RE: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
See: http://accessites.org/site/2007/02/graceful-degradation-progressive-enhancement/4/ On Fri, January 30, 2009 12:29 pm, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Agreed - people certainly aren't getting any smarter as far as web technologies go. Particuarly as the web is now viewed as a common commodity that virtually everyone has access to. In the old days, it was more or less used exclusively by tech savvy users; it was very far from the plug and play service it is now. Unless an automated system is switching off javascript for the end user, from my experience the vast user base of the common population isn't going to actively go into settings and make a conscious effort to switch it off. The vast majority don't even know what it is. I, for one, will carry on designing sites on the basis that the chances of someone using a javascript disabled browser stumbling across me is minimal. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dixon Sent: 26 January 2009 22:50 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript Again, can you show that the small decline in IE's market share has contributed to users blocking Javascript or using specific Firefox extensions? IE has had plugins such as the Web Accessibility Toolbar etc for some years now that allow disabling of Javascript very easily, so why would the usage of another browser and additional extensions change this? People do change their viewing habits all the time, and migrations between browsers will continue (whether to IE detriment or not), it doesn't mean people are getting smarter or that they are concerned at all about Javascript (im sure the security concerns over IE6/7 that have talked about over in the mainstream news networks over the past couple of years have had nothing to do with Javascript, and are far more related to Microsoft's proprietary ActiveX functionality). If memory serve's, the people are getting smarter observation has been stated on this mailing list since its inception, and we've yet to see any evidence of this. David David Lane wrote: Agreed - the level of savvy of most user is absurdly low, and at present few will know what Javascript is, much less how to disable it. The question is whether people today design for today's users, or tomorrow's... The trend will continue towards more sophisticated users, using better browsers (i.e. not IE) which support useful plugins like NoScript and their analogues for Opera, Webkit, etc. I suspect as more and more people get burned by identity theft and other forms of exploitation, the pain individuals experience will provide a strong motivation for learning. Also, organisations will increasingly make that decision on behalf of their users to minimise their own risk... Cheers, Dave *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Agreed - people certainly aren't getting any smarter as far as web technologies go. Particuarly as the web is now viewed as a common commodity that virtually everyone has access to. In the old days, it was more or less used exclusively by tech savvy users; it was very far from the plug and play service it is now. Unless an automated system is switching off javascript for the end user, from my experience the vast user base of the common population isn't going to actively go into settings and make a conscious effort to switch it off. The vast majority don't even know what it is. I, for one, will carry on designing sites on the basis that the chances of someone using a javascript disabled browser stumbling across me is minimal. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dixon Sent: 26 January 2009 22:50 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript Again, can you show that the small decline in IE's market share has contributed to users blocking Javascript or using specific Firefox extensions? IE has had plugins such as the Web Accessibility Toolbar etc for some years now that allow disabling of Javascript very easily, so why would the usage of another browser and additional extensions change this? People do change their viewing habits all the time, and migrations between browsers will continue (whether to IE detriment or not), it doesn't mean people are getting smarter or that they are concerned at all about Javascript (im sure the security concerns over IE6/7 that have talked about over in the mainstream news networks over the past couple of years have had nothing to do with Javascript, and are far more related to Microsoft's proprietary ActiveX functionality). If memory serve's, the people are getting smarter observation has been stated on this mailing list since its inception, and we've yet to see any evidence of this. David David Lane wrote: Agreed - the level of savvy of most user is absurdly low, and at present few will know what Javascript is, much less how to disable it. The question is whether people today design for today's users, or tomorrow's... The trend will continue towards more sophisticated users, using better browsers (i.e. not IE) which support useful plugins like NoScript and their analogues for Opera, Webkit, etc. I suspect as more and more people get burned by identity theft and other forms of exploitation, the pain individuals experience will provide a strong motivation for learning. Also, organisations will increasingly make that decision on behalf of their users to minimise their own risk... Cheers, Dave *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Well if a sysadmin is going to block js, then he/she will probably block facebook as well PS: I've been on this list for a while but only recenly started reading them! James -- James Milligan Lake Internet Services On 30 Jan 2009, at 12:29, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Agreed - people certainly aren't getting any smarter as far as web technologies go. Particuarly as the web is now viewed as a common commodity that virtually everyone has access to. In the old days, it was more or less used exclusively by tech savvy users; it was very far from the plug and play service it is now. Unless an automated system is switching off javascript for the end user, from my experience the vast user base of the common population isn't going to actively go into settings and make a conscious effort to switch it off. The vast majority don't even know what it is. I, for one, will carry on designing sites on the basis that the chances of someone using a javascript disabled browser stumbling across me is minimal. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dixon Sent: 26 January 2009 22:50 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript Again, can you show that the small decline in IE's market share has contributed to users blocking Javascript or using specific Firefox extensions? IE has had plugins such as the Web Accessibility Toolbar etc for some years now that allow disabling of Javascript very easily, so why would the usage of another browser and additional extensions change this? People do change their viewing habits all the time, and migrations between browsers will continue (whether to IE detriment or not), it doesn't mean people are getting smarter or that they are concerned at all about Javascript (im sure the security concerns over IE6/7 that have talked about over in the mainstream news networks over the past couple of years have had nothing to do with Javascript, and are far more related to Microsoft's proprietary ActiveX functionality). If memory serve's, the people are getting smarter observation has been stated on this mailing list since its inception, and we've yet to see any evidence of this. David David Lane wrote: Agreed - the level of savvy of most user is absurdly low, and at present few will know what Javascript is, much less how to disable it. The question is whether people today design for today's users, or tomorrow's... The trend will continue towards more sophisticated users, using better browsers (i.e. not IE) which support useful plugins like NoScript and their analogues for Opera, Webkit, etc. I suspect as more and more people get burned by identity theft and other forms of exploitation, the pain individuals experience will provide a strong motivation for learning. Also, organisations will increasingly make that decision on behalf of their users to minimise their own risk... Cheers, Dave *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
2009/1/27 Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk: As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as list members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual live user stats to the table. Last time I checked JS stats (around 12 months ago) at the site I work on (with membership of over 1 million and thousands of users per day - just saying that to illustrate that the sample is large), 10% of unique visitors did not have Javascript running. I believe that would not include many robots, as the point of detection for the stats was after a search form submit. I was shocked when I saw that, to be honest: I was expecting something closer to 2 or 3 percent. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Our small county site has about 297k visitors last year and about 1.9% (5,700) had Javascript disabled according to SuperStats. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 14:33, Jessica Enders jess...@formulate.com.auwrote: Hi Pascal In the JavaScript/Accessibility/form validation discussion you mention the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript. I'm always curious just how many people this is. Do you, or does anyone else, have any statistics on this? Is there a reason you describe it as a growing number? Any information greatly appreciated. Cheers Jessica Enders *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Given the increased number of threats and the availability of slick script blocker extensions for Firefox like NoScript (http://noscript.net/) it's only going to get more common, particularly among security conscious people. I certainly use it, only enabling Javascript for a site I'm visiting when I can see what benefit it has to me. Cheers, Dave On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 07:33 +1100, Jessica Enders wrote: Hi Pascal In the JavaScript/Accessibility/form validation discussion you mention the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript. I'm always curious just how many people this is. Do you, or does anyone else, have any statistics on this? Is there a reason you describe it as a growing number? Any information greatly appreciated. Cheers Jessica Enders Principal Formulate Information Design http://formulate.com.au Phone: (02) 6116 8765 Fax: (02) 8456 5916 PO Box 5108 Braddon ACT 2612 On 19/01/2009, at 11:14 PM, Simon Pascal Klein wrote: If there were further communication between the user and server between submission of the form that would entail a page reload then a screen user shouldn’t have an issue, whereas if JavaScript would run in the background and inject errors or suggestions as it thinks the user makes them (e.g. password complexity recommendations, username not available messages) numerous accessibility issues arise. The only solution that came to mind was having a generic message (such as ‘please fill out all marked (*) fields’ or the like) that could be hidden using CSS and through JavaScript ‘unhidden’ when an error appears (though it could only be a generic error). As dandy as these automatic feedback and error messages are through JavaScript maybe a full submission and subsequent page reload is best—after all it’s impossible to tell those users using an accessibility aid like a screen reader from those who do not, and hey, the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript won’t see the glitzy JavaScript injected errors anyway. Just my 0.2¢. On 19/01/2009, at 5:52 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Isn't 'aria-required' a non-standard attribute? Sadly, yes. But there is some hope: it is possible that ARIA will be accepted in HTML5 and there is an initiative to provide validation for (X)HTML+ARIA: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/ 2008Sep/0381.html Validator.nu already has experimental support for HTML5+ARIA, and I believe (did not check) http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/ provides the same for document type HTML5. There is also a possibility to add ARIA attributes with Javascript. All the options are controversial, but that's how it is for now :( Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Concept designer (w) http://klepas.org (e) kle...@klepas.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147 p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
I have JS disabled, and only enable it for sites which I decide I need it working. Due to the way I work, I often have hundreds of browser tabs open and I can leave them open for weeks with JS off. I also find it educational to see which sites have non-functional forms because they have used JS only to drive them, or who's layout is totally governed by multimedia For example, this last month we were looking into buying a car, and the only conclusion I could come to, is that most car manufacturers are not interested in selling cars, rather than they are failing media outlet wannabes. Sven -- Consulting wiki Engineer Sven Dowideit - http://fosiki.com A WikiRing Partner - http://wikiring.com Public key - http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Sven+Dowideitop=indexexact=on David Lane wrote: Given the increased number of threats and the availability of slick script blocker extensions for Firefox like NoScript (http://noscript.net/) it's only going to get more common, particularly among security conscious people. I certainly use it, only enabling Javascript for a site I'm visiting when I can see what benefit it has to me. Cheers, Dave On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 07:33 +1100, Jessica Enders wrote: Hi Pascal In the JavaScript/Accessibility/form validation discussion you mention the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript. I'm always curious just how many people this is. Do you, or does anyone else, have any statistics on this? Is there a reason you describe it as a growing number? Any information greatly appreciated. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
_javascript_ should be implemented only to supplement / layer existing functionality. Your site should operate just fine without it... There are always exceptions to this rule however you shouldn't let _javascript_ dictate how you code. Thanks, Anthony. Sven Dowideit wrote: I have JS disabled, and only enable it for sites which I decide I need it working. Due to the way I work, I often have hundreds of browser tabs open and I can leave them open for weeks with JS off. I also find it educational to see which sites have non-functional forms because they have used JS only to drive them, or who's layout is totally governed by multimedia For example, this last month we were looking into buying a car, and the only conclusion I could come to, is that most car manufacturers are not interested in selling cars, rather than they are failing media outlet wannabes. Sven ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
David Lane wrote: Given the increased number of threats and the availability of slick script blocker extensions for Firefox like NoScript (http://noscript.net/) it's only going to get more common, particularly among security conscious people. I certainly use it, only enabling Javascript for a site I'm visiting when I can see what benefit it has to me. As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as list members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual live user stats to the table. Most normal users don't even know that the internet is not just the blue E on their desktop, or what javascript is, or how to install extensions, or what security threats are. Heck, most don't even know that they can zoom/text resize/print most of the time, without having a widget or icon on the actual pages. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Hello Patrick, On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 21:55 +, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: David Lane wrote: Given the increased number of threats and the availability of slick script blocker extensions for Firefox like NoScript (http://noscript.net/) it's only going to get more common, particularly among security conscious people. I certainly use it, only enabling Javascript for a site I'm visiting when I can see what benefit it has to me. As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as list members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual live user stats to the table. Most normal users don't even know that the internet is not just the blue E on their desktop, or what javascript is, or how to install extensions, or what security threats are. Heck, most don't even know that they can zoom/text resize/print most of the time, without having a widget or icon on the actual pages. Agreed - the level of savvy of most user is absurdly low, and at present few will know what Javascript is, much less how to disable it. The question is whether people today design for today's users, or tomorrow's... The trend will continue towards more sophisticated users, using better browsers (i.e. not IE) which support useful plugins like NoScript and their analogues for Opera, Webkit, etc. I suspect as more and more people get burned by identity theft and other forms of exploitation, the pain individuals experience will provide a strong motivation for learning. Also, organisations will increasingly make that decision on behalf of their users to minimise their own risk... Cheers, Dave -- David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147 p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Agreed, if people have real long term usage statistics that they can share to support the claim that Javascript use is in decline, and not focus on very one-sided arguments of personal use or everyone i know then I'd be interested to hear. Until that time, or my own analysis supports these claims (which they certainly do not) I will remain completely sceptical. Oh and arguments over technical solutions that provide the ability to limit Javascript usage and talking about increasing threats etc are not terribly insightful as these are the same arguments that were made years ago and its a very old and unsubstantiated argument (for example, I can assure you that the large array of anti-Flash extensions for Firefox has made bugger all impact on the market penetration of Adobe's Flash Player or its usage). David Patrick H. Lauke wrote: David Lane wrote: Given the increased number of threats and the availability of slick script blocker extensions for Firefox like NoScript (http://noscript.net/) it's only going to get more common, particularly among security conscious people. I certainly use it, only enabling Javascript for a site I'm visiting when I can see what benefit it has to me. As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as list members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual live user stats to the table. Most normal users don't even know that the internet is not just the blue E on their desktop, or what javascript is, or how to install extensions, or what security threats are. Heck, most don't even know that they can zoom/text resize/print most of the time, without having a widget or icon on the actual pages. P *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
Again, can you show that the small decline in IE's market share has contributed to users blocking Javascript or using specific Firefox extensions? IE has had plugins such as the Web Accessibility Toolbar etc for some years now that allow disabling of Javascript very easily, so why would the usage of another browser and additional extensions change this? People do change their viewing habits all the time, and migrations between browsers will continue (whether to IE detriment or not), it doesn't mean people are getting smarter or that they are concerned at all about Javascript (im sure the security concerns over IE6/7 that have talked about over in the mainstream news networks over the past couple of years have had nothing to do with Javascript, and are far more related to Microsoft's proprietary ActiveX functionality). If memory serve's, the people are getting smarter observation has been stated on this mailing list since its inception, and we've yet to see any evidence of this. David David Lane wrote: Agreed - the level of savvy of most user is absurdly low, and at present few will know what Javascript is, much less how to disable it. The question is whether people today design for today's users, or tomorrow's... The trend will continue towards more sophisticated users, using better browsers (i.e. not IE) which support useful plugins like NoScript and their analogues for Opera, Webkit, etc. I suspect as more and more people get burned by identity theft and other forms of exploitation, the pain individuals experience will provide a strong motivation for learning. Also, organisations will increasingly make that decision on behalf of their users to minimise their own risk... Cheers, Dave *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
