[WSG] Re: Websites in Different Languages

[Andrew Cunningham]

White Ash writes: 


I've designed a website, and we're going to be making an almost identical
Japanese version.  I'm not sure what is involved ~ is it as easy as
including the following at the top of the document: 

  


"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd";> 

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xml:lang="ja" lang="ja"> 

 



I'd make a distinction netween two scenarios: 

1) you are adapting your site for Japanese native speakers who are living in 
your country, or
2) you are localizing your website for an audience in Japan. 

For scenario 2, this would be a bare minimum. You'll also need to adjust 
your stylesheets to accomodate Japanses presentation and typography issues. 
You will also need to look at: 


* locale related issues,
* cultural appropriateness of presentation and images
* encoding issues with form submissions (if used)
* script encoding issues, if there are any scripts on your site which 
process information,
* etc. 


Andrew
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Re: [WSG] IE7 hacks

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 4 Feb 2006, at 3:25 am, Ted Drake wrote:

I posted a hack to IE7 today. I know I'm not the first one to find  
this, but

thought I'd throw it out there for all to love on.

www.tdrake.net

It's pretty simple. But please, think beyond hacks.


I'll file a bug report for that parsing bug :-)

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh



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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER

[russ - maxdesign]

> Just to be clear, unitless non-zero values are appropriate for
> line-height http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-line-height
> and are generally preferred, since computed values are not inherited.
> http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/line-height-inherit.html

A good point, Felix. Also explained in detail by John Allsopp a while ago:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/john-allsopp.cfm#line-height
Russ

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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER

[Felix Miata]

Just to be clear, unitless non-zero values are appropriate for
line-height http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-line-height
and are generally preferred, since computed values are not inherited.
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/line-height-inherit.html
-- 
"Love your neighbor as yourself."Mark 12:31 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER

[russ - maxdesign]

> Without wanting to unleash too many ponies, I would be interested to know why
> using 0(px | em | %) is so much of a standards blunder.  I'm sure there some
> obvious answer but for the life of me, I can't think of one :).

It's definitely not a standards blunder to add units to a "0" value, just
unnecessary. But don¹t take my word for it... Here is a range of others who
have already said it more (or less) eloquently:

1.
"Specify units for numerical, non-zero values: CSS requires that units are
specified for properties like width, height, and font-size. An exception
from this is when the value is 0 (zero). In that case, no unit is necessary,
since zero is zero, no matter what the unit is."
http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/developing_with_web_standards/css/

2.
"When a value is zero, you do not need to state a unit. For example, if you
wanted to specify no border, it would be border: 0."
http://www.htmldog.com/guides/cssbeginner/selectors/

3.
"Note that the zero sized margin is defined as 0, because when any value is
zero it doesn't matter what unit you use. A zero amount of any unit (px, em,
%, etc.) is equal to a zero amount of any other unit."
http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=90F55

4.
"If we want to set a margin or padding to zero, we don't need to include a
unit (zero of any unit is always the same!)"
http://www.blueknot.com/CSS/thebox.html

5.
"You must specify a unit unless the value is zero, in which case no unit
should be given. 0px is the same as 0em so units are meaningless for zero
values. Write 0 on its own instead."
http://wettone.com/code/css-style

6.
"The only time it's ok to leave out a unit is when you're setting something
to zero. padding: 0; is a valid declaration, as zero is zero no matter which
way you slice it."
http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/stylesheets/cssspacing.html

7.
"Zero is always zero regardless of whether it's 0px, 0em, 0cm etc.. so no
units are required when specifying 0.
- exception: using color notation in rgb format: e.g. rgb(0%, 0%, 0%)"
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum83/4514-7-10.htm

HTH
Russ


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Re: [WSG] IE7 hacks

[Joshua Street]

On 2/4/06, kvnmcwebn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well someone here (no names :)  told me a while back that
> the *hmtl hack was ie future proof so maybe not.

Well, it is. It's not going to affect any more versions of Internet
Explorer (this has been known for some time now), hence any rules you
put into that are isolated and can only affect past versions of the
browser. THAT hack is future proof, what you put IN that hack may or
may not be future proof depending on how IE's CSS support evolves. At
present, it seems to be shaping up pretty well (far better than I'd
anticipated...), so we hopefully won't even need hacks/conditional
comments 99% of the time once it hits final!

Obviously, keep reporting bugs. Far better we complain lots and loudly
now so the IE team know about CSS issues that continue to plague IE's
engine than be stuck waiting until IE8 in 2015 or whenever it will be!

Josh
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RE: [WSG] IE7 hacks

[kvnmcwebn]

jay wrote,

"Does it make sense to be considering hacks yet?"


Well someone here (no names :)  told me a while back that 
the *hmtl hack was ie future proof so maybe not.

-best 
kvnmcwebn




 

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Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Joshua Street]

Yes, but can you use an anchor fragment to link to a point in an
Acrobat document?

The other thing is why would we even bother with that when we have
hypertext? On one site I did recently, the client wanted a PDF
brochure with _identical_ information to what was in hypertext
included. The PDF brochure in question was some non-standard size, so
people couldn't even print it, yet the client wanted it there
(probably because they'd paid some designer too much money for it).
It's useless content, and it's achieved easier and better with
hypertext. Why?

I do see PDF's applications (disseminating print documents that
universally render the same -- though they don't ALWAYS look the same,
but we won't go there), just not as a markup replacement.

Felix's link to Alertbox is great, btw...

On 2/3/06, Ray Cauchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote:
>
> PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page
>  (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc)
>
>  PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat
> or dynamically generated via PHP et al...
>
>
>
>
>  Best Regards
>
>  Ray Cauchi
>  Manager/Lead Developer
>
>
>  ( T W E E K ! )
>
>  PO Box 15
>  Wentworth Falls
>  NSW Australia 2782
>
>  | p:+61 2 4757 1600
>  | f:+61 2 4757 3808
>  | m:0414 270 400
>  | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  | w: http://www.tweek.com.au
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Re: [WSG] IE7 hacks

[Jay Gilmore]

Ted, 
Thanks for the post. Do we even know if the Beta 2 css rendering engine
is done though? Does it make sense to be considering hacks yet? I have
layout issues with current sites due to hacks for >6 and I will
definitely wait before I change them as I don't think that the
rendering development and bug fixes is done -- hence the beta release.

All the best,

Jay


Jay Gilmore

U)SmashingRed Web & Marketing
B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed
Blog
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Ted Drake wrote:

  Hi everyone
I posted a hack to IE7 today. I know I'm not the first one to find this, but
thought I'd throw it out there for all to love on.

www.tdrake.net 

It's pretty simple. But please, think beyond hacks.


Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net


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[WSG] IE7 hacks

[Ted Drake]

Hi everyone
I posted a hack to IE7 today. I know I'm not the first one to find this, but
thought I'd throw it out there for all to love on.

www.tdrake.net 

It's pretty simple. But please, think beyond hacks.


Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net


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RE: [WSG] Websites in Different Languages

[Ted Drake]

You may find some practical advice here:
http://www.chin.gc.ca/English/index.html the Canadian Heritage Information
Network.  Canadian sites that are sponsored by the government are required
to be bilingual. This network offers support to Canadian museums and other
non-profit organizations. I would assume they have some information on best
practices for maintaining multi-lingual sites.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of White Ash
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:00 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Websites in Different Languages

Hello!

I've designed a website, and we're going to be making an almost identical
Japanese version.  I'm not sure what is involved ~ is it as easy as
including the following at the top of the document:

 

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd";>

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xml:lang="ja" lang="ja">





Thanks for any and all guidance!

White Ash

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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER

[Mark Hine]

I think the reasoning is to maintain compatability with relative units. 
So then with em and %,  zero = none, as a referent. And for fixed unit 
measurements, like px, it really makes no difference (0 = 0), which is 
why I believe in the standard it specifies units as /optional/ after 
zero. I differ to those with more experience on that point.


Mark
Stephen Stagg wrote:

Without wanting to unleash too many ponies, I would be interested to 
know why using 0(px | em | %) is so much of a standards blunder.  I'm 
sure there some obvious answer but for the life of me, I can't think 
of one :).


If this has already been done to death on the list, please forgive me 
and email me privately in reply.


I shall of course not use units when specifying 0 as a length in 
future CSS work.


Thanks in Advance

Stephen.

On 3 Feb 2006, at 16:29, White Ash wrote:


Thanks Georg for the fix ~ I must remember that for future designs!
 
That works beautifully.
 
And Russ ~ so that more and more web standards faeries may live, I 
have converted all 0px's in my code to 0.
 
I do believe
 
White Ash
 
FIX:
 



  Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top

Gunlaug Sørtun
Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:32:25 -0800





Adding something like:

div#container,div#banner {padding-top: 1px;}
#navlist {margin-top: 10px;}
h1 {margin-top: -10px; max-width: 400px;}

...shouldn't be too far off.
Those padding-top prevent collapsing margins, and the margins are then
defined to position correctly across browser-land.

Adjust those margins to taste, and check for unwanted
overlapping/breaking when font-resizing is applied.

regards
   Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no








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Re: [WSG] Websites in Different Languages

[Hopkins Programming]

In addition to making sure that all of the Doctypes and header
information shows that its Japanese, you may look into Apache's
multiple language support (If you're using Apache, that is).

Resources:
Multiple language support with the Apache webserver
Apache Module mod_mime

--ZacharyOn 2/3/06, White Ash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello!I've designed a website, and we're going to be making an almost identicalJapanese version.  I'm not sure what is involved ~ is it as easy asincluding the following at the top of the document:
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xml:lang="ja" lang="ja">
Thanks for any and all guidance!White Ash**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
-- =="The best way to predict the future is to invent it."  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

[WSG] Websites in Different Languages

[White Ash]

Hello!

I've designed a website, and we're going to be making an almost identical
Japanese version.  I'm not sure what is involved ~ is it as easy as
including the following at the top of the document:

 

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd";>

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xml:lang="ja" lang="ja">





Thanks for any and all guidance!

White Ash

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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER

[Stephen Stagg]

Without wanting to unleash too many ponies, I would be interested to know why using 0(px | em | %) is so much of a standards blunder.  I'm sure there some obvious answer but for the life of me, I can't think of one :).If this has already been done to death on the list, please forgive me and email me privately in reply.I shall of course not use units when specifying 0 as a length in future CSS work.Thanks in AdvanceStephen.On 3 Feb 2006, at 16:29, White Ash wrote:  Thanks Georg for the fix ~ I must remember that for future designs!   That works beautifully.   And Russ ~ so that more and more web standards faeries may live, I have converted all 0px's in my code to 0.   I do believe   White Ash   FIX:     Re: [WSG] Gaps At The TopGunlaug SørtunThu, 02 Feb 2006 15:32:25 -0800   Adding something like:

div#container,div#banner {padding-top: 1px;}
#navlist {margin-top: 10px;}
h1 {margin-top: -10px; max-width: 400px;}

...shouldn't be too far off.
Those padding-top prevent collapsing margins, and the margins are then
defined to position correctly across browser-land.

Adjust those margins to taste, and check for unwanted
overlapping/breaking when font-resizing is applied.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no  

Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top - ANSWER

[White Ash]

Title: Message



Thanks Georg for 
the fix ~ I must remember that for future designs!
 
That works 
beautifully.
 
And Russ ~ so that 
more and more web standards faeries may live, I have converted all 0px's in my 
code to 0.
 
I do 
believe
 
White 
Ash
 
FIX:
 


Re: [WSG] Gaps At The 
Top
Gunlaug 
SørtunThu, 02 Feb 2006 15:32:25 
-0800
  Adding something like:

div#container,div#banner {padding-top: 1px;}
#navlist {margin-top: 10px;}
h1 {margin-top: -10px; max-width: 400px;}

...shouldn't be too far off.
Those padding-top prevent collapsing margins, and the margins are then
defined to position correctly across browser-land.

Adjust those margins to taste, and check for unwanted
overlapping/breaking when font-resizing is applied.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no  

Re: [WSG] Firefox being naughty

[Hopkins Programming]

If I may make one suggestion, you should allow the white content box to
either resize vertically or scroll.  The text goes a good distance
out of the box on my laptop (Default font settings on laptops are
120DPI, vs the Default 96DPI on desktops).

--ZacharyOn 2/3/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for your replies, I noticed the double flash in Opera as well.  Ithink it's due to some "compliant flash code script" I had found lastyear - may have been on a list apart...  better go back and check them all!
Joseph R. B. TaylorSites by Joe, LLChttp://sitesbyjoe.com(609)335-3076[EMAIL PROTECTED]Marilyn Langfeld wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:>>> Guys and Gals, Perhaps you can help me with this mystery.  I built this site over  a>> year ago 
http://holidayrealty.com, and recently Firefox (I'm  using>> 1.5 (could be the issue)) has stopped displaying my  background image>> on the main content (on subpages only) and is  instead just making the
>> background black!  I even went into the CSS  and added a>> background-color: #FF and it didn't affect the  behavior at all.>>> I get a double Flash image in Safari 2.0.3 which pushes the text  below
> the box into the background on the homepage. Double image in  other> pages, but the main text box stretches down to enclose the copy  in> other pages.>> I get the background, though, both in Safari and Mac Firefox 
1.5.>> Best regards,>> Marilyn Langfeld> Langfeldesigns> http://www.langfeldesigns.com> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +1.301.598.3300 business phone> +1.301.598.0532 fax> +1.202.390.8847 mobile>>> **> The discussion list for  
http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **>>>**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
-- =="The best way to predict the future is to invent it."  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

Re: [WSG] Firefox being naughty

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Thanks for your replies, I noticed the double flash in Opera as well.  I 
think it's due to some "compliant flash code script" I had found last 
year - may have been on a list apart...  better go back and check them all!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Marilyn Langfeld wrote:

On Feb 1, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Guys and Gals,

Perhaps you can help me with this mystery.  I built this site over  a 
year ago http://holidayrealty.com, and recently Firefox (I'm  using 
1.5 (could be the issue)) has stopped displaying my  background image 
on the main content (on subpages only) and is  instead just making the 
background black!  I even went into the CSS  and added a 
background-color: #FF and it didn't affect the  behavior at all.



I get a double Flash image in Safari 2.0.3 which pushes the text  below 
the box into the background on the homepage. Double image in  other 
pages, but the main text box stretches down to enclose the copy  in 
other pages.


I get the background, though, both in Safari and Mac Firefox 1.5.

Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1.301.598.3300 business phone
+1.301.598.0532 fax
+1.202.390.8847 mobile


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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

In most instances, its not a case of trying to convince someone to 
change their ways, nor is it a case of trying to "sell" web standards.


The real fact is that each and everyone of my clients knows that HTML 
exists, and that it has something to do with a webpage.


My role when talking with them is to try and explain what I believe to 
be the best approach (utilizing standards), and coming up with visual 
examples that hit home at their level.  Not that they're stupid, but we 
can't expect a business owner in a different industry to have knowledge 
equal to the depth of our own in our own field.


Example: A local real estate agency wanted me to, in their words "update 
the look of the site".  Do they realize that the original design was 
made in design view in Dreamweaver, comeplete with a multitude of nested 
tables, the horrendous javascripts it produces for rollovers and popup 
windows?  No.  Does it mean anything to them?  No.


But, as I approach the redesign, I feel its necessary to educate them on 
what I plan to do, mainly dumping all the nested tables, MM scripts and 
performing a nice code cleanup.  You can't SEE this as a non-web person. 
 It takes a well thoughout pitch to make them understand the point of this.


It's our responsibility to do it the best we can so they DON'T have to 
think about it.  Most educated people never heard the word "semantics"!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

adam LEAPER wrote:

what this email meant for me or what?
im confused to why I am getting so many emails?

On 2/3/06, Ben Bishop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 2/3/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I want to go beyond the argument of separation of information and


presentation markup.

What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing in
the first place?




That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage of


semantics, logical content markup

I don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for
non-semantic and illogical markup.

Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they really
need a new website because their current one isn't standards based? Are you
looking for an explanation of why you are different to all the other web
developers out there?

Ultimately, do you really need to "sell" web standards to the client?

I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If you
really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web Standards
Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user groups. Give
talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.

-Ben



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Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Felix Miata]

Stephen Stagg wrote:
 
> I (usually) like the way that PDF files tend to open in the browser
> window.  Many people I know also are used to this and it doesn't
> bother them.  You say  that users "expect the way to return to web
> content ".  A pdf online IS web content, you may argue that what you
> meant was Hypertext content but the 'average' user doesn't think like
> that. 

This user expects things opened in a web browser to adapt as natural web
content does, so this user agrees with Jakob:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html
-- 
"Love your neighbor as yourself."Mark 12:31 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/

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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Ric Raftis]

Jay Gilmore wrote

et al..

I'm with you Jay.  I live in a small rural community as well and my work 
comes by word of mouth.  I can't start something up locally as most 
people in town don't even believe people use the internet!!!  This is 
probably where a thread on a forum has more value than a list.  People 
could add their ideas to the thread and build the compelling reasons you 
and all of us are probably seeking.


I particularly loved one of them posted today, I think by Helen but 
forgive me if I'm wrong, about using the Web Developer extension in 
Firefox to remove all styling.  I thought that was brilliant and really 
showed up some big flaws in some sites I tested.  I had never used that 
before.


To some extent, one of the things it will come down to, like solicitors 
(wash my mouth out) and accountants it is all to do with the trust of 
your clients or potential clients.  Present a good case that you are a 
professional, build the trust and always work on the basis of "do we 
really cost more or are the others worthlessI mean worth less".


Regards,


Ric

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Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart

[Ray Cauchi]

Hey Ed
You could do

http://www.oscommerce.com with the STS Template contribution (see the
Contributions page, search for STS)
It allows you to completely reskin the tag casserole it ships with...so
the Standards savvy bit falls onto your plate - but I haven't seen a
shopping cart out there thats standards savvy out of the box...
The next release of OSCommerce will have a CSS based layout as standard,
apparently, but it may be a wee way off yet...
ray


At 07:27 AM 3/02/2006, you wrote:

Hello 
I am looking for a web standards
friendly shopping cart for an upcoming project.  I have had a look
but not had much luck, previously used CactusASP but the amount of
spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have me calling again.

Would appreciate any links and/or
recommendations.  Thank you. 
Regards 
Ed Henderson

Web Man Walking - web design &
usability experts 
t:
 0131 669 8800 (local) / 0800 781 2371
(freephone) 
m:
 0781 253 6964 
f:
 0797 062 1532 
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 web-man-walking.com

a:
 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15
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service" 


Best Regards
Ray Cauchi
Manager/Lead Developer

( T W E E K ! )
PO Box 15
Wentworth Falls
NSW Australia 2782
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Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Ray Cauchi]

At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote:
PDF content rarely has the
_behaviour_ of a web page
(rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links,
etc)
PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in
Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al...


Best Regards
Ray Cauchi
Manager/Lead Developer

( T W E E K ! )
PO Box 15
Wentworth Falls
NSW Australia 2782
| p:+61 2 4757 1600
| f:    +61 2 4757 3808
| m:    0414 270 400
| e:    [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| w:
   

http://www.tweek.com.au 

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Ray Cauchi]

At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote:
PDF content rarely has the
_behaviour_ of a web page
(rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links,
etc)
PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in
Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al...


Best Regards
Ray Cauchi
Manager/Lead Developer

( T W E E K ! )
PO Box 15
Wentworth Falls
NSW Australia 2782
| p:+61 2 4757 1600
| f:    +61 2 4757 3808
| m:    0414 270 400
| e:    [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| w:
   

http://www.tweek.com.au 

Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Jay Gilmore]

Ben Bishop wrote:
On
2/3/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  I
want to go beyond the
argument of separation of information and presentation markup. 
  
 What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing
in the first place?
  
  

The definition of argument I am using is support of a position and not
disagreement.

  
  That
portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage
of semantics, logical content markup
  
  
I don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for
non-semantic and illogical markup.

This is not the case at all.

Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they
really need a new website because their current one isn't standards
based? Are you looking for an explanation of why you are different to
all the other web developers out there?
  
  

No. and No 
Ultimately,
do you really need to "sell" web standards to the client?
  
I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If
you really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web
Standards Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user
groups. Give talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.
  
  
-Ben


Ben you have missed my point entirely. My reason for this post is not
for selling my business. My reason for posting was that in many threads
on this NG from the time I started people have been talking about
bringing web standards to a wider acceptance level in the developer
community. My post at the top of this thread was to solicit comments
and suggestions that could be the basis for communicating the
compelling business case for small business to actually want web
standards. My thought is to begin to develop such an awareness of this
business case for web standards for small business that web standards
becomes the standard based on demand and not a push from the developer
community. I believe that there is only so much the web standards
community can do to convert the rest of the development community until
a critical mass of business make a requirement of it. They will never
do this unless there is a real case for it. My reason for a small
business case is the percentage of small business that comprise the
economy is so great that to convince or make the case the though
leaders in that community will have greater impact than us just adding
one or two developers to the WSG. And as for starting a WSG in my
community? I live in a rural community so this is my WSG. 

I am moving past "selling:" web standards to my client my goal is that
web standards based development become a sweeping standard in the
industry and the only way to achieve that is if business concludes it
is a bad business decision to do anything other and demand it of all
developers whom they engage.

All the best,

Jay

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Stephen Stagg]

I think you're mistaking your experiences of users for all users.  I  
don't know anyone who uses JAWS, doesn't mean that people don't tho.


I (usually) like the way that PDF files tend to open in the browser  
window.  Many people I know also are used to this and it doesn't  
bother them.  You say  that users "expect the way to return to web  
content ".  A pdf online IS web content, you may argue that what you  
meant was Hypertext content but the 'average' user doesn't think like  
that.  When I am browsing, I'm looking for information, be it in a  
word document, PDF document or HTML document.  The ability for my  
browser to navigate between these just by using the back/forward/ 
history options is very useful.


Now, I'm not saying that my experience represents the norm, but I  
don't think that you, as a designer, should try to dictate in which  
application your data loads.


If sometimes a PDF file opens in the browser, other times in a new  
window, A user will become confused and this is something we should  
always work to stop.  Besides, breaking a delivery mechanism to  
create a non-standard behavior is hardly a standards based approach. :)


Stephen.


On 2 Feb 2006, at 21:58, Joshua Street wrote:


Yes, it's a good thing. PDF's aren't web pages. This is the
distinction between a web site and a web application: applications are
'expected' to have 'application-like' behaviour (such as new windows,
etc.). Also, PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page
(rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) so to expect
it to appear AS a web page is flawed: there is no way of navigating
out of it but to close the window, or press Back.

Users (correctly, IMO) identify Acrobat as a separate, non-web
application, and hence expect the way to return to web content is to
close Acrobat (i.e. if you've loaded it in a browser, the browser
window). They're not going to look for the Back button here.

Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF
files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very
much users do this by 'preference' one way or another.

Josh

On 2/3/06, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

 (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the
server to send it as an octet stream).


Doing so would override the local browser's setting.  Is this 'a good
thing'?  I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do
a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text-
size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those
font-sizes.

YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if
that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat
documents in a new window.

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Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Alexis]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:14 pm, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> Marilyn Langfeld wrote:
> > And Adobe is adding accessibility
> > aids (depends on the designer to implement them though).
>
> Worth mentioning though that the accessibility enhancements (like the
> way that a screenreader can access the content of a PDF in a sensible
> manner) only apply to the standalone Adobe Reader application, not the
> browser plugin mode (last time I checked, anyway).

And do the accessibility enhancements include a drastic reduction in file 
size? In my experience, PDF files are much larger than an HTML document with 
the same content, and there are still /many/ users on dialup connections out 
there . . . .


Alexis.
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Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top

[Karl Dawson]

haha, now this is light-hearted education. First grin of the morning (08.21hrs).On 03/02/06, russ - maxdesign <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Adding a "margin: 0px;" to the H1 element pushed up to the top.
Remember, every time you add units to a "0" value, a web standards fairydies. To avoid this on your conscience, simply use "margin: 0;". Apart fromthe lives you could save, think of the bandwidth savings!
RussWeb standards shetland pony**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**-- Karl Dawson
http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk--Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/
--"The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect."Tim Berners-Lee - W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web

Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[adam LEAPER]

what this email meant for me or what?
im confused to why I am getting so many emails?

On 2/3/06, Ben Bishop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2/3/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I want to go beyond the argument of separation of information and
> presentation markup.
>
>  What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing in
> the first place?
>
>
> > That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage of
> semantics, logical content markup
>
> I don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for
> non-semantic and illogical markup.
>
> Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they really
> need a new website because their current one isn't standards based? Are you
> looking for an explanation of why you are different to all the other web
> developers out there?
>
> Ultimately, do you really need to "sell" web standards to the client?
>
> I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If you
> really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web Standards
> Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user groups. Give
> talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.
>
> -Ben
>
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