What we're trying to do is display a descriptive meaning. All this should be achived by way ofa singleattribute to a tag. I still don't see why althasn't beenimplemeted across the board for this purpose. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James O'NeillSent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 12:40 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms As far as I am aware acronym is deprecated in XHTML 2.0 in favor of abbr? Here is an article on it from Lars Holst which dates back to 2003, but I think that it is still very relevant.http://larsholst.info/blog/index.php?p=14more=1#more14-- __"Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!"www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
I would pose the counter question: agreeing that it could have been done easily enough in CSS, why use a table? No arguments for the table? :) Fair enough. Of course, my opinion differs in that I believe that there is no standard mandating that a table not be used for layout. Personally I'm going with the W3C, since they're the best we have ;) Small-screen devices have a completely different relevancy than many people allow - or admit. But rather than get into a debate over the futility of writing to a Twer of Babel mix of small-screen browsers, I submit that standards-conformant small-screen user agents have no problems linearizing a simple layout table (let's sic the WaSP on the bad guys there). Remember, we're not talking about ugly, messy, nested table layouts as done by Photoshop or Fireworks, we're talking clean, simple, layout tables used to render stable columns. Unless the device actually linearises tables properly, simple/complex doesn't matter - it's tables used yes/no. I wouldn't bet anything on any mobile device getting anything at all right. We've tested quite a few and most of them are absolutely rotten. Have a look at this page: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics_ssi.htm There must be a point here, but I'm not seeing it. Are you trying to suggest we should use SSIs? For one thing, we do. For another.. to separate the layout table from the content you'd have to pepper the file with SSI hooks - not something I'd do. Agreed. And I hope you realize I'm not advocating the use of tables for layout becoming the dominant force in page design :-) It's not entirely clear, but I had guessed that What I'm trying to do is to let people know that if a certain projects and clients could be more efficiently dealt with by using a simple, clean table structure, they don't have to feel stupid, evil, or unclean. There is alleged to be a small faction of intolerant, and somtimes condescending, people within the standards/CSS community. I've found that many developers out there would take that point and turn it into that standards guy said layout tables were fine and spray nested tables and font tags all over their apps again. Give an inch, they'll take ten miles. That's why standardistas can come across as being so inflexible I guess :) Basically though, my stance is that if people are willing to use simple layout tables instead of nested horrors; it's still a step in the right direction. Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. hehehe I'd say that about all web development... h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Abbreviations and Acronyms
[snip] ACRONYM and ABBR I take a fairly simplistic view on this one: 1) Future standards only include ABBR. 2) Acronyms are a form of abbreviation. 3) For the sake of good writing, you should spell out the full term on first use anyway. That covers bad browsers, too. so, I just use ABBR for anything which is a shorter form of another term or phrase. Obviously people don't usually spell out all acronyms, even though we really should. For specific industry terms it would get tedious; so a bit of discretion is good. Write for your audience and so on. h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus
The discussion on CSS Driven? prompted me to query the group on something that has been bothering me for some time; namely, of all the templates available on the web, there are very few that address the academic syllabus--despite the fact that there are thousands (millions?) of syllabi on the web. At first glance, putting a syllabus on the web looks to be a no-brainer, but it strikes me that a syllabus is a special beast and poses some structural and presentational problems. For example, I have been including a table on the schedule page of the course sites to delineate what's to be done when because it seems to be tabular data--week in one column and work (of various kinds) in another. (Yes, I have lived in fear of the Table Police.) I have tried to do the schedule using divs, but it seems hopelessly complicated and not worth the effort. Recently, I've begun to think that the readings are, in fact, a list and should be written accordingly. Using caption seems to pose difficulties. Is it necessary? Should Readings and Internet Visits? be tagged as h3 and styled accordingly? Why not just leave them with their p tags? How to connect the main site with things that apply to all classes to each course? Here are some examples from the past term: http://archiva.net/hist120ay05/hist120ay05_schedule.htm http://www.archiva.net/hist389ay05/hist389ay05_schedule.htm http://www.archiva.net/hist616ay05/hist616ay05_schedule.htm Please note that there are important elements missing, among them skip nav. I have had to do these very quickly but am doing an entire redesign to address these lacunae; these examples will shortly go into the archives along with the really tacky ones. Any advice will be gratefully received. Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus
Looks good, Paula. Again, I think a table is fine for this type of data. I don't understand your problem with the caption. It serves the same purpose as your Week by Week h3 but IMO does it better. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paula Petrik Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2005 4:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus The discussion on CSS Driven? prompted me to query the group on something that has been bothering me for some time; namely, of all the templates available on the web, there are very few that address the academic syllabus--despite the fact that there are thousands (millions?) of syllabi on the web. At first glance, putting a syllabus on the web looks to be a no-brainer, but it strikes me that a syllabus is a special beast and poses some structural and presentational problems. For example, I have been including a table on the schedule page of the course sites to delineate what's to be done when because it seems to be tabular data--week in one column and work (of various kinds) in another. (Yes, I have lived in fear of the Table Police.) I have tried to do the schedule using divs, but it seems hopelessly complicated and not worth the effort. Recently, I've begun to think that the readings are, in fact, a list and should be written accordingly. Using caption seems to pose difficulties. Is it necessary? Should Readings and Internet Visits? be tagged as h3 and styled accordingly? Why not just leave them with their p tags? How to connect the main site with things that apply to all classes to each course? Here are some examples from the past term: http://archiva.net/hist120ay05/hist120ay05_schedule.htm http://www.archiva.net/hist389ay05/hist389ay05_schedule.htm http://www.archiva.net/hist616ay05/hist616ay05_schedule.htm Please note that there are important elements missing, among them skip nav. I have had to do these very quickly but am doing an entire redesign to address these lacunae; these examples will shortly go into the archives along with the really tacky ones. Any advice will be gratefully received. Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus
Paula Petrik wrote: For example, I have been including a table on the schedule page of the course sites to delineate what's to be done when because it seems to be tabular data--week in one column and work (of various kinds) in another. (Yes, I have lived in fear of the Table Police.) I have tried to do the schedule using divs, but it seems hopelessly complicated and not worth the effort... Here are some examples from the past term: http://archiva.net/hist120ay05/hist120ay05_schedule.htm Your use of a table is indeed correct, the data is very much tabular. Please don't live in fear of the table police, anyone who tells you tables should never be used, unconditionally, doesn't know what they're talking about. Tables are only frowned upon when they are used to mark up data that is not even remotely tabular, simply to achieve visual layout. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS and the University Syllabus
Tables are only frowned upon when they are used to mark up data that is not even remotely tabular, simply to achieve visual layout. Yep, especially when nested :-) Just today I came across a site that nests tables up to 9 levels deep. With a menu of 6 links that uses 5.5kB of code. They were trying to sell me their software that generates this rubbish. I'm telling them that until they clean up their act, I wouldn't recommend it if they paid me :-) But they probably don't care. Anyway, I digress. If you have tabular data, put it in a table - that's what they are for! Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
I was just told not to use Pixel values in line heights? I will try anything at this point though. On 12/14/05, Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14 Dec 2005, at 11:19 AM, Nathan Wheatley wrote: it does not work. I can't see why it does not, but after measuring the pixel height of the buttons the above outputs, the height is only 15px. Is there a way to force the 26px height? Add 'line-height: 26px' to your declaration for li... HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- -- Nathan Wheatley ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] li background image
On 12/14/05, Nathan Wheatley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was just told not to use Pixel values in line heights? I will try anything at this point though. LOL, yes, I recommended not to use pixel line heights. Try a value like: line-height:2; and see if that is the equivalent to 24px at default text size. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
