Re: [WSG] I need a professional eye.
Thank you I have printed the email and have started to fix them. That is way more that I expected. But that is why I asked I need a professional eye On 30/01/10 17:06, Paul Novitski wrote: At 1/29/2010 08:36 PM, PurencoolGmail wrote: The site is www.purencool.com All I want to know is there too much css? No. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com PS: Are you *sure* this is all you want to know? What does the question mean? Too much CSS for what? If you're concerned about the size of your stylesheets, the two supporting the home page are only 5 KB so I would say No. If you're worried about the number of CSS rules, perhaps because you're afraid it will be difficult to maintain or degrade browser response time, I would say flatly No. Or do you mean that you're worried that the site might be over-styled? I would say no, it looks simple and open (which I like). I'm not positive what over-styled might look like, perhaps with too much decorative detail, but your site doesn't have that problem. I do see some problems with the site most of which have nothing to do with CSS. (Yes, I know you didn't ask.) - Neither the image fader nor the calculator worked properly in my Win Firefox 3.6 or IE8. Shall we assume they're still under development? - The calculator breaks on text-only zoom enlargement. It would be simple enough to style its widths in ems so that it grows naturally with text zoom. - I dislike the fact that your nav menus don't have hover states or an indicator of which page we're currently on. - The footer menu text looks too high in the blue bar at normal zoom, and both menus quickly break cosmetically on text-only zoom. (It's easy to make menus with stretchable graphics.) - The demos aren't enough to sell your apps. I recommend that you take a few paragraphs to detail their functionality, scope, limitations, and flexibility. I don't want to have to download a script merely to find out whether I can use it; that feels pushy and invasive. - It's irritating that your demo pages lose the nav menus so the only way to get back to the rest of your site is by Backing up. Keep in mind that many people will land on a demo page right from a search engine or other link and you want to make it easy for them to browse your site from there. - I think you should let people view the demos immediately, either right there on your home page or on the Services page. Why do we need to go to a separate demo page at all? Far better to integrate the apps right into your own site as an implicit demonstration of their integratability. - Personally I think the delay on your fader is at least twice as long as it should be. Making people wait to watch a cosmetic effect is irritating. - Your home page headline Latest Product or Service is odd. First, the ambiguity of the headline is mysterious; after all, it's your site so you should know whether the content below is a product or a service which are two very different things. Second, you don't have a Products page listed in your nav menus, and the Product or Service featured on your home page is in fact a product, creating an unnecessary and off-putting confusion. Perhaps Services in the top nav menu should be P S. Any feed back would be great and you don't have to be nice. *Whew!* Good luck with your site. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- bJohn Cullen/b purencool.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] I need a professional eye.
thanks for your ideas
On 30/01/10 18:21, David Laakso wrote:
PurencoolGmail wrote:
Hi everyone,
I need a professional eye.
I have been developing this site for two weeks
(with help from this email group) and now that
I think I have finished. All I want to know is there
too much css?
The site is www.purencool.com
Any feed back would be great and you don't have to
be nice.
No pro-here here about.
She's nice.
Mind the-stack [1]: watch the footer (Mac OS 10.4).
body
{ /* font: 93%/1.5em Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif !important;
line-height:1.5em;*/
font : 100%/1.4 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;}
h2, h3, h4, h5{/*font: 1.3em Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif;*/}
#leftNav ul li a{/*font-size:.95em;*/}
#leftNav h6{ /*font: 1.2em Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif;*/}
#leftNav p{/*font: .8em Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif;
line-height:1.3em;*/}
[1] Helvetica Neue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica#Neue_Helvetica_.281983.29
Best,
~d
--
bJohn Cullen/b
purencool.com
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Re: [WSG] I need a professional eye.
thank you do you mean the menu images? and I will look at the css On 30/01/10 18:55, tee wrote: The site is www.purencool.com I caught a border:hidden in one of the h1 elements. Not wanting to sound like a fool so I googled it first to see if this is something I have not learned to use after all these years writing CSS, but I find no references. The design is clean, pleasant to look at, but the jagged curve image spoils it. It looks more bevel than curve, I think it will echo well with your logo if it's smooth curve. And why is that emptiness between left column and main content? White space is important element for a design/layout, emptiness isn't. Also, the menu items at footer section is best centralized vertically within the blue bar. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- bJohn Cullen/b purencool.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] I need a professional eye.
I am trying to stear clear of jQuery so that I can learn javaScript Can you tell me what the error console says in firefox I don't have a mac On 31/01/10 06:12, jomali wrote: I tried your calculator example on Mac OSX 10.6 in Firefox, Safari and Chrome and it did not work in any of them. Also, why duplicate functionality that already exists in jQuery. You can get fully functional fading and a plug-in calculator that work across all current browsers and all operating systems using jQuery. John On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:36 PM, PurencoolGmail purenc...@gmail.com mailto:purenc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I need a professional eye. I have been developing this site for two weeks (with help from this email group) and now that I think I have finished. All I want to know is there too much css? The site is www.purencool.com http://www.purencool.com Any feed back would be great and you don't have to be nice. -- bJohn Cullen/b purencool.com http://purencool.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- bJohn Cullen/b purencool.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] I need a professional eye.
Reply below: On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:19 AM, PurencoolGmail purenc...@gmail.com wrote: I am trying to stear clear of jQuery so that I can learn javaScript That makes sense. However, I'm not sure it's ethical to market yourself as a Javascript programmer while you are only learning Javascript. Can you tell me what the error console says in firefox I don't have a mac I didn't fire up Firefox, but the Javascript console in Chrome says Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected Identifier. The error is in line 94, where you return eval(rFree CalculatoreturnValue); without ever setting CalculatorreturnValue. I don't see how this would work in any browser or any operating system. On 31/01/10 06:12, jomali wrote: I tried your calculator example on Mac OSX 10.6 in Firefox, Safari and Chrome and it did not work in any of them. Also, why duplicate functionality that already exists in jQuery. You can get fully functional fading and a plug-in calculator that work across all current browsers and all operating systems using jQuery. John On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:36 PM, PurencoolGmail purenc...@gmail.comwrote: Hi everyone, I need a professional eye. I have been developing this site for two weeks (with help from this email group) and now that I think I have finished. All I want to know is there too much css? The site is www.purencool.com Any feed back would be great and you don't have to be nice. -- bJohn Cullen/b purencool.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- bJohn Cullen/bpurencool.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Dani Well observed. I am using WordPress presets here. Not had much time 'proving' my accessibility skills on Semantix Blog, however feel free to find such issues on Flexewebs.com. @Peter Mount I am not saying 'Accessibility does not matter!', I was asking a question rather. I don't have an argument to say not providing accessible solution for target audience is ever good. However, you lot may have a great site for a desktop user, but I (not a disabled user) will be looking at it via BlackBerry and it has a kak user experience (poor usability). Verdict: fail (in my view). Accessibility = good, usability = 0. Overall, fail. @Matthew Pennell You are confused with the 'broken wrist' issue. If I have a broken (right) wrist (I am right handed), I won't be able to use a mouse (with my right hand). I also won't be able to use keyboard with that right hand. My choice is to use the mouse or keyboard with the left hand. So your 'keyboard accessibility' example is highly flawed. What happens in practice (I can think of a circumstance where a colleague had a broken wrist at work) is that people take time off until they recover, since their work performance working with one hand is usually not good enough to be at work (think of a Project Manager typing a long report with one hand - it's not going to happen on time essentially). So in practice what happens is that (as a practical example) a Large PLC I worked for wanted to enable a 10 minute pension processing time per claim, as opposed to 30-40 minutes per claim. Even able bodied people had a problem meeting this target let alone someone with a broken wrist or who was permanently disable. In practice what happens in commercial environments is that people get assigned to roles which they can fulfil considering the disability they have. You might see this as discrimination, and I do too to a great extent, but it's the reality we live in. I think that legislation in UK also states that if an employee deems the person not to be able to do the job within expected targets, they have the right to refuse him/her work. It's just the way it is. Now for us to say that a solution costing £26M to develop, should have another £1M invested into accessibility (testing, implementing, etc.) is a bit of a far fetched argument to be honest. The way the given PLC looks at it is that 'we just won't employ disabled people for this role as they will not be able to meet our targets anyway - we will sign-post them to another role they can do'. Also Matthew can you show me some of the (best) work you have done in the past please? What's your personal website address? You seem to be very quick to judge me and my abilities, but your arguments sound pretty weak as they are not rooted in reality I have observed in the last 10 years working with various PLCs, local and Central Government in UK, number of small sites as well as coding my own web apps in spare time. Thanks, Jason On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Matthew Pennell matthewpenn...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:16 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: @Thierry I don't see how breaking a wrist has much to do with accessibility? Broken wrist = inability to use a mouse. If your site/intranet/app is not keyboard-accessible, how is that person supposed to use it? Now you've exposed your naivety, I suggest you let the good people of this thread educate you so you can create better work in the future. :) - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! @Matthew Pennell You are confused with the 'broken wrist' issue. If I have a broken (right) wrist (I am right handed), I won't be able to use a mouse (with my right hand). I also won't be able to use keyboard with that right hand. My choice is to use the mouse or keyboard with the left hand. So your 'keyboard accessibility' example is highly flawed. For many people, it is difficult to use the mouse with their other hand. It is even more difficult when a site offers very small clickable areas, pure CSS menus, etc. Things that your intranet users could be facing since you've ignored to implement basic usability/accessibility features. Also, if you can only use one hand, then it is better to keep it on the keyboard rather than switching back and forth between the keyboard and the mouse (you're more productive that way). Anyway, I have another one for you: one of the rep of your company is on the road, he logs to your Intranet to find out that the trackpad on his laptop is busted. What should he do next (beside taking some time off)? What happens in practice (I can think of a circumstance where a colleague had a broken wrist at work) is that people take time off until they recover, since their work performance working with one hand is usually not good enough to be at work (think of a Project Manager typing a long report with one hand - it's not going to happen on time essentially). Let's say that the person injured is a guy who does not use a computer all day, but he's a key player and many people rely on the data he keys in every day. Do you still send this guy home? -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Thierry I think keyboard accessibility is relatively easy thing to implement as it tends to follow naturally if one uses even semi-decent semantic HTML. It's not 'expensive' to implement. I would deem every browser based solution a total fail if it didn't have keyboard accessibility supported. However I still feel that your examples are far fetched (i.e. unlikely). Laptop track pad is likely not to be an issue as for example on my current laptop I have two onboard mice (trackpad and nipple), but I use an external mouse. Therefore I have 3 mice altogether. Chances of them all failing are minimal - virtually none. Key players (in my experience) tend to dictate their work to their secretaries and avoid using web tools as much as possible as they tend to know that's not going to keep them ahead of the game (however much we would like to think that 'tweeting is essentially for survival today'). They still prefer verbalising over the phone or such likes for some reason. I can't actually 'see' this example happening. Intranets are usually used within larger organisations. Noone inside larger organisations is irreplaceable in my experience. So your example is simply strange to me in this scenario. Essentially if large organisations were having major issues crop up because of accessibility, they would do everything in their power to implement (extra) accessibility for their intranets and web sites. That's my experience to be honest. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! @Matthew Pennell You are confused with the 'broken wrist' issue. If I have a broken (right) wrist (I am right handed), I won't be able to use a mouse (with my right hand). I also won't be able to use keyboard with that right hand. My choice is to use the mouse or keyboard with the left hand. So your 'keyboard accessibility' example is highly flawed. For many people, it is difficult to use the mouse with their other hand. It is even more difficult when a site offers very small clickable areas, pure CSS menus, etc. Things that your intranet users could be facing since you've ignored to implement basic usability/accessibility features. Also, if you can only use one hand, then it is better to keep it on the keyboard rather than switching back and forth between the keyboard and the mouse (you're more productive that way). Anyway, I have another one for you: one of the rep of your company is on the road, he logs to your Intranet to find out that the trackpad on his laptop is busted. What should he do next (beside taking some time off)? What happens in practice (I can think of a circumstance where a colleague had a broken wrist at work) is that people take time off until they recover, since their work performance working with one hand is usually not good enough to be at work (think of a Project Manager typing a long report with one hand - it's not going to happen on time essentially). Let's say that the person injured is a guy who does not use a computer all day, but he's a key player and many people rely on the data he keys in every day. Do you still send this guy home? -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
Accessibility does matter, but I do think that many people on this list do get too close to the accessibility at all cost point of view. Lets take the example of google finance http://www.google.com/finance?q=gbpaud quite a cool site using flash and js to navigate quite a large amount of data (make sure you expand the slider at the bottom of the flash graph to change the time scale and see how the list of news articles on the right changes). How could this site be modified to be meaningfully controlled by using the keyboard alone? I would be very interested to hear people's opinions on the following points: • is this site accessible? and if not, please give real examples of saying how it is hard for people with disabilities to use • how could you make it more accessible without introducing a huge amount of extra work for the developers and without having an adverse effect for non-disabled users? Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the internet, I don't think web developers should really be that concerned with accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we have hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that should be concentrating on accessibility are people working on creating browsers and operating systems because they can really do something about it. Andy -- a...@universalsprout.com Andrew Stewart Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113 London :: +44(0)7900 245 789 www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
On 31/01/2010 22:50, Andrew Stewart wrote: Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the internet, I don't think web developers should really be that concerned with accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we have hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that should be concentrating on accessibility are people working on creating browsers and operating systems because they can really do something about it. Garbage in, garbage out. If you don't structure your content properly, add necessary hooks, and generally show basic awareness of what the problems are and circumvent them, there is no magical pixie-dust-powered technology in the browser or OS that can accessify your content. And, for the last time, can we drop this whole accessibility = non-JavaScript solution according to WCAG 1 slant? WCAG 2 has been out for over a year now, and that's the yardstick we use. And yes, WCAG 2 allows for scripting, or any other accessibility-supported technologies. But that still means that these technologies need to be used in a responsible and correct way...because that's the power over what the user sees. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! @Thierry I think keyboard accessibility is relatively easy thing to implement as it tends to follow naturally if one uses even semi-decent semantic HTML. It's not 'expensive' to implement. I would deem every browser based solution a total fail if it didn't have keyboard accessibility supported. However I still feel that your examples are far fetched (i.e. unlikely). Laptop track pad is likely not to be an issue as for example on my current laptop I have two onboard mice (trackpad and nipple), but I use an external mouse. Therefore I have 3 mice altogether. Chances of them all failing are minimal - virtually none. Key players (in my experience) tend to dictate their work to their secretaries and avoid using web tools as much as possible as they tend to know that's not going to keep them ahead of the game (however much we would like to think that 'tweeting is essentially for survival today'). They still prefer verbalising over the phone or such likes for some reason. I can't actually 'see' this example happening. Intranets are usually used within larger organisations. Noone inside larger organisations is irreplaceable in my experience. So your example is simply strange to me in this scenario. Essentially if large organisations were having major issues crop up because of accessibility, they would do everything in their power to implement (extra) accessibility for their intranets and web sites. That's my experience to be honest. I guess you solve all the problems by: - requiring one secretary per key player in the company - requiring that everybody has at least 2 pointing devices (with spare batteries as well) - requiring that people give a 2 weeks heads up before getting injured (because even if nobody is irreplaceable, transition costs big bucks) Anyway, I think the discussion is getting silly/absurd... -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
On 31/01/2010 21:05, Jason Grant wrote: Now for us to say that a solution costing £26M to develop, should have another £1M invested into accessibility (testing, implementing, etc.) is a bit of a far fetched argument to be honest. The way the given PLC looks at it is that 'we just won't employ disabled people for this role as they will not be able to meet our targets anyway - we will sign-post them to another role they can do'. Which, in the UK, is a very clear-cut case of discrimination. The DDA mandates reasonable adjustments in the workplace, which should normally be taken pre-emptively. The 'we just won't employ disabled people for this role is a potent mix of ignorance and arrogance. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
My point about OS/browsers is that they can easily adjust the colours displayed to the screen for the whole operating system, which makes the whole computer more useable by colour blind users. Which is a much better solution than spending hours removing reds/greens etc from your site because it can be adjusted for specific users and will work with every website/application. But to go back to the main concrete point of my email - is google finance accessible? - and if it isn't please explain how. Whilst there are no-javascript and no-flash versions of google finance they are such a poor imitation of the full site, I don't think they really count. Yes they display the same information but not in a usable manner. Andy -- a...@universalsprout.com Andrew Stewart Sydney :: +61(0)416 607 113 London :: +44(0)7900 245 789 www.universalsprout.com :: websites that sprout On 1 Feb 2010, at 10:10, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: On 31/01/2010 22:50, Andrew Stewart wrote: Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the internet, I don't think web developers should really be that concerned with accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we have hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that should be concentrating on accessibility are people working on creating browsers and operating systems because they can really do something about it. Garbage in, garbage out. If you don't structure your content properly, add necessary hooks, and generally show basic awareness of what the problems are and circumvent them, there is no magical pixie- dust-powered technology in the browser or OS that can accessify your content. And, for the last time, can we drop this whole accessibility = non- JavaScript solution according to WCAG 1 slant? WCAG 2 has been out for over a year now, and that's the yardstick we use. And yes, WCAG 2 allows for scripting, or any other accessibility-supported technologies. But that still means that these technologies need to be used in a responsible and correct way...because that's the power over what the user sees. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:51 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! Accessibility does matter, but I do think that many people on this list do get too close to the accessibility at all cost point of view. Lets take the example of google finance http://www.google.com/finance?q=gbpaud quite a cool site using flash and js to navigate quite a large amount of data (make sure you expand the slider at the bottom of the flash graph to change the time scale and see how the list of news articles on the right changes). How could this site be modified to be meaningfully controlled by using the keyboard alone? I would be very interested to hear people's opinions on the following points: . is this site accessible? and if not, please give real examples of saying how it is hard for people with disabilities to use . how could you make it more accessible without introducing a huge amount of extra work for the developers and without having an adverse effect for non-disabled users? Whilst I think there are some silly impenetrable sites on the internet, I don't think web developers should really be that concerned with accessibility - not because it isn't worth it, but because we have hardly any power over what the user sees. The real people that should be concentrating on accessibility are people working on creating browsers and operating systems because they can really do something about it. I'm sorry, but this is a piece of garbage. They are removing outline on real links, but they leave it on elements that don't trigger any behavior via keyboard input. If they ignore such basics I don't expect the rest of the page to be much better. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? On 1 Feb 2010, at 10:31, Thierry Koblentz wrote: From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Stewart Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:51 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! http://www.google.com/finance?q=gbpaud I'm sorry, but this is a piece of garbage. They are removing outline on real links, but they leave it on elements that don't trigger any behavior via keyboard input. If they ignore such basics I don't expect the rest of the page to be much better. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? The same ease of use?! Drop the mouse and give it a shot ;) Besides that, did you look at the markup? Deeply nested tables, DIVs in As... They just don't care. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
On 31/01/2010 23:46, Andrew Stewart wrote: Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? Step one: make the flash itself keyboard accessible http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+keyboard+access Kbd users can then tab from one control to the next, and use arrow keys to move sliders left/right. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. GMail has an HTML only version which works OK, while Google calendar seems to have no alternative - with JS off the tool is totally inaccessible. I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? The same ease of use?! Drop the mouse and give it a shot ;) Besides that, did you look at the markup? Deeply nested tables, DIVs in As... They just don't care. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
And while we are on the topic of Google, their UX principles are as follows: http://www.google.com/corporate/ux.html Please pay attention to points 6 and 7 carefully. Thanks, Jason On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. GMail has an HTML only version which works OK, while Google calendar seems to have no alternative - with JS off the tool is totally inaccessible. I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? The same ease of use?! Drop the mouse and give it a shot ;) Besides that, did you look at the markup? Deeply nested tables, DIVs in As... They just don't care. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
On 31/01/2010 23:23, Andrew Stewart wrote: My point about OS/browsers is that they can easily adjust the colours displayed to the screen for the whole operating system, which makes the whole computer more useable by colour blind users. Which is a much better solution than spending hours removing reds/greens etc from your site because it can be adjusted for specific users and will work with every website/application. So it's really not so much we have hardly any power over what the user sees, but rather I can't be bothered spending any time looking at the few most common colour combinations that can cause problems for users who are colour blind and avoiding those, so let the OS/Browser deal with it. True, the OS/Browser/AT can work around your colour choices, but only if you implement them correctly. E.g. they can override colours you set in your CSS, but not in Flash, or in images. So again, you need to actually be aware how to build things properly. Simply saying that it shouldn't be your responsibility is not a carte blanche for not doing anything at all. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote: @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason. Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. And they're also part of the effort for accessibility http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked on is another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this does not give you a get-out-of-jail-free card. Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout. Maybe I should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either? I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. For the last time: accessibility != making it work without JavaScript. It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still accessible and usable (with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen magnifier, etc). Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off and feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can get on with actually understanding the implications of modern, standards-based, usable and accessible web development. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
Please let this be the final word... A On Jan 31, 2010, at 7:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote: @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason. Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. And they're also part of the effort for accessibility http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked on is another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this does not give you a get-out-of-jail-free card. Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout. Maybe I should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either? I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. For the last time: accessibility != making it work without JavaScript. It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still accessible and usable (with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen magnifier, etc). Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off and feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can get on with actually understanding the implications of modern, standards-based, usable and accessible web development. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Patrick You seem to be very 'touched' by these genuine remarks I am making. You should not jump to a (very wrong) conclusion that I don't know much about accessibility. I am very comfortable within the area having worked on making a major e-commerce site fully Web2.0 and AAA accessible and knowing exactly how much work there is to build solutions which are both fully featured JS wise and accessible without JS. I think I have made it clear enough times so far that work-without-JS is not the only accessibility issue I know of (I think that various colour, font, sizing, etc. guidelines even the birds on the trees understand and know by now and they are usually matters which can be dealt with using semantic HTML and a few simple tweaks in CSS). However, work-without-JS **is** a major development overhead when it comes to developing web apps, and my argument (for the Nth time now) is that in majority of the cases work-without-JS is not worth the effort which example of both Google (e.g. Calendar) and Yahoo (e.g. Flickr) exemplifies very well. Both corporations (however) will evangelise at us how we need to make our solutions fully progressively enhanced even theirs aren't. You are not really addressing my points, you are simply always coming back with: 'JS is not the only (accessibility) issue' and 'Jason is ignorant' and so on. Come with something more concrete? A concrete example perhaps? Do you have a web app which you have coded (on your own) which is fully accessible with JS? If so, show us. If not, why not? If not, do you really feel you should be so vocal in talking about this issue since you are more than likely (in that circumstance) to not fully be understanding what I am talking about? I know I may be sounding a bit harsh, but the bottom line is that we need to start getting real about some of these things I reckon. By the way, I am not calling you ignorant or other names, since I don't know you and generally have respect for other web devs, so I think you ought to start using a more intellectual approach for the sake of the list and not making yourself look less clever than you actually are. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk wrote: On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote: @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason. Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. And they're also part of the effort for accessibility http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked on is another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this does not give you a get-out-of-jail-free card. Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout. Maybe I should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either? I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. For the last time: accessibility != making it work without JavaScript. It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still accessible and usable (with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen magnifier, etc). Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off and feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can get on with actually understanding the implications of modern, standards-based, usable and accessible web development. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
This discussion has been at times interesting (where there was healthy exchange of info) and worrying (when personal criticisms were used instead of calm discussions). However, it looks like this thread has reached a point where we not gaining anything - just expressing disagreement. So, unfortunately, it is time to move on. THREAD CLOSED Please do not continue this thread Please do not reply to this email or any others in the thread Please go about your business :) Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:24 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. GMail has an HTML only version which works OK, while Google calendar seems to have no alternative - with JS off the tool is totally inaccessible. flash can be very accessible (as Patrick pointed out). And forget about JS off, what's important is that it is accessible *with* JS. See Todd Kloots' YUI presentation: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/video.php?v=kloots-yuiconf2009-a11y -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
On 2010/01/31 22:40 (GMT) Jason Grant composed: @Thierry [...] However I still feel that your examples are far fetched (i.e. unlikely). I don't, but I do think you're doing your best to rationalize compounding the difficulties that result from real-life accidents and disabilities, be they large, small, avoidable, or otherwise. These are not robots or statistics gatherers you're making unnecessary difficulty for, but real people who need to do what they need to do. -- Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
Hi people, A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor tab ordering) 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible 3. examples of flash sites which work well with screen readers (He is aware of the Harry Potter Flash site, but is after other, possibly more recent examples) Please no comments about the merits or lack of merits of Flash. This is for some research he is conduction. :) Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Div misbehaving in Safari
Hi, I have inherited a website (http://www.koomaldreaming.com.au) with my new job and in Safari and Chrome 3.x I have the content div floating away from where it should be outside of the container div to the right. Any suggestions or help? Thanks in advance -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com http://www.kick2kick.net http://www.germworks.net http://www.wotuthink.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
On 2010/02/01 14:52 (GMT+1100) Russ Weakley composed: A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor tab ordering) I can't see any pattern to tab ordering on http://www.iontelevision.com/schedule.php plus once I click on anything there I'm no longer able to leave the FF3.5.7 tab it's in using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn. I can't see any indication of focus on http://tinyurl.com/yhpy4zf 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible I'm curious how frequently real people encounter examples of such a thing. I do my best to avoid Flash sites, as Flash content invariably uses predominantly mousetype. http://webdesign-l.com/mailman/private/list/2010-January/015534.html is part of a thread on HBO's new site design, apparently devoid of functional non-Flash content, maybe useful to your colleague. -- Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
Hi Russ http://www.monotone.com.au/ as far as I can see, no tab access at all. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 2:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites Hi people, A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor tab ordering) 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible 3. examples of flash sites which work well with screen readers (He is aware of the Harry Potter Flash site, but is after other, possibly more recent examples) Please no comments about the merits or lack of merits of Flash. This is for some research he is conduction. :) Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Div misbehaving in Safari
Jermayn Parker wrote: Hi, I have inherited a website (http://www.koomaldreaming.com.au) with my new job and in Safari and Chrome 3.x I have the content div floating away from where it should be outside of the container div to the right. Any suggestions or help? Corrections on the CSS file. You may, or may not, need all of them. markup http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ca/cssd/after.htm css http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ca/cssd/after_files/main.css You are feeding Mac OS X Arial. Opera and IE prefer line-height set as a raw number. Validate the markup. ~d -- desktop http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ mobile http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
Hi Elizabeth, Once I give the Flash block on that site focus by clicking it, tabbing works fine. I couldn't find an alternative way of giving it focus. Thanks, Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie, landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172 my business: tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the dramas -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Spiegel Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 5:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites Hi Russ http://www.monotone.com.au/ as far as I can see, no tab access at all. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 2:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites Hi people, A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor tab ordering) 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible 3. examples of flash sites which work well with screen readers (He is aware of the Harry Potter Flash site, but is after other, possibly more recent examples) Please no comments about the merits or lack of merits of Flash. This is for some research he is conduction. :) Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites
Russ Weakley wrote: Hi people, A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites: 1. 2. 3. Russ 4. Mousetype. http://www.universalsprout.com/ ~d -- desktop http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ mobile http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
