Re: [WSG] html vs. html - neither.
Sounds like Red Dot... On Jun 20 2008, at 11:25, Rob Enslin wrote: I must say that I find it quite alarming that any professional web developers believe that a CMS must produce URLs for dynamically generated pages (not files) which say .htm or .html on the end. Dave, it's not that they (CMS vendor) believes it needs to be done or indeed compulsory, it's merely a case of 'this is what our system produces by deflault'. I just happened to notice the change and flagged it up with them as simply asked why? Incidently, in the CMS I'm refering to it allows the administrator to remove extensions if desired. So, I could have http://mysite.com/ register as a web page. Rob 2008/6/20 Dave Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I must say that I find it quite alarming that any professional web developers believe that a CMS must produce URLs for dynamically generated pages (not files) which say .htm or .html on the end. My colleagues and I have adopted sites built by such developers, and I can tell you that misconceptions like the necessity of .htm or .html suffices were only the tip of iceberg. If a site is actually a legacy static site made up of files, then . might be relevant (although setting up webserver rules to abstract away file suffice is pretty trivial, and it's much nicer for URL readability and SEO), but nowadays if you're building a dynamic site on a decent CMS, adding the .html (never .htm - that demonstrates dubious taste in server OSs) to the end of URLs for dynamically generated content is painfully old school and, as the W3C and other posters have pointed out, quite unnecessary - sort of like a www on the front of a web URL is (or should be). Dave Rob Enslin wrote: Hi peeps, I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard) Is this true? Any thoughts? Cheers, Rob -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] html vs. html - neither.
Who is using Red Dot for CMS? We recently went through a merger of several companies (UNIFI) and some of us use Red Dot, and some (us here in Cincinnati) use Stellent - currently we are going through upgrade of older Stellent to Oracle CMS. Any insights on these two CMS? Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2008 02:36 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subjec Re: [WSG] html vs. html - neither. Sounds like Red Dot... On Jun 20 2008, at 11:25, Rob Enslin wrote: I must say that I find it quite alarming that any professional web developers believe that a CMS must produce URLs for dynamically generated pages (not files) which say .htm or .html on the end. Dave, it's not that they (CMS vendor) believes it needs to be done or indeed compulsory, it's merely a case of 'this is what our system produces by deflault'. I just happened to notice the change and flagged it up with them as simply asked why? Incidently, in the CMS I'm refering to it allows the administrator to remove extensions if desired. So, I could have http://mysite.com/register as a web page. Rob 2008/6/20 Dave Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I must say that I find it quite alarming that any professional web developers believe that a CMS must produce URLs for dynamically generated pages (not files) which say .htm or .html on the end. My colleagues and I have adopted sites built by such developers, and I can tell you that misconceptions like the necessity of .htm or .html suffices were only the tip of iceberg. If a site is actually a legacy static site made up of files, then . might be relevant (although setting up webserver rules to abstract away file suffice is pretty trivial, and it's much nicer for URL readability and SEO), but nowadays if you're building a dynamic site on a decent CMS, adding the .html (never .htm - that demonstrates dubious taste in server OSs) to the end of URLs for dynamically generated content is painfully old school and, as the W3C and other posters have pointed out, quite unnecessary - sort of like a www on the front of a web URL is (or should be). Dave Rob Enslin wrote: Hi peeps, I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard) Is this true? Any thoughts? Cheers, Rob -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? I noticed FF2 wasn't using zooming but FF3 is and I know IE and Safari already do it. Any background information in this? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 13:41, James Jeffery wrote: Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? The latest version of each of the big four do by default. Happily, it can be turned off in at least some of them. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
The latest versions of the 4 major browsers (IE, Opera, Safari and Firefox) all do zooming. It is *relatively* safe to assume that Firefox, Safari and Opera users will update their browsers on a regular basis as these browsers all have to be sought out and downloaded initially. However IE6 still hangs around and doesn't support page zooming, so I believe that you still have to check font resizing on layouts rather than assuming that all users can zoom. Font resizing is also available on all browsers so should be tested for anyway. That's my thought anyway. Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? I noticed FF2 wasn't using zooming but FF3 is and I know IE and Safari already do it. Any background information in this? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 2:14 PM, James Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The latest versions of the 4 major browsers (IE, Opera, Safari and Firefox) all do zooming. It is *relatively* safe to assume that Firefox, Safari and Opera users will update their browsers on a regular basis as these browsers all have to be sought out and downloaded initially. However IE6 still hangs around and doesn't support page zooming, so I believe that you still have to check font resizing on layouts rather than assuming that all users can zoom. Font resizing is also available on all browsers so should be tested for anyway. That's my thought anyway. -- Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? I noticed FF2 wasn't using zooming but FF3 is and I know IE and Safari already do it. Any background information in this? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 14:55, Mark Stickley wrote: I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, which may not be what the user wants (when horizontal scrolling ensues). The line which made this clear to me was Georg's: wanting or having a need for larger text, doesn't mean one has or want a larger screen and/or browser-window. I've recently redesigned my own site in an elastic format, but I'm now wondering maybe that was not the best choice. It's actually only a temporary redesign so I'll have the opportunity to revisit the decision soon. I wonder to what extent the browser vendors sought feedback re. the pros and cons of zooming, because certainly Georg's comment would seem to apply to zooming as much as it did elastic/em-based layouts. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Stickley Sent: 03 July 2008 14:56 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, I think you meant to say MAY grow - a carefully designed elastic layout will not expand the viewport horizontally. Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
That's such a good point - that's been available since Windows 95 - possibly before. Surely if that's the behaviour they were after they would just use the functions built in to the operating system. Mark On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Mark Stickley *Sent:* 03 July 2008 14:56 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
That's the layout I am working on now for a large secured site. You have to make sure, that almost all values are using ems and percent, and that there are no fixed widths anywhere in the blocks of content. - this way you will not get horizontal scrolling when enlarging site. Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2008 10:25 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subjec RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, I think you meant to say MAY grow - a carefully designed elastic layout will not expand the viewport horizontally. Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] 3rd in Stuttgart
Good Morning WSG list. (: I am a Brazilian guy on a trip schedule to Stuttgart/Germany on the 3rd of October, now I am working in the Design field focused on Usability and Accessibility (front end engineering) here in Brazil. I will use my holidays to Europe in order to meet some European agencies. I would like to know if somebody on this list works on some agency in Germany in order for us to meet. Best Regards Maurivan Luiz Curitiba, Brazil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Validation
Hi everyone, I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem when i have to validate the page. Can someone help me out? -- Fuji kusaka *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Validation
On 3 Jul 2008, at 17:01, Fuji kusaka wrote: I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem when i have to validate the page. Can someone help me out? http://validator.w3.org/docs/help.html#faq-flash -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Validation
Google is your friend: SWFObject2 On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Fuji kusaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem when i have to validate the page. Can someone help me out? -- Fuji kusaka *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Validation
Hi Fuji, Take a look at http://www.swffix.org/. On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Fuji kusaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem when i have to validate the page. Can someone help me out? -- Fuji kusaka *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Samuel Santos http://www.samaxes.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Validation
Many parts of the object tag can make a validator upset - especially the embed portion. You're best bet is to add the flash using javascript via one of the popular scripts like swfobject, ufo etc... Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fuji kusaka wrote: Hi everyone, I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem when i have to validate the page. Can someone help me out? -- Fuji kusaka *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;fax:886-301-8045 tel;home:609-886-9660 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Validation
You can have standards compliant Flash instances (even though the content of the flash swf itself may possibly not be standards- compliant itself) without JavaScript. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ Is one source for this information. Joe On Jul 03, 2008, at 17:30, Joseph Taylor wrote: Many parts of the object tag can make a validator upset - especially the embed portion. You're best bet is to add the flash using javascript via one of the popular scripts like swfobject, ufo etc... Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fuji kusaka wrote: Hi everyone, I have a flash animation in my webpage and this causes a big problem when i have to validate the page. Can someone help me out? -- Fuji kusaka *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** joe.vcf == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? I think web developers have an irrational fear of scrollbars :-) They are tools to scroll a window, not signs of bad design. I have never encountered a friend, family member or other civilian who has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary. For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout. Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? Probably not. There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Juliette Cox/Person/DOJ is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 02/07/2008 and will not return until 07/07/2008. I am out of the office until Monday 7 July. If you have any queries relating to web information architecture or categories, please contact Colette Corr on 41595. If your query isn't urgent, I will respond on Monday. PRIVATE CONFIDENTIAL The content of this e-mail and any attachments may be private and confidential, intended only for use of the individual or entity named. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you must not read, forward, print, copy, disclose, use or store in any way the information this e-mail or any attachment contains. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete or destroy all copies of this e-mail and any attachments. Our organisation respects the privacy of individuals. For a copy of our privacy policy please go to our website or contact us. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I have never encountered a friend, family member or other civilian who has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary. A horizontal scrollbar does not prevent users from accessing content but it reduces the efficiency with which they can do so. Not only does zooming introduce the horizontal scrollbar but it greatly increases the amount of vertical scrolling that is required compared with text sizing. Horizontal scrollbars cause terrible usability problems for people who use screen magnification because the scrollbar is not present except when they scroll to the very bottom of the page. If the content they wanted to view was in the top right-hand corner they have to scroll to the bottom of the page and back up again. Having seen this occur during many user testing sessions I advise strongly against horizontal scrollbars. In my view, zooming and text sizing are appropriate for different needs. For relatively small text size increases I think that text sizing is appropriate because it does not result in a horizontal scrollbar. If larger text sizes are required I would advise people to use the zoom function because the page layout often breaks badly at large text sizes (there are limits to what is achievable even when a site is designed well). Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sparber Sent: 03 July 2008 20:41 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? I think web developers have an irrational fear of scrollbars :-) They are tools to scroll a window, not signs of bad design. I have never encountered a friend, family member or other civilian who has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary. For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout. Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? Probably not. There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote: an irrational fear of scrollbars When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not bother to look. Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I haven't been totally following this thread, but My 15 yo son has low vision. It has come on very recently (last 6 months), He is 20/200 corrected. We have discovered the zoom feature on the old version of Mac OSx... he prefers it much more than enlarging text. We have played with some of the accessibility features on the the PC and they don't work for him. He has his own pc laptop and and hasn't been on it in months, he prefers to use my mac after I go to bed. The left right scroll and design in general becomes irrelevant in these situations. He wants to do what everyone else does and doesn't really care about scrolling to do it. His issues have affected how I feel as a developer. It really does boil down to usability. We are going to get some more testing and in depth help the 25th of this month (for any who are wondering). I am sure I will learn about all the things they have to offer him beyond zooming on a mac but for now this is working for us. -Trisha in Tulsa -Original Message- From: Al Sparber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 7/3/2008 2:41 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout. Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? Probably not. There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Trisha Salas [EMAIL PROTECTED] I haven't been totally following this thread, but My 15 yo son has low vision. It has come on very recently (last 6 months), He is 20/200 corrected. We have discovered the zoom feature on the old version of Mac OSx... he prefers it much more than enlarging text. We have played with some of the accessibility features on the the PC and they don't work for him. He has his own pc laptop and and hasn't been on it in months, he prefers to use my mac after I go to bed. The left right scroll and design in general becomes irrelevant in these situations. He wants to do what everyone else does and doesn't really care about scrolling to do it. His issues have affected how I feel as a developer. It really does boil down to usability. We are going to get some more testing and in depth help the 25th of this month (for any who are wondering). I am sure I will learn about all the things they have to offer him beyond zooming on a mac but for now this is working for us. - More important than anything we can discuss here, I wish your son well and pray that his vision problems are managed. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote: an irrational fear of scrollbars When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not bother to look. Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO. I think you have to first buy into someone else's usability tests. I don't. I am skeptical of many usability manifestos. That said, I'm not totally sure one way or another on this issue. What I am sure of is that I have not conducted conclusive testing, but the testing I have conducted leads me to believe, for now, that fear of scrolling is a fear that is far more prevalent among web developers than it is for the general population. As for right columns falling outside the viewing area - whose viewing area? What size window? How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear? -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Adobe's PDF format now an ISO standard
http://www.iso.org/iso/pressrelease.htm?refid=Ref1141 The* Portable Document Format (PDF)*, undeniably one of the most commonly used formats for electronic documents, is now accessible as an ISO International Standard - ISO 32000-1. - Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Well here's a guy who has done a bit of usability testing. To quote from the article: We know from user testing that users hate horizontal scrolling and always comment negatively when they encounter it. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20050711.html Of course he could be entirely wrong but I don't know of any more credible research than his. How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear Quite a few actually, now that designers tend to design for a minimum screen resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people still using lower resolutions. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sparber Sent: 03 July 2008 22:17 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming From: Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote: an irrational fear of scrollbars When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not bother to look. Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO. I think you have to first buy into someone else's usability tests. I don't. I am skeptical of many usability manifestos. That said, I'm not totally sure one way or another on this issue. What I am sure of is that I have not conducted conclusive testing, but the testing I have conducted leads me to believe, for now, that fear of scrolling is a fear that is far more prevalent among web developers than it is for the general population. As for right columns falling outside the viewing area - whose viewing area? What size window? How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear? -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 2008/07/03 22:32 (GMT+0100) Steve Green apparently typed: designers tend to design for a minimum screen resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people still using lower resolutions. This is most unfortunate for all, because screen resolution should be a non-factor in designing for the web. The web is not paper. When you measure the whole design in characters, or fractions thereof, resolution does not matter. Zoom, whether text only or page, is a defense mechanism designed to counteract stupid/naive/rude design. When a design is _properly_ made using character measurements, users don't need to zoom. -- Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry. Ephesians 4:26 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well here's a guy who has done a bit of usability testing. To quote from the article: We know from user testing that users hate horizontal scrolling and always comment negatively when they encounter it. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20050711.html Of course he could be entirely wrong but I don't know of any more credible research than his. I know a lot of folks respect him. I'm not a huge fan, though. Like everything, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear Quite a few actually, now that designers tend to design for a minimum screen resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people still using lower resolutions. A user's video settings do not equate with the size of his window. Taking the approach I see so often taken by some web designers, if I were truly going to design a page for people whose monitors were set to 1024 x 768, I would have to assume the actual browser window would not, as is often the case, be maximized. Now what do I do? ;-) I don't intend to be argumentative and I really do wish I knew what the answer were. Since I don't, I have to conclude that there are probably many different answers. Sites like A List Apart or my own can probably get away with a wider fixed design because of our audience. If I were making a site for health information, it might wind up a lot more flexible. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
- More important than anything we can discuss here, I wish your son well and pray that his vision problems are managed. *** Al, Thanks for the thoughts and prayers...it appears that there isn't anything they can really do at this point. We are just going to have to learn how to manage this. It is a bit frustrating because this kid is the most physically active and high energy of my kids and he is frustrated at times with this limitation. I will say this has really changed the way I think about usability and design. It has become 'real' to me and not just a best practice (which I tried to adhere to before) It is interesting to read all the opinions and discussion because it helps me think through things whether I agree or not. Thanks! Trisha in Tulsa *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Talking about zooming. I am trying to use PHP to create a web page that has a default font size (layout_medium.css). As it stands, I have broken everything since I am so new to PHP. I use Firefox 3.0 as my main browser. It looks Okay, however, the H1 foreground and background colors are not happening. I should have white text on red. And the Guide Star logo and graphical text is not aligning with the bottom left corner of the curve graphic. I am not sure how to get IE6/7 to play along Or get PHP for Button1 Increase font size an button two decrease font size. Any Help is welcome. HTML http://www.choroideremia.org/new/crf_header.php CSS http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_medium.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_large.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_small.css Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http://www.infoforce-services.com Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into the light. - Helen Keller *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
