Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
Hey Dwain,
1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will have
to be quite simple. For example, NN4 requires borders around any containers
where background colour and padding are used - in order for the background
colour to spread out behind the padded areas.
2. you will probably want to serve NN4 some CSS but then be able to
over-ride this CSS for newer browsers.
3. luckily, NN4 does not support multiple media types so you can simple
serve two CSS files via the link elements in your html document. The first
CSS file link contains a single media type = screen. The second CSS file
link contains two media types - screen, projection - which NN4 cannot
read. For example:
link rel=stylesheet href=nn4.css type=text/css media=screen /
link rel=stylesheet href=modern.css type=text/css media=screen,
projection /
4. Rules that are written in the second file that are of the same weight as
in the first file will over-ride those in the first file - because the
second file is later in the source order. For example:
nn4.css may contain:
body { color: blue; }
modern.css may contain:
body { color: red; }
NN4 will see blue text, all modern browsers that support the multiple media
type will see red text.
This is based on the the Cascade order: 4. Finally, sort by order
specified: if two rules have the same weight, origin and specificity, the
latter specified wins.
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/cascade.html#cascading-order
HTH
Russ
on 23/3/08 6:27 PM, dwain at wrote:
i have a style sheet for a site that i would like to serve a netscape 4 style
sheet, but i don't know how to do it. would someone offer advise as to how to
do this. some sample code would be a nice touch.
dwain
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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
thanks russ, i'll give this a try. dwain On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Dwain, 1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will have to be quite simple. -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Dwain, 1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will have to be quite simple. when i view this site on the internet with nn4 the design breaks. i expected this. nn4 sees the background png and the background images as well even though the rest of the design breaks. i placed netscape.css first and adg-styles.css second in meta order. i would expect that the same styles in both sheets would make nn4 go ga-ga, but i get no styles at all in nn4. i placed the same styles from the default sheet in the netscape style sheet to work on getting nn4 to at least accept margins, but no, nothing, nada. now i'm really puzzled. i'm going to work this out. any ideas why nn4 shows no styles, when fed the same style sheet that breaks it on the web, locally? dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
Hi Dwain, Hard to tell what is going on... Can you put a simplified version online for us to see? Easier for people to help then :) Thanks Russ when i view this site on the internet with nn4 the design breaks. i expected this. nn4 sees the background png and the background images as well even though the rest of the design breaks. i placed netscape.css first and adg-styles.css second in meta order. i would expect that the same styles in both sheets would make nn4 go ga-ga, but i get no styles at all in nn4. i placed the same styles from the default sheet in the netscape style sheet to work on getting nn4 to at least accept margins, but no, nothing, nada. now i'm really puzzled. i'm going to work this out. any ideas why nn4 shows no styles, when fed the same style sheet that breaks it on the web, locally? dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
Hello Dwain, Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to support NN4? Thanks! Matijs On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Dwain, 1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will have to be quite simple. when i view this site on the internet with nn4 the design breaks. i expected this. nn4 sees the background png and the background images as well even though the rest of the design breaks. i placed netscape.css first and adg-styles.css second in meta order. i would expect that the same styles in both sheets would make nn4 go ga-ga, but i get no styles at all in nn4. i placed the same styles from the default sheet in the netscape style sheet to work on getting nn4 to at least accept margins, but no, nothing, nada. now i'm really puzzled. i'm going to work this out. any ideas why nn4 shows no styles, when fed the same style sheet that breaks it on the web, locally? dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
On 3/23/08, Matijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Dwain, Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to support NN4? Thanks! Matijs been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards. -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dwain, Hard to tell what is going on... Can you put a simplified version online for us to see? Easier for people to help then :) http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/affordable-custom-web-site-design.html http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/css/netscape.css here's the page and css. thanks, dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
dwain wrote: On 3/23/08, *Matijs* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Dwain, Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to support NN4? Thanks! Matijs been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards. The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience is using this dinosaur of web browsers... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
On 3/23/08, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dwain wrote: been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards. The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience is using this dinosaur of web browsers... i'm reading the 2nd edition from 2006. he made a comment about how some organizations are still using nn4 because of their apps are geared toward nn4. i thought i would try my hand at making sites nn4 friendly. i do appreciate your comments though. like i said, just experimenting. i've been learning much about standards and document structure and semantics, etc, from my reading and this list. i think i'm getting the hang of all this. i've been designing sites since 2000 when i was using go live 5 and tables. things have really changed since then. i converted my art site to html and css in 2004 and i'm still not through with the accessibility part of it. i've got a lot of writing to do describing art work. cheers, dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
dwain wrote: On 3/23/08, *Patrick H. Lauke* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dwain wrote: been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards. The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience is using this dinosaur of web browsers... i'm reading the 2nd edition from 2006. he made a comment about how some organizations are still using nn4 because of their apps are geared toward nn4. i thought i would try my hand at making sites nn4 friendly. i do appreciate your comments though. like i said, just experimenting. i've been learning much about standards and document structure and semantics, etc, from my reading and this list. i think i'm getting the hang of all this. i've been designing sites since 2000 when i was using go live 5 and tables. things have really changed since then. i converted my art site to html and css in 2004 and i'm still not through with the accessibility part of it. i've got a lot of writing to do describing art work. cheers, dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Just for interest, I have a site which went live on November 19th 2007, and the stats show that 35 users have been there using NN4. Fair enough, this number represents only 0.24% of all users ( 14,351 unique) but my view is that, if there is an easy way to include those 35, then that's a good thing. . . Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Designer
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:07 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
dwain wrote:
On 3/23/08, *Patrick H. Lauke* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
dwain wrote:
been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.
The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in
first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some
NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for
sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience
is using this dinosaur of web browsers...
i'm reading the 2nd edition from 2006. he made a comment about how some
organizations are still using nn4 because of their apps are geared
toward nn4. i thought i would try my hand at making sites nn4 friendly.
i do appreciate your comments though. like i said, just experimenting.
i've been learning much about standards and document structure and
semantics, etc, from my reading and this list.
i think i'm getting the hang of all this. i've been designing sites
since 2000 when i was using go live 5 and tables. things have really
changed since then. i converted my art site to html and css in 2004 and
i'm still not through with the accessibility part of it. i've got a lot
of writing to do describing art work.
cheers,
dwain
--
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky
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Just for interest, I have a site which went live on November 19th 2007,
and the stats show that 35 users have been there using NN4.
Fair enough, this number represents only 0.24% of all users ( 14,351
unique) but my view is that, if there is an easy way to include those
35, then that's a good thing. . .
I agree. imho, if an author has time/budget/knowledge to support NN4, then why
not?
Dwain,
If you target only NN4 and no other old browsers, then you could use JavaScript
to sniff for DOM support and plug a LINK element.
For example, you could use something like this:
if (!document.getElementById) document.write('link rel=stylesheet
type=text/css href=/css/v4.css /');
Then you use the media hack (as Russ suggested) or @import to prevent NN4
from reading your other sheets (for modern browsers).
Note that NN4 does not apply styles without JS support, so using JS to plug the
styles sheet is OK in this case.
On the other hand, I wonder how many NN4 users browse the Web with JS on as
there are so many scripts out there that are not old browsers friendly...
--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
On 3/23/08, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
I agree. imho, if an author has time/budget/knowledge to support NN4, then
why not?
Dwain,
If you target only NN4 and no other old browsers, then you could use
JavaScript to sniff for DOM support and plug a LINK element.
For example, you could use something like this:
if (!document.getElementById) document.write('link rel=stylesheet
type=text/css href=/css/v4.css /');
Then you use the media hack (as Russ suggested) or @import to prevent
NN4 from reading your other sheets (for modern browsers).
Note that NN4 does not apply styles without JS support, so using JS to
plug the styles sheet is OK in this case.
On the other hand, I wonder how many NN4 users browse the Web with JS on
as there are so many scripts out there that are not old browsers
friendly...
thanks thierry, now i just might be able to pull this off. i went to your
site using nn4 and it looked good, that's what i want for myself and my
clients. i'm glad you replied.
cheers,
dwain
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--
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky
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