Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
http://www.nornix.com/testsidor/faq This one has very clean HTML markup. /AndersN SunUp skrev: Does anyone know of a method which will toggle the visibility of the FAQ answers while still displaying everything properly without javascript, and that adheres to current best practise for javascript? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Joshua Street wrote: Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the URI structure either. It's running on a Zeus web server, which has some weird-ass mod_rewrite equivalent, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to use it. As for why 301 redirects, I explicitly asked for that after carefully explaining that it couldn't EVER be moved from where the 301 pointed. Prior to launch we were using 302 redirects, which (mainly for search engine reasons... though I'll admit I only ever think about Google, not Yahoo ;-)) I wasn't happy with. Hence, 301 redirects are the lesser of two evils, and I'm assured it's not going to move! I wouldn't believe that. In fact, here's a perfect example of why 301 shouldn't have been used. On Today Tonight (another 7 network program, for those of you not in Australia), the host made a point of it to emphasise that the address had changed to: http://yahoo7.com.au/todaytonight The old site address has been this for a long time: http://seven.com.au/todaytonight I expected to get a redirect from the old site to the new site, but I didn't. So, I went to the new site address and guess what! I got a redirect from the *new* Yahoo7 address to the *old* (well, still current) address. Plus, it's a 301 Moved Permanently, so once they realise their mistake (assuming this is one, and not just some bogus advertising attempt) and they attempt to rectify it by redirecting in the other direction using a 301, I wonder what will happen with caches that still believe yahoo7.com.au is a permanent redirect to seven.com.au. I've never tried setting up a loop like that, but I'd imagine the results won't be too effective. Another thing, if they do decide to switch to redirection to work the other way, and when the deal between Yahoo and 7 expires, and they go back to the current address, it'll screw everything up. Trust me, they've gone through so many URIs in the last 6 years, it's not funny. There's i7.com.au, aol7.com.au (no longer belongs to 7 network), seven.com.au, sevennetwork.com.au, yahoo7.com.au and probably many more I'm unaware of. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
On 1/30/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: I'm assured it's not going to move! I wouldn't believe that. In fact, here's a perfect example of why 301 shouldn't have been used. On Today Tonight (another 7 network program, for those of you not in Australia), the host made a point of it to emphasise that the address had changed to: http://yahoo7.com.au/todaytonight The old site address has been this for a long time: http://seven.com.au/todaytonight I expected to get a redirect from the old site to the new site, but I didn't. So, I went to the new site address and guess what! I got a redirect from the *new* Yahoo7 address to the *old* (well, still current) address. Plus, it's a 301 Moved Permanently, so once they realise their mistake (assuming this is one, and not just some bogus advertising attempt) and they attempt to rectify it by redirecting in the other direction using a 301, I wonder what will happen with caches that still believe yahoo7.com.au is a permanent redirect to seven.com.au. I've never tried setting up a loop like that, but I'd imagine the results won't be too effective. Another thing, if they do decide to switch to redirection to work the other way, and when the deal between Yahoo and 7 expires, and they go back to the current address, it'll screw everything up. Trust me, they've gone through so many URIs in the last 6 years, it's not funny. There's i7.com.au, aol7.com.au (no longer belongs to 7 network), seven.com.au, sevennetwork.com.au, yahoo7.com.au and probably many more I'm unaware of. Yeah. However, for the Sunrise Family site, _our_ redirection (not that who 'they' and 'we' are actually matters to end users, but I feel a need to justify poor URI planning as being someone elses fault!) is purely internal. Apparently it's being promoted on the show as http://yahoo7.com.au/sunrise/ -- and they're expecting people to click through, rather than providing a direct link even when promoting it. Strikes me as being a odd (politics, surely), but completely out of our control. As for Seven's scattered history, it amused me to today discover an add for iPrimus on NineMSN.com.au ;-) Despite that, this one looks more certain for a handful of reasons... the Yahoo7 press release gives some clues, but it seems like Yahoo are hoping to basically head up Seven's online presence... and Seven seem to be complying. Should be interesting to watch unfold! ... mind you, all that is rather off topic, apologies! Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
At 05:44 PM 1/29/2006, SunUp wrote:
Does anyone know of a method which will toggle the visibility of the
FAQ answers while still displaying everything properly without
javascript, and that adheres to current best practise for javascript?
Hmm. The text-toggling examples folks have posted on this topic use
{display: none} to hide text. I'm under the impression that some
screen readers will not speak text that's been hidden with {display: none}. [1]
If so, then it would make much more sense to use a technique like this:
hide:
position: absolute;
left: -1000em;
show:
position: static;
or:
position: relative;
or:
left: N;
...depending on the application.
This would guarantee that the text would always be accessible to
screen-readers even when hidden from display -- the same sort of
graceful degradation we expect of toggle systems when JavaScript is disabled.
Regards,
Paul
_
[1] A few references on this topic easily revealed by googling
display+none+screen+reader:
ScreenreaderVisibility CSS-D wiki
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ScreenreaderVisibility
What do Screen Readers really say? by Bob Easton
http://eleaston.com/bob/screenreader-visibility.html
Facts and Opinion About Fahrner Image Replacement by Joe Clark
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
Screen readers and display: none by Simon Willison
http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2003/09/13/screenReaders
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Re: [WSG] css flyout menu (must work in IE 5.5/ 6)?
I have a simple CSS vertical menu, nothing fancy, no graphic used for background. Client wants to add extra pages in one of the menu tab, I have PV II MM2 but really prefer not to use it as it requires me to change all menu tabs and turn the css background color to graphic (unless I am mistaken!). Did a quick search on WSG archives as well as css-discuss.incutio, I can't find anything. Am I mistaken that the CSS drop-down menu technique of PIE, TJKDesign and Suckerfish can't make to flyout? HTML Dog has an example (at bottom of article) of a vertical (flyout) menu using a revised suckerfish technique: http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ Cheers Nathan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Joshua Street wrote: Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/meet/ No problems seen using Firefox 1.07 on XP Pro. Regards Jason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh Hi Josh, While on the topic of rendering bugs I just thought I would mention that in Opera 9 beta there is some funky stuff happening with the scrolling div on the deals page (http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/deals/). It's quite probable that this is just an Opera rendering bug (version 9 is beta after all) but if you're interested you could check it out . cheers, Justin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Many thanks. I'd only tested Opera in 8.5x (because, IMO, it's reasonable to assume if people are using Opera they're probably going to be people who bother upgrading their software!), so I'll be sure to take a look :-) On 1/30/06, Justin Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh Hi Josh, While on the topic of rendering bugs I just thought I would mention that in Opera 9 beta there is some funky stuff happening with the scrolling div on the deals page (http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/deals/). It's quite probable that this is just an Opera rendering bug (version 9 is beta after all) but if you're interested you could check it out . cheers, Justin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Head and Title elements
Hi All, Another Monday, but this time two articles for the price of one. This week I've took a look at the head element and the title element. The latterturned out to be more interesting than I thought it might be, especially considering the accessibility angle. It'll be interesting to see other views on it.Regards,-- Karl Dawson http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk-- Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/-- The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect. Tim Berners-Lee - W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web
[WSG] Web Site Template Review
Dear co-members, we would kindly appreciate if you could have a look and give us a feedback on our web site redesign template, which may be viewed here: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/ Especially we are concerned about: 1. Markup and Semantic issues; 2. OS/Browser/Screen Resolution compatibility; 3. Accessibility; 4. Usability. Thanks a lot in advance for your kind support. Best wishes and regards, John S. Britsios http://www.webnauts.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Would love help from Xaraya users
Im not sure how to post to the CMS list so this may be in the wrong place. Id like to know if there are any WSG members using Xaraya, and if your willing to answer a few beginers questions etc - I have been looking a documentation but would like to find out peoples opinions on the systems and possibly if anyone has experience writing custom modules for Xaraya. Thanks, [RB] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
Two quick things. Your primary navigation list doesn't need to use pipe separators. It'd be much better to just use borders with CSS to achieve this. Also, maybe consider a skip to login as well as your skip to main content link. It makes things faster than tabbing through all the links between the top of the page and the form :-) Josh On 1/30/06, John S. Britsios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear co-members, we would kindly appreciate if you could have a look and give us a feedback on our web site redesign template, which may be viewed here: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/ Especially we are concerned about: 1. Markup and Semantic issues; 2. OS/Browser/Screen Resolution compatibility; 3. Accessibility; 4. Usability. Thanks a lot in advance for your kind support. Best wishes and regards, John S. Britsios http://www.webnauts.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Screen readers and JavaScript WAS: Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
On 1/30/06, Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the toggle function have to be connected to a a element, or do JS-enabled screen readers recognize onClick events attached to other elements? To add to this question, what happens where screen readers with JavaScript result in an element's content changing? The change in the document isn't neccessarily linear (i.e. immediately after the present element) -- do screen readers notify users that content has changed? How do they interact with this new material? Is there any way to set the screen reader's 'focus' as with internal anchor references, without impacting normal browsers? Hope this makes some sense... Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
SunUp wrote: Hi folks, I'm doing an FAQ page, and want to make it so only the questions appear on page load, then when selected, the answers appear below them. A toggle effect. You know. I've found a couple of methods: http://www.netlobo.com/div_hiding.html http://www.mindsack.com/toggle/ I've just finished writing this: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/toggle_elements.asp HTH, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site Review
Hello all,Please can you review and give comment on the following:http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.htmlThanks in advanceDarren
RE: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
Anders Nawroth Does the toggle function have to be connected to a a element, or do JS-enabled screen readers recognize onClick events attached to other elements? The function needs to be attached to an element that receives focus, i.e. an element that users can tab to via the keyboard. Links, form elements, image map areas and objects. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
Looks like some good work has gone into this! The source is easy to read,
which is handy. However, especially for accessibility, some quick things you
could improve are:
1. dont use: span class=boldExternal Quality Web Sites/span - use
headings instead. i.e. h3External Quality Web Sites/h3 would be much
more semantically correct.
2. you don't have a h1 telling non-visual users who you are and possibly
what you do (tag line). Ideally, you should include a h1 (even if you use
CSS to hide it visually) above your skip link.
3. I noticed a p tag without a closing tag - so make sure you validate
your pages (this is actually a WSG requirement :)
The other general comment I would make is to try and keep your markup to a
minimal. For example:
div class=header
div class=layout
ul title=Top Navigation
lia class=top name=main id=main href=#content title=Go to the
main content [accesskey=1] accesskey=1Skip to main content/a/li
/ul
/div
/div
Could be simplified to:
div id=header
h1Webnauts - Leading experience network/h1
ul
lia href=#content title=Go to the main content [accesskey=1]
accesskey=1Skip to main content/a/li
/ul
/div
You will notice for starters I changed your header 'class' to an 'id' (as
you will only ever have one header to your document - right?). Layout seemed
to be adding no structural meaning, so I got rid of it. I added the nice
h1 in so low/no vision users no whoes page they are visiting and what you
do and I cleaned up the ul and li
so for your css you can control the styles by doing stuff like:
#header h1 {
position: absolute;
left: -5000px
width: 500px;
}
#header ul {
...
}
#header ul li {
...
}
#header li a {
...
}
etc. etc.
Hope this helps! keep up the good work
Cheers
Nathan
- Original Message -
From: John S. Britsios [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
Dear co-members,
we would kindly appreciate if you could have a look and give us a feedback
on our web site redesign template, which may be viewed here:
http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/
Especially we are concerned about:
1. Markup and Semantic issues;
2. OS/Browser/Screen Resolution compatibility;
3. Accessibility;
4. Usability.
Thanks a lot in advance for your kind support.
Best wishes and regards,
John S. Britsios
http://www.webnauts.net
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Darren, on Monday, January 30, 2006 at 12:26 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.html You've got some problems in your HTML: 1. with/height attributes of img tags don't accept units. 2. the inputs need name attributes (but I guess you will add these later) You should provide some alt-Text for the images of the properties. A page title would be nice ;-) Maybe you should wrap the ie7 script in a conditional comment for only IE using it. The use of strong in: pImage strong1/strong of strong10/strong/p isn't very semantic IMHO, but substituting it by span doesn't add much value too. For the address I'd use a definition list: dl id=agent dtAcme Estate Agents/dt ddThe White House/dd ddLodge Road/dd ddNW4 4DD/dd ddTel: 0208 457 4777/dd ddFax: 0208 457 4765/dd dda href=contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/dd /dl instead of: div id=agent h2Acme Estate Agents/h2 pThe White Housebr / Lodge Roadbr / Londonbr / NW4 4DD/p pTel: 0208 457 4777/p pFax: 0208 457 4765/p pa href=contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/p /div You could also add some classes for defining the microformat. regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Title: Re: [WSG] Site Review No title? Using Team makes no sense to me but maybe because its early. Join Team screams for a The in middle. Find property is above the header. I can understand accessibility options being above but Find Property? Maybe list the items (each sale block) Check the CSS Validation. You left a few items on your localhost. Zach // zachinglis.com At 30/1/06 11:26: Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Please can you review and give comment on the following: http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.html Thanks in advance Darren
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Hi Darren, The markup look pretty slick! My only comment would be around your use of the strong element. For example: pProperty strong3/strong of strong500/strong found/p Have you ever heard a screen reader when it hits strong elements? For this reason I suggest just using a span and 'class' instead to create the bold visual effect - just a personal preference of mine!! Also, maybe for the price you could doing this to improve accessibility. For example, you have: pstrong£450,000/strong/p whereas you can create the same effect visually, but improve (in my opinion) semantics and accessibility by doing something like: h3 class="hide"Price/h3 p class="price"£450,000/p Anyway, my suggestions are neither here nore there and probably more about my our personal preferences more than anything else. Cheers Nathan - Original Message - From: Darren West To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: [WSG] Site Review Hello all,Please can you review and give comment on the following:http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.htmlhttp://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.htmlThanks in advanceDarren
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Thanks Nathan,I have removed the strong elements and replaced them with a class for the price, I will have a think regarding the H3 as the context is already set and their is no other monetary data on screen. Do you have a recommended screen reader for testing?DazOn 30/01/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Darren, The markup look pretty slick! My only comment would be around your use of the strong element. For example: pProperty strong3/strong of strong500/strong found/p Have you ever heard a screen reader when it hits strong elements? For this reason I suggest just using a span and 'class' instead to create the bold visual effect - just a personal preference of mine!! Also, maybe for the price you could doing this to improve accessibility. For example, you have: pstrong£450,000/strong/p whereas you can create the same effect visually, but improve (in my opinion) semantics and accessibility by doing something like: h3 class=hidePrice/h3 p class=price£450,000/p Anyway, my suggestions are neither here nore there and probably more about my our personal preferences more than anything else. Cheers Nathan - Original Message - From: Darren West To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: [WSG] Site Review Hello all,Please can you review and give comment on the following:http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.htmlThanks in advanceDarren
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Thanks Martin,I have sorted all issues highlighted apart from the DL for the address as only one item will ever appear - would DL still be appropriate? and microformats leave with me.Daz On 30/01/06, Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darren,on Monday, January 30, 2006 at 12:26 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.htmlYou've got some problems in your HTML:1. with/height attributes of img tags don't accept units. 2. the inputs need name attributes (but I guess you will add these later)You should provide some alt-Text for the images of the properties.A page title would be nice ;-)Maybe you should wrap the ie7 script in a conditional comment for only IE using it.The use of strong in:pImage strong1/strong of strong10/strong/pisn't very semantic IMHO, but substituting it by span doesn't add much value too.For the address I'd use a definition list:dl id=agentdtAcme Estate Agents/dtddThe White House/Lodge Road/dd ddNW4 4DD/Tel: 0208 457 4777/Fax: 0208 457 4765/a href="" Agent/a/dd/dl instead of:div id=agenth2Acme Estate Agents/h2pThe White Housebr /Lodge Roadbr /Londonbr / NW4 4DD/ppTel: 0208 457 4777/ppFax: 0208 457 4765/ppa href="" Agent/a/p /divYou could also add some classes for defining the microformat.regardsMartin**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css flyout menu (must work in IE 5.5/ 6)?
From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Greetings, I have a simple CSS vertical menu, nothing fancy, no graphic used for background. Client wants to add extra pages in one of the menu tab, I have PV II MM2 but really prefer not to use it as it requires me to change all menu tabs and turn the css background color to graphic (unless I am mistaken!). Any idea? Hi Tee, MM2 is a legacy system, released in early 2002. You might want to have a look at our more modern systems. The so-called pure CSS menus simply use CSS for behavior in modern browsers, while falling back to javascript for the overwhelming majority of browsers. This is a hot topic, but not one I would have the time to debate in this forum. Those menus can be made to do multiple flyouts, but present usability issues to people using a mouse. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
Hello all I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG- "untick this box if you don't want to receive emails" would beillegal for a UK site. Could anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong and if possible give me some credible links to back this up?Thanks heaps, Paul Collins
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
On 1/30/06, John S. Britsios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Especially we are concerned about:
4. Usability.
I really like the liquid layout but to make it usable, I recommend a
max-width. Test different max width options and find one that gives an
optimal line-length for the main content text. Use an em width value
rather than a px width value for the max-width if you want to be
ultra-accessible.
While we are on the subject of widths, the right column in this layout
would be much better served by an em width than a px one. Just look at
how the form overflows the column on one text-size-increase.
here's what I get with firefox developer extension live-css-edit:
div.container { max-width:55em; /* makes a nice line length */ }
#navlist { width:16em; }
#div.side-nav { width:15em; }
#div.content { margin-right:15em; }
--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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[WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC
Hi, This my first website using CSS. I've gotten most of the bugs out of it except for one on the home page. For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. Not sure why. I've messed around with the CSS, but nothing corrects it. It only happens on IE. I'm using a PC with Windows XP Home (latest version) and IE v. 6. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) http://www.stevenmaslach.com/css/styles.css (css file location) Thanks, spellmank ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Should an agent's address really be a definition list?? If you want that sort of semantic pedantry, the markup should be: block tag hxAcme Estate Agents/hx dl dtAddress/dt dd The...Housebr/ Lodge Roa...4DD/dd dtTelephone/dt dd0208 457 4777/dd... /dl /block tag I DO think that definition lists are over used and often misused. They should really only be used for concise definitions. An list of untitled contact details does not constitute a concise definition of an agent. Otherwise, the idea of web data becoming machine-readable is defeated. Stephen On 30 Jan 2006, at 11:48, Martin Heiden wrote: Darren, on Monday, January 30, 2006 at 12:26 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.html You've got some problems in your HTML: 1. with/height attributes of img tags don't accept units. 2. the inputs need name attributes (but I guess you will add these later) You should provide some alt-Text for the images of the properties. A page title would be nice ;-) Maybe you should wrap the ie7 script in a conditional comment for only IE using it. The use of strong in: pImage strong1/strong of strong10/strong/p isn't very semantic IMHO, but substituting it by span doesn't add much value too. For the address I'd use a definition list: dl id=agent dtAcme Estate Agents/dt ddThe White House/dd ddLodge Road/dd ddNW4 4DD/dd ddTel: 0208 457 4777/dd ddFax: 0208 457 4765/dd dda href=contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/dd /dl instead of: div id=agent h2Acme Estate Agents/h2 pThe White Housebr / Lodge Roadbr / Londonbr / NW4 4DD/p pTel: 0208 457 4777/p pFax: 0208 457 4765/p pa href=contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/p /div You could also add some classes for defining the microformat. regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review
How about the list of class 'properties', should that be an un-ordered list?DazOn 30/01/06, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Should an agent's address really be a definition list?? If you want that sort of semantic pedantry, the markup should be:block taghxAcme Estate Agents/hxdldtAddress/dtddThe...Housebr/ Lodge Roa...4DD/dddtTelephone/dtdd0208 457 4777/dd.../dl/block tagI DO think that definition lists are over used and often misused. They should really only be used for concise definitions.An list ofuntitled contact details does not constitute a concise definition ofan agent.Otherwise, the idea of web data becoming machine-readableis defeated. StephenOn 30 Jan 2006, at 11:48, Martin Heiden wrote: Darren, on Monday, January 30, 2006 at 12:26 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/properties.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/2/propertydetails.html You've got some problems in your HTML: 1. with/height attributes of img tags don't accept units. 2. the inputs need name attributes (but I guess you will add theselater) You should provide some alt-Text for the images of the properties. A page title would be nice ;-) Maybe you should wrap the ie7 script in a conditional comment for only IE using it. The use of strong in: pImage strong1/strong of strong10/strong/p isn't very semantic IMHO, but substituting it by span doesn't add much value too. For the address I'd use a definition list: dl id=agent dtAcme Estate Agents/dt ddThe White House/dd ddLodge Road/dd ddNW4 4DD/dd ddTel: 0208 457 4777/dd ddFax: 0208 457 4765/dd dda href="" Email Agent/a/dd /dl instead of: div id=agent h2Acme Estate Agents/h2 pThe White Housebr / Lodge Roadbr / Londonbr / NW4 4DD/p pTel: 0208 457 4777/p pFax: 0208 457 4765/p pa href="" contactagent.htmlEmail Agent/a/p /div You could also add some classes for defining the microformat. regards Martin ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
Paul, I think you are way off topic here. If you want to contact me directly I'd be happy to help [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Paul CollinsSent: 30 January 2006 15:33To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law) Hello all I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG- "untick this box if you don't want to receive emails" would beillegal for a UK site. Could anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong and if possible give me some credible links to back this up?Thanks heaps, Paul Collins
Re: [WSG] Site Review
Stephen, on Monday, January 30, 2006 at 17:01 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: Should an agent's address really be a definition list?? I only wrote that I would do it that way. If you want that sort of semantic pedantry, the markup should be: block tag hxAcme Estate Agents/hx dl dtAddress/dt dd The...Housebr/ Lodge Roa...4DD/dd dtTelephone/dt dd0208 457 4777/dd... /dl /block tag I DO think that definition lists are over used and often misused. I do think that your advice is a misusage of the dl. What you define is a table. You substitute th by dt and td by dd. I don't think that definition lists are meant like that. For addressing the machine readability I'd choose hcard microformat. But I think that discussing this won't bring us any further... There were lots of threads on this list discussing how to markup an address and I don't think that there is the ONE way to do it right. Everyone has to choose his/her way... regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] missing menu: rendering bug in Firefox?
I've solved the problem... The flash movie had the same id than its div container: I misused the flash object script from Geoff Stearns, and the CSS got mixed up. I should know better, sorry. Roberto - Roberto Gorjão wrote: Olá a todos, In this page - http://www.ouronor.com/problems/maquete.htm - I have a semi-hidden menu (flash inside a div). This menu has only a visible tip which is right below the logo. If you press it, the menu slides down... well, it should, but Firefox (only in windows, curiously) is the only browser that refuses to acknowledge its presence there. Funny thing: if you roll down the page till its end and back again, it starts working. Does anyone know how to solve this? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hmm. The text-toggling examples folks have posted on this topic
use {display: none} to hide text. I'm under the impression that
some screen readers will not speak text that's been hidden with
{display: none}.
At 05:04 AM 1/30/2006, Al Sparber wrote:
JAWS presents the onClick event. But if supporting older, or more
poorly written readers, you would need to use positioning trick, I imagine :-)
Sorry, but aren't these apples oranges? The triggering event is
one thing, the disappearing technique another. What I'm reading (or
perhaps misreading) is that even screen readers that respond to the
onclick method might not present text that's previously been hidden
with {display: none}.
Not having a screen reader to test on, I'd appreciate hearing from
someone who does:
When the styling for a block of text is changed from {display: none}
to {display: block} or {display: inline}, does your reader begin
reading it immediately? Or does it simply add that text into the
body of the page for eventual reading?
The reason I'm asking is that I've seen many cases in which the text
that's toggled doesn't immediately follow the link that triggers the
toggle, e.g.:
a href=#Toggle switch/a
h3Some intervening text or heading./h3
divThe text that suddenly appears./div
...or even where the trigger follows the text:
divThe text that suddenly appears./div
a href=#Toggle switch/a
If the user's reading point in the page is suddenly moved to the
toggled text block, an obvious inclusion in best practices would be
to mark up the toggled text immediately following the trigger without
any intervening content.
Paul
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[WSG] IE Weirdness
Surprise!
I am having a problem with IE6 on an internal Intranet page (hense no URL)
Here's my HTML:
p class=sectionstrongPRINTING/strong/p
p style=background-color:#f5f6f8;a href=# target=_blankGlobal
Interprint/a/p
pa href=# target=_blankInternational Printers Network/a/p
CSS:
div#main div.contentheadfull{background:url(../images/colors/blue.gif) top
left repeat-x; width:100%;}
div#main div.contentheadfull p{font-weight:bold; color:#000; height:18px;
padding:.5em; margin-top:-3px;}
div#main div.contentheadfull p a{font-weight:normal; padding:0; margin:0;}
div#main div.contentheadfull p a:hover{font-weight:normal; color:#6886B3;
padding:0; margin:0;}
div#main div.links{background-color:#fff; padding:0; margin:-6px 0 0 0;}
div#main div.links p{padding:.5em;}
div#main div.links p.section{padding:.5em;}
When an IE user hits this, the inline style for the background-color on the
second p doesn't show until you hover over the link in that p.
To add to the matter, we have a flash navigation bar at the top of the page
which is in a div with a higher index than the content in question. Although
the nav div is always on the page (ie. No visibility or display changes),
when a button in the flash nav is hovered over - expanding a menu (all of
this is occurring in one flash file - which is always on the page) the
background-color of the p above disappears again.
Any help would be appreciated. Even a stab in the dark. I see no reason for
this to be happening.
TIA
--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com
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Re: [WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC
Maybe give #169; a shot instead of copy; ... not certain, but it may help. Love the design, by the way. On 1/31/06, Kara Spellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, This my first website using CSS. I've gotten most of the bugs out of it except for one on the home page. For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. Not sure why. I've messed around with the CSS, but nothing corrects it. It only happens on IE. I'm using a PC with Windows XP Home (latest version) and IE v. 6. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) http://www.stevenmaslach.com/css/styles.css (css file location) Thanks, spellmank ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE Weirdness
Tom Livingston wrote: p style=background-color:#f5f6f8;a href=# target=_blankGlobal Interprint/a/p There aren't any div#main or div.links ANYWHERE in the html you pasted. I'm assuming they are outer containers. Add the !important declaration to the inline style. That should over-ride the stylesheet: p style=background-color:#f5f6f8 !important;a href=# target=_blankGlobal Interprint/a/p we have a flash navigation bar at the top of the page I have no suggestions for this. I despise and avoid flash as much as possible :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
This is the only time I've ever seen a form inside a fieldset, instead of the other way around. I can't even find an example of it that way at w3.org. I know it's valid, but are there any drawbacks to doing it this way? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC
Thanks for both the compliment and #169; suggestion Joshua. However, changing copy; to #169; didn't work. It's the weirdest thing. Kara On Jan 30, 2006, at 3:54 PM, Joshua Street wrote: Maybe give #169; a shot instead of copy; ... not certain, but it may help. Love the design, by the way. On 1/31/06, Kara Spellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, This my first website using CSS. I've gotten most of the bugs out of it except for one on the home page. For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. Not sure why. I've messed around with the CSS, but nothing corrects it. It only happens on IE. I'm using a PC with Windows XP Home (latest version) and IE v. 6. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) http://www.stevenmaslach.com/css/styles.css (css file location) Thanks, spellmank ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE Weirdness
On 1/30/06 4:02 PM, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no suggestions for this. I despise and avoid flash as much as possible :) OK. Thanks. I think the Flash nav's life is about to end... ;-) -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] use alpha transparent png mask - was: Display problem in IE for the PC
I like the design as well, but I think you're missing a bit of css potential. Instead of putting the fade onto your images, use a background image with alpha transparent png that sits on top of the image. The image would be solid on the outside, transparent square in the middle and have the fade transition. For IE6, I would suggest sending a different background image via conditional comment that uses index transparent gif. But remember, IE7 is on the horizon and allows full alpha transparent png support. We need to start thinking about the future and not locking our pages into 2005/IE6 era. That would allow you to load new images without the photoshop work. If you put it as a div ontop of your image, it would even do a bit to protect from people right clicking and saving the image. Of course, they could always disable styles and do it that way. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Street Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 12:55 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC Maybe give #169; a shot instead of copy; ... not certain, but it may help. Love the design, by the way. On 1/31/06, Kara Spellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, This my first website using CSS. I've gotten most of the bugs out of it except for one on the home page. For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. Not sure why. I've messed around with the CSS, but nothing corrects it. It only happens on IE. I'm using a PC with Windows XP Home (latest version) and IE v. 6. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) http://www.stevenmaslach.com/css/styles.css (css file location) Thanks, spellmank ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
On 1/30/06, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 05:44 PM 1/29/2006, SunUp wrote:
Does anyone know of a method which will toggle the visibility of the
FAQ answers while still displaying everything properly without
javascript, and that adheres to current best practise for javascript?
Hmm. The text-toggling examples folks have posted on this topic use
{display: none} to hide text. I'm under the impression that some
screen readers will not speak text that's been hidden with {display: none}.
[1]
I'm wondering if that includes my method. You can revisit the 2nd
reply to this question to see the method I mentioned, but here's how
the event works:
The toggle link is:
a id=membershow class=toggle href=#[Show text]/a
notice there is no onclick!
Then the CSS is:
* { display:block; }
not display:none;
In the JS is where everything happens:
setElementStyleById(exec, display, none);
document.getElementById(execshow).onclick = function() { ... }
Now, the question is whether this still fails in screen readers with
JS. I really can't tell, because I can't test it. I imagine that if
the links are encountered in the context, they can be handled
allright, and the text that appears comes right after the link in the
markup. If the user is just hearing the links on the page, then these
links definitely don't make much sense. But I'm thinking this method
works out in the end... even if on first past, the user can't tell
what they are supposed to do (all they hear is header Executive Board
link [show text] header Members link [show text] etc. etc.), at least
this is better than hearing all the text on the page at once, which
involves going through e-mail address after e-mail address after
e-mail address.[1] I know I can't prove this because I can't test it,
but I have seen how a screen reader works (I think it was JAWS) and I
think I would rather work with this page than the page without
Javascript (a laundry list of e-mails).
[1] then again screen reader users rarely go through text linearly,
but rather jump around through lines, paragraphs, etc. In that case
this JS might not be helpful... but as for why there isn't a way to
detect the use of a screen reader with JS, I don't know.
--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
A form inside a fieldset? [EMAIL PROTECTED]@[EMAIL PROTECTED] Come on everyone, where's the outrage? I remember trying to use a fieldset outside a form and had to don the asbestos fire suit. Seriously, I don't see any benefit to putting the fieldset outside a form. I would assume it's just sloppy coding. What's the justification for doing it backwards? Ted www.tdrake.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenny Graham Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 1:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review This is the only time I've ever seen a form inside a fieldset, instead of the other way around. I can't even find an example of it that way at w3.org. I know it's valid, but are there any drawbacks to doing it this way? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE Weirdness
On 1/30/06 4:02 PM, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Add the !important declaration to the inline style. That should over-ride the stylesheet: Adding !important had no effect. Still on the hunt... -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC
Kara Spellman wrote: For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) Remove this comment ( just above div id=content ) from source-code... !-- InstanceEndEditable -- ...and the 'duplicate character' bug will no longer appear in IE/win. That bug is triggered by html-comments, so whenever it shows up; try deleting or rearranging/reposition such comments in source. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry, but aren't these apples oranges? The triggering event is
one thing, the disappearing technique another. What I'm reading (or
perhaps misreading) is that even screen readers that respond to the
onclick method might not present text that's previously been hidden
with {display: none}.
Not having a screen reader to test on, I'd appreciate hearing from
someone who does:
When the styling for a block of text is changed from {display: none}
to {display: block} or {display: inline}, does your reader begin
reading it immediately? Or does it simply add that text into the
body of the page for eventual reading?
I have a copy of JAWS 5.1 on a system. I'll try to check it out. If
you're right, it's a good point. Scripts that rely on CSS rules should
be easy to adapt. If you find anything out before I do, please post or
fire me a line offlist.
Thanks.
--
Al
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Re: [WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC
Thanks Georg! That did the trick. Kara On Jan 30, 2006, at 4:27 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Kara Spellman wrote: For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) Remove this comment ( just above div id=content ) from source- code... !-- InstanceEndEditable -- ...and the 'duplicate character' bug will no longer appear in IE/win. That bug is triggered by html-comments, so whenever it shows up; try deleting or rearranging/reposition such comments in source. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
In the AustralianIT there is an article about the new redesign of the Sunbeam website (www.sunbeam.com.au). I looked it up and it seems to fit Joe Clark's description of a Failed Redesign. http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17957834%5E24169%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html My question is: is web-standards really considered a part of the professionalism of web people considering that even the IT media (AustralianIT) ignores this aspect? Admittedly, it comes from the same people who confused AJAX with the Dutch Ajax Football team :) Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here on this list and can explain why they have chosen what they have? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
Kat wrote: In the AustralianIT there is an article about the new redesign of the Sunbeam website (www.sunbeam.com.au). I looked it up and it seems to fit Joe Clark's description of a Failed Redesign. http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17957834%5E24169%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html Yes, it certainly does. There's some hilarious mistakes in there, like intentionally choosing a DOCTYPE that triggers quirks mode, intentionally using JavaScript1.2, and even sticking a style element within a table?! My question is: is web-standards really considered a part of the professionalism of web people considering that even the IT media (AustralianIT) ignores this aspect? It is among those who truly are web professionals. AustralianIT aren't web professionals, they're reporters and they don't seem very interested in the web, let alone web standards communities. Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here... I almost applied for a job with Clear Blue Day about 2 years ago, but their job application required me do download a zip file with pre-sliced images and a screenshot of the final page and was asked to build it. It was obvious that the images were sliced in a way most suited to table based layouts and even included a spacer gif. So, I decided not to bother with them. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Equal Height Columns vanishing in IE
Hi guys, I'm using the Equal Height Columns technique from PIE's 'One True Layout', along with the Any Order Columns technique from the same. It works fine in Firefox, and used to work fine in IE, too. That was when I was using the Jello Mold technique to size the site. Now, however, the word from on high is that they want it to just be a fixed width layout. Fine. No problem. I edited the style sheet and removed the superfluous divs. IE hates me (and it's mutual). It's not showing any of the content columns, and just displaying the footer right under the header. Can someone please have a quick peek and tell me why this is happening? I can't seem to find what I've done wrong, and I'm sure it's just that I've removed something I shouldn't have. Page: http://staging.renovate.com.au CSS: http://staging.renovate.com.au/_resources/pageShell.css Cheers, Seona.
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
I believe this question would fall within the scope of this group. Anyway I would be very interested to know the answer to this, with a link to the related legislation. Giles Clark wrote: Paul, I think you are way off topic here. If you want to contact me directly I'd be happy to help [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Paul Collins *Sent:* 30 January 2006 15:33 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law) Hello all I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG - untick this box if you don't want to receive emails would be illegal for a UK site. Could anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong and if possible give me some credible links to back this up? Thanks heaps, Paul Collins ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
On 31 Jan 2006, at 12:33 am, Paul Collins wrote: I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG - untick this box if you don't want to receive emails would be illegal for a UK site. That would be European Community law, not only UK law. And yes, I believe this to be correct. You have to make this 'opt- in', default being 'opt-out'. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
Just out of curiosity, what about Tick this box if you don't want to receive massive amounts of spam? Is it really anti-checked box, or anti-default-opt-in? Seems pretty... open to abuse and/or re-interpretation, unless it's the latter. On 1/31/06, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31 Jan 2006, at 12:33 am, Paul Collins wrote: I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG - untick this box if you don't want to receive emails would be illegal for a UK site. That would be European Community law, not only UK law. And yes, I believe this to be correct. You have to make this 'opt- in', default being 'opt-out'. Philippe ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
Richard Czeiger wrote: I agree - I think the areas of Web Standards and Best Practices should go side by side. If one country has decided to actually legislate on something then it's at least worth discussing. I fail to see how the UK's anti-spam law is relevant to web standards...but nonetheless: IANAL, but the reference I can find is The Directive on Privacy and Electronic Communications (2002/58/EC) http://www.dti.gov.uk/industries/ecommunications/directive_on_privacy_electronic_communications_200258ec.html extends controls on unsolicited direct marketing to all forms of electronic communications including unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE or Spam) and SMS to mobile telephones; UCE and SMS will be subject to a prior consent requirement [ed. an opt-in], so the receiver is required to agree to it in advance, except in the context of an existing customer relationship, where companies may continue to email or SMS to market their own similar products on an 'opt-out' basis; This is in line, as Philippe mentioned, with the European directive http://europa.eu.int/information_society/policy/ecomm/todays_framework/privacy_protection/spam/index_en.htm Article 13(1) of the Privacy and Electronic Communications Directive requires Member States to prohibit the sending of unsolicited commercial communications by fax or e-mail or other electronic messaging systems such as SMS and MMS unless the prior consent of the addressee has been obtained (opt-in system). The only exception to this rule is in cases where contact details for sending e-mail or SMS messages (but not faxes) have been obtained in the context of a sale. Within such an existing customer relationship the company who obtained the data may use them for the marketing of similar products or services as those it has already sold to the customer. Nevertheless, even then the company has to make clear from the first time of collecting the data, that they may be used for direct marketing and should offer the right to object. Moreover, each subsequent marketing message should include an easy way for the customer to stop further messages (opt-out). The opt-in system is mandatory for any e-mail, SMS or fax addressed to natural persons for direct marketing. It is optional with regard to legal persons. For the latter category Member States may choose between an opt-in or an opt-out system. Now, I can't find a definitive piece of legislation or code of practice that clearly says an opt-in needs to be an unticked checkbox that the user needs to actively check, and an opt-out needs to be a ticked checkbox that the user needs to actively uncheck, but I strongly suspect that there is case law relating to this, and any double-triple-negative obfuscation a la don't check this checkbox if you don't want to receive no spam would not hold in a court of law and make a contract thus entered null and void. Again, IANAL, but speaking purely from a common-sense point of view. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net
Hello all! I re-did my website (http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/) a while back in an effort to update its look and improve the quality of the coding behind it. Right now, it looks perfect, just like I want it to. But, I need to improve/clean up the XHTML coding behind it - eg, properly structure the page, designing first for Lynx and text based browsers, then going back and making everything pretty for modern browsers through CSS. Do you all have any suggestions on the proper kinds of things that should end up in the heading (h1-h3) tags? Like, is my site title or my page title supposed to be in h1? I greatly appreciate your suggestions and input. --Zachary Hopkins -- ==The best way to predict the future is to invent it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
Paul Collins wrote: Could anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong and if possible give me some credible links to back this up? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/26/prior_consent_does_not_mean/ Kind of right, kind of wrong :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Alternate Navigation
Hi, It appears that a bid may be lost due to a client insisting on FLASH being used for navigation. The concern from this end is if FLASH is not installed or broken the entire site is DOA (Dead On Arrival). With the use of the object tag is it possible to include an alternate ul navigation, should FLASH fail? Return True, Christopher Kennon Principal/Designer/Programmer -Bushidodeep www.bushidodeep.com ___ An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality. -- Aldus Huxley ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
To quickly follow up, before the thread gets presumably closed for being way off topic: Patrick H. Lauke wrote: The Directive on Privacy and Electronic Communications (2002/58/EC) http://www.dti.gov.uk/industries/ecommunications/directive_on_privacy_electronic_communications_200258ec.html extends controls on unsolicited direct marketing to all forms of electronic communications including unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE or Spam) and SMS to mobile telephones; UCE and SMS will be subject to a prior consent requirement That seems to be an interesting distinction to the EC directive: it only mentions prior consent, not necessarily an opt-in. According to law firm Pinsent Masons' article http://www.out-law.com/page-5657 (free reg required) Consent by definition requires some sort of positive action on behalf of the recipient. However, it is a widely held misconception in data protection terms that consent requires that the user opts-in to their data being used. Prior consent does not mean the same thing as opt-in. [...] Prior consent, however, does not specify any particular means of assessing the user's intention. Therefore, while opt-in is one way of demonstrating a user's consent, it is not the only way. Another equally acceptable practice would be to collect the customer's details, at the same time presenting them with a data protection notice which is drafted to state that by providing their details the user consents to the receipt of unsolicited marketing emails. Key to this is the way in which the consent statement is drafted. It must be a positive statement, the effect of which is to be considered as positive consent by the user. At the same time the user must be provided with an opportunity to opt-out of their details being used for this method. The best way of achieving this is to include an opt-out tick box as a part of the data protection notice. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
My question is: is web-standards really considered a part of the professionalism of web people considering that even the IT media (AustralianIT) ignores this aspect? Well, yes. The IT Media really haven't caught on to standards. That doesn't mean web professionals haven't, or shouldn't. I'd also point out that checking your facts is part of being a professional journalist, yet this article is basically just a big promo for Sunbeam and Clear Blue Day. Dodgy reporting? Yes. Someone got shmoozed. There are no unbiased/third party/contrasting views included; about the only negatives reported were brushed over. The fact that the project ran to double the projected timeframe and might be hard to keep up to date suggests they had some serious scope creep and now have a huge, high-maintenance monster to keep up with - great if they manage it, a disaster if not. I wonder how much traffic the Sunbeam site is getting at the moment, I hope for their sake it's being pummelled. Otherwise, they have some *serious* server response time issues. I'm pretty sure Sunbeam's new site has actually been up for a few weeks; since it looked the same when I was stuck using it a few weeks ago (researching espresso machines). My fiance got utterly frustrated with it, since you can't just get a list of espresso machines. You have to click through endless mixers which happen to be included in the cafe series. We actually bought a sunbeam, but it was *in spite* of their website. h -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Alternate Navigation
Hi Patrick, This requires further research, but many issues may have been resolved in the Accessibility Panel within FLASH. Return True, Christopher Kennon Principal/Designer/Programmer -Bushidodeep http://bushidodeep.com/ __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee On Jan 30, 2006, at 6:19 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Chris Kennon wrote: It appears that a bid may be lost due to a client insisting on FLASH being used for navigation. The concern from this end is if FLASH is not installed or broken the entire site is DOA (Dead On Arrival). With the use of the object tag is it possible to include an alternate ul navigation, should FLASH fail? Well yes, that's the whole point of the object element...anything inside it represents a fallback for when the object itself can't be rendered http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.3.1 I'd be more concerned, however, about the accessibility implications when the flash *doesn't* fail, but it nonetheless not navigable by keyboard (or, for instance, swallows the browser's focus/tab) or not exposed to any screen reader or other assistive technology. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
Have a look at the Clear Blue Day site with flash disabled: http://www.richardson.co.nz/cbd.gif That's some quality web designing there alright! heretic wrote: My question is: is web-standards really considered a part of the professionalism of web people considering that even the IT media (AustralianIT) ignores this aspect? Well, yes. The IT Media really haven't caught on to standards. That doesn't mean web professionals haven't, or shouldn't. I'd also point out that checking your facts is part of being a professional journalist, yet this article is basically just a big promo for Sunbeam and Clear Blue Day. Dodgy reporting? Yes. Someone got shmoozed. There are no unbiased/third party/contrasting views included; about the only negatives reported were brushed over. The fact that the project ran to double the projected timeframe and might be hard to keep up to date suggests they had some serious scope creep and now have a huge, high-maintenance monster to keep up with - great if they manage it, a disaster if not. I wonder how much traffic the Sunbeam site is getting at the moment, I hope for their sake it's being pummelled. Otherwise, they have some *serious* server response time issues. I'm pretty sure Sunbeam's new site has actually been up for a few weeks; since it looked the same when I was stuck using it a few weeks ago (researching espresso machines). My fiance got utterly frustrated with it, since you can't just get a list of espresso machines. You have to click through endless mixers which happen to be included in the cafe series. We actually bought a sunbeam, but it was *in spite* of their website. h -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Mmm, just had a look in latest Opera 9 beta and concluded that it's most definitely beta software for a reason ;-) On another page, overflow:auto doesn't work because there are floating form elements, which the engine doesn't seem to want to let layout push down (because, obviously, things are floated) in order to trigger the scroll thingy. That's a technical term... On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many thanks. I'd only tested Opera in 8.5x (because, IMO, it's reasonable to assume if people are using Opera they're probably going to be people who bother upgrading their software!), so I'll be sure to take a look :-) On 1/30/06, Justin Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh Hi Josh, While on the topic of rendering bugs I just thought I would mention that in Opera 9 beta there is some funky stuff happening with the scrolling div on the deals page (http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/deals/). It's quite probable that this is just an Opera rendering bug (version 9 is beta after all) but if you're interested you could check it out . cheers, Justin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
Kat wrote: Maybe there is a member of Clear Blue Day here on this list and can explain why they have chosen what they have? I sent an email with questions about two of their decisions : why table-based layout and why not include character encoding? Their answer was that they used the table-based layout because they did not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not utilised for search engine reasons. Does the character-encoding in your web-page reduce your search engine positioning? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
On 31/01/06, Kat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kat wrote: Their answer was that they used the table-based layout because they did not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not utilised for search engine reasons. Wow. Those guys *really* have some catching up to do. Wonder what it's like emerging from a 1998 time capsule... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] No style
Is there any way to specify in CSS that a certain area is to have no style at all. Let's say I have my global style sheet where I style my ph1 etc. but on one page I have a div with id #editableArea I want that div to have no style applied that is defined in the style sheet, is that possible? Thanks, Kind regards, Taco Fleur - CEO Free Call 1800 032 982 or Mobile 0421 851 786Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 Web Design and Development SMS Solutions, including developer API Domain Registration, .COM for as low as fifteendollars a year, .COM.AU for fifty dollarstwo years! BlackBerryBusiness Solutions www.OzBlackBerry.com We endorse PayPal, accept payments online now! Seamless Merchant integration
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
On 1/31/06, Kat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I sent an email with questions about two of their decisions : why table-based layout and why not include character encoding? Their answer was that they used the table-based layout because they did not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not utilised for search engine reasons. Does the character-encoding in your web-page reduce your search engine positioning? Wow, no. Not at all. Please send Clear Blue Day another e-mail and ask them if they have any dinosaurs in their office. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
Christian Montoya wrote: Please send Clear Blue Day another e-mail and ask them if they have any dinosaurs in their office. This is not intended as an attack on Christian, nor anyone else. Not at all. I'm dead serious on that However, the comment above has reminded me of an attitude I see growing on this list and I want to put forward my point of view It is easy to get on a moral high-horse just because we know about standards The members of this list are no better than any of the developers at Clear Blue Day. Some work we produce may (or may not) be better than work they produce. There are many measures of worth. You have to be pretty damn good to top the scale across the board. This has no bearing of whether or not you treat them as politely and respectfully as any other person One of the main tenets behind adoption of standards is equality, not just of technology but of people. They're for everyone. That includes developers or development companies who may not appreciate the benefits immediately Standardista: Hey, development company, you should use standards! Development company: Nah, we don't get it. I don't want to. Standardista: Oh, well, then you're obviously scum. I'll not bother you further except to malign you This doesn't strike me as the way to advocate successfully I appreciate standards because of the opportunities for access and growth they offer. I appreciate (oh boy, do I appreciate!) how hard they can be to learn I also appreciate that changing 6 or 8 or 10 years of coding practice and philosophy of web development is incredibly difficult These are the kinds of people we should be reaching out to. We shouldn't be dismissing them. We should be bringing them into the fold Maybe you write some company an email asking if they know about standards and they tell you to get stuffed. Fair enough. We all know about flogging dead horses Kat's response from Clear Blue Day doesn't seem to indicate that to me though. It just indicates to me that they don't get it Surely, if someone doesn't get it, you try to establish a conversation? You try to help them? That's the attitude that I would like to see prevalent on this list. One of helpful conversation, not scornful condemnation (even in jest) Regards Lachlan PS If anyone feels the urge to flame me vehemently for this post, please do so off-list. Otherwise, I'd love to discuss my views with everyone ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
