Re: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
just in case anybody can't see what Peter is talking about the content.com.au web site has a byline that reads text matters. =) On 24 Jul 2005, at 2:30 PM, Peter Firminger wrote: Now, so that this email isn't a total OT waste of time, a giggle... Take a look at what http://www.content.com.au/ claim to do as a business and then look at the source code of the pages. Not one line of text to be seen! Not even a descriptive page title or any metadata whatsoever. I love it! No comments on this please, it isn't worth discussing. We can just feel superior in our collective wisdom. P _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but what you said before certainly was. Before you basically implied the cfm created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should be. I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance Thats not true at all, not even close. But I totally agree that it's all in how the developer does that makes it go :) _ From: wayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it won’t validate, but then I suspect it won’t validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to unmangle what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/bonus/render-mode.html Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging). _ From: wayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general
Re: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Hi If you use a server side language to deliver dynamic markup coded to the W3C standards the important thing is to drive the code, not let the language drive how you work and what gets sent to the client. It can be frustrating hearing the html is like that because XYZ language exports the html like that. PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby, Coldfusion etc all allow this freedom in my experience / grapevine. I'm sure there are others that do the same. The proper way is whatever you are comfortable with. Cheers James On 7/23/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a rapid development solution. I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Recently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a rapid development solution. I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! "The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. " then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. "ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)." From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionI think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect toweb standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language shouldnot really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NETand the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have moreeffect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that iseasily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configurethem properly. W-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebnSent: 23 July 2005 11:39To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionRecently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the wholeasp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only useasp byspecial request as it is not a "rapid development solution".I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to builddynamimcsites with regards to web standards?Forgive me if this is to ot.**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting helpThe discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Theres nothing wrong with any of the server side scripting languages if you build the client side output yourself. Edward Clarke ECommerce and Software Consultant TN38 Consulting http://blog.tn38.net Creative Media Centre 17-19 Robertson Street Hastings East Sussex TN34 1HL United Kingdom From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to unmangle what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!!
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to unmangle what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging). From: wayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Recently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a rapid development solution. I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but what you said before certainly was. Before you basically implied the cfm created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should be. " I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance" Thats not true at all, not even close. But I totally agree that it's all in how the developer does that makes it go :)From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:11 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! "The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. " then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. "ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)."From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionRecently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a "rapid development solution". I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Are we done now? Let me just say (as I wrote the offending line on the Max Design/Webboy sites) that I referred to ASP and not ASP.NET as not being a rapid development language (and I am right, it isn't... I used todo ASP sites). I really don't care what languages other people use, they all do the same thing essentially but some take less scripting than others. That par refers to whatWE do and whyWE use ColdFusion to do it(huge dev cost benefits for our customers). We turn down many job offers that specify PHP or ASP(.NET) as we could not quote competitively. That's just us. Not saying CF is better, just better for me. As for CF output, take a look at the source of http://www.frogsaustralia.net.au/- totally CF driven from a custom-built CMS and (I think) very neat source code. Now, so that this email isn't a total OT waste of time, a giggle... Take a look at what http://www.content.com.au/claim to do as a businessand then look at the source code of the pages. Notone line of text to be seen! Not even a descriptive page title or any metadata whatsoever. I love it! No comments on this please, it isn't worth discussing. We can just feel superior in our collective wisdom. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:20 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but what you said before certainly was.Before you basically implied the cfm created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should be." I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance"Thats not true at all, not even close.But I totally agree that it's all in how the developer does that makes it go :) From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:11 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: 23 July 2005 18:27To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what?thats a big load of BS!what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code?if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code).coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages.Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;)most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!!"The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. "then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace."ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)." From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionI think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect toweb standards compliance. The
