Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote: When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) Well, he's speaking for me as well. Al, do you really *not* find having to continuously scroll back and forth horizontally (because the width of the text block is wider than the viewport) to be an annoyance? If so then okay, but I do not believe that you are typical in this regard. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote: When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) Rick Lecoat replied: Well, he's speaking for me as well. Me too. I find that incredibly annoying, and it seems to happen in Bloglines a lot. Long lines are difficult enough to read without having to scroll. Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I agree with Rick here. Having to scroll horizontally is not only an accessibility issue but a serious design issue. I challenge AI to find proof people don't mind this as all my research and experience says otherwise. Joe On Jul 04, 2008, at 11:27, Rick Lecoat wrote: On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote: When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) Well, he's speaking for me as well. Al, do you really *not* find having to continuously scroll back and forth horizontally (because the width of the text block is wider than the viewport) to be an annoyance? If so then okay, but I do not believe that you are typical in this regard. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
At the end of the day, this whole question is a no-brainer: On the one hand you can annoy [a few .. most] people by forcing them to scroll horizontally, Or you can keep everyone happy by not allowing a horizontal scroll bar. Whether it is a major issue or a trivial issue is irrelevant as there is no compromise required: I absolutely guarantee that no genuine usability trial is ever going to find someone complaining that the site _doesn't_ expand beyond the view port! Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Lecoat Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 11:27 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote: When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) Well, he's speaking for me as well. Al, do you really *not* find having to continuously scroll back and forth horizontally (because the width of the text block is wider than the viewport) to be an annoyance? If so then okay, but I do not believe that you are typical in this regard. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 23:01, Felix Miata wrote: When you measure the whole design in characters, or fractions thereof, resolution does not matter. [...snip...] When a design is _properly_ made using character measurements, users don't need to zoom. Hi Felix; Assuming that I'm not misunderstanding you, then I'm not sure I agree. What you are describing sounds like an em-based design, and if the width of your design is specified in ems then it will still have a defined width -- it's just that the on-screen width is defined by the combination of the default text size [1] and the user's monitor setup. Assuming the user doesn't change the latter, then changes to text size *will* change the on-screen width of the design since that measurement is proportionally tied to the text size. And if the resultant on-screen width of the design exceeds the viewport size then you get our friend the horizontal scrollbar. However, you're already on-record as being extremely well versed in the intricacies of text size vs monitor resolutions, which makes me think that I might have misunderstood what you meant by [measuring] the whole design in characters. I have assumed that you are referring to an elastic design; if not then please set me straight. Best regards; -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk [1] irrespective of whether that's set by the designer or the user *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
See if this helps: http://www.eatons.net/sandbox/Greenwich.html On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote: Talking about zooming. I am trying to use PHP to create a web page that has a default font size (layout_medium.css). As it stands, I have broken everything since I am so new to PHP. There are two ways to use PHP in your page: 1/ As an include file:!-- # include virtual=/php/ todaysdate.php -- NOTE: the first part of the above comment should look like this: !--# (no space) 2/ As a short script between PHP tags : ?php [code] ? I used the first method in my example. I use Firefox 3.0 as my main browser. It looks Okay, however, the H1 foreground and background colors are not happening. I should have white text on red. And the Guide Star logo and graphical text is not aligning with the bottom left corner of the curve graphic. Look this over, ... i don't have your background image, but you can set the height of the header with the top margin of the eye image. I am not sure how to get IE6/7 to play along Or get PHP for Button1 Increase font size an button two decrease font size. Any Help is welcome. HTML http://www.choroideremia.org/new/crf_header.php CSS http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_medium.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_large.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_small.css Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http://www.infoforce-services.com Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into the light. - Helen Keller *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote: When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) Well, he's speaking for me as well. Al, do you really *not* find having to continuously scroll back and forth horizontally (because the width of the text block is wider than the viewport) to be an annoyance? Hi Rick, If a single or main text block is wider than my window, then that is a problem. Far more typical is that one or more sidebar or ancillary columns go off screen. In that case, I use my keyboard's arrow/navigation keys or make my window wider. It doesn't really annoy me though. I tend to get annoyed at other things ;-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Rick here. Having to scroll horizontally is not only an accessibility issue but a serious design issue. I challenge AI to find proof people don't mind this as all my research and experience says otherwise. Hi Joseph, I have no incentive to do formal research as I don't work as a usability consultant. As I stated in another post to this thread, an important criteria is the target audience. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Sure I agree with you also, that is just a head ache. but if your txt is scalable proportionally as a complete block without any width restriction and the surrounding content division also scales proportionally like in elastic layouts i think this works great! If the initial design width at 100% is made viewable without scroll bars for a browser set to 800px or equivalent on say a 17 screen, as most people are viewing with a higher resolution say 1024x768 on the same screen there is plenty of room for proportional scaling without introducing that awful side scroll bar! unless of cause the persons site is so bad that they are scaling to a size that no design with ever be able to cope with! From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Rick here. Having to scroll horizontally is not only an accessibility issue but a serious design issue. I challenge AI to find proof people don't mind this as all my research and experience says otherwise. Hi Joseph, I have no incentive to do formal research as I don't work as a usability consultant. As I stated in another post to this thread, an important criteria is the target audience. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Barry Wardrop redRoute Creative t: +44 01502506832 w: www.redroutecreative.co.uk e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 13:41, James Jeffery wrote: Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? The latest version of each of the big four do by default. Happily, it can be turned off in at least some of them. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
The latest versions of the 4 major browsers (IE, Opera, Safari and Firefox) all do zooming. It is *relatively* safe to assume that Firefox, Safari and Opera users will update their browsers on a regular basis as these browsers all have to be sought out and downloaded initially. However IE6 still hangs around and doesn't support page zooming, so I believe that you still have to check font resizing on layouts rather than assuming that all users can zoom. Font resizing is also available on all browsers so should be tested for anyway. That's my thought anyway. Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? I noticed FF2 wasn't using zooming but FF3 is and I know IE and Safari already do it. Any background information in this? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 2:14 PM, James Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The latest versions of the 4 major browsers (IE, Opera, Safari and Firefox) all do zooming. It is *relatively* safe to assume that Firefox, Safari and Opera users will update their browsers on a regular basis as these browsers all have to be sought out and downloaded initially. However IE6 still hangs around and doesn't support page zooming, so I believe that you still have to check font resizing on layouts rather than assuming that all users can zoom. Font resizing is also available on all browsers so should be tested for anyway. That's my thought anyway. -- Are all browsers now using zooming to resize pages? I noticed FF2 wasn't using zooming but FF3 is and I know IE and Safari already do it. Any background information in this? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 3 Jul 2008, at 14:55, Mark Stickley wrote: I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, which may not be what the user wants (when horizontal scrolling ensues). The line which made this clear to me was Georg's: wanting or having a need for larger text, doesn't mean one has or want a larger screen and/or browser-window. I've recently redesigned my own site in an elastic format, but I'm now wondering maybe that was not the best choice. It's actually only a temporary redesign so I'll have the opportunity to revisit the decision soon. I wonder to what extent the browser vendors sought feedback re. the pros and cons of zooming, because certainly Georg's comment would seem to apply to zooming as much as it did elastic/em-based layouts. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Stickley Sent: 03 July 2008 14:56 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, I think you meant to say MAY grow - a carefully designed elastic layout will not expand the viewport horizontally. Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
That's such a good point - that's been available since Windows 95 - possibly before. Surely if that's the behaviour they were after they would just use the functions built in to the operating system. Mark On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Mark Stickley *Sent:* 03 July 2008 14:56 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
That's the layout I am working on now for a large secured site. You have to make sure, that almost all values are using ems and percent, and that there are no fixed widths anywhere in the blocks of content. - this way you will not get horizontal scrolling when enlarging site. Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2008 10:25 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subjec RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, I think you meant to say MAY grow - a carefully designed elastic layout will not expand the viewport horizontally. Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? I think web developers have an irrational fear of scrollbars :-) They are tools to scroll a window, not signs of bad design. I have never encountered a friend, family member or other civilian who has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary. For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout. Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? Probably not. There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I have never encountered a friend, family member or other civilian who has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary. A horizontal scrollbar does not prevent users from accessing content but it reduces the efficiency with which they can do so. Not only does zooming introduce the horizontal scrollbar but it greatly increases the amount of vertical scrolling that is required compared with text sizing. Horizontal scrollbars cause terrible usability problems for people who use screen magnification because the scrollbar is not present except when they scroll to the very bottom of the page. If the content they wanted to view was in the top right-hand corner they have to scroll to the bottom of the page and back up again. Having seen this occur during many user testing sessions I advise strongly against horizontal scrollbars. In my view, zooming and text sizing are appropriate for different needs. For relatively small text size increases I think that text sizing is appropriate because it does not result in a horizontal scrollbar. If larger text sizes are required I would advise people to use the zoom function because the page layout often breaks badly at large text sizes (there are limits to what is achievable even when a site is designed well). Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sparber Sent: 03 July 2008 20:41 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar? I think web developers have an irrational fear of scrollbars :-) They are tools to scroll a window, not signs of bad design. I have never encountered a friend, family member or other civilian who has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary. For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout. Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? Probably not. There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote: an irrational fear of scrollbars When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not bother to look. Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
I haven't been totally following this thread, but My 15 yo son has low vision. It has come on very recently (last 6 months), He is 20/200 corrected. We have discovered the zoom feature on the old version of Mac OSx... he prefers it much more than enlarging text. We have played with some of the accessibility features on the the PC and they don't work for him. He has his own pc laptop and and hasn't been on it in months, he prefers to use my mac after I go to bed. The left right scroll and design in general becomes irrelevant in these situations. He wants to do what everyone else does and doesn't really care about scrolling to do it. His issues have affected how I feel as a developer. It really does boil down to usability. We are going to get some more testing and in depth help the 25th of this month (for any who are wondering). I am sure I will learn about all the things they have to offer him beyond zooming on a mac but for now this is working for us. -Trisha in Tulsa -Original Message- From: Al Sparber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 7/3/2008 2:41 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout. Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it wouldn't make a difference to them? Probably not. There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Trisha Salas [EMAIL PROTECTED] I haven't been totally following this thread, but My 15 yo son has low vision. It has come on very recently (last 6 months), He is 20/200 corrected. We have discovered the zoom feature on the old version of Mac OSx... he prefers it much more than enlarging text. We have played with some of the accessibility features on the the PC and they don't work for him. He has his own pc laptop and and hasn't been on it in months, he prefers to use my mac after I go to bed. The left right scroll and design in general becomes irrelevant in these situations. He wants to do what everyone else does and doesn't really care about scrolling to do it. His issues have affected how I feel as a developer. It really does boil down to usability. We are going to get some more testing and in depth help the 25th of this month (for any who are wondering). I am sure I will learn about all the things they have to offer him beyond zooming on a mac but for now this is working for us. - More important than anything we can discuss here, I wish your son well and pray that his vision problems are managed. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote: an irrational fear of scrollbars When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not bother to look. Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO. I think you have to first buy into someone else's usability tests. I don't. I am skeptical of many usability manifestos. That said, I'm not totally sure one way or another on this issue. What I am sure of is that I have not conducted conclusive testing, but the testing I have conducted leads me to believe, for now, that fear of scrolling is a fear that is far more prevalent among web developers than it is for the general population. As for right columns falling outside the viewing area - whose viewing area? What size window? How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear? -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Well here's a guy who has done a bit of usability testing. To quote from the article: We know from user testing that users hate horizontal scrolling and always comment negatively when they encounter it. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20050711.html Of course he could be entirely wrong but I don't know of any more credible research than his. How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear Quite a few actually, now that designers tend to design for a minimum screen resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people still using lower resolutions. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Sparber Sent: 03 July 2008 22:17 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming From: Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote: an irrational fear of scrollbars When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not bother to look. Concern for either of these is scarcely irrational fear IMHO. I think you have to first buy into someone else's usability tests. I don't. I am skeptical of many usability manifestos. That said, I'm not totally sure one way or another on this issue. What I am sure of is that I have not conducted conclusive testing, but the testing I have conducted leads me to believe, for now, that fear of scrolling is a fear that is far more prevalent among web developers than it is for the general population. As for right columns falling outside the viewing area - whose viewing area? What size window? How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear? -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
On 2008/07/03 22:32 (GMT+0100) Steve Green apparently typed: designers tend to design for a minimum screen resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people still using lower resolutions. This is most unfortunate for all, because screen resolution should be a non-factor in designing for the web. The web is not paper. When you measure the whole design in characters, or fractions thereof, resolution does not matter. Zoom, whether text only or page, is a defense mechanism designed to counteract stupid/naive/rude design. When a design is _properly_ made using character measurements, users don't need to zoom. -- Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry. Ephesians 4:26 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
From: Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well here's a guy who has done a bit of usability testing. To quote from the article: We know from user testing that users hate horizontal scrolling and always comment negatively when they encounter it. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20050711.html Of course he could be entirely wrong but I don't know of any more credible research than his. I know a lot of folks respect him. I'm not a huge fan, though. Like everything, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other usability issues come to bear Quite a few actually, now that designers tend to design for a minimum screen resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people still using lower resolutions. A user's video settings do not equate with the size of his window. Taking the approach I see so often taken by some web designers, if I were truly going to design a page for people whose monitors were set to 1024 x 768, I would have to assume the actual browser window would not, as is often the case, be maximized. Now what do I do? ;-) I don't intend to be argumentative and I really do wish I knew what the answer were. Since I don't, I have to conclude that there are probably many different answers. Sites like A List Apart or my own can probably get away with a wider fixed design because of our audience. If I were making a site for health information, it might wind up a lot more flexible. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
- More important than anything we can discuss here, I wish your son well and pray that his vision problems are managed. *** Al, Thanks for the thoughts and prayers...it appears that there isn't anything they can really do at this point. We are just going to have to learn how to manage this. It is a bit frustrating because this kid is the most physically active and high energy of my kids and he is frustrated at times with this limitation. I will say this has really changed the way I think about usability and design. It has become 'real' to me and not just a best practice (which I tried to adhere to before) It is interesting to read all the opinions and discussion because it helps me think through things whether I agree or not. Thanks! Trisha in Tulsa *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Talking about zooming. I am trying to use PHP to create a web page that has a default font size (layout_medium.css). As it stands, I have broken everything since I am so new to PHP. I use Firefox 3.0 as my main browser. It looks Okay, however, the H1 foreground and background colors are not happening. I should have white text on red. And the Guide Star logo and graphical text is not aligning with the bottom left corner of the curve graphic. I am not sure how to get IE6/7 to play along Or get PHP for Button1 Increase font size an button two decrease font size. Any Help is welcome. HTML http://www.choroideremia.org/new/crf_header.php CSS http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_medium.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_large.css http://www.choroideremia.org/css/layout_small.css Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http://www.infoforce-services.com Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into the light. - Helen Keller *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
