RE: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
Chris Townson wrote: what a list looks like or how you want a list to look are irrelevant in the context of this debate. also irrelevant is whether the pipe or vertical bar has accrued implied or associated meaning through (ab)use. semantic mark-up is about utilising the most appropriate tag available for a particular thing within the provided specification Geoff Pack wrote: I don't think it is irrelevant. Meaning = semantics. If my inline pipe-separated list already has the semantics I intend, then making it an html list adds nothing but cruft. I don't see the point of marking it up as a list, only to have to add CSS to change it back to what I intended in the first place. Yes, I'm fully aware that, in a restricted sense, meaning = semantics (strictly speaking, the difference is: semantics = what some _thing_ signifies, indicates, or says; meaning = what I think or suppose some thing signifies, or the related thought induced by that thing ... although the precise difference is beyond the scope of this list) The point here is that (X)HTML provides a formal definition for a set of tags which are intended to have _semantic_ value. The explicit semantic association this provides is intended to make stuff within those tags amenable to meaningful processing _by_computers_. As computers themselves are not capable of having meaning (i.e. as something they possess and comprehend), it is essentially the formal definition that makes this processing possible (as a pre-agreed set of human meanings which are programatically implemented). The implementation of additional, arbitrary _human_ meaning (or devices thereof), whilst an essential part of the design process, is not something which lies at the core of semantic markup (the very notion of markup being intended _for_ a computer). Therefore: stage 1 in achieving semantic markup is to use suitable, provided tags where these are available (and I've encountered few situations where suitable tags are not available, even if they are generic or require class/id attributes to further describe them) so that code can be meaningfully processed. You asked: And what does a list really look like? In this context, that is beside the point (the idea being that, ultimately, the end user is then in control of appearance if they wish to be). Nonetheless, I can appreciate that there are pragmatic reasons for not utilising a particular tag in particular situations (your example of a comma-separated list within a sentence being one). end of story. Not really. That's what we're here for. Apologies - that was me being flippant - a bad habit. What I meant to suggest is that my point here is one of logic, more than opinion (i.e. if we accept the idea of semantic markup with a formal definition - then ... ) In everyday practice, matters are far more blurred ... but, personally speaking, I would still never markup a list with pipe separators ;D Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)
And what does a list really look like? Which of the following is more correct: My favourite fruits are watermelon, apples and bananas. My favourite fruits are: * watermelon * apples * bananas Answer: neither. They are both lists and both mean the same. what a list looks like or how you want a list to look are irrelevant in the context of this debate. also irrelevant is whether the pipe or vertical bar has accrued implied or associated meaning through (ab)use. semantic mark-up is about utilising the most appropriate tag available for a particular thing within the provided specification (X)HTML clearly provides the ulli ... /liul and friends for marking up a whole range of different list varieties. These should be used for any list, regardless of the desired visual style / whether CSS is on or off / whether the user is using a screenreader or not etc etc. end of story. Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity
I need some information on UDM (http://www.udm4.com/) navigation as a web standard navigation. The reason I am looking into this is the need to resolve issues with drop-down menus go behind select field in IE. As some of us knows that there are inherent flaws/problems with IE Window controls like select fields like drop-down list. The standard Suckerfish drop-down menu (which I normally use) or any other CSS-based menus does not work in this situation. Any information or assistance is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. what information are you looking for exactly? I have used this navigation system and I can tell you: 1. it works - it makes accomodation for IE forms controls which, although not hugely pretty, does at least side-step the problem of menus disappearing behind select etc 2. it's standards-compliant and about as accessible as a drop-down menu will ever be although, avoiding drop-down menus altogether is a better solution, IMHO ;D Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Styling legends and fieldsets
On 10/19/05, Mike Brown wrote: This really is a rhetorical question born of frustration... It would certainly help in producing accessible forms if we didn't have to say, we can use legend and be properly accessible, or we can use heading and be able to place it where we want, but we can't use legend and place/style how we want. Choose one. On 10/19/05, Joshua Street wrote: Yes. Yes, yes ... please, god! Logically speaking (correct me if I'm wrong here): a legend should simply be handled as a block-level element that is required as the first-child of a fieldset element. In terms of document flow, this would mean you would get something like this by default: [fieldset] -- |[legend]| || ||[legend text node]|| || |[related form inputs ...] | -- Browsers could then effect their own default relative positioning to place it where they wanted, but it should be possible to overwrite this easily via (most likely) CSS or (less likely) JavaScript. Legends appear to work something like this in Firefox (although I haven't looked into the fine details of how they are managed yet). However, it is a source of continual frustration that this is not possible in other browsers, notably Opera and IE. Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Paul Sturgess wrote: How about this approach, no need for the company name to show twice: h1a href=/img src=logo.gif alt=Company name //a/h1 Personally I like the logo to show with styles off and if the user has images off then the alt tag provides the text. I would be interested to know how people markup their company logo that don't use an h1 tag, I like the idea of reserving those for the particular page headings but can't really see what to use for the logo instead. How about nothing?! (i.e. no heading for this) Perhps I should confess at this point: I have a deep antipathy towards logos, but I know how marketing people love them! ;) Ideally, I aim to do three runs through HTML/CSS when coding up a site: 1. Try and mark-up the whole thing without images 2. Go through and insert images that should be hard-coded - you might call these 'illustrations' (I think Patrick might have been making a point earlier that logos might come under the category of 'illustration') 3. Do all the CSS styling: this covers all aspects of the page which are superfluous / not _absolutely_ required (images which fall into this phase are inserted as background-image) In the 'real world' (TM), however, these steps get mixed together due to commercial pressures (e.g. marketing) or technical restrictions (such as browser bugs; the fact that we only have h1-h6) Pragmatically, I like Patrick's h1a href=/img src=logo.gif alt=Company Name //a/h1 The pros: - you get something meaningful with images off - it prints as an image (which pleases marketing types :D) - alt text scales according to user font-size preferences The cons: - I think that something that is text (i.e. the company name) gets marked up as an image At nature.com, we do something like Patrick's solution, but we just ditch the h1, using only an image tag. We use the document title to spell out what site your on and reserve the h1 for 3 headings in the document: 1 at the top of the content (which helps indicate what the page is actually about), 1 at the top of each of the navigation columns. Because the navigation columns are really separate from the content (belonging to the site as a whole, and not the page content), using 3 h1s here seems the right thing to do (it very rarely is, I think) You then get an outline structure that looks like this: [site title] |- [h1] Page heading |- [h2-h6] any subheadings etc... |- [h1] Main Navigation |- [h1] Extra Navigation IMHO, it isn't ideal - I would prefer just a text h1 for the logo - but it does have the advantage of being a linked logo image that prints and has alt text, whilst preserving heading structures for use elsewhere in the page. Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Patrick Lauke wrote: I would argue ... that a logo ... is more than just a visual representation of text, in the same way that a head and shoulders passport photo of a person is not just a visual representation of the person's name Yes - I agree absolutely ... although my full length response to that would definitely risk [sending this discussion] disappearing up it own behind! :D and nobody would hopefully argue that my photo should be marked up as my name and then image replaced with the photo. I think my point here is this: HTML is really a text-based medium. Images have very little meaning, for example, to a screenreader. In practical terms, for HTML as it is today, what would your photo contribute to the content of a page? I recently marked up a page which consisted of information about employees. The design required inserting a photo of each employee next to their description: I used background images for those photos because they were not essential content. What was important was the bit which went: h3John Smith/h3 pJohn works as blah blah blah ... /p (Those h3+p details were also inside a list item for each employee) The point is that sticking in photos as img / here contributed practically nothing to the page. You say that you do not think your photo should not be the text Patrick Lauke replaced by an image: that would imply (quite rightly) that your identity as encapsulated by the photo is not summed up merely by the characters of your name. In that case, what should the alt text for an img / which is your photo be? Would it have to be 1000 words ... ? :D (that's what longdesc is there for, obviously) It's part of the company's identity, and as such is content - to a certain extent anyway. My logic processor returns this as both true and false :D (that's where your extent comes in?) True - philosophically True - for sighted-users in a graphical environment. False - in HTML (taken from a pure code or screenreader perspective), it's just a bit of alt text. as I've admitted though, there _are_ /real reasons/ why you would want an image (such as a logo) hard-coded into the page which you and others have covered in this thread. From my perspective, where possible, I like have code where all required meaning is imparted through text (_and_ have this marked up _as_ text). I think which approach you take depends ultimately upon your goals and emphasis for the site/page in question. C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Some illustration: http://decaffeinated.org/archives/2005/09/27/logo screenreader level twolink Silhouette Take a look at the eight logos below; I'm betting you're familiar with every one of them. Even if, at first glance, you're a little unsure about a couple, hovering over the graphic to see its title text will no doubt foster a silent revelation... ohhh, yeah. I knew that . GraphicWarner MusicGraphicPepsiGraphicSchwarzkopfGraphicMitsubishiGraphicWindowsGraphicApp leGraphicNikeGraphicAdidas So what is it about these symbols, these miniature signifiers of the corporations and products we interact with in the real world, that make them so recognizable? ... /screenreader I think my question is asked by you at the end of the screenreader output ;) Seriously though: you page demonstrates the how logos can be ideogrammatic - they become instantly associated with a whole host of ideas, phrases etc (usually under the heavy influence of marketing ;D) ... This is one of the reasons, I presume, that Patrick (+ others) have been arguing that logos are genuine content. however - I argue that the issue isn't so clear cut if we take into account (and are concerned about) user environments like screenreaders / text-only browsers: the logos then just become text and, perhaps, should be marked-up as such ... [adopts Darth Vader voice] Text is the true nature of HTML, Luke: you know this to be true :D C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
So shall we get rid of IMG element altogether? now, there's an idea ;) get rid of object too whilst we're about it! :D [... starts e-mail to w3c ...] seriously: your page (http://decaffeinated.org/archives/2005/09/27/logo) does provide an example of use of img / which can't really be argued with: the subject of the content is a primarily visual phenomena and you insert images which are examples of this ... an image gallery would be a more generic example. However, _the_ logo which is used for identifying a website: is it more important that it, (a), successfully identifies the site/company name to all users? Or, (b), that that it appears as a graphical element in the design? If you want (a), you could still quite reasonably use Patrick's h1+img suggestion, but you might also want to consider just using text and replacing it. If you want (b), then you have to use an image for practical reasons. Company's name is text, logo is more. Sure it must degrade to the text in non visual environment, but it does not hurt to provide richer experience in not so limited browsers? you're right - I have agreed with this point already. The question is this: isn't that richer experience more a matter of style, rather than content? (In which case it surely belongs in a stylesheet?) C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
I know we live in commercial, capitalist times ;) ... however, I cannot
agree that a company logo is page content (that warrants a presence in the
HTML) in the true sense:
a logo is essentially 'indexical': it depends for its meaning upon some
other entity (the company) and the context within which it is presented
(their website).
This:
[some graphic]
means nothing and has no semantic value
This, on the other hand:
h1a href=/index.htmlMy Company/a/h1
has obvious meaning!
Whilst I'm not a big fan of image replacement, I do use it for header logos
because it solves two problems in one:
a) You get to use a fancy image in the header - which is _only_ a fancy
marketing device - not content proper.
b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are genuine subheadings.
One last thing: using image replacement does not mean that you cannot link
that image to the homepage. Using the h1a ... above, just set link to
display:block and replace on that with text-indent:-1000em.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Terry Bunter
Sent: 10 October 2005 05:15
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Sorry if this has been discussed before and it may be a little of topic of
this thread but I have always wondered why h1 would be used in the header of
the page for a logo.
I have always thought the h1 element should be the main heading for the
content eg.
h1About Us/h1
pcontent.../p
This way the highest level heading is always unique to the section of the
website you are visiting.
Cheers
TB
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 1:43 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
I prefer the following IR:
div id=masthead
h1a href=index.html title=The Company Name Web SiteCompany
Name/a/h1 /div
in the stylesheet:
#masthead h1 {
margin: 0px; padding: 0px;
}
a {
width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden;
margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx; background: transparent
url(images/logo.gif) no-repeat top left; }
That way you don't get clear.gif going in your otherwise semantically nice
mark up :o)
R
- Original Message -
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Doing it this way IS good branding.
It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in
certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will
know what I'm talking about...
Good point.
This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image
source
and size) and makes the logo clickable.
h1a title=Company home page href=/img src=clear.gif alt=
//aCompany Name/h1
[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp
/plug
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
**
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Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents
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RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Chris Townson wrote: b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are genuine subheadings. Patrick H. Lauke wrote and what, h1img src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //h1 is not genuine? Semantically, I would say: No, its not This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned. Let me put it another way: - Would you use an image as a heading elsewhere (say, an image which contained text)? Aside from semantics, this kind of thing is not recommended for accessibility reasons. Ideally, a heading is something which describes and encapsulates that which comes thereafter. Because an logo is indexical, it alone (usually) describes nothing - it requires a context for that. Nonetheless, because your example has appropriate alt text, it might be possible to argue that there is text present. However, in response to that, I would ask: Is an image tag the correct way (semantically) to mark-up that text? I happen to think that it isn't - it should be done with plain text inside the heading / link tag ... however, I can see your point and wouldn't want to be total pedant on the issue :D at http://www.nature.com/ we do just use an image for our header logo however, that is mainly because we would run out of heading levels on scientific articles otherwise! Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned. This would be the point where I'd say the whole discussion on semantics risks disappearing up it own behind...no offense. none taken :D You want to do web design, eh? Well, get onto the semiotics and linguistics course for the next 10 years and then we'll talk about it... well, it was only 9 years in my case ;D Ideally, a heading is something which describes and encapsulates that which comes thereafter. Because an logo is indexical, it alone (usually) describes nothing - it requires a context for that. I'd say it defines that what follows belongs to the entity identified by said logo...but I think we may end up in rather philosophical discussions here and lose touch with reality ;) I think we could agree that the relationship is symbiotic?! ;) However, the point about reality: there is, of course, a serious and practical point to the discussion - we want people to be able to write clean, 'semantic' code. Also, developers who work with Java, PHP etc etc are required to write 'object'-oriented code. However, in my experience, there are very few people who are any good at identifying what something _is_ in order to mark it up semantically or turn it into an object. The reality is that asking what is the correct way to markup a company logo? _is_ a philosophical question!! :D Is an image tag the correct way (semantically) to mark-up that text? A company's identity is more than just its name. The logo, the typeface used, the colours, all play an integral part, imho. Hence an image seems to me the best compromise (until we get sophisticated mechanisms like SVG to work consistently in all browsers). I agree with your point here completely. However, in pragmatic (;)) terms, with current technology, text is just the only solution which conveys meaning to _all_ users (not just those using graphical browsers on a desktop PC) - and the correct way to markup text is not as an image (i.e. as alt text in your example). Where the other methods are available (colour, font, other visual or audio medium), these can be used by overwriting the default handling of a particular element through CSS, Javascript etc (as long as this does not interfere with the availability of the 'generic foundation'; i.e. the text) QED: Use image replacement for logos (over h1 heading) where possible! Still good to have a principled discussion though...makes our lives as standardistas soo much more mysterious to the outside world ;) Exactly :D there are always 'principles' beneath quotitidan concerns: even endless debates on font-sizes and heading structures ;) C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Mugur Padurean wrote: It may be useful for some of you guys to know that on some major Linux distros ( Fedora, Debian, Slackware) in all browsers available through the KDE or Gnome fonts appear to be rendered slightly bigger than on WIN. Up to 5 % bigger By default, X on my SUSE machine sets itself to 120dpi (like large fonts in Windows) You also get a minimum font-size of 10px or 12px (can't remember which) in Konqueror ... always something to remember if you deign to cater to Linux users - which you should! Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] search engine question
You may also be interested in this: http://udm4.com/ 1 html list (no excessively long, non-accessible navigation lists at top of page) + dhtml submenus. Without Javascript, you just get the top list. Appearance controlled by CSS. Well worth a look. Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: 16 May 2005 17:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] search engine question On Mon, 16 May 2005 16:11:26 +0100, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have to use good, accessible menu that uses links in HTML. See son of suckerfish dropdowns. I'm not sure if CSS menus are really accessible. IMHO, they lack a timer, browser support is weak and most of them do not allow keyboard navigation. That's the same problem most JS menus have as well. On top of that, if not well implemented, they can be totally inaccessible to IE users if scripts are disabled. JS-based menu will fail as well, and not only in IE, but in other browsers. Having working, styled top-level items are IMHO best way such menu can degrade. Otherwise you may get something like few pages of unordered lists or spaghetti of links, which breaks page layout and isn't more usable. FWIW, I'd go with a DHTML solution that degrades nicely. But suckerfish dropdowns is DHTML solution that degrades nicely. You can get best of both worlds - extend CSS menu to have features of best JS menu. Add class to menu and make :hover work only on menu with that class. Then using JS remove that class and add mouseover/mouseout/focus handlers that implement closing delay, keyboard navigation, etc. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Standards-compliant reader poll software
Hi - I'm looking for a good (i.e. standards-compliant) piece of software for generating/administering reader polls. I was wondering whether anyone out there has had any particularly good or bad experiences that they would be prepared to share, so I know where to look and where to avoid! Specifically, I'm looking for a solution that doesnt create horrendous javascript-generated html! (Poll monkey, anyone?) ;) Thanks, Chris -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dr Christopher Townson Web Design Department Nature Publishing Group The Macmillan Building 4 Crinan Street London N1 9XW Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] new mycareer.com.au design
On a quick inspection of the code, it looks great! Congratulations. Far and away the best jobs site I've seen, from astandards point of view. One point: I noticed that a number of the form element labels lacked the for="" attribute to associate them with the appropriate input. I would love to know whether the actual careers engine was an in-house thing or third-party. I've seen some perfectlygood sites completely ruined by horrendous thrid-party code by people such as CareerCast (http://careercast.com/) Chris From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter OtterySent: 27 April 2005 05:36To: Web Standards GroupSubject: [WSG] new mycareer.com.au design very proud to say the new mycareer site launched today:http://mycareer.com.au/its the next major site from the Fairfax Digital network to take on css layout as part of a redesign. the site gets hundreds of thousands of visitors a month and is one of australias largest job ad websites.check it out, be good to hear any feedback/ideas for further improvement. as always with a large scale commercial project there are comprimises made in some areas, but for the most part i'm pretty darn happy with the design.css was a huge part of the redesign (which also overhauled some of the information architecture).all the developers were keen on the benefits and the business people love the agility of the design and the speed.cheers,pete otteryps: i'm no longer at fairfax digital but designing the site was the last major project i did before leaving.rest assured i'll pass on any feedback to them :) DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS
RE: [WSG] Problem with floating heights
Hi Adam,
Because floated elements are effectively removed from the flow of the
document, Firefox and Opera are (quite correctly) collapsing the height of
the containing div: it will only expand to the height of any non-flated
elements it contains.
Ironically enough, the solution to this is to use a 1px transparent gif!
Try the following:
css
container-div:after
{
content: url(clear.gif);
display: block;
height: 0;
clear: both;
visibility: hidden;
}
/* Hides from IE-mac \*/
* html container-div
{
height: 1%;
}
/* End hide from IE-mac */
/css
...replacing container-div with an appropriate selector for the div which
is holding the floated elements.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 April 2005 07:32
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Problem with floating heights
Ive made a little demo site, that shows my problem clearly
http://www.tres.dk/test
I want the container div to follow the heights of the floating elements,
#left and #right In Internet Explorer it does, but not in Firefox, Opera,
Safair or any other browser.
The height is 100% as default right ? so that's not the case here. The
margin is 0px also.
Does anyone knows what needs to be done ?
Adam DK
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expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents.
Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents
accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or
its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and
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Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan
Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number
785998
Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS
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RE: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
unfortunately (from the developer's perspective), it's all about spin and word-usage - which manytechies tend not to be very good at. Between developers, web standards and accessibility can be called exactly that. However,with clients (or non-technical personnel), their eyes glaze over at the first syllable of anything that sounds even vaguely code-related. Standards compliance and accessibility are definitely selling points - as long as you don't call them that! Many of the advantages of standards compliance have already been covered in this discussion (quicker loading pages (usually), future-compatability, etc etc), so I won't repeat them. Christopher Townson From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony TimberlakeSent: 12 April 2005 16:36To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point? I find that customers do not care about the standards, they just care that the end user can use it. It's like where the bun came from to the hot dog buyer. On Apr 12, 2005 11:22 AM, Michael Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathan Bloy wrote: I like this approach and it is pretty much the one I take.I should mention that Web Design is more of a hobby for me.So, I've only had a few clients of my own.But I wonder about the need to go into detail with clients about web standards.Hi,I think you have to be able to read your clients to make this decision.Some clients need or want to be heavily involved in a project, whileothers just want the site up and running and they don't really care howyou go about doing that. I think web standards are important to mention and if the client asks more about them you can certainly go into detail.But does your plumber or electrician go into long explanations about the standards they use when they're working for you?When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise to choose the best "standards" that are right for the job, not to ask me what techniques I think they should use.Plumbers and electricians, are required by law to perform services tocertain standards and to work within certain safety guidelines andregulations. Not doing so could jeopardize their business and lead topotential damage claims. Because my expertise in these areas is limitedto turning on a light and taking a shower, I have to rely on the*credibility* of the professional I hire. Rather than research thetechniques used to install a breaker box or fix a leaky pipe, I amforced to research the professionals reputation and rates and then makea decision based on that information--the task of which standard to usehas already been established by persons far more qualified than myself.Unfortunately, the Web is a little less restrictive when it comes to"technique" and technique can vary greatly.--Best regards,Michael Wilson**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- Anthony TimberlakeCo-Owner of StaticHost Internet Services - http://www.statichost.co.ukHead Director at Spike Radio - http://www.spikeradio.org DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS
RE: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's
In both Mozilla and Opera, I found that what was crucial was that the server (Apache, in this instance) was configured to deliver the file as application/xhtml+xml (+ being well formed, of course). Merely setting this in the document head was not sufficient. Thus, tidying up the code and adding "AddType application/xhtml+xml .xhtml" to httpd.conf got everything running smoothly. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan TrickSent: 08 April 2005 15:07To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's Ah, yes. Gecko does the same thing once it's given xhtml. only it's a bit more picky. You have to use the xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" if your going to get any styling action.Alan TrickKornel Lesinski wrote: On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:41:16 +0100, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm just curious if any popular browser would display this page properly http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html I though Moz would, but it disapointed me. Opera does, but only for XML (i.e. application/xhtml+xml). I've saved it as .xml, tided it to be well-formed and got: "Your browser (Opera/8.0 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en)) rules! Drop me a line..." DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS
RE: [WSG] CSS Document layout/structure
This is a very interesting topic. As someone who has to write CSS for others
(both colleagues in the development team and others who know very little
about CSS), I have started to adopt a pseudo-object-oriented approach to
writing stylesheets.
First, I split the pages I have to code into smaller, reusable objects; I
then identify these with a class. All the required XHTML gets wrapped in a
div and the CSS for this placed in a group with docblock-style comments
describing the what the CSS relates to; e.g.:
/**
* class[.subclass]
*
* the following establishes styles for blah blah...
*/
.class h1
{
property: value;
}
.class h2
{
property: value;
}
/* end: class */
... And so forth.
I set the absolutely essential values within the class (i.e. not usually
font-size etc...), thus, as with OO-programming, large chunks of the CSS and
HTML for any page can be ripped clean out and reutilised wherever it is
required.
This approach does make the stylesheets rather verbose, but I've found it to
work quite well if others have to be able to understand and apply your CSS.
It also helps if the designs one is working to are quite modular in
style...
Chris
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dr Christopher Townson
Web Design Department
Nature Publishing Group
The Macmillan Building
4 Crinnan Street
London N19XW
Tel.: +44 (0)20 7833 4644
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ricci Angela
Sent: 07 April 2005 12:30
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS Document layout/structure
Hi!
I always do the same: I group styles of the same nature, beggining
by redefining default values where it is needed, and then by page structure,
main blocks, navigation, forms, etc. And I always keep the same sequency for
each definition (first positionning, dimensions, font, background,
margins...), for exemple :
{
position: (or float)
width:
height:
font:
background:
border:
margin:
padding:
}
etc
I believe it helps a lot in consulting the css.
Cheers!
Angela
-Message d'origine-
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la
part de Jacobus van Niekerk Envoyé : jeudi 7 avril 2005 12:09 À :
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Objet : RE: [WSG] CSS Document layout/structure
I normally write my css to follow the structure of the xhtml:
/* Main layout*/
...
...
/* Nav */
...
...
/* Sub nav */
...
...
/* Content */
...
...
/* Side Content */
...
...
/* Footer */
...
...
I also tend to split my css in different files.
structure.css - keep all structure css
Text.css - all text related formatting
Small.css - used in style switcher to set text to small
Medium.css - used in style switcher to set text to medium
Large.css - used in style switcher to set text to large
Hacks.css - any hacks I might use to help IE ;)
I am open to other methods or ways of doing this Let us have a chat
about this issue.
Kind Regards
Jacobus van Niekerk
Creative Consultant
web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com
tel: + 27 21 982 7805
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of C Slack
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] CSS Document layout/structure
Hi,
I am struggling to get to grips with designing with web standards and one of
the problems I am having is with reading style sheets.
Having sorted out the html code to make it more readable and modifiable it
seems that we have shifted the mess to style sheets. Many of the sheets I
look at are long, comment-less and very difficult to understand.
So that I don't fall into the same trap, can anyone recommend some reading
on how to make style sheet structure and layout both understandable and also
easily modified?
Thanks,
Charlie
--
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