[WSG] Bobby is away Re: WSG Digest
Hi there. Thanks for getting in touch. I am on holiday. I'll speak to you when I get back. Bobby -- http://about.me/slobodanka.bobby.graham *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Bobby is away Re: WSG Digest
Hi there. Thanks for getting in touch. I am on holiday. I'll speak to you when I get back. Bobby -- http://about.me/slobodanka.bobby.graham *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Bobby is away Re: WSG Digest
Hi there. Thanks for getting in touch. I am on holiday. I'll speak to you when I get back. Bobby -- http://about.me/slobodanka.bobby.graham *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Bobby is away Re: WSG Digest
Hi there. Thanks for getting in touch. I am on holiday. I'll speak to you when I get back. Bobby -- http://about.me/slobodanka.bobby.graham *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Bobby is away Re: WSG Digest
Hi there. Thanks for getting in touch. I am on holiday. I'll speak to you when I get back. Bobby -- http://about.me/slobodanka.bobby.graham *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] ebook.epub markup and device compatiblity as well as web standards concern
Hi there In response to tee's enquiry about ePUB for ebooks, we've had experience in converting PDFs with tables and images using Aspose and Calibre, which are free ebook convertors. The results were good and I think if you use the paid versions of these applications, you could enhance your tables if necessary. I hope this is helpful. Bobby On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:47 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: Curious if anyone here has experience with ebook development using epub format that you can share, e.g., common mistake, devices compatibility and accessibility issue. I am in need to make an ebook using the popular epub format, and my research shows that it's basically the same as building a website, using XHTML, CSS, XML etc. Was reading a web related ebook the other day from iPad's ibook, the book has tabular layout and images, because I had the font size enlarged, and this resulted the tabular layout got cut off, which is fine if it can break the row, and display whatever left on the next page. It doesn't, instead bottom part of the text in the row got cut off as it reaches footer, so I set the font size to normal, the table displays more rows but with the same result with bottom part of the text in the last row of the given page got cut off. Similar occurs to images too. It's an ebook from A Book Apart, therefor I assume that with the solid team behinds it, this is not caused by negligence in layout but something that can't overcome. Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- http://about.me/slobodanka.bobby.graham *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Freelance Designer Needed
Not a freelancer, but I highly recommend: http://fluidlino.com.au Cheers, Graham Weldon http://grahamweldon.com e. gra...@grahamweldon.com p. (+61) 0407 017 293 On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Daniel Anderson daniela...@gmail.comwrote: G'day, not sure if I am allowed to ask this on this list or not, but I am struggling finding someone. I am in need of a Guru designer to team up with on a few jobs that I have. All I need will be the PSD files and I will handle all the coding etc. If anyone could recommend someone that would be greatly appreciated. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
I am out of the office and will return on Wednesday afternoon, 2 April 2008. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
I am out of the office until Tuesday 11 March 2008. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
How do you legally distinguish standards-compliant from non-compliant anyway? IE is clearly the worst of the bunch, but I'm not aware of a browser that doesn't have any rendering bugs. Would the requirement be be at least as compliant as opera? And if so, how do you measure that? Acid2? Number of CSS selectors understood? And which standard? IE renders HTML 3.2 pretty well, if not perfectly, 4.01 like crap, and XHTML (as xml) not at all. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Site check
Can the more obsessive compulsive members of the group check our new site for problems please? :) http://www.trademarkads.com At least Felix et. al. will be happy that I didn't specify a font size on body. - Problems I've already found - 1) Contrast problem on the logo text 2) Huge download size, but I doubt we'll fix that. At least it's usable before images or flash finish loading. 3) Nav text isn't resizeable, but my coworkers insist on that font since the newest versions of IE and Opera have zoom, as will the next version of FF. I disagree but lost the vote. 4) Visual captcha that doesn't have an audio version... alas my higher-ups don't think it's worth paying for a good captcha. Maybe they have a good point that the visually impaired don't tend to purchase visual advertising. Still, it makes me cringe every time I see it. 5) The galleries... umm... I'm working on those. Even I have accessibility problems using them. If anyone has suggestions on how they should behave to make them more usable, pleeease tell me. At least they're usable with javascript disabled, but very ugly. TIA *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] POSH article question
Tom said: pLets make this word bvisually/b called out/p But that would be a pain to maintain. Consider this: pMybStyled/bCompanyName is a really good company.../p ... pWe offer bwebsite optimization/b services.../p You want the b in the company name to be red because that's how your company's name is styled. You also want the b in the second paragraph styled red, but for a different reason. A few months later, you change your mind and want the company name to be styled with blue. If you had them both classed with the reason you wanted them red, you'd only have to change the stylesheet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Element suggestion requested
Maybe they are a 'list' of values, and a ul/li would be best. Yup. It's a list of values. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] 1to1 markup suggestions
I've always seen a definition list as a simpler way of representing any 2-column table with implied column headers of term and definition or property and value. So according to me (and i AM perfect after all), both would be correct. A definition list would be simpler, and a table would give you more flexibility, but both would be correct. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Markup for Poetry?
Are there any discussions or examples on strategies for marking up and styling poetry? If you're simply looking for line breaks where they belong, use br/ [1]. If you're including poems where whitespace plays a bigger role[2], use pre. [1] until xhtml2, with its l element (which i reallly hope gets renamed) [2] e.e cummings, dylan thomas, etc. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] site check - almost ready for prime time
I would appreciate it if you guys could check it out for any errors or wrong practices Most/every page has two h1's, and there should only be one per page. Ideally, you should keep the h1 for the page title, but not for the site title. Your cites should probably not be in their own paragraphs if the cite can be styled directly. Other than that, looks great. Some may also say that having a splash screen page (a page with no other navigation other than enter) is a bad practice, but I think that's more a matter of personal preference. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Let's take your example to the next level, what if the person who decided to remove the Age column thinks there is no need for Position either, she'd want to keep just the name, would you keep the table? Then there would only be one coordinate, and I think a 1-dimensional table -is- a list. Not that I just think it should be marked up as one, but I think that's the defining characteristic of a list (in web semantics and elsewhere). As such, it still -could- be marked up as a table, but I think a 1-dimensional table and a list are semantically equivalent. I suppose I look at a table as a series of lists that are related to one another. And once you get two related lists, along comes the need to show how those lists are related, which is what all the descendant elements of tables are designed to do, and which definition lists don't provide. More seriously, in my opinion yes, it would stop being tabular data because then the top row for the headers becomes useless. Look at it this way: if that (two column) table was linearized, its content would still make sense. I disagree. What if instead of taking out age, we took out position? Then we'd have: John Smith 20 Jane Doe 23 Is that number their age? Their rank in sales numbers? The number of years they've worked for the company? You'd need to work around what you're missing from tables with something like In the following list, each name is followed by the age of the person. And if you're going to do that, why not do it for three or four columns as well? But for me, tabular data is data that *need* x and y reference to make sense. And 2 column tables do need it to make sense, unless the relation between the two columns is described elsewhere. A table allows you do describe the relationship between the two lists within the data structure. And I think the semantics of an element should be described by that element, not by some random sibling element. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Besides the fact that name/value is an example of what would go inside some ths? Or in this case name and position. I guess the situation I'm forced to wonder about in regards to your stance on this is this: You have a 3 column table: NamePosition Age John SmithPresident 70 Jane Doe CFO 65 And after filling up this table, someone decides, you know, having the age in there is really pretty pointless, so they remove that column from the table. Does/should this make it stop being tabular data? Finally, something I disagree with Thierry on! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I think it could either be a table or a definition list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE
To improve the look of it for the client I have added some javascript which hides the buttons and uses onclick events on the labels so that the submit button doesn't need to be clicked. I've done something somewhat similar recently, and found this was finally an excuse to use the noscript element. Try sticking your submit button inside a noscript instead of hiding it with javascript. Worth a try. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] noscript
Best practice would be to avoid noscript where at all possible. Start by assuming that the user does not have JavaScript enabled, so that the simple version is part of the content, then use JavaScript to hide or modify this to show your enhanced version. I'm curious if you'd (both singular and plural) be against my recent use of noscript. I have a web app that has a toolbar across the top. While editing information using this app, the toolbar contains Save and Cancel buttons. However, the form is below the toolbar. I have unobtrusive javascript use DOM to create the Save button, and then at the bottom of the form, i have a normal submit button inside a noscript. So if javascript is enabled, you get the Save button in the toolbar where it would be expected, and if not, it gracefully degrades to having a standard submit button in the form. I figured this would be the most accessible option The only other option I could think of would be to use DOM to remove the normal submit button when the Save button is created, but would there be any benefit to doing that over using noscript? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content negotiated links: why so bad?
The webmaster I'm talking to is responsible for URLs that end like this *.cfm?doc_id=n ... and thinks it's perfectly acceptable In that case, the webmaster is making dynamically generated pages. URLs that end like that are necessary, because they're used to pass variables to the page. The other option is to use post to pass the variables, which could cause annoyance when refreshing or using back/forward. Beyond that, any way to get rid of the ?doc_id=n and such at the ends of the URLs would require an entire rewriting of the backend, or maybe even getting rid of the backend all together and writing every page as static html. Which likely isn't worth it just to get easier URLs. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] transparent background of png
but when I view this using a laptop the transparent background is blue. You must be using IE6 on the laptop Is there something I am doing wrong? Not unless you're a microsoft employee If not what are my other options to make this work in all browsers and viewing devices? You can feed MS proprietary filters to IE. http://www.bioneural.net/2006/08/09/valid-fix-for-png-transparency-on-a-single-image/ is the first thing i found, but a search for transparent png ie should turn up plenty of workarounds. I use a php solution that automatically converts all of my img elements that contain pngs into MS's proprietary stuff if IE is the browser, but I cant find it at the moment. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title
!ELEMENT FIELDSET - - (#PCDATA,LEGEND,(%flow;)*) -- form control group -- Looks like it's required to me and it's the same in both Strict and Transitional DTDs. I'm looking at the XHTML 1.0 Strict DTD right now and I see: !ELEMENT fieldset (#PCDATA | legend | %block; | form | %inline; | %misc;)* I know it was required in HTML 4.01, but it looks optional in XHTML. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display:Table
I'd say it's technically correct, as they'd simply be displayed as a table without changing the semantics... but I'd feel dirty using them like that. I'd feel like it was a hack. I'd much rather keep doing things as I do now until CSS's multi-collumns get finished and supported. Imagine that all display values are supported by all browsers as of midnight tonight. Do you think that using display:table and display:table-cell to create multi-column layouts is correct or incorrect - and why? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display:Table
Display:table isn't any dirtier than float:left. I never said it was a rational feeling. ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
This is the only time I've ever seen a form inside a fieldset, instead of the other way around. I can't even find an example of it that way at w3.org. I know it's valid, but are there any drawbacks to doing it this way? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] missing menu: rendering bug in Firefox?
but Firefox (only in windows, curiously) is the only browser that refuses to acknowledge its presence there. Works fine for me on FF1.5/WinXP. Are you using 1.5 of 1.0x? Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/2005 Firefox/1.5 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
Most common uses of br/ can and should be replaced by CSS, as they're presentational. Some examples of semantic use of br/ are to seperate lines of a poem, lines of an address, etc. In these cases (especially poems), the line break is important to the content itself, not just how you would like it to be displayed. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
is it recomended outside p-tags for extra lineshifts? This is best done by adding margins or padding to the paragraphs. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] XHTML 1.1 Entities (WAS Claiming compliance when a site doesn't comply)
Patrick said: and once you go from XHTML 1.0 strict to 1.1 (yes, yes, changing mime type and all that) there are a few more things to look out for ... not being allowed any character entities apart from the basic amp; lt; gt; quot; and apo; - so things like copy; for instance will not be valid). Are you sure? The XHTML 1.1 DTD (1) includes (and requires) the Modular Framework Module (2). This module includes the XHTML Character Entities Module (3), which includes three entity files: XML-compatible ISO Latin 1 (4), ISO Math Greek and Symbolic (5), and XML-compatible ISO Special (6). These entity files contain everything from aacute; to zwnj;, including copy;. Of course it's very possible that I'm completely missing something. 1) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/xhtml11_dtd.html 2) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-framework-1.mod 3) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-charent-1.mod 4) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-lat1.ent 5) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-symbol.ent 6) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-special.ent ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox 1.0.x rogue PNG background line
Looks fine for me on FF 1.5/win. Not sure about 1.0.x. Could it be the beloved gap below images because of default vertical-align being baseline problem? Probably not since it works in 1.5, but worth a shot if you havent tried it. Try setting the image's vertical-align to bottom. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 Entities (WAS Claiming compliance when a site doesn't comply)
List of XHTML 1.1 entities, served as application/xhtml+xml : http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/xhtml/entities/entities-11.xhtml I really hope I'm right, or I'm gonna have to go back to a lot of sites to fix a lot of ldquo;s and such. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Wish-list for 2006
1) MS donates IE to MoFo, who then discontinue it instantly 2) Opera goes open source 3) Executives of Sony BMG and RIAA do jail time for racketeering 4) All remaining browsers fully support XHTML 2.0 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Syllabus: Site Critique
The only problem I see in IE6/Win is very minor. The top margin/padding that it has in other browsers doesn't show up in IE6/Win, so the logo butts up against the very top of the page. One other minor thing (in all browsers I tested) is a very noticable flashing on the first time I hover one of the nav links. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check Please (Clattco)
With larger text sizes, your sidebar headings become white on white. I'd suggest vertically expanding that background image, or setting a similar background color along with the image. That and a few things like empty paragraph elements and stray /div on some of the pages. Last (and probably least), a future-proofing warning: If you ever decide to serve that site as xhtml instead of text/html, it'll break because of the content of your style elements. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check Please (Clattco)
Last (and probably least), a future-proofing warning: If you ever decide to serve that site as xhtml instead of text/html, it'll break because of the content of your style elements. Nevermind, it might not. I've become so paranoid that I tend to enclose any non-xml/html in cdata's because I serve as xml, but in your case, I don't think it'd break. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. You guys are great! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the kind of assignment that makes you want to scream
i like tabs as much as anybody else, but when it's _that_ bad, it's time to move them from the top to the side. wouldn't look nearly as bad as a vertical nav, and wouldnt have the flyouts covering 50% of the remaining nav ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
A desperate attempt to simplify: CSS Driven: No presentational markup, no semantic markup used improperly for presentational purposes. CSS handles all presentation. Not CSS Driven: Lots of presentational markup, but CSS for font sizes and colors. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Dragon Way (Site Check)
Title: Dragon Way (Site Check) http://test.dragon-way.com/ Any other comments would be ace. Firstly, congratulations on putting together a site that is well structured with the headings etc. My comments relate more to the usability and accessibility aspects. Your splash screen and internal top menu use the mystery meat paradigm, ie you dont know what the graphics relate to until you mouse or tab over them. The first doll doesnt show a title if tabbed, only if moused over If images are turned off as many users on slower modems do, you cant get past the splash screen There is no indication via alt tag or other that the Dragon Way logo actually links to a contact page My guess would be that many users would click on the Dragon Way logo on the splash screen expecting to go to an introductory page about Dragon Way and would be quite confused when they arrive on the contact page. This should of course be verified through user testing. I would have expected much more detail about the food. While it is good to know where the restaurants are I would not be enticed to go there unless I had a reasonably good idea of the menu. It the menu page intended to be expanded or is the list it??? The title on the menu page is also confusing. I clicked on menu, my expectation is to see what dishes are offered if I go to the restaurant. The page title states Take away and home delivery menu. Questions will automatically be raised. Is this different to the restaurant menu? Are the prices different? Where o I find the restaurant menu? Did I click on the wrong thing? Etc etc. Much better just to title it Menu then add text if take away and dine-in differ. Regards Graham Cook www.uaoz.com
RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
Geoff Deering wrote: Mandatory data fields, Required data, fields that require correct data after validation should all be grouped together with a *fieldsetlegend*. This informs all users of the requirements of that data. Leave fields that do not meet this criteria outside this group, either in a separate group or ungrouped. I can't agree with this Geoff. There are many examples where some fields are mandatory and others optional but need to be in one fieldset group. Some examples include; first and surname mandatory, middle name optional, home phone mandatory, fax or mobile optional, addresses where extra optional fields are added for long or complex addresses. This standard of putting an asterisks * after (or before an input field) does not only not inform an unsighted user, it often gives the indication after they have tabbed through the field, to late for them to manage their input without back tracking. The standard that I had used for the past several years was to place a statement at the start of the form explaining the significance of the asterisk. These are then included within the field labels and are read by screen readers (use text asterisk not an image). Any errors identified upon validation are listed at the top of the form (after the asterisk description) and preferably include a link to go to the offending field(s). The fields in error should also be identified both visually and textually (ref http://telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc page 27). Regards Graham Cook www.uaoz.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
At lot of work went into the Telstra standards, it's a shame they never utilised the knowledge within Rob Pedlow's Research team, because those set of standards, that have been in use for almost half a decade, are full of holes and misunderstandings. The latest standards were published in March this year after extensive dialogue and input from Rob's team. The standards were to raise Telstra's conformance from priority level 1 to priority level 2. Unfortunately just after they were published Rob went overseas and Telstra closed down the standards department (I was the standards manager) leaving the business units to fend for themselves and effectively removing the link to Robs team. Graham Cook www.uaoz.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with a javascript menu
Hi Carla,
Add the following style after your hover as shown below.
Regards
Graham Cook
www.uaoz.com
#nav li:hover ul, #nav li.sfhover ul {
left: auto;
}
* html #nav li:hover ul,* html #nav li.sfhover ul {
margin-left: 5em;
}
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
Having a validating vs non-validating site doesn't make much of a difference in accessibility, as long as the errors are minor. What -does- make a huge difference is semantic vs non-semantic. Having a list marked up as a list but missing a /li (in a DTD that requires it) it still much much more accessible than a list marked up as a two-column table with a ton on font tags. I've seen plenty of perfectly validating XHTML websites that completely ignore semantics, and in my opinion they're wasting their time. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
Having been in your position for some time until recently (I was standards manager for Telstra), I found that the best way to achieve change toward accessibility was to meet with the stakeholders and either take a transcript, or play directly a Jaws readout of a page that had been sliced and diced into tables, especially if non-semantic markup is also incorporated. Their reaction is often one of horror when they realize how incomprehensible their page becomes. If they need further convincing, just ask them how to find one or two of the most visually obvious items within the Jaws rendition. Cheers Graham Cook www.uaoz.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?
so why not use a Javascript solution? As a horrible understatement, because I'm not very good at javascript ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is this a tabular data?
I agree with Jachin. The most semantic way of doing it would be: dl dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd /dl ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is this a tabular data?
Ok, I was basing my last post on the pdf. Things change a bit if you're throwing in a list of posts and stuff. I agree with Jachin. The most semantic way of doing it would be: dl dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd /dl ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Hi James, I would argue that your statement I hate this website, I can't find anything on it. I'm going somewhere else - that's someone caring about accessibility. Is someone caring about usability not accessibility. Whats the difference? Usability is about being fit for the intended purpose, accessibility is about being equally available to all demographics, or as I describe them when I train web accessibility, usability discriminates against everyone equally, accessibility discriminates against individuals or specific groups of people. Graham Cook www.uaoz.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Ellis Sent: Monday, 31 October 2005 10:18 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites Hi Everyone cares about accessibility, both consciously and/or subsconsciously. I hate this website, I can't find anything on it. I'm going somewhere else - that's someone caring about accessibility. Cheers James On 10/31/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a thought, I wanted to point something out.No one cares about standards or accessibility but us.Its our job to care.
Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?
I would be concerned about a bug only showing up in Firefox, I believe that hiding something from Firefox is not the way to go, but rather, make it right in Firefox and then worry about the others. Usually I'd agree. But in this case, that won't work. :( ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Noob question... CSS padding on tables
I guess just apply the rule to td and th too.
table, th, td {padding: 1em;}
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Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?
I'm also not sure how browsers are supposed to handle a non-repeating animated gif as on-hover background, so I don't know what's correct behavior here. I'm not sure what the correct way is either, but regardless, I don't code to firefox or any other browser first. I code to standards first. Then I work around bugs. And while firefox is much better than IE, it still has its own unique bugs. So back to the original question, is there any way to serve a rule only to firefox (or only to non-firefox) without invalidating the css? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text within tables
THCategory/TH - for it to be semantically correct, should it be wrapped in P tags? It's hardly a paragraph and contains no other inline elements. Nope, no P tags. But if I were to use - e.g. THSelect a bcategory/b./TH - then I imagine P tags would make sense. I'd still leave out the p tags, since it's not a paragraph, just a sentence. Nothing wrong with having an inline element inside a th. If you feel funny using th as the only container, then i suppose you could wrap its contents in a div, but it's not necessary. What I'm really asking is what, from an accessibility poont of view, is the XHTML strict markup for this? XHTML 1.0 Strict and above is all I know, so that's what I'm basing my views on. The side effect of only knowing strict XHTML is that your capital tags and bold elements make me cringe. ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Is there a standard for this?
This isn't the usual type of question asked here, but it's very much a web standards question, so here goes. Take the following situation: An anchor element has a short, non-repeating animated gif as its background. On hover, that link's background is changed to a different image. Someone lets the page load, and allows that animated gif to play through to it's last frame. They then hover over the link, changing its background image. They move the mouse away from the link. Is there a standard anywhere that specifies what happens at this point? Should the animation start over, or should it go back to the last frame? In IE and Opera, it starts over. In Firefox, it skips to the last frame. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Firefox filter?
Believe it or not, part of my site works on every browser I've tested
-except- firefox. That's right. It works on IE, Opera, etc, but
Firefox screws it up. Is there any valid way make firefox (well,
gecko in general) ignore a rule, while still serving it to all other
browsers? The only method I can find is this:
selector { { declaration }
which obviously invalidates the css.
Incase anyone's curious, the problem involves using a non-repeating
animated gif as the background of a link, and a different
non-repeating animated gif as the background when that link is
hovered. I'm using it to make a bullet slide toward the link on
hover, and slide back away from it on blur. After one link is hovered
for the first time, every hover after that causes it to skip from the
first frame to the last, then back to the first, ignoring all frames
in-between.
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Re: [WSG] Text within tables
The content of a table cell should only be in a paragraph element if the content of that cell is a paragraph. Should be a simple enough question but should text within a table cell ALWAYS be surrounded by P tags, or do we assume the TD to be the block element surrounding the inline text? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List item overlap
add line-height: 2em; to you #navigation_main li, #navigation_sub li rule ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
Probably because you're using br and not br /. My guess is, it's waiting for a /br and assuming the content after the first br should somehow be contained within it. Replace your brs with br / and see if that fixes it. Can anyone see why the br / is causing the content to drop down below the adjacent floated div in the page http://afterlifelink.com.au/charges/index.cfm? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
Because that is what you tell it to do. At the bottom of http://afterlifelink.com.au/css/formstyles.css Ok, maybe I should have looked at the css ;) but still, replace those brs with br /s if you're gonna call it xhtml in the doctype :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: snip / for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each row in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Nick, Producing a .doc may seem incongruous, but it is just one of around 150 documents covering all Telstra's online standards including wap, platform, styleguides information architecture etc. They are also a part of the overall online documentation repository which includes many product brochures and externally sourced documents comprising over 25,000 files. There is/was an ongoing project to convert these to more accessible formats but since they closed my department (Online Standards) I don't know of the progress now (if any). Grgards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 2:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org I first wanted to say thanks to Derek and Graham for providing all this really great info. Not that I'm fussed and purely playing devil's advocate but I cannot help but see some kind of irony in having an accessibility guideline document in .doc format. It's like the righteous word scribed on the devil's stationery or something, I can hear the indignant echoes of the do not send .doc files argument [1]. I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users to forms and alerts them. I was simply having the form errors at the top of the page and changing the appearance of the relevant field's label. This is clearly not good enough for screenreaders and until listening to (WE05 podcast) and reading the examples I had not thought through to a good solution. I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message like Please check the errors indicated in the form below ...at the top of the form and have the this must not be blank on the relevant field(s)? Thanks, Nick [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=do+not+send+word+.doc+files Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: snip / for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each row in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
You need to change your navlist a as follows
#navlist a {
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}
Graham Cook
UA Oz
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 11:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Hi,
I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the
a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up at
all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me
where I'm going wrong?
The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at
www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate.
Many thanks,
Mary
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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or bottom of the document. When used with %text, the element acts similar to a paragraph with breaks before and after. Example: ADDRESS Newsletter editorBR J.R. BrownBR 8723 Buena Vista, Smallville, CT 01234t;BR Tel: +1 (123) 456 7890 /ADDRESS Graham Cook UA Oz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
I would ignore this advice also. For a start, the general advice is to use a sans-serif font for screen display - not a serif font such as Times New Roman, Garamond, Century or Bookman. It is standard practice to specify the fallback fonts or font families to use if one is not installed on the users machine, so the argument of it dropping back to a miniscule Times New Roman is moot. Secondly, I have found users more accepting of web pages with a font size that is easily legible rather than the super tiny fonts sometimes used by the more artistic designers (eg http://www.ultrashock.com/ I always have trouble reading the text on this site) The author's comment On the web however the reader is free to set a font and size which he/she finds legible, and there is no need whatever for a web author to set a different one on the grounds of greater legibility for me bears no validity as the point is to set a default value but allow users to adjust to suit their preference, thus ems should be used not points or pixels as used for the examples. Graham Cook www.uaoz.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julián Landerreche Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2005 10:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point. Hi all, I have been reading few articles (like http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html) about avoiding Verdana font. But I cant get the whole point in this issue. I mean: I understand that if you use a tiny font-size (like 10px or 0.64em or 64% applied to the body) you will get into problems with all fallback fonts (especialy with Times New Roman). But if you specify a higher font-size value, like 0.8em or 80%, you get a nice Verdana size and if the browser falls back to a font like Times New Roman, it is still very readable. So, please, can someone point me what am I missing about avoiding Verdana? Thanks in advance and excuse my english Julián Landerreche ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 27/09/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 27/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Yes - that was my point Graham Cook www.uaoz.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Samuel Richardson Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2005 12:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point. Surely you would also specify sans-serif as a generic fallback from Verdana rather then using a serifed font? Samuel Graham Cook wrote: I would ignore this advice also. For a start, the general advice is to use a sans-serif font for screen display - not a serif font such as Times New Roman, Garamond, Century or Bookman. It is standard practice to specify the fallback fonts or font families to use if one is not installed on the users machine, so the argument of it dropping back to a miniscule Times New Roman is moot. Secondly, I have found users more accepting of web pages with a font size that is easily legible rather than the super tiny fonts sometimes used by the more artistic designers (eg http://www.ultrashock.com/ I always have trouble reading the text on this site) The author's comment On the web however the reader is free to set a font and size which he/she finds legible, and there is no need whatever for a web author to set a different one on the grounds of greater legibility for me bears no validity as the point is to set a default value but allow users to adjust to suit their preference, thus ems should be used not points or pixels as used for the examples. Graham Cook www.uaoz.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julián Landerreche Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2005 10:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point. Hi all, I have been reading few articles (like http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html) about avoiding Verdana font. But I cant get the whole point in this issue. I mean: I understand that if you use a tiny font-size (like 10px or 0.64em or 64% applied to the body) you will get into problems with all fallback fonts (especialy with Times New Roman). But if you specify a higher font-size value, like 0.8em or 80%, you get a nice Verdana size and if the browser falls back to a font like Times New Roman, it is still very readable. So, please, can someone point me what am I missing about avoiding Verdana? Thanks in advance and excuse my english Julián Landerreche ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 27/09/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 27/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Very strange IE glitch :(
After a few days, I've almost given up on working around this bug in IE. I've never seen it before, but hopefully one of you has: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/newsite/bug.html Short version: IE doesnt draw certain background colors/borders. But draws them if you move another window over, then away from them vertically. It's insane. Check it out. I tried removing all transparent background declarations and all background images, and it still did it. So I put them back. Please help? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)
semi-related: your main site (fastwrite.com) scrolls horizontally forever in firefox ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!
Lynx is text-only in the really old computer sense of the word. It can't display italics, only different text colors and background colors. This isn't a problem though. Displaying blockquotes as indented italics is just a popular way for graphical browsers to display them by default. It's not required or anything. If having your blockquotes in italics is important for the way you want your site to look, I recommend specifying that in your CSS. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS validator updated?
The CSS validator has a few new bugs mentioned recently on here. It's throwing errors where it shouldn't be, like on some integers that don't have .0 after them. Hopefully it'll get fixed soon. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] check website
A few suggestions: 1) The site could fit at 800x600, but the fixed margins make it too large. 2) Consider using text with background images for the menu and footer, instead of images of text. This would reduce file size and make the site useable by people who can't or won't view images. If that isn't an option, at least provide alt attributes for the images that contain text. 3) I'd recommend replacing multiple br / tags with margins or padding. 4) You have more than one element with the ID cent. Use classes instead, and your site will validate. 5) Use headings such as h1 and h2 instead of symantically empty elements such as div id=header ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox rendering issue
Try sticking something (a comment or whatever) inside your div id=postpreview/div There used to be a bug where Gecko wouldn't attempt to render empty divs. If it hasn't been fixed, it might be the problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] label for=
I'd do:fieldset legendTime/legend label for=""> Hour select id=hour option01/option option02/option option03/option ... /select /label label for=""> Minute select id=hour option01/option option02/option option03/option ... /select /label .../fieldsetNot sure if it's some kind of officially recommended practice, it's just my opinion.
Re: [WSG] the struggle to get valid
I don't know how many times I have to tell the other programmers. If you are going to use 25 br tags in a paragraph, you've got to close them! How are we ever going to pass XHTML standards? +5 mod points, funny karma. wait. wrong place. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
Ted had mentioned the example of navigation that is fully expressed as a list today may instead contain a list and other elements tomorrow (or conversely, on some pages it is only a list, on others it is a list plus headings, but on all pages it is the same navigation, etc.). But at what point does it become too much? Wrapping the sidebar in a div for those reasons may seem OK. But then why not wrap each list item in a div too, incase it needs two background images in the future? To me, divs that aren't actively and logically grouping items together (usually with a header, see section), are presentational elements*, as their only purpose is for applying style. I'm also unlikely to give up my habit of trying to slim things down to the final ounce possible. Good to know I'm not alone. * I know technically they're not presentational elements, so no point in arguing with me if you disagree.
Re: [WSG] braindead - iframes???
There's only one way I can think of making it work in IE: Use PHP to copy the external page to a local files(s), and use object to load it. IE doesn't seem to have a problem with local html files. Not sure about scripting support for it tho. This is the only situation when I don't use XHTML. Good luck. hehe
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
This is called the web standards group. I imagine that those here essentially adhere to the value of web standards, and discuss things in this context. And we are.Where in the standard does it say we are not *allowed* to use even one table for layout? Tables should not be used to position elements graphically. Tables used in this way, known as layout tables, do not observe the implication of tabular data inherent in the term table, and can create particular accessibility problems as described in the techniques that follow. Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#layouttables Unless of course you would argue the difference between should not and not allowed, in which case I guess you would win. From the get go the tables for layout approach was a hack Call it a hack if you like.CSS layouts are usually full of them too. Atleast then it's presentational hacks in the presentational layer.
Re: [WSG] td != div
Good topic. I'm going to re-think the whole approach on this project. My work here is done. Now I can go get some Krystals (eg. Whitecastles + Mustard - Holes in meat) and say to myself I might not know what I'm eating, but at least my pet peeve is silenced for the moment.
Re: [WSG] OL vs DL
I wouldn't lose any sleep over which is the most semantic way, as it can get fairly academic... But that's why I love this list. Even the smallest things get academic very quickly here. To get to the semantic root of it, ask yourself Does each subitem function as a definition of its parent? If so, it's a list of definitions (dl): dl dtFidelity/dd dd.../dd dd.../dd dtPoliteness/dt dd.../dd /dl If not, and the subitems are their own concepts, but are all related to the parent, use nested lists. In my opinion, it looks like the subitems are definitions of their parents. But then again, I don't know a thing about Bushido.
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers should be more like compilers... they should refuse to parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works.
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. That instructor has no business teaching web dev, as good instructors continue their education after finding a job, and that one seems to have stopped learning new things 6 years ago. Sorry. Venting. Annoying client. *sigh*
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. No reason? It makes it much easier to meet the absolutely necessary design requirement of... arbitrarily splitting the background color in half?
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
Does anyone agree that we are abusing the use of CSS (square pegs in round holes?) with the way we force it to do things that it perhaps was not really designed for? Maybe to an extent, but not nearly as much as using tables for layout is abusing tables. They were never meant to be used as layout, or even for presentation. They were created for tabular data. At least in CSS, we're abusing a presentational language for presentational purposes. The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them. I disagree. The web is an information medium. The most common way to access that information is through a graphical "web browser". A visual medium used to "browse" the information made available on the web (information medium). I rarely use a traditional, graphical web browser anymore. I have my computer read my RSS feeds and email aloud to me while I work and play games. I test pages I make in graphical browsers, and post flamebait as anonymous coward on Slashdot. That's about it. For those of you who use a background image, how do you get round the problem of the columns changing size? I hope you are not using a fixed width layout (as many CSS column layouts do)! ;-) *clicks my heels together three times and says "Column support in CSS3? Column support in CSS3?"* Final point I want to know is, in what way does a table (a simple 1 row 2 column table) actually cause any of the above problems you mention? How does it hinder someone from viewing it on a different device for example? How is it harder to update? I am not talking about multiple nested tables. Accessibility isn't just for blind people. It's also for the most disabled users of all: computers. Ever try to teach an HTML parsing script how to tell the difference between a table of data and a layout table? If people would just use semantic markup, it'd be as simple as "It's in a table element? Must be tabular data. It's in a p element? Must be a paragraph."
[WSG] td != div
In most of the previous table layout vs css layout arguments I've seen on here, people refer to divs vs tables. Now, I never learned table based layouts, and don't understand them (spacer gifs, etc). Because of this, I don't/can't think along the lines of I'm replacing tables with divs. But many of the XHTML/CSS sites I see clearly do. For instance, they'll put a ul inside a div id=menu, just so that they can style the ul, instead of just giving the ul itself an id. Or put the contents of a paragraph inside a span id=p1 instead of giving the paragraph itself an id of p1. The only time divs don't make me cringe is when they're used to enclose a group of elements with the header that applies to them, and this purpose of divs is being replaced with section. I know that divs are more semantically neutral than tables, but is wrapping an element in 5 divs and a span really that much better than wrapping it in a table? Hopefully this will start a debate that I can learn something from, since I have a limited background in tables.
Re: [WSG] td != div
what are you hoping to learn about? I don't have a clue. But in my experience, every time I've asked a debate-causing question on here, it's gone off on 50 tangents and I've learned a lot. *evil grin*
Re: [WSG] td != div
PS: How did you manage to avoid table layouts Lucky boy! I'm only 21, and didn't start doing commercial sites until recently. Before there was wide browser support for CSS, I was just doing web design as a hobby, and didn't really care if a single browser in the world displayed it correctly.
Re: [WSG] td != div
The most obvious one I can think of is the need for two background images. Sometimes this is the case, but often times it can be avoided with a little creativity, such as using a background image on the ul, and classing the first and last li to give them more height and different background images (good for vertical nav bars). But still, I guess sometimes it's necessary if the design isn't negotiable.
Re: [WSG] braindead - iframes???
Objects of type text/html (or application/xhtml+xml) are what I use. But good luck getting them to work in IE. In my experience, IE will only do it if it's a local (x)html file.
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
As far as I know, background images are still the only way. It's probably possible with _javascript_, but even if it is, I wouldn't want to put presentation in the behavioral layer. CSS should really really get some vertical formatting, and soon.Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a better way of doing it?
Re: [WSG] Designing for printing
Should I be trying to accommodate A5 printouts, or smaller printouts than the norm, and if so in what way? Ideally, yes, and by not using fixed widths. Otherwise, no, because it'd be way too much work. :-P
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index.html http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style.css At the moment this is displayed using a table. What would be the best way to display this without using tables, i.e. with a couple of divs for each image and text pair?
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
Seems the list filtered out my last response (probably thought it was spam) so this time I'll include text along with the links. Is this what you want?: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index.html and the css: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style.css
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
In that case: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index2.html style: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style2.css
Re: [WSG] How do I combat extra padding?
I just tested out Bert's solution, and it works. Set vertical align of the images to bottom. Very nice to know, thanks Bert. :)
Re: [WSG] Controlling the li gap?
easiest (and as far as i know, the only non-proprietay way) of doing it is to use a non-repeating background image on the li instead of a bullet, and control the spacing from it with padding.
Re: [WSG] Controlling the li gap?
you can have negative margins, but not negative padding. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/box.html#padding-properties
Use padding
example:
ul li {padding-left: 5px;}
that should helpcan use negative amounts
Re: [WSG] Controlling the li gap?
1) remove the bullet with list-style: none 2) create an image of a bullet 3) set that image as the background image (non-repeating) of the li 4) adjust left padding of the li to set distance from the fake bullet
Re: [WSG] absolute positioning in IE
Make sure the page validates. IE should render that fine unless it's in quirks mode. If it validates and still doesnt work, post a link and I'll have a look.
Re: [WSG] Screen Resolution for Fluid Layouts
Therefore I'm very curious as to what the general concensus is from my fellow standards advocates when designing sites using liguid layouts? Truely liquid layouts will look fine at any resolution. Your examples are not liquid layouts. Your first and last examples use fixed widths, and the middle one uses *cringe* tables for layout. If you must use fixed widths, you just have to decide what resolution you want your site to look best in, and wish luck to the rest. If you have a liquid layout, the question of best resolution doesn't apply. But I'm sure there will be plenty of replies to come that give you an easier answer, such as 800x600 is best.
Re: [WSG] my head is sore
The only problem I see in IE (IE6/Win) is that the sidebar's unordered list isn't lined up correctly. That's because IE uses margins to indent lists by default, and gecko uses padding. And you specified margin: 0 for the list, which removed the indent in IE. I recommend setting the padding to 0 in your #sidebar ul rule, then setting the left margin of it to whatever you want the indentation to be. Are you seeing more severe problems, or did you already fix them?
