Re: [WSG] css tutorial
Hi Marvin. Also, please try our Opera Web Standards Curriculum section 27 entitled CSS basics, written and contributed by Christian Heilmann. Here is the hyperlink to it: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/27-css-basics/ Hope this helps you out a bit, Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Marvin Hunkin startrekc...@gmail.comwrote: hi. well a member of blind geeks. and asked to write a short basic tutorial on css. did learn css in my web design course in 2007. and di use it a bit to tweek a web project recently. but my question is: what resources and what links to some tutorials to get a handle on how to write a short css tutorial. and how to write one. and what do i need to put in it. just asking. i do know css, but a bit rusty. and totally blind. so the biggest problem, where things are located on screen. so any one got any ideas where to start and how to write a tutorial for this technical group. Marvin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Deprecated start for lists confirmation
Hi Kevin, If you wish to write HTML5, the start attribute has been rescued from its deprecated state and may be used when needed. Here is the HTML5 working draft describing it: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#attr-ol-start Validating HTML5: W3C: http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/#validate_by_upload+with_options Under Document type select HTML5 (I'm not sure how good this one is yet.) Validator.nu (by Henri Sivonen): http://html5.validator.nu/ (This one has been in use for a while.) Hope that helps, Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Documentation and Localization Core Technologies and Consumer Engineering Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11 http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov wrote: Thanks for the responses so far! Does this mean that today's standard is to not break a list apart ever??? -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Chabot, Elliot *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:54 AM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* RE: [WSG] Deprecated start for lists confirmation The “start” attribute for lists was deprecated by § 10.2 of the HTML 4.01 specification - * http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/lists.html#adef-start *http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/lists.html#adef-start . Elliot *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.orgli...@webstandardsgroup.org ]* On Behalf Of* Erickson, Kevin (DOE) *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:17 AM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Deprecated start for lists confirmation Hello, Is the start attribute truly deprecated for a list? Is there a better way to do this? i.e. - ol class=list_style_numeric liinfo/li liinfo/li /ol anything... ol class=list_style_numeric start=3 liinfo /ol Thank you, Kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Ordered list start value
Hi T. R., Unless you are writing HTML5, @start is deprecated and will not vaildate. To solve this, please have a look at David Storey's article: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/automatic-numbering-with-css-counters/ Hope this helps, Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software Documentation Localization Core Engineering Consumer Products Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11 http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, T. R. Valentine trvalent...@gmail.comwrote: What is the proper way to start an ordered list at a value other than '1' in XHTML? I had ol start=9 flagged because 'there is no attribute start' TIA -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts
Indeed. Spot on Captain! Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software Documentation Localization Core Engineering Consumer Products Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11 http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:52 AM, lisa.kerri...@iird.vic.gov.au wrote: me too! fabulous stuff Lisa Kerrigan | Manager Content User Experience www.business.vic.gov.au; www.diird.vic.gov.au ' +61 3 9651 9176 8 lisa.kerri...@diird.vic.gov.au Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development Level 31, 121 Exhibition Street, Melbourne, Victoria 3000. Chris F.A. Johnson ch...@cfajohnson To .com wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent by: cc li...@webstandard sgroup.orgSubject Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts 23/09/2009 03:15 PM Please respond to w...@webstandardsg roup.org On Wed, 23 Sep 2009, nedlud wrote: I second that. On the other hand, after looking at a few of the links the first few times I received those messages, I now delete them unseen. On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown susi...@uq.edu.auwrote: Hi there I?d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley for taking the time to collate and send this to WSG Announce each week! I always find really interesting stuff there, and usually bookmark a couple of links from it. So, thanks Russ ? it?s really appreciated! -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** * Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development,Government of Victoria, Victoria, Australia. This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute reproduce this e-mail the attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by return e-mail. *- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards
Apologies Lorrie, I'm not sure this will help, but I try to include a Design Notes page at the end of a tutorial. This supplies some metadata about the construction of the web docs (structure, presentation, and behavior layers) which make up the tutorial. Users are free to use it whatever way they wish. Here's an example: http://frank.helpware.net/cshelp/DesignNotes.htm Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Lorrie Laskey lrmal...@bellsouth.netwrote: Frank, The content of your message did not show up, only your closing and signature. Lorrie Frank Palinkas wrote: Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Lorrie Laskey lrmal...@bellsouth.netmailto: lrmal...@bellsouth.net wrote: List, I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where I am not sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the creation of web site creation documentation? By this I mean documentation that would/might be turned over to the end user: 1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself 2. to document the project and for future reference Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to determine what information should be documented and in what format and by what specs. I hope this makes sense. If they do exist, would someone point me to them and some examples as well as any software, open source if possible, that exists. If not, are there any industry general practices that I can read? One last question, if such standard exist are they working with the W3C community and where might that info be, please? Lorrie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Lorrie Laskey lrmal...@bellsouth.netwrote: List, I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where I am not sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the creation of web site creation documentation? By this I mean documentation that would/might be turned over to the end user: 1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself 2. to document the project and for future reference Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to determine what information should be documented and in what format and by what specs. I hope this makes sense. If they do exist, would someone point me to them and some examples as well as any software, open source if possible, that exists. If not, are there any industry general practices that I can read? One last question, if such standard exist are they working with the W3C community and where might that info be, please? Lorrie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Lorrie Laskey lrmal...@bellsouth.netwrote: List, I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where I am not sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the creation of web site creation documentation? By this I mean documentation that would/might be turned over to the end user: 1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself 2. to document the project and for future reference Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to determine what information should be documented and in what format and by what specs. I hope this makes sense. If they do exist, would someone point me to them and some examples as well as any software, open source if possible, that exists. If not, are there any industry general practices that I can read? One last question, if such standard exist are they working with the W3C community and where might that info be, please? Lorrie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website for handheld devices
Hi Naveen, Please take a look at the following Dev Opera articles on mobile web development: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-and-developing-mobile-web-site/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-and-developing-mobile-web-site-1/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mobile-markup-xhtml-basic-1-1/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/opera-mobile-9-5-the-developer-angle/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/evolving-the-internet-on-your-phone-des/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-with-opera-mini-in-mind/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mobile-style-css-mobile-profile-2-0/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/web-design-with-opera-mobile-in-mind/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/how-to-serve-the-right-content-to-mobile/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/free-mobile-web-design-chapter-to-downlo/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/making-small-devices-look-great/ Hope this helps, Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Naveen Bhaskar naveenbhas...@ymail.comwrote: Hi, i want my project to be worked on handheld devices also. what are the things I should keep inmind and how do I test it? Cananybody tell me how to do it. thanks a ton in advance -- thanks and regards Naveen Bhaskar -- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible popup help
Hi Clare, Please see if this, or any part of it will be of help: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/accessible-context-sensitive-help-with-u/ There are two formats described with working examples and code samples. Hope this may be of help. Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 1:21 PM, clarele...@halifax.co.uk wrote: Hi there, We have hidden divs (popup help) on a page that are shown either by onClick or onMouseOver. When the div is shown, Jaws will not read the contents, any ideas on how to get it to work without users having to disable JS? Also does anyone have any good examples of pop up help? Thanks - Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland Number SC327000 Registered office: The Mound, Edinburgh EH1 1YZ. Authorised and regulated by Financial Services Authority. == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE and the button element
IMHO, not very semantic in nature. We need the button element to be able to carry a valid link-type attribute. Enclosing it in a form just don't cut it. It must be able to stand by itself as an alternative means to activate a hyperlink, as another aspect of its functionality. Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Nick Cowie cowie.n...@gmail.com wrote: Rob wrote: Buttons were mainly designed as triggers for javascript behaviour, I disagree, if you look at the original HTML 4 material, you will see that the button element promoted as an improved input element. Why not form action=foo.html type=postbutton type=submitfoo/button/form -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE and the button element
Indeed, and that's where the problem lies. I don't believe that using button (which must be placed within a form) purely for _hyperlink_ purposes is good practice or semantically correct. My apologies, I may have gotten a bit ahead of myself. Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:10 PM, michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: Surely the button element is REQUIRED to be enclosed in a form ?? Mike -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Frank Palinkas *Sent:* 23 February 2009 12:56 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] IE and the button element IMHO, not very semantic in nature. We need the button element to be able to carry a valid link-type attribute. Enclosing it in a form just don't cut it. It must be able to stand by itself as an alternative means to activate a hyperlink, as another aspect of its functionality. Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Announcement: Molly Holzschlag joins Opera Software
Hi All, For your guide, Molly Holzschlag, a well-known Web standards advocate, instructor, and author has joined the Opera Software team. Please refer to Molly's blog for her own thoughts on this at: http://www.molly.com/2009/02/13/i-am-an-opera-singer/ Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Validating (X)HTML + ARIA
Hi All, If you haven't seen this yet, it may be of practical use when and if needed: Validating (X)HTML + ARIA: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=107 Written by Steve Faulkner, Technical Director - TPG (The Paciello Group) Europe, Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium from his blog. Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ http://frank.helpware.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
To follow up on Micky, Christian and Rimantas, here's the latest info on HTML 5: HTML 5 Draft Recommendation — 20 November 2008: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ The Web Developer's Guide to HTML 5 - W3C Editor's Draft 19 November 2008 (written by my colleague, Lachlan Hunt): http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer Opera Software http://www.opera.com/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ http://frank.helpware.net On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I made the same decision. I still follow HTML and XHTML, but anything I do (and have a choice about) is always HTML 4.01 Strict. I think it makes more sense than XHTML 1.0 Strict at this point since we can't really use real XHTML yet. It seems to defeat the purpose if you are using a Strict DTD incorrectly. Same here and looking forward to start using HTML5, at least for the personal projects first. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Dev. For Mobile Browsers
James, please take a look here: http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/ This is a collecton of developer articles on mobile technology at the dev.opera.com. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas QA Documentation/Technical Writer Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway http://www.opera.com/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ http://frank.helpware.net On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 4:13 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone got any good resources on developing for mobile browsers? It's an area I have never really looked into, but am interested in. Cheers. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile graded browser support
If I may add to David's info, please check these sixteen mobile web articles/tutorials on dev.opera.com. They may be of help: http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/ Frank M. Palinkas QA Documentation/Technical Writer Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway http://www.opera.com/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ http://frank.helpware.net On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 6:41 PM, David Storey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a slight update to this discussion, Opera has just had a timely release of our Mobile Browser Report [1]. A short digest: 9 out of the 10 top handsets in the US are Blackberry, with 4 out of 10 in the UK. The only other country that featured a Blackberry device was Germany with 2 out of 10. Globally, apart from the US and UK, Nokia dominates along with Sony Ericsson. Samsung is strong is South Africa. Motorola are conspicuous by their absence (they only feature once in the top ten model list for the top 10 countries where Opera Mini is the most popular). Palm is now also absent. They used to be strong in the UK and US, and possibly still are with business users (I see them a lot at conferences still), but the lack of a JVM by default hampers the install rate of Java based browsers. In June Opera Mini had 14.5 million unique users (Summer months are typically quiet due to summer holidays), and 3.2 billion web pages. The list of phones should give you a good idea of what kind of phones to test on and design for, as millions of users are represented by these models. Japan is a popular mobile market, but Opera doesn't supply Opera Mini there, so there is no data. We only distribute Opera Mobile (our biggest partner KDDI - second biggest operator in Japan - calls this PC Site Viewer) in Japan due to the proliferation of high end handsets and fast data rates. [1] http://www.opera.com/mobile_report/2008/06/ On 21 Jul 2008, at 16:53, Ted Drake wrote: FYI: David Storey is one of the lead engineers of Opera Browser. It's a rare honor to have a browser architect reflect on the industry in mailing lists. Do you see similar responses from Firefox, Safari, or IE architects? So, keep his suggestions in mind, he knows what he's talking about. I just wanted to make sure people realized the relevance of his comments. You may want to go back and restore any of his messages that were deleted and save them for future use. Ted *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** David Storey Chief Web Opener, Product Manager Opera Dragonfly, Consumer Product Manager Opera Core, Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member Consumer Product Management Developer Relations Opera Software ASA Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Book ideas for updating skills to modern html xhtml standards
Hi Michael, Although not in book format, Opera Software has released The Web Standards Curriculum which can be found at: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web-standards-cur/ This may be of reference and help. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Opera Software http://www.opera.com/ http://frank.helpware.net http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a good book (something like Oreilly's nutsshell series) that works as a good desk reference for (x)html standards people recommend? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera opacity bug
Hi Tee, As James mentioned, what is the Bug Report number (#) you were issued with? I'll follow up here for you. Kind regards, Frank On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:58 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I posted a message about Opera bug last december and filed a bug report. Recently I discovered the bug also affecting js slideshow that I used for a client's site. So I tracked back the site I did last year, sure enough, the bug was not fixed in Opera 9.5 Have any of you encountered this bug in with your web projects? I googled the Opera Opacity bug, saw a few articles about it and some reported it was fixed. It never! I remember there is an Opera developer in this list, so I am positing this message here as I don't want to create an Opera account in their forum. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS
Hi Paul, There are fifteen articles here on designing, etc. for Opera Mobile and Opera Mini. http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/ Hope this may be of help. Kind regards, Frank Palinkas Opera Software On 6/24/08, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting mobile phones it would?! The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?! Any advice or links would be great. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Form best practice
Hi Jens-Uwe, Apologies for the late reply - I'm in the middle of an inter-continental move from Johannesburg to Oslo. If I can help, please take a look at my article on dev.opera.com - Accessible Context Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM Scripting: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/accessible-context-sensitive-help-with-u/ This gives you my configuration of the HTML structure for a web form, along with the JavaScript needed to reveal the embedded context sensitive help for each form field. Also, you can download a complete project package, including HTML, CSS, images, scripts, etc., from my blog site: http://frank.helpware.net Also, in the body of the article, you'll see a hyperlink to Gez Lemon's website (Juicy Studio) where another type of form layout and embedded help is detailed. Hope this helps, Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Opera Software On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:36 AM, Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, we are currently evaluating how we code up forms. In the process I'd like to review form best practices. I guess you've come across a good form with respect to either design, functionality, semantics or interaction. Please send me any bookmarks you might have of what you consider top of class. Thank you for your help! Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frank M. Palinkas *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Dreamweaver CS3
Hi James, It may also be worth looking at Microsoft's Visual Studio 2008 Web Designer Express Edition - it's completely free (It has nothing to do with the Expression series of tools). It has IDE Source Code Editors for (X)HTML, XML, CSS, and JavaScript, etc. You can also download the limited MSDN Library that accompanies it, also free of charge. There is no proprietary code injection, and you can set a markup specification for cursory validation as you write. http://www.microsoft.com/express/vwd/ Apologies if considered off-topic. Kind regards, Frank On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 1:19 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been thinking about buying the new version of Photoshop and Illustrator, as i just purchased a new dual core iMac. Currently i use BBEdit but im thinking about switching to Dreamweaver as i might aswell purchase the creative suite. Is the new dreamweaver any good for us developers? This may not seem related to web standards but i feel it does because back when i used dreamweaver - it was the days when it bloated out your code and caused friction for many developers. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frank M. Palinkas *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Good News and longdesc info
Hi folks, After almost two months of phone interviews and written tests, late yesterday I received an offer from Opera, Oslo for the Technical Writer position they had open. I'm still in shock. Some of you know I've been trying to get out of here for a while, and finally the work has paid off. This tech writer position requires hands-on knowledge and use of (X)HTML, CSS, and DOM/JavaScript by the author. This suits me perfect, seeing that all my work is done in IDE editors for those languages. Now all I have to do is live up to their standards, and I'll be ok. It's truly a privilege to be joining the Opera Team. Dwain, as part of the written exams for Opera, I was asked to devise a solution similar to the longdesc attribute problem you describe. I did, but unfortunately I'm still under an NDA regarding the Opera job application process. When I receive notification that I can publish this solution from them, I'll make sure to let you and the list know immediately. Also, I'll submit it to Chris Mills, editor of dev.opera.com to see if he thinks if fit for publication to that site. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Good News and longdesc info
Thanks Kate! One thing I failed to mention: the value of being a member of this list is priceless. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: 02 February 2008 03:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Good News and longdesc info Well done Frank!!! Kate Bichon Frisé http://jungaling.com/kynismarmissmillie/index.php Malaysia: http://julienne.wordpress.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?
Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply. As you illustrate, trying to be definitive in this situation seems pretty much impossible. It's appreciated. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Knowles Sent: Monday, 07 January, 2008 9:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence? Frank Palinkas wrote: Am I correct in thinking that behavior should target structure first, and if necessary, presentation second? Frank, when you have a choice I don't think it matters which one you choose. But this raises another question I'd like to ask...take these situations: a) the user agent has Javascript that doesn't support the DOM (but has CSS enabled) b) the user agent is Javascript enabled and not CSS enabled how common is a) (maybe not on the desktop but what about other devices?) and does b) actually exist out there? If so, then I'm not sure there's ever really a choice. e.g. in your example you would need to use both methods to cover a) and b): a) would need you to set the style to display: none and b) would need you to try and remove the node -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?
Hi Kevin, and thanks. I think I've found a simpler way to handle this. Please see my next reply to Chris Knowles. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kevin mcmonagle Sent: Monday, 07 January, 2008 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence? This is way above me but isn't that what the below method does? http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/ if so how does he do it? it seems to be the savy solution hope my reply is relevant -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?
Hi Chris,
(My apologies to the list moderators if this is getting to Behavior orientated.)
If so, then I'm not sure there's ever really a choice. e.g. in your
example you would need to use both methods to cover a) and b):
a) would need you to set the style to display: none
and b) would need you to try and remove the node
I don't know if this will satisfy the conditions you raised, but combining the
two methods with an if else statement may make sense:
/*
function remove()
{
if (remove)
{
var div = document.getElementById(remove);
div.parentNode.removeChild(div);
}
else
{
document.getElementById(remove).style.display = none;
}
}
*/
Kind regards,
Frank
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RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?
Brilliant! Thank you Chris.
Frank,
try this...
if (typeof document.removeChild != undefined) {
var div = document.getElementById(remove);
div.parentNode.removeChild(div);
} else {
document.getElementById(remove).style.display = none;
}
if you're doing a lot of checking throughout your code though set a
global flag...
var DOM = document.getElementById ? true : false;
and then...
if (DOM) {
...
}
email me direct if you want to discuss as it's probably off topic by now.
--
Chris Knowles
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[WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?
Hi All,
I hope everyone has had a pleasant, restful and blessed holiday.
May I pose a question regarding the Behavior layer with its intended effect on
presentation or structure? I'm looking for an answer according to best practice
and standards, as to which layer should we target to achieve a desired effect.
Scenario:
I have a div whose contents are only to be seen when scripting is not available
(I don't employ the noscript element). The div is given an id attribute and
value (remove) acting as a hook to an external javascript function which
performs the intended behavior. So far, so good. The function can affect either
the style or the structure of the div and its contents. Both approaches work
equally well. My question is which is the preferred/correct layer to target
when we have a choice? The functions are exhibited below:
// - behavior affects the presentation layer
function remove1()
{
document.getElementById(remove).style.display = none;
}
/
/ - behavior affects the structure layer
function remove2()
{
var div = document.getElementById(remove);
div.parentNode.removeChild(div);
}
/
Am I correct in thinking that behavior should target structure first, and if
necessary, presentation second?
Kind regards,
Frank M. Palinkas
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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
To follow up on David's message to us, here's a video from Opera Watch featuring Hakon Wium Lie (co-father of CSS and a principal owner of Opera) on the subject at hand. http://operawatch.com/news/2007/12/opera-cto-talks-about-the-operas-antitrust -complaint-against-microsoft-video.html My apologies to those who have already seen and heard this. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer/Developer -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Storey Sent: Friday, 14 December, 2007 11:16 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not involved in it in any way). The complaint is manly about getting Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't about money at all. I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't want to earn any money as a result of this complaint. Hopefully this is not one of the cases where just lawyers win. I'm hoping that IE8 comes out and surprises a lot of people with its level of standards support. That would be a win for everyone. David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] RE: Disabling Fonts in Font Stacks
Hi Philippe, How can we encourage the other (non-Mozilla) browser manufacturers to add support for this very useful feature? If I understand your question, please download, install, and have a look at Opera (release version 9.4). The tool I think you're looking for can be found by going to: Tools/Preferences/Advanced/Fonts. This opens the extensive Desired font selection dialog box. Please have a look? Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals
May I just follow on to Patrick's astute advice. A very common misconception standards/accessibility designers/developers have is that the title attribute, regardless of the element it resides in, is turned on/activated by default in most assistive technology devices. It's not. From my experience with visually disabled users employing assistive technologies, they expect that content previous to the element, or more importantly, concisely defined in the text of the element, is what they need. IMHO, title attributes, for the most part are redundant, bloat markup, and are unheeded by those devices, and thus their users, that we strive to write for. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Thursday, 29 November, 2007 18:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals Matthew Pennell It's not an abbreviated form of the full date by any stretch of the imagination. Tell that to the microformats crowd - they've practically stretched the idea of abbreviation to anything, just so they can fit their machine readable data into the page... Why not just use a span (or whatever other tag is convenient): [...] Functionally it's exactly the same as using ABBR. Except that screen readers won't expand spans or read out their title in any way. Though one could argue that screen readers should have their own heuristics to spot (the more unambiguous) roman numerals and read them out accordingly. I think maybe the more fundamental question for Tate: why are you using roman numerals if you know they're going to confuse people? Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Colour Blindness Statistics
Hi Rahul, If it will help, please see my new Fast Track tutorial, Building Accessible Static Navigation with CSS at my web page: http://frank.helpware.net. The markup and css of the navigation section is graphically explained with design emphasis being directed to color blind, hard-of-seeing and quick memory loss users. You can view it on line and also download the complete project package for your reference and experimentation. Kind regards, Frank /// I suppose I should have made myself clearer as to why I was asking for this information on this particular forum - I am writing a paper on how one can design sensibly, and take into account various impairments - colour blindness being one of them. Joe Clarke mentions that 1 in 12 people, or about 8% of the entire planet has one type of colour blindness or the other. I will probably end up using that number, unless I find a more reliable source. Thanks again, - Rahul. [1] http://www.hhmi.org/senses/b130.html [2] http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/color_blindness/prevalence.htm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] 3 New Fast Track Tutorials
Hi All, For those who may be interested, I've published three new Fast Track tutorials to the http://frank.helpware.net site: Building Accessible Static Navigation with CSS Calling Accessible Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript * Creating Auto-line Numbered Code Blocks with CSS * * These two tutorials will be presented at the upcoming 2008 WritersUA Annual Conference in March at Portland, Oregon, USA. You can reach them through the Go to the Fast Track Tutorials hyperlink on the home page of the preceding web address. All work is done in the Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 Source Code Editors for (X)HTML, CSS and JScript. I've updated and redesigned all tutorials employing the CSS 2.1 Liquid Box Model for layout/presentation, and built fully accessible static navigation for mouse and keyboard into every web page. Each web page illustrates the complete separation of Structure/Content ((X)HTML), Presentation (CSS), and Behavior (Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript), the semantic nature of the content/markup relationship, and the application of accessibility attributes and values according to the US Govt. Section 508 Rules of the ADA and the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 - Level Double A. Please use these and the other tutorials whenever you may need them. They are free to the technical writing, user assistance, and web design communities. If thoughts of a contribution come to mind, may I kindly recommend your local children's cancer crusade fund? I'd like to humbly thank all those who took their personal time and energy to review, comment, and provide technical and grammatical feedback to me. They are represented in these groups: Help Authoring Tools and Techniques (HATT), the Guild of Accessible Web Designers (GAWDS), and the Web Standards Group (WSG). Please enjoy! :-) Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Silverlight Followup - Silverlight 1.1 Alpha
For those who may be interested and haven't seen this yet, here's the address to a CodeProject article on Silverlight 1.1 Alpha: http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/SLFun.asp The 1.1 Alpha now incorporates the use of C# managed code and ASP.Net. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] javascript help
Alexander, What good will it do you if the correct answers are supplied and you have absolutely no concept as to why they are correct? Time to do some research, study, and experimentation, like everyone else. Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alexander Uribe Sent: Thursday, 01 November, 2007 6:46 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] javascript help Hi there, I have some questions for an assignment that I can't figure out. If anyone could be of assistance that would be much appreciated. Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting for? http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2E au%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3De n%5FAU%26a%3D30288_t=764581033_r=email_taglines_Join_free_OCT07_m=EXT *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] SilverLight
Thanks Christian, Agreed, more work has to be done. One problem I find with this is that the build-generated (X)HTML pages are not contained within a packaged vehicle, as in a .swf, etc. These free-standing pages are at the mercy of the Silverlight plug-in being installed on the user's OS, and at this time, it only caters for the Trident and Gecko range of browser/user agents. I'm not a managed code expert by any means, so I do stand to be corrected here. I've been through something similar before, experimenting with XML and XSLT + CSS to produce single-sourced user assistance and developer technical documentation. For instance, needing a javascript interpreter to sniff out which browser is active and then override the OS generic XSLT processor to allow a page to render in the chosen browser with its own XSLT processor. Even so, the pages I created with this method all had their structure, presentation and content dynamically generated, as in the Silverlight example, and of no use (at this stage) beyond the graphic rendering. I think that Gez Lemon from The Paciello Group has looked into the accessibility aspects of these early versions of Silverlight, but am not aware of his findings yet. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 7:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight On 10/30/07, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job. However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile. Obviously this wouldn't be as easy as understanding plain HTML markup, but what I was saying was that a device could refer to Scene.xaml.js and parse that to get the relevant content/actions/etc. It's just slightly better than having to look at a .swf to figure out what's going on. New work will have to be done to make sense of Silverlight but the process should be easier than anything Adobe did with Flash... not that I'm bashing Flash here. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] SilverLight
/* And where we can't make a decision on your behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our tools. */ Concerning AJAX and Silverlight - I only pray that their interpretation ARIA is not just another opera solo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 18:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight Quoting Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers, search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see... I recently spotted it in this article http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/silverlight_programming_q_and_a/ Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience platform and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well as WPF and tools like the new Expression Studio: Accessibility and localisation are areas where we think we have some very good solutions and tools support. Silverlight will adhere to all those standards and support screen readers but the most important thing is how easy it is for developers to discover [the accessibility options]. The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions on behalf of the designer and developer ? so if you set the caption on a button we make sure that caption is copied automatically to the appropriate metadata. And where we can't make a decision on your behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our tools. We have an accessibility checker for ASP.NET and Ajax and we want to do the same thing for Silverlight. But where we can put the processing burden on the computer, we want to do that. I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Hi Simon, You're most welcome! With this method, turning off scripting in a browser/user agent lets the nested lists degrade gracefully, and all are exposed. Something else you may find useful - besides the expand/collapse image placed left of an expandable list item , I also place a link state symbol to the right of the link text. The changing and persisting of the symbols is controlled by the anchor link pseudo classes in an external stylesheet. This is to aid hard-of-seeing, color blind and memory disabled users to know if a link is unvisited, visited or being focused on/hovered over. Yes, I've seen flickering occur (on refresh, for example) on pages that have numerous images embedded in them with the img / element, along with the script we're talking about. Please see Chris Knowles message referring to Dean Edwards solution to this. Thanks Chris. I'll email you the package and please do what you like with it, maybe improve it. I'm always willing to learn and progress. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Cockayne Sent: Monday, 29 October, 2007 13:24 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest Hi Frank, Thanks for feedback. * What happens with CSS/Javascript disabled? WCAG 1.0, rightly, wants graceful degradation of CSS/Javascript is disabled...and so do I. So...*without* using an alternate page...(e.g. a text only ghetto...scary)...I'd like my (X)HTML-only page to give all the menu options. So...I tinkered with: A) Showing *all* options in the (X)HTML content...so they *will* appear expanded and therefore usable with just (X)HTML. B) Then I use external (unobtrusive) Javascript window.onload to remove (via DOM Scripting) all the L2 elements*...this works...but I do see an initial flicker..i.e you can discern the original page momentarily and then the L2 items being removed. *Then I set up eventhandlers for the L1 items...so that L2 is added by DOM scripting. Have you come across this flickering problem...is there a better way? Can I remove the DOM elements before they are displayed? And...yes, please - I'd love to get the zip. I will try to upload an example of my approach and send you the URL one evening this week. Cheers, Simon * From: Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:06:11 +0200 Subject: RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG) Hi Simon, I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get the DOM/JavaScript sorted out †he is absolutely brilliant. There is still some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly. This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if you feel this may help. Please let me know? Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] SilverLight
Interesting. Some observations. I downloaded and installed the Silverlight SDK 1.0. I built the example project in VS 2005 running on WinXP Pro SP2 with no problems. However, it would be better to run this on Vista with the Orcas Beta (VS 2008) because of the generic XAML, WPF and .Net 3.0 and 3.5 frameworks inherent within those platforms. The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the Silverlight plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick test, it will only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for windows, etc. From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job. However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile. The Default.htm web page renders a Click Me button. Here is the markup behind the Default.htm page produced by the build: /// html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head titleFrankSilverlight_1/title script type=text/javascript src=Silverlight.js/script script type=text/javascript src=Default.html.js/script script type=text/javascript src=Scene.xaml.js/script /head body div id=SilverlightPlugInHost script type=text/javascript createSilverlight(); /script /div /body /html // Everything is dynamically rendered by the javascript. This reminded me of the need to use javascript (Sarissa library) to dynamically render XML via XSLT in a multi-browser environment on a windows operating system. If anyone wants the Silverlight project package that produces this, please let me know and I'll zip and email it to you. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis D. Falls Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 5:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] SilverLight I know from a developer stand point... the .NET languages (C# VB.NET IronPython etc) and XAML are a lot nicer to use. I hate ActionScript. Lol Great angle to look at though... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think it is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be more? It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out that way. -- -- Christian Montoya Rhristianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)
Hi Simon, I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get the DOM/JavaScript sorted out – he is absolutely brilliant. There is still some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly. This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if you feel this may help. Please let me know? Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Cockayne Sent: Sunday, 28 October, 2007 22:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG) Hi, I am using an ul to store level 1 menu items li, each of which directs to a page representing a topic. I know have a requirement to add in level 2 menu items (zero or more beneath each L1 menu item, when user clicks(selects) an L1 menu, the L2 options should become visible. ul id=navmenu li id=t-Home class=L1a href=index.htmlHome/a/li li id=t-Bio class=L1a href= Bio.htmlBio/a/li li id=t-Research class=L1a href=Research.htmlResearch/a/li li id=t-Teaching class=L1Teaching ul li id=t-TeachingClasses class=L2a href=T1.htmlClasses/a/li li id=t-TeachingCases class=L2a href= T2.htmlCases/a/li /ul /li li id=t-Links class=L1a href=Links.htmlLinks/a/li /ul I've started down the rod of using DOM scripting...to remove the L2 items when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item is clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and Firefox. Is there a CSS way that can: A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG). B) NOT impact SEO. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Hi Steve, If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and values to hyperlinks? Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Rebecca, announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader users. On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Thanks Steven. Combined with Patrick's reply, and based on your experience and deep involvement with accessibility, this is indeed excellent, practical advice. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 12:17 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Frank, I would suggest that if you want the information available to screen reader users or keyboard only users (as title attribute content is not available to keyboard users), then don't place it in the title attribute on links. On 24/10/2007, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and values to hyperlinks? Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Rebecca, announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader users. On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities
Hi James, Tony has given you some great advice. If I may add to that, although it may be difficult depending on the circumstance, try to keep a cool head at all times. Your integrity comes first, backed up by your intellectual property. If it may help you in your studies, I can email you several Fast track tutorial project packages regarding the application of web standards and accessibility in various scenarios: Building Accessible Static Navigation with CSS Calling Accessible Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript Creating Accessible Tabular Data Tables Creating Auto-line Numbered Code Blocks These are free-of-charge, so don't worry about any kind of compensation. I write all code and content within the Visual Studio 2005 IDE Source Code Editors, so there's no extraneous code added to the HTML, CSS and DOM/JavaScript of a proprietary nature by a WYSIWYG authoring environment. I'll be presenting these at the next WritersUA Annual conference in March 2008 at Portland, Oregon, USA. Please let me know, and I'll be happy to send them. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Saturday, 20 October, 2007 12:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities Thanks Toney. Most of the documents we are handed from the tutor are grammatically wrong and contain a huge amount of spelling errors, such as: Place the curser over the table cell click ok when you done Im not sure who is writing them, but again, another issue. I will have a private chat with him, and see what he says. Im all for pushing Web Standards forward, and when i see a college in Birmingham (thats classed as on of the best) teaching outdated methods it makes me angry for both the industry and for the thousands of students. It may not be his fault, your right. James On 10/20/07, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20 Oct 2007, at 10:18, James Jeffery wrote: Should i use my essay and examples and take it to the head of the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its definatly a problem. Who set the syllabus? Assuming it's the college administration, then they are the people to discuss your concerns with. don't assume the tutor is at fault. have a private chat with him, if he truly isn't aware of web standards, then you can tell him that you will be speaking to the college administration about the syllabus being taught and its shortcomings. if he is aware, but is bound by the syllabus, then you may find an ally in your quest. either way, have the private chat, challenging him in front of class, is bound to create a defensive stance from him. if the syllabus is wrong (as it appears to be) work your way through the college administration, explaining that the methods being taught are wrong and using this as support for your case: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/government_it/web_guidelines/ consultations.aspx In order to meet European objectives for inclusive e-government and so that the UK public sector meets its obligations with regards to disability legislation, we have proposed that all government websites must meet Level Double-A of the W3C guidelines by December 2008. Government websites are strongly recommended to develop an accessibility policy to aid the planning and procurement of inclusive websites. This includes building a business case, analysing user needs, developing an accessibility test plan and procuring accessible content authoring tools. The guidance covers some of the design solutions to common problems faced by users but is mainly aimed at strategic managers and project managers to assist with planning and procurement. try not to be adversarial, you'll get a better response with a can you explain why we are learning outdated methods approach. hth and good luck... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf
Responding to Paul, I'm doing the same, with the addition of a note to the user that a new window will open upon activation of the icon/hyperlink. Some may think this is overkill, but I'd rather have the user aware of what's going to occur. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Minty Sent: Tuesday, 16 October, 2007 8:53 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2007 4:16 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf i know that this has come up before, but would someone point me to best practices to introduce aprompt to open or download a pdf or any file for that matter? dwain Dwain, Funnily enough I'm working on a design pattern for this, as it doesn't seem to be documented very well in the usual design pattern collections. I'd recommend displaying with a PDF icon, the text 'PDF' and a file size (in Kb or Mb). I suggest setting the target to a new window, then the user can righ click to save. If you want to go further, I'd suggest having two links labelled 'open' and 'save'. You could put in a pop-up with the option; but I think that this would break the expected behaviour more. You could also detect the connection speed and suggest a download time; but this may not give you much ROI. It's always good to have an HTML version of the content; but you've probably already thought of that. I'd be keen to know other people's thoughts; especially if you know of any design patterns for this. Cheers Paul Paul Minty Director mintleaf studio We design create stylish websites Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne T. 03 9662 9344 F. 03 9662 9255 M. 0418 307 475 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mintleafstudio.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Load Javascript early or on-demand?
Hi Kit, Don't know if this will help, but Simon Willison created an addLoadEvent(func) to get multiple scripts loading correctly on a page. Please see his blog: http://simonwillison.net/2004/May/26/addLoadEvent/ Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kit Grose Sent: Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 8:10 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Load Javascript early or on-demand? G'day all, I've had some internal debate about this topic, so I thought I'd put it to the list: Imagine a large (300 dynamic pages+) site with a real client focus on speed. An average user is expected to visit around 5% of the site per visit (~15 pages), and the user is expected to visit with an unprimed cache around 75% of the time. One very popular page of the site expects to get hits from more than half of all visitors, and uses all kinds of (unobtrusive) Javascript goodies, requiring Script.aculo.us (and therefore Prototype). The page is the only page on the entire site that uses either library. The server is quite slow, so HTTP requests are at a premium. So the question I ask is this: do you 1. load the libraries as part of the global header on every page so that visitors to the swishy page aren't waiting an exorbitant time to view all the Javascript goodies while waiting for two entire JS libraries (and the actual behaviour for the page) to download, but extending the initial load time of the site, or 2. load the libraries on the page in question only, slowing the intra- site navigation, but not penalising users who never intend to visit that particular page of the site. In essence, is it more important to optimise the initial load time, or load-time per subsequent page? Cheers, Kit Grose Frontend Developer iQmultimedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Story Boards
Hi Marvin, In April of this year I came across an add-in template for Microsoft Visio, enabling a user to produce wire-frames and more within the Visio work environment. Here is the address to the web page and small downloadable package: http://www.guuui.com/issues/02_07.php Maybe this will help get the job done? Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of marvin hunkin Sent: Wednesday, 10 October, 2007 5:47 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Story Boards Hi. doing a project for my website development course. now, part of the requirements says that i need to create a story board to represent what content is to be displayed on each page. Now sighted students, would draw navigation and story board diagrams. now, had to do this in word tables and tried html. but my lecturer is still not happy with what i have come up with. now, just wondering, is there any software, that might be able to represent the story boards for the four websites that i am developing for this semester. any tips, tricks, or any other similar experiences. let me know, if anyone been in the same position. unfortunately the guy who did start to develop an accessible text to speech drawing software, got his phd, and did not complete the project and still in limbo. he got to the third user tests, and then nicked off. he did this at Burkely University in Callifornia and the product was to be called Intercommunication Draw 2. okay, can you help out or give suggestions or how to resolve these problems? cheers Marvin. Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting for? http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2E au%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3De n%5FAU%26a%3D30288_t=764581033_r=email_taglines_Join_free_OCT07_m=EXT *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] 5,000th member
Indeed! Without any doubt, I own a ton to all of you, especially the moderators. Kind regards, with due respect and admiration, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Designer Sent: Tuesday, 25 September, 2007 12:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] 5,000th member Mike Brown wrote: Russ I just want to say, on behalf of all 5,000 members I'm sure, thanks to you and Peter for the list. It's been your vision and dedication that's kept it going and nourished, and what you've both done has been influential in ways I'm sure you don't realise. Well done! :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Hear Hear! I have learn't more from the mails in this group than anywhere else - and it's not only about particular markup - it's about attitudes and approaches. Invaluable! Thank you! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?
Hi John, Thought I'd send this off-list to you: Commercial Sector: I build web-based tech documentation for the development division of an international logistics/supply chain company - Supergroup Trading Ltd in South Africa (can't wait to get outta here). Non-profit Sector: I produce gratis Fast Track tutorials geared toward the tech writing/help authoring/web design communities. Hope that helps? Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Horner Sent: Wednesday, 12 September, 2007 7:17 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private? I've noticed that a lot of articles about web design seem to assume that the web developer/designer is working in the commercial sector, and often it's assumed that we're freelance too. As an example, we'll often see arguments on here based on the target audience meaning e.g. that you're designing a website designed to sell a product -- your product is nappies, therefore your audience is parents with babies. Public websites often have a target audience of everyone. Lots of web content gets made, as Richard Stallman said about software, just because it needs to be made: shrink-wrapped, boxed commercial software is the tip of the iceberg compared to all the apps and drivers and utilities and tools in the world which are created without any thought of profit, simply because they're needed. So I wonder, how many people on this list are in the commercial sector and how many are in the non-profit / public / government / education sector? = = The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments = = *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Usability Accessibility Over Design?
Hi,
IMHO I would like to add one important factor to this. Money.
From my experience, regardless of how pretty, wow, etc., a client wants
their site to be, what they're really saying to you is that they need it to
produce a load of money for them. Keep that foremost in mind when design
decisions are being made. An accessible, standards-based, semantic, and fully
usable website is worth its weight in gold. Ask the client how many users he
wants coming in the virtual front door and making a purchase. They'll
probably say everyone. However, they don't think of the multitudes of
physically challenged/disabled users also looking for their products. Guide
them in this direction. Explain to them how much more money they can make by
establishing an all-user friendly storefront. Boring? Last time I checked,
money wasn't boring.
If that doesn't work, then politely wish them a good day and congratulations
on eventually becoming their own best customer.
Kind regards,
Frank
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: Wednesday, 15 August, 2007 12:27 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Usability Accessibility Over Design?
Ok i think some people have missed the point a bit, but its probably my
fault.
When i said design, i was referring to the hi-end graphical content. The
sites that are
there to amaze people and go 'how did they do that' which is they way alot of
people
seem to be heading due to convention.
A client generally knows nothing about anything, he tells you what he wants
and
expects the result. This is what im talking about. The clients see sites with
some
eye candy, and want something 'better' than that. If you give them a site
that looks
like, say the microformats site (which is a perfect example of the way
websites these
days should be) then there usual reply is ('Its boring, there isnt much to
it').
I understand it is possible to create some amazing sites with usability and
accessibility
at the front of the line, but the only people that know this are people like
you and me,
again a client knows nothing and 90% of them don't care.They just want what
they
asked for. If you question why his navigation fonts are very small, his reply
is something
like (becuase i need to fit them all on the one line so it dont look like
the navigation
is taking focus) and you cant really argue the point, because they dont tend
to listen.
I dont know what clients others have worked with, ive worked with some right
nasty
ones, they tell the designer onthe other end of the office how they want it,
if you attempt
to pick at it, they tell you there going to go elsewere, no i cant argue, ill
get the sack.
Tis why i said, if there was a law the client would have no choice.
On 8/15/07, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If it has poor usability its actually bad design, because design isn't just
visual style.
If visual style wins out over usability then its ALWAYS BAD DESIGN.
There is no way around it... Unless this is some highly specialized site like
a quirky flash game or something else that we are not concerned with here.
If you can't work usability into the visual style that you have in mind then
you need to step back and re-think the way you work.
Accessibility shares many aspects with usability because not all
accessibility concerns regard markup and features for highly impaired users.
However generally for most accessibility guidelines following them will
improve usability for your average user too.
James Jeffery wrote:
Good Evening.
Does Or Should Design Out-Weight Usability and/or Accessibility?
Ive been faced with a number of situations during development on a number of
projects
that has forced me make a choice you have all probably had to make
Usability/Accessibility
over design.
I know Usability and Accessibility are very different subjects, but they are
both just as
important. The users experience should be a good one, its sort of like a shop
keeper or
store manager, he has to make sure both non-disabled and disabled shoppers
are happy
when shopping, otherwise they wont come back. The shop keeper also would have
to
try to make a disabled persons shopping trip a good one, because after all,
disabled
shoppers deserve the same access as non-disabled shoppers.
Bringing it back to web development, personally i think that a disabled user
deserves
to browse the internet with the same level of support and access as non
disabled
users.
And back to the question, should design come before Usability/Accessibility?
Sometimes you can do both, such as Image Replacement, or you can offer
visually
impaired users a version of your site with high contrasting colors. But there
are times
when designers and developers do things either without thinking about
disabled users
or thinking 'Stuff them, i want my hi-end graphical interface on my site' or
'Stuff them, i have no time to make it accessible' or even 'Stuff them,
RE: [WSG] Introducing myself
Title: Bericht Baie Welkom Koen! First, many thanks for reviewing my Fast track tutorial and providing constructive feedback. I'm glad you decided to join the WSG and mailing list, and provide us with your Hollands insight when needed. There are many helpful and learned individuals here, so please keep an on the postings. Awarm welcome once again, Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Koen WillemsSent: Sun 8/12/2007 6:44 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Introducing myself Hi all,This is a message to introduce myselfI'm male, 47 and live in the northern part of The Netherlands. My wife and I have two sons, the older one being a succesfull game-programmerAfter working several years in the management of a couple of municipalities, I now work as a senior-lawyer for a municipality.What has that to do with webstandards? Well in fact ...nothing. But I can tell you my greatest passion during the last 2.5 decades was programming (just anything) on a computer. I remember buying my first computer back in 1983. It was a ZX Spectrum. In those days I first tried to program some machine code, but without any significant success. I just shouted it from the roof when after after entering '1 + 1' the screen showed '2' (or something near 2).The last couple of years I became more and more interested in accessibility of (government)information on the web. I consider that a condition for any modern democracy to function.In 2004 with some friends I founded an association who maintains a Dutch forum for starting php-programmers, called PHPFreakz. You can find the forum at http://www.phpfreakz.nl After beeing chairman of that association for a couple of years I withdraw. I'm now just a 'member of honour'.At present I'm member of the advisory committee for the Dutch 'Webguidelines for Governmentsites'(http://webrichtlijnen.overheid.nl/english/ ). Some English spoken posts about these guidelines can be found here:* http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/01/new_dutch_acces.html* http://www.webstandards.org/2007/01/15/the-dutch-embrace-web-standards/ * http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200702/the_dutch_accessibility_law_is_awesome/ Background information on these guidelines was given in a presentationRaph de Rooij recently gave at http://gilbanedc.com/. You can find his presentation here: http://www.raph.nl/presentation.pdfFurthermore I'm member of the Normative Committee of a Dutch foundation called 'Drempelvrij' (In English: 'Barrierfree'). This foundation is responsable for the certifying of websites thats meets WCAG 1.0 .So, I'm not a professional webdesigner, since I don't make websites for a living. There's one website i made recently: http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl On the site one can find all the legislation of the municipalty I work for. The site became a prototype of the ' Guidelines for governmentsites'. Suggestions to improve this site a very welcomeCheers,Koen Willems ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link
Hi Tee, Thanks! Point noted and understood. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tee G. Peng Sent: Friday, 10 August, 2007 10:34 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link On Aug 10, 2007, at 12:53 AM, Dean Edridge wrote: Frank Palinkas wrote: Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax:+27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 Wow! this is the longer signature I ever seen and it's quite unpleasant to need to scorll down in order to read the message. Sorry, Dean and Frank, I am not making any compliant. I am here to learn the best web practise from many of you guys and I see that some of the members condemn top posting; I think bottom posting (is this how it's called?) is equally bad when one needs to scroll all the way down to read a few line of message. I think this is one of the accessible issue perhaps not many people pay attention to. One of my client is semi-paralyze and doesn't make use of assistive software because, according to her, it's too expensive and too much learning curve. One time she made a comment to me that I should write my message in the top so that she doesn't need to scroll all the way down ( I always trim my post when I response). I was in her office recently and witnessed how she uses computer, it was unimaginable inconvenient and uncomfortable for me to watch. She has mobile problem on her hands too. I watched her literally spending some 3 or 4 minutes to scroll all the way down in order to read an email. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link
Hi Lars, Thanks for the hard work and time taken to do this. It's appreciated. May I make one suggestion please? The character reference (#10003;) you're using for the checkmark symbol does not render in IE6 or below. However, it does render perfectly in the latest versions of Opera, Firefox, Netscape and Safari for Windows. IE 6 and below renders it as a plain square box. If you don't mind this occurring in IE 6 and below, then please ignore my comment. If it is of importance, then maybe using a plus (+) sign (#043;) or another cross-browser recognized character reference will do. Thanks again, Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: Thursday, 09 August, 2007 22:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link Andrew Freedman skrev: Any chance that you could perhaps upload the page or post the correct link? Ooops! http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements.xhtml Sorry all! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] To target or not
I'm with you also. However, as a tech writer I don't have the luxury of calling the shots on which method is employed by a dev project team. I decided to be ready for both external and internal calls from the app. Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 10:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] To target or not From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] To target or not Id say dont use pop-ups, nobody likes them w! :P I agree - in this day and age it makes far more sense to show and hide a div (or whatever) on your page than to throw a whole new page unless you have reams of info to display. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] To target or not
Hi Matthew, Being the tech writer for a software dev division, when calling context-sensitive help from a web form is needed I use unobtrusive DOM/Javascript to either let a user open a popup within the app window (traditional method) or call the help from within (embedded) each form field. I have a new Fast Track tutorial in final draft demonstrating how to accomplish both methods titled Calling Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript. These methods are not limited to web forms and can be applied in other ways if needed. If it would help you, please contact me off-list and I can email you (or anyone else interested) a small zipped package of the tutorial project folder containing the markup, content, .css, images and DOM/JavaScript. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Ohlman Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 4:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] To target or not Hello List, I was curious what others opinions were on this issue... Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do you think is better? Having the window opening up with JavaScript or just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups. Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if it is an external site, etc. What does everyone think? Matthew -- Matthew Ohlman www.ohlman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Page Structure
Hi Andrew, I would say the most important _thing_ in a newspaper is the title of lead story for that part of the day. The analogy to a web document would be the topic name of the page and be marked up as the h1. The name of the newspaper itself doesn't offer any timely information or _news_. Thus, I would limit that name to a masthead, along with a tagline if it's part of the identity/logo of the publishing house. Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Monday, 02 July, 2007 15:17 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: Andrew Maben Subject: Re: [WSG] Page Structure On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote: Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every page of a web site. OR - why does most important *thing* on the page have to correspond to h1? Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to h1? I think not: surely h1 belongs to the most important news item on the page? Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben. http://www.andrewmaben.com/ net [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Skip to Content?
Hi All, Just a quick question and please pardon my ignorance.. If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the content, and then floated left (or right) to bring it visually next to the content in a two column manner, is it good practice to include a Skip to Content link as part of the navigation markup for users with assistive technologies? More simply put, given that the global nav is structurally situated below the content, will this preclude the use of a skip to content link? Looking forward to your comments, Kind regards, Frank *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?
Thanks David, much appreciate your feedback. That's exactly what I thought, but I'm not inclined to assume anything. As you mention, I'm experimenting with moving the skip to content link off screen with a margin-left of -em, leaving its markup intact just above the floated global nav div. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Little Sent: Thursday, 28 June, 2007 11:06 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content? Hi, I'd still include the link (as the first link on the page) as I imagine you're still going to have other browser content before you get to your page's main content (headers, logos etc.) -- unless you want users of screenreaders to have to sit through that for every page. I'd say anything that adds to the usability of a site for any group is worth including. Also, it's very easy to hide these links from other standard browsers if you so wish, so it's not really much of an overhead to include them. Hope this helps, David On 28/06/07, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, Just a quick question and please pardon my ignorance.. If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the content, and then floated left (or right) to bring it visually next to the content in a two column manner, is it good practice to include a Skip to Content link as part of the navigation markup for users with assistive technologies? More simply put, given that the global nav is structurally situated below the content, will this preclude the use of a skip to content link? Looking forward to your comments, Kind regards, Frank *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- David Little -m: 077 6596 5655 -e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -w: www.littled.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?
Hi All, From the feedback and very reasonable/realistic points made, I'm going to make sure that _all_ users will be able to deal with the navigation in a manner that will suit them (visible and off screen). I don't consider this a redundancy, but as professionally catering to whoever may open the page regardless of their physical condition. Thank you all for your learned comments and help. It's much appreciated. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Little Sent: Thursday, 28 June, 2007 12:33 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content? On 28 Jun 2007, at 6:50 PM, Frank Palinkas wrote: If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the content... Hang on - if your nav is *below* the content, wouldn't the link be better as 'skip to navigation'? I think in this case it would be a good idea to have both links, e.g. something like: div class=skip a href=#contentSkip to content/a | a href=#navigationSkip to navigation/a /div Hiding the links as suggested via positioning. David -- David Little -e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -w: www.littled.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Page Structure
FWIW, my take would be: // div id=masthead p id=headerimg id=logo alt=Glory Days src=images/GloryDays.gif / tickets, accommodation travel packages for major events throughout the uk, europe and worldwide /p h1 id=topicRugby World Cup 2007 Packages/h1 /div // Float the logo id to the right. This will position the h1 topic beneath the header tagline. Everything is captured within the masthead div. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Crockford Sent: Wednesday, 27 June, 2007 13:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Page Structure Web Man Walking wrote: h1 id=companyGlory Days/h1 h2 id=taglinetickets, accommodation travel packages for major events throughout the uk, europe and worldwide/h2 div id=content h1Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages/h1 /div Would I penalised for something like this? My understanding would be that the first h1 is the ones the search spiders use to determine what the page is about. Hence I don't use headings for branding. why do you want to put strapline and company names in hx's? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity
I'd like to add Gez Lemon to the list please. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barney Carroll Sent: Tuesday, 19 June, 2007 12:48 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity Cameron Singe wrote: I read a book by Christian Heilmann on beginning javascript, I would rate him as a guru Definitely. FYI Lars, http://domscripting.com/ is Christian's hub site. Jeremy Keith should also be above most of these people as popular and populist (just under PPK, possibly) - http://adactio.com/articles/. And seeing as we might as well get back on topic, PPK and Christian Heilmann are brilliant standards advocates and accessibility gurus as well. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata
Hi Matthew, Thanks for your comments. /* So what would happen on a page with 15 links above the form? Presumably a keyboard user would tab through the first 10, then just down to the form, through that, and then back to the last 5, then move onto any links after the form. Not exactly expected behaviour. */ I always add a Skip Navigation button directly after the h1 topic enabling a user to bypass both global and internal page links. This moves the focus to the first subtopic. I use 11 as a starting guide, not as a rule. /* I think it's been shown that just about all keys interfere with someone's shortcuts, whether it's a browser, screenreader, foreign characters, or whatever. */ Interesting. Please tell me where this info is shown? I'd like to know more. Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Pennell Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 8:26 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata On 08/06/07, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: /* Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job for a browser and adaptive technology. */ When and where needed (in web forms for instance), I create a tabindex order starting with the number 11 and proceed from there. This usually bypasses the generic built-in browser tab order. So what would happen on a page with 15 links above the form? Presumably a keyboard user would tab through the first 10, then just down to the form, through that, and then back to the last 5, then move onto any links after the form. Not exactly expected behaviour. /* Guideline 9.5: Don't provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job for a browser or adaptive technology. */ I provide keyboard shortcuts for global navigation situated on each web page. I cross-browser test to make sure each character I'm using for the Alt + key shortcut doesn't interfere with generic browser shortcuts. I think it's been shown that just about all keys interfere with someone's shortcuts, whether it's a browser, screenreader, foreign characters, or whatever. Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata
Thanks Jason, That's what I'm looking for. Also, I think Gez Lemon's comment about letting a user set their own access keys makes a lot of sense to me. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Turnbull Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 9:53 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata Matthew Pennell wrote: I think it's been shown that just about all keys interfere with someone's shortcuts, whether it's a browser, screenreader, foreign characters, or whatever. Frank Palinkas wrote: Interesting. Please tell me where this info is shown? I'd like to know more. Some Info: http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=32 http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=43 http://juicystudio.com/article/firefox2-accesskeys.php Regards Jason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Hi Michael, Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with .pdf files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web doc. This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password. If they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work. Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they exist, I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this scenario. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet ... (I have yet to see one which can) btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap html) from a pdf ? (apart from Acrobat Pro itself - I can't justify spending that sort of money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise just be deleted) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata
Hi Kane, If it’s of help: /* Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job for a browser and adaptive technology. */ When and where needed (in web forms for instance), I create a tabindex order starting with the number 11 and proceed from there. This usually bypasses the generic built-in browser tab order. /* Guideline 9.5: Don’t provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job for a browser or adaptive technology. */ I provide keyboard shortcuts for global navigation situated on each web page. I cross-browser test to make sure each character I’m using for the Alt + key shortcut doesn’t interfere with generic browser shortcuts. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax:+27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kane Tapping Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 7:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata Hi, I have been reading with interest the WCAG Samurai Errata ( http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html ) and am suprised to have not found it discussed on WSG as of yet. It raises many discussion points two of which mirror my own personal opinion... Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job for a browser and adaptive technology. Guideline 9.5: Don’t provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job for a browser or adaptive technology. I have always found these priority three guidelines to be counter productive because they often conflict with the built-in navigation controls from browsers and screen readers making the website harder to use by those you are trying to help by following the guidelines. What is your opinion on the errata ? Kind Regards, Kane Tapping Web Standards Developer Web and Content Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
but that doesn't mean that the resulting document actually makes any sense whatsoever... Thank you Patrick. Especially to those using assistive devices. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: Tuesday, 05 June, 2007 10:06 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form? Nick Gleitzman Forgot this point: valid doesn't mean correct, or sensible. It's really easy to write code that validates, but which is semantic rubbish. The Validator is a great tool for checking the correctness of markup, but it can't interpret context - it's just a dumb piece of software. Validation is akin to a word processor's spellchecker: it can tell you if you spelt everything correctly, but that doesn't mean that the resulting document actually makes any sense whatsoever... P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor External Relations Division University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
Thanks Schalk! Please keep us informed? Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schalk Neethling Sent: Wednesday, 30 May, 2007 11:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ? Hey there All, This seems to be a huge problem on the web today. I am in the process of building a CMS that will be from the ground up built to standards compliant and accessible. Also, the big issue is to ensure that whatever the CMS outputs abides by the same rules. The project is being developed as an open source project so anyone that wishes to know more and want to join in and help in the building of the CMS is more then welcome. It is being hosted on code.google.com/p/alliedbridge Kind Regards Schalk Nick Roper wrote: Hi Mark, Have you looked at Karova? www.karova.com It is XML/XSLT based, so that may be an issue if you want a PHP based solution, but you can get in and edit the XSLTs and of course CSS, so it is pretty flexible and compliant. Not sure about the Protx support. One thing to be aware of is that it is a hosted solution, and not available to install on your own server as far as I know. It has been used for some large clients such as World Wildlife Fund (not our client unfortunately), and we used it to build a store at the following URL if you want a look: http://retailstore.haptic.co.uk I think they were working on a PHP-based version, and are working on more friendly URLs - so might be worth a look. Cheers, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Hi John and Mike, Just a question please? For simple forms, I really like the technique of separating Required from Optional fields. Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets (Required/Optional) would it be semantically/accessibly correct to instead use a header element (for example h4) to separate/identify the two areas? This would keep the form contained within one fieldset, generic to the form's identity? For example: /// form action= method=post id=enquiryform fieldset legendEnquiry Form a rel=help class=cshelp href=ContextSensitiveHelpExample.htm img class=helpicon alt=help icon title=Open context-sensitive help width=16 height=16 src=images/help_small.gif //a/legend h4 Required Fields:/h4 div label for=subject Subject: Select a subject./label select name=subject id=subject tabindex=1 option value=Select/option option value=Option 1Option 1/option option value=Option 2Option 2/option option value=Option 3Option 3/option /select label for=name Name: Enter your full name./label input type=text name=name id=name tabindex=2 / label for=email Email: Enter your email address./label input type=text name=email id=email tabindex=3 / label for=message Message: Enter your message./label textarea name=message id=message rows=6 cols=30 tabindex=4/textarea /div h4 Optional Fields:/h4 div label for=updates Updates: Check this box to receive updates. /label input type=checkbox name=updates id=updates value=n tabindex=5 / /div label input class=submit type=submit value=Submit this Enquiry tabindex=6 //label /fieldset /form Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 4:25 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields John Faulds wrote: But sometimes at least one phone number might be required but others are optional (e.g. mobile, home, fax etc) - doesn't seem as logical to split your phone number fields up into different groupings. Great point, John. That's a conundrum for sure. And it will happen, the frequency thereof is probably in proportion to a form's complexity. In the example you illustrate it might be okay to stick to the required/optional thing, like so. Enter contact info in the form below. fieldset legend: required label/input: name label/input: email label/input: phone fieldset legend: optional label/input: fax label/inout: web But I can definitely see instances where that just woudn't do and the logical groupings wouldn't allow such an easy solution. That's when we'd have to revisit one of the other methods we've been comtemplating I suppose, treating each occurence independantly unless a one-size-fits-all solution is found. A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label. fieldset legend: foo stuff label/input: required foo one label/input: optional foo two label/input: required foo red label/input: optional foo blue :-) Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with a rel attribute in the a/a element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, the page will open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new window. Also, an assistive device may read the a/a element's title attribute (if employed) to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy Keith's book, DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and the Document Object Model, and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book The JavaScript Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks. You can check Amazon for reviews, etc. on them. Hope this helps, Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards intact, without opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to open pages in new window. suggestions ? regards -P Original Message: - From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi, You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... a link target=_blank href=pdf file name(eg: OReilly.Head.First.Object.Oriented.Analysis.and.Design.Nov.2006.pdf)click here/a Thanks On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi group, This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may know... I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. Thanks for you rhelp Jermayn The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** mail2web LIVE - Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe:
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Hi Mike, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Removing the onclick event handler from the markup is all that is being done, thereby the unobtrusive value of the exercise. The DOM/JavaScript does not insert any links. The link remains intact within the markup as it should be. It merely uses the rel attribute of the a/a element as a trigger to launch the new window, as would the onclick event handler attribute if it was placed within the a/a element. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 15:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Unfortunately, using JavaScript to insert such links is no more than a fudge - you cannot rely on JavaScript being turned off in a screen-reader users browser, and this cannot be regarded as 'unobtrusive', or even 'progressive enhancement' as it is a fundamental change in behaviour. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:35 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with a rel attribute in the a/a element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, the page will open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new window. Also, an assistive device may read the a/a element's title attribute (if employed) to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy Keith's book, DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and the Document Object Model, and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book The JavaScript Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks. You can check Amazon for reviews, etc. on them. Hope this helps, Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards intact, without opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to open pages in new window. suggestions ? regards -P Original Message: - From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi, You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... a link target=_blank href=pdf file name(eg: OReilly.Head.First.Object.Oriented.Analysis.and.Design.Nov.200 6.pdf)click here/a Thanks On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi group, This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may know... I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. Thanks for you rhelp Jermayn ** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264
RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
FWIW, my interpretation of what constitutes tabular data relies on the meaning of the data being directly associated to its grid coordinates, i.e. the intersection of a column and row. The column coordinate + the row coordinate gives specific meaning to the data located at the intersection of these items. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2007 9:13 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Paul Novitski wrote: At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote The example you present here is clearly two-column tabular data (whether marked up as a table or not). We live in that golden universe where markup and presentation are very (never completely) separate. The question of whether your table of officers is tabular data (duh) is independent of how it's presented. Is anyone actually suggesting that the presence or absence of the dots influences the determination of the semantic structure of the information? Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Actually, what if there was only one row for our example? Would you consider marking up the following with a table? President..John Smith What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
If I may add one other point that hasn't been touched on yet (that I'm aware of)... IMHO, if the elimination of either the table Column coordinate or Row coordinate takes place, it will break the semantic nature of the table element. If you continue to use the table element with one coordinate and its corresponding data entries, the table element is then only being used for presentational purposes, thus the need for an appropriate semantic method, i.e. a definition list or other. I also use table attributes, especially to enhance assistive device identification and transfer of cognitive data from the table structure to the user. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) super group trading ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax:+27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2007 20:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 8 Mar 2007, at 16:37:15, Thierry Koblentz wrote: But this definition applies to more than just table elements, isn't? In the above, we could replace the words first column with dt and second column with dd and it would make as much sense... On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term President, the definition of that term would be something like The individual in charge of the organisation. John Smith simply cannot be seen as a *definition* of the term President, but is rather the personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term President. If it was called a denotation list, then fair enough; but it's a definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever vague examples may be given in the standard). I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree as definition is often replaced by description which leaves more room for interpretation. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 The two examples given would relate to the definition concept you point out, but what about: quote Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. /quote In this case, the words in the DDs are *not* the definition of the speakers, it's even far from that... Note also that all the elements and attributes of the HTML table model that promote accessibility (summary, caption, axis, headers, scope, abbr) are absent when a list of some kind is used. Still, I've never come across anybody other than myself who uses them anyway :-( I don't think simple tables call for all the attributes in the box though. But anyway, talking about accessibility, marking up the given example with accessible table markup, would - imho - make screenreader users listen to information (mostly related to the table itself, not its content) they wouldn't even need to understand the data if it was marked up as a simple DL for example. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
