Re: [WSG] noscript
Ian, The only think I would add is a check to make sure that a browser understands the methods you are using. Avoiding an error caused because a browser doesn't understand var container = document.getElementById(copy) is almost as important as making sure that the site works without JavaScript enabled in the first place. like this in the load function? if (!document.getElementsById) return false; Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] tabular data
I'm reworking a site to get it up to web standards. Tables should be used only to contain tabular data Would current accepted practices be: If it can be done without a table that should be first choice. or Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] noscript
Bob Schwartz wrote:
like this in the load function?
if (!document.getElementsById) return false;
Bob
Yes, just like that. I think my favourite method (as used by PPK at
http://www.quirksmode.org/) is to use the following:
var W3CDOM = (document.createElement document.getElementsByTagName);
if (!W3CDOM) return;
This can be used either inside a function as it is, split so that
multiple functions can call it:
var W3CDOM = (document.createElement document.getElementsByTagName);
function doSomething() {
if (!W3CDOM) return;
}
or as part of an onload event:
var W3CDOM = (document.createElement document.getElementsByTagName);
window.onload = function () {
if (!W3CDOM) return;
doSomething();
}
function doSomething() {
}
The same principle can be used to check for more specific things, as
with your example:
if (!document.getElementById) return;
which will stop a script if getElementById (note the singular of
Element) is not supported.
Ian.
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Re: [WSG] noscript
Thanks, I'll update my code.
Getting there and learning in the process.
Bob Schwartz wrote:
like this in the load function?
if (!document.getElementsById) return false;
Bob
Yes, just like that. I think my favourite method (as used by PPK at
http://www.quirksmode.org/) is to use the following:
var W3CDOM = (document.createElement
document.getElementsByTagName);
if (!W3CDOM) return;
This can be used either inside a function as it is, split so that
multiple functions can call it:
var W3CDOM = (document.createElement
document.getElementsByTagName);
function doSomething() {
if (!W3CDOM) return;
}
or as part of an onload event:
var W3CDOM = (document.createElement
document.getElementsByTagName);
window.onload = function () {
if (!W3CDOM) return;
doSomething();
}
function doSomething() {
}
The same principle can be used to check for more specific things, as
with your example:
if (!document.getElementById) return;
which will stop a script if getElementById (note the singular of
Element) is not supported.
Ian.
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Re: [WSG] tabular data
Bob Schwartz wrote: I'm reworking a site to get it up to web standards. Tables should be used only to contain tabular data The simplest expansion of this is: - do *not* use tables to lay out a page. - use tables _within_ a page when dealing with tabular data. Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html The table in the center is definitely containing tabular data. That is: 'nbsp;' doesn't mean anything in a non-graphical browser, so there's no informational value whatsoever in it. The calendar is containing tabular data, so that's fine. I think th should be used in the top row of those tables. The page as such is *not* containing tabular data - even if it contains tables that contains tabular data, so table should *not* have been used to lay out that page. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabular data
Bob Schwartz wrote: Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html This looks like a candidate for a table but my concern would be that the table is not well constructed. There is no thead, tbody, summary, scope... and where the judges are highlighted with an image there is no data. Rather, a class is used to style the cell. Have you checked this against the spec for html tables on the W3C site? Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabular data
Bob Using tabular form should be the first choice; where you have what is naturally a table. What you have is clearly a table. I would suggest that if reworking this and really taking the needs of users into account; maybe breaking the data into a series of smaller tables (possibly based around nation) would be a good idea. It would then be more usable, making it easier to scan irrespective of whatever type of agent / browser they may be using. Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk On 06/03/07, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm reworking a site to get it up to web standards. Tables should be used only to contain tabular data Would current accepted practices be: If it can be done without a table that should be first choice. or Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabular data
Chris, Georg, Thanks for the information. Regarding the table used to construct the page and the cent table not being well constructed, etc.: those are reasons why I am redoing the site. My only concern here was to have an example of what you guys consider a candidate for tabular data to use for making decisions in the future as to what can be put in a table. Bob Bob Schwartz wrote: Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html This looks like a candidate for a table but my concern would be that the table is not well constructed. There is no thead, tbody, summary, scope... and where the judges are highlighted with an image there is no data. Rather, a class is used to style the cell. Have you checked this against the spec for html tables on the W3C site? Kind Regards -- Chris Price *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Screen reader friendly show/hide dhtml
Hi Rebecca, Screen readers handling of JavaScript events are a real pain as not only do different screen readers handle HTML and CSS differently but this is also true of their handling of JavaScript. Typically as no content should be inaccessible without JS if you must hide content from a sighted user do so with absolutley positioning the element of screen rather than using display none. With regards to the show hide cookie, if you place the links offscreen using the method described above and then position back within the page view on focus then once a person tabs through the anchor list the links show. This is also usefull when providing partially sighted users visual ques onscreen. The JavaScript Anthology by James Edwards http://www.sitepoint.com/books/jsant1/ has a nice chapter on this subject and The Juicy Studio Blog also many informative posts http://juicystudio.com/index.php. Kind Regards Darren On 05/03/07, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I've got a couple of questions regarding DHTML and how to ensure content is accessible usable via screen reader. Say you have a web page with a link to Subscribe to updates - when the user hovers on the link, a form would be displayed below (standard dhtml show/hide). The form would be in the HTML source on page load, hidden using CSS. My questions on this are: 1. If we displayed the content on focus as well as on hover, would this make it screen reader usable? 2. Alternatively, we could make clicking on the link (rather than, or as well as, on focus) display the content and take you to it (ie use an anchor on the page). 2. Does reading out the link (for screen readers) give it focus? 3. If we had (at top of page, with the skip link) a facility to turn off the show/hide functionality, (using a cookie) would this be useful? If anyone has comments, suggestions etc they could pass on to me about this, it would be greatly appreciated:) Regards, Rebecca Cox SIGNIFY LIMITED :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington 250A Wakefield St, Wellington This communication, including any attachment, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete/destroy this communication; you may not read and must not copy, send on or retain any part of this communication. Please do not disclose to any third party anything about this communication. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabular data
Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? If you would put it in a spreadsheet, it belongs in a table. Your example is tabular data. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] tabular data
Perhaps a logical definition of tabular data is data whose meaning is defined by its position in a set of rows and columns? [only makes sense in monospaced font] | BEST ACTOR | BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR | --- | | 2007 | Forest Whitaker| Alan Arkin| --- | | 2006 | Philip Seymour Hoffman | George Clooney| - In order to answer the question who got Best Supporting Actor in 2006? you have to use the table's rows and columns to locate the answer by its coordinates, so to speak. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Schwartz Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2007 9:37 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] tabular data Chris, Georg, Thanks for the information. Regarding the table used to construct the page and the cent table not being well constructed, etc.: those are reasons why I am redoing the site. My only concern here was to have an example of what you guys consider a candidate for tabular data to use for making decisions in the future as to what can be put in a table. Bob Bob Schwartz wrote: Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html This looks like a candidate for a table but my concern would be that the table is not well constructed. There is no thead, tbody, summary, scope... and where the judges are highlighted with an image there is no data. Rather, a class is used to style the cell. Have you checked this against the spec for html tables on the W3C site? Kind Regards -- Chris Price *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Talking about tabular data...
The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. dwain On 3/6/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
I tend to think of tabular data as that which, if you were to pull one row out at random and without reference to the column headings, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. That's not the case with your example where it's fairly obvious how the two pieces of information are related. On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:51:40 +1000, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I think it could either be a table or a definition list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
A table seems fine as would a definition list. Jim -- __ Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft! www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work) www.arionshome.com (Personal) www.freexenon.com (Consulting) __ Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.com Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards http://www.maccaws.org/ Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/ Web Standards Group http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/ Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Tables are the go Thierry. The names and functions are always correctly justified that way. Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. best Rob Robert Robinson BSS (Applied Psych Pers Mgt IR) e-Publishing Section Service Delivery Design Support Branch Customer Service Design Implementation Division Phone: Fax: Email: (02) 6244 6616 (sp. 446616) (02) 6244 7952 (sp. 447952) Robert Robinson Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2007 12:51 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Reference Expires The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** gifAg6qp51EKP.gif Description: GIF image
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
after reading the comments posted here, i guess that standards are what makes you feel good. maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? it seems to me that the intent of the author plays a big role in how the document is crafted. i guess it is hard for some to rid themselves of the need to craft pages layed out in tables. i guess that the definition of what is tabular data and what isn't is still a gray area in the arena of standards. dwain On 3/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tables are the go Thierry. The names and functions are always correctly justified that way. Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. best Rob -- *Robert Robinson BSS (Applied Psych Pers Mgt IR)** e-Publishing Section ** Service Delivery Design Support Branch Customer Service Design Implementation Division* *Phone: Fax: Email:* (02) 6244 6616 (sp. 446616) (02) 6244 7952 (sp. 447952)* **Robert Robinson* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2007 12:51 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Reference Expires The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. If the dots were essential, they should be created using CSS (definitely presentational as they are there to help line up the two blocks of content). This would mean that they would not appear in the markup (they would make life hell for screen readers if the dots were content). This could be achieved using border bottom set with border-style to dots or a background image that is cut off under the two blocks of content... Should be easy :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html On 3/7/07, Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. dwain On 3/6/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com http://www.tjkdesign.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Dwain Alford wrote: maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? if it was easy to come up with a definitive definition, then yes. ok, i'll just splurge out two random things that popped into my head...the way i see it, it's likely to be tabular data if: - the various cells have a clearly defined relationship - moving content from one cell to another changes the *meaning*, not just the way it's laid out on screen P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
David Pietersen wrote: Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html I would suggest that the last one was an example of *table* of contents. John Faulds said: I tend to think of tabular data as that which, if you were to pull one row out at random and without reference to the column headings, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I think we can say that Thierry Koblentz's example is good, because we are assuming we know what the column headings are. Thierry Koblentz's example: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones I assume that this is a list of positions and their office holders for a particular organisation. But it could be a list of members of an executives association with their positions listed. It could be a list of people vying for particular positions within an organisation eg.: President..John Smith President..Joe Smith So perhaps John Fauld's requirement of headers is a good one!:) I am going for tabulated data because this data is requiring a right tab, though most data we talk about usually requires a left tab, though you could make a strong case for a definition list. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
ok, i'll bite. how does it change the meaning? i really don't understand what you mean. after reading a later post about screen readers and how they would go crazy with the dots, that i understand; but again, i don't understand your statement about changing the meaning. what is the meaning in this case? dwain On 3/6/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dwain Alford wrote: maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? if it was easy to come up with a definitive definition, then yes. ok, i'll just splurge out two random things that popped into my head...the way i see it, it's likely to be tabular data if: - the various cells have a clearly defined relationship - moving content from one cell to another changes the *meaning*, not just the way it's laid out on screen P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Dwain Alford wrote: ok, i'll bite. how does it change the meaning? i really don't understand what you mean. after reading a later post about screen readers and how they would go crazy with the dots, that i understand; but again, i don't understand your statement about changing the meaning. what is the meaning in this case? Why would this even merit a debate? If one wants to choose a definition list for structure, then he has obviously determined that it's logical for his particular application. If one chooses a table, given the relationship Thierry presented, then that logic is also valid. If I had a relational database that joined an employee_name table to a position table, then I might be inclined to use a table and it's no more arguable then if I were creating a static relationship directly on a page and decided to use a definition list. The dots are academic since anyone with a good CSS grounding would deploy them using a background image - not by typing in a bunch of dots :-) Consider this: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/tables/dotleader/ If Thierry wants to use a definition list, then that's his decision and it's probably not going to end the world. If he wants to debate with someone who's made his own decision to use a table and who, perhaps, simply wants to know a good way to make the dots, then that could be an invitation to a controversy. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] New Project - Feedback Appreciated
At 3/5/2007 08:44 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: http://geofeat.com/ Nice site, Sarah. If you look at the home page with images turned off you'll see that there's no site title -- the graphic logo disappears and you've positioned the text head (Geofeat - all things green, eco-friendly and organic) off-screen. This past year I've switched from using that technique to using this one: mark up the logo as a foreground image with its text equivalent in the alt: h1img src=/images/presentation/logo.gif alt=Geofeat - all things green, eco-friendly and organic //h1 The head will show up with or without images enabled as well as with or without CSS enabled. I routinely style all my chrome as background images so I really had to wrestle with this idea. It finally won me over for its accessibility and progressive enhancement. And it's easy to justify a site logo or corporate identity as a foreground image -- it's not merely decoration, it's a concrete graphic entity that represents the website owner. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] XML schemas and targetnamespace
Thank you in advance for this question, I know it's probably stretching what WSG is here for. What does targetnamespace do? Is it setting a default namespace for that schema? Take for instance this example: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-0/#po1.xsd schema xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema; xmlns:po=http://www.example.com/PO1; targetNamespace=http://www.example.com/PO1; elementFormDefault=unqualified attributeFormDefault=unqualified I would have thought that the default namespace was the first namespace listed, unprefixed (xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;) and then the second listed namespace, xmlns:po=http://www.example.com/PO1; is referenced by the po: prefix, but then what does the targetNamespace do? What does it reference? What does it mean? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing Actually I think I was missing something, because in my opinion, this was a no brainer and I didn't expect these answers at all. For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. I don't know if you see what I mean though, I may be making this more complicated than it is :) in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. Yes I was criticized for suggesting that a Definition List was may be more appropriate. I'm *really* surprised that so many people on *this* list replied saying that using a table in this case would be ok. Because in my opinion it's not. I'm not saying that people should not use a table for this, I'm just saying that I don't think it is the proper solution in this particular case. And I do think there is a definitive answer :-) Anyway, this was my examples using a Definition List http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/ http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/with_no_image.asp Thanks to all who responded --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
thanks for your explanation. dwain On 3/7/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing Actually I think I was missing something, because in my opinion, this was a no brainer and I didn't expect these answers at all. For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. I don't know if you see what I mean though, I may be making this more complicated than it is :) in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. Yes I was criticized for suggesting that a Definition List was may be more appropriate. I'm *really* surprised that so many people on *this* list replied saying that using a table in this case would be ok. Because in my opinion it's not. I'm not saying that people should not use a table for this, I'm just saying that I don't think it is the proper solution in this particular case. And I do think there is a definitive answer :-) Anyway, this was my examples using a Definition List http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/ http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/with_no_image.asp Thanks to all who responded --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
