[WSG] display: inline-block: valid or not? W3C validator says not.
My style sheet contains this line:
.clearfix {display: inline-block;}
When I validate I get one error: Invalid number : display
inline-block is not a display value : inline-block
The word display links to
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-display.
That's CSS2, right?
I then found this:
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-display .. which says
inline-block is ok.
That's CSS2.1, right?
So, the validator link which points me to the error of my ways is
going to old CSS specs? Is that what it's supposed to do? What, so
that means I can't put a Look at me! My CSS is valid! message on my
site in case someone clicks it and says Nyah, no it isn't! .. ?
What have I missed here please? It's making my blonde roots show
through just thinking about it. There is obviously something
fundamental that I don't understand. I'm trying to use web standards
(notice how I sneaked that in so this is on topic), but the validator
is confusing me!
I do realise this is probably a very stupid question, and it's more
than a little scary asking a stupid question on this list, but I'll
wear the result if it means I can understand what I've done wrong.
Thanks,
sunny.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM
Hi Jan, Maybe strange questions - Do the users of screen readers have flash? (I have no idea for a reason why they shloud) Some screen readers sit on top of browsers like IE. If IE has Flash embedded in it, and the Flash has been made accessible (see http://www.webaim.org/techniques/flash/), then it's exposed to the screen reader. The reason that screen readers should have access to Flash is that developers sometimes put important information in Flash movies, and people using screen readers should have access to it. - And do the screen readers read the elements from the document, even if they're not in DOM? Occasionally. The abbr element isn't included in IE's DOM, but JAWS, which sits on top of IE will expose the abbr element to the visitor depending on the verbosity settings. The reason I ask this - I'm including a flash header via UFO v1.0 [1], based on its presence detection. If positive, the script exchanges (in DOM) an H1 element with the flash object, so I wanted to know, how this can result in various scenarios. UFO uses DOM injection. Screen readers partially support JavaScript, but they don't appear to understand changes to the DOM once the document has loaded. I haven't tested UFO with a screen reader, but it's very unlikely that it will be exposed to screen reader users. Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] display: inline-block: valid or not? W3C validator says not.
CSS 2 - W3C recommendation CSS 2.1 - Working draft Until CSS 2.1 becomes a recommendation, which shouldn't be too long (deadline for comments was July), the W3C validator will use what ever the current recommendation is. Regards Jason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] display: inline-block: valid or not? W3C validator says not.
CSS 2 - W3C recommendation CSS 2.1 - Working draft Until CSS 2.1 becomes a recommendation, which shouldn't be too long (deadline for comments was July), the W3C validator will use what ever the current recommendation is. Just to be a touch pedantic, CSS2.1 only needs to become a 'candidate recommendation' before it should be considered 'the' CSS. This is equivalent to what the W3C used to call a 'recommendation' and means that browser makers should be looking to implement it as CR is feature stable. CSS2.1 can't be a 'recommendation' until a full test suite has been completed, which requires the assistance of browser makers building implementations. As such, the validator may well start responding to CSS2.1 syntax earlier than 'recommendation'. We'll see. Ben http://ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS rollover with dynamic drop down menu
I'm trying to combine a CSS image rollover with a drop down menu. Everything is working fine bar the css image rollover. For some reason the a:hover is not being read. I've probably missed something very simple but just can't see it. http://www.re-entity.com/Menu/index.htm http://www.re-entity.com/Menu/style.css Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Stuart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS rollover with dynamic drop down menu
G'day
I'm trying to combine a CSS image rollover with a drop down menu.
Everything is working fine bar the css image rollover.
For some reason the a:hover is not being read. I've probably missed
something very simple but just can't see it.
Your HTML:
lia id=Home title=Home href=index3.jsp/a/li
Your CSS:
#Home a:hover {background: url(Menu.gif) no-repeat 0px -14px;}
That rule will be applied to a hovered link *inside* another element that has id=Home.
However, in your HTML *the link itself* has that id.
To fix it, either put the id on the list item (li) or change the css to
#Home:hoverSame goes for the other links.
Hope this makes sense.
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement
Hi all, Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with rollover states for submit buttons. I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with: 1. background image for input type=submit / but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 2. text-indent=-1000em for button type=submit submit/button but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE. I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with rollover states. Thanks! Rex. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Internationalization Articles Published
The W3C Internationalization GEO (Guidelines, Education Outreach) Working Group publishes information to help people understand and use international aspects of W3C technologies. These articles are likely to be useful to WSG folks. In the past month, the group published - Using Character Entities and NCRs http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-escapes.html - Using select to Link to Localized Content http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-navigation-select - Ruby Markup and Styling http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/ruby/ There is also a regular stream of updates[1] and translations[2]. For details and I18n news and RSS feeds[3], visit the Internationalization home page[4]. [1] http://www.w3.org/International/#qa [2] http://www.w3.org/International/#newtrans [3] http://www.w3.org/International/log/description [4] http://www.w3.org/International/ RI Richard Ishida W3C contact info: http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ W3C Internationalization: http://www.w3.org/International/ Publication blog: http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] display: inline-block: valid or not? W3C validator says not.)
SunUp wrote: I do realise this is probably a very stupid question, and it's more than a little scary asking a stupid question on this list, but I'll wear the result if it means I can understand what I've done wrong. Thanks, sunny. Goodness Sunny, There really is no such thing as a stupid question - please, I really hope that this list has not reached the point that newer subscribers feel intimidated to ask questions. Your question was both valid and well posed. Hey everybody! There is no such thing as a stupid question (although occasionally we will see stupid responses...) Cheers all! JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement
Rex, Safari won't let you style at all. Take a look at what I did on www.whatcanido.com.au for the search fields top-left. Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rex Chung Sent: Monday, 15 August 2005 9:16 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement Hi all, Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with rollover states for submit buttons. I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with: 1. background image for input type=submit / but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 2. text-indent=-1000em for button type=submit submit/button but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE. I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with rollover states. Thanks! Rex. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Forcing Display of Block
Very simply: div pHello./p p/p /div Is there any way to have the second p appear without inserting a non-breaking space? Curious. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forcing Display of Block
G'day Very simply: div pHello./p p/p /div Is there any way to have the second p appear without inserting a non-breaking space? Question: What's the (semantic or otherwise) meaning of the empty paragraph? If it's only there to add extra white-space, why not add padding-bottom:1em (or whatever you need) to the div? If it's there for another reason, you could try giving it a height (through CSS) Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] display: inline-block: valid or not? W3C validator says not.)
John Foliot - WATS.ca There is no such thing as a stupid question (although occasionally we will see stupid responses...) You tell 'em John :) P __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE: Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] display: inline-block: valid or not? W3C validator says not.)
Patrick Lauke wrote: John Foliot - WATS.ca There is no such thing as a stupid question (although occasionally we will see stupid responses...) You tell 'em John :) P As a point of clarification, when I say stupid responses, I meant in the form of condescending or mean responses, rather than factually inaccurate responses (which sometimes *do* crop up, but not that frequently). My concern was that a new member felt intimidated to ask a question here, which made me sad... JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Table header
Why stop there? Here's the skeleton of a two column table with summary, caption, header, body and footer. Note that the first column is designed to be a label for the data in the second. Also note the placement of the tfoot element in the sequence. This is important. table id= class= summary= caption/caption thead tr th colspan=2 title=/th /tr tr class=col th scope=col title=/th th scope=col title=/th /tr /thead tfoot tr td colspan=2 title=/td /tr /tfoot tbody tr th scope=row/th td/td /tr /tbody /table -- Douglas Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://loadaveragezero.com/ http://loadaveragezero.com/app/s9y/ http://loadaveragezero.com/drx/rss/recent From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:16:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [WSG] Table header Lea de Groot wrote: The thead tag is the key - If you're using thead, you may as well go all the way and add a tbody as well... table thead tr thID/ththVar 1/ththVar 2/th /tr /thead tbody tr tdID VALUE/td tdVar 1 value/td tdVar 2 value/td /tr /tbody /table -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forcing Display of Block
* Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-15 10:18]: G'day Very simply: div pHello./p p/p /div Is there any way to have the second p appear without inserting a non-breaking space? Question: What's the (semantic or otherwise) meaning of the empty paragraph? If it's only there to add extra white-space, why not add padding-bottom:1em (or whatever you need) to the div? If it's there for another reason, you could try giving it a height (through CSS) It's a JavaScript/W3C DOM hack. I'm trying to fashion an edit control out of W3C DOM. I need to keep it from collapsing if the user removes all the text. It makes little sense otherwise, so I'm not surpised it's not readily supported. I'll probably use the hight as you mentioned. Thank you. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? I personally find it annoying to open a pdf document in the native window and having to wait for the reader to load. I usually right-click and open in a new window. However, I know some people expect that to happen and could lose their place if a bunch of windows are opened. I would use the _javascript_ approach to avoid using target="_blank". This should avoid the complications of having PDA devices or screen readers attempting to open multiple windows. So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever. Thanks Ted Drake Web Collaboration Services Science Applications International Corporation 858.826.3856 / 858.826.3336 (fax)
[WSG] blog business summit
Hi All Is there anyone on this list that is going to the blog business summit in San Francisco this week? I'd like to meet and say hello to any fellow list members. http://www.blogbusinesssummit.com/index.htm?businesslogs Ted www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links
Floating the link left as well as display:block should make the image sit at the end of the text, as opposed to spaning the width of the page. This can cause problems in a few older browsers such as Netscape 6, as once you float something left it is no longer a block element. Hope that makes sense. - Original Message - From: Drake, Ted C. To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:32 PM Subject: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. Theimage sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0;All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top whenthe text wraps to a second line. Is there a way to make the backgroundimage follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as ablock?I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, butdidn't fix the issue.Here's an exampleGood link: | Google Virtual || World (icon) |Bad link:| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't | World | flow with the textHas anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline imagesand our standard is to have the icon on the right and not the left.Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left and it would have been acake-walk.P.S. sorry about an earlier html formatted email, I try to send them inplain text.ThanksTed Drakewww.tdrake.net **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links
Hi Paul I should have mentioned that the link normally appears within paragraphs of text. It will sometimes appear as a link inside a list. Floating is an interesting option for other applications. Thanks Ted - Floating the link left as well as display:block should make the image sit at the end of the text, as opposed to spaning the width of the page. This can cause problems in a few older browsers such as Netscape 6, as once you float something left it is no longer a block element. Hope that makes sense. --- We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0; All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when the text wraps to a second line. Is there a way to make the background image follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a block? I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but didn't fix the issue. Here's an example Good link: | Google Virtual | | World (icon) | Bad link: | Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't | World | flow with the text Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images and our standard is to have the icon on the right and not the left. Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left and it would have been a cake-walk. P.S. sorry about an earlier html formatted email, I try to send them in plain text. Thanks Ted Drake www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] table-cell and ie
Please help as I am starting to go bald from pulling by hair out over this issue. Is there anyway (hack) to get Internet Exlporer to abide by the table-cell property? Or is there a max-height hack for IE? :-) Janelle
Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving
On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another HTML help group... Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the market that'll help me be a successful freelancer. For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim and sexy coding. I always laughed off the disability thing the same way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except all the disabled spots. Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Reason for leaving
Here is something to remember, even if disabled visitors are not your main concern. The biggest blind user in the world is Google. Code your pages correctly, delivering friendly pages to the disabled and Google, and your customers will benefit in many ways. It's not just about doing what is charitable. It is about doing what is best for everyone. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Duncan Stigwood Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another HTML help group... Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the market that'll help me be a successful freelancer. For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim and sexy coding. I always laughed off the disability thing the same way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except all the disabled spots. Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving
Hi Duncan, Is there really that many disabled internet users? Accessibility is about usability for everyone, not any specific interest group. Millions of users on the Web don't consider themselves disabled but use features that we incorrectly consider as accessibility only features. These include browsing with larger fonts, using keyboard shortcuts, browsing with images turned off, etc. Discussing Web standards in relation to one specific group like blind users using assistive technology is useful because it makes it easier to spot errors in your markup and design approach. Also, keep in mind that search engines process your Web site just like assistive technologies. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Duncan Stigwood Date: 8/15/2005 1:35 PM On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another HTML help group... Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the market that'll help me be a successful freelancer. For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim and sexy coding. I always laughed off the disability thing the same way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except all the disabled spots. Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving
I can't remember where I read it but the article claimed that there is at least 750 million disabled people worldwide. (I know not all of them are blind etc and is probably not using the Internet... but as Vlad say Accessibility is about usability for everyone, not any specific interest group Kim Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Duncan, Is there really that many disabled internet users? Accessibility is about usability for everyone, not any specific interest group. Millions of users on the Web don't consider themselves disabled but use features that we incorrectly consider as accessibility only features. These include browsing with larger fonts, using keyboard shortcuts, browsing with images turned off, etc. Discussing Web standards in relation to one specific group like blind users using assistive technology is useful because it makes it easier to spot errors in your markup and design approach. Also, keep in mind that search engines process your Web site just like assistive technologies. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Duncan Stigwood Date: 8/15/2005 1:35 PM On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another HTML help group... Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the market that'll help me be a successful freelancer. For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim and sexy coding. I always laughed off the disability thing the same way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except all the disabled spots. Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Myself I would say when possible have an alternate txt or html file. I strongly discourage pdf on websites unless it is a zip file for download. As stated by Damian they are annoying for users with modems, and I find them annoying at all times. Keep pdf's for printing and inter office. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Damian Thanks for the feedback. We use CSS to place an icon in front of the link to illustrate the file format as well as the (filename.pdf, 35k) designation. Is there anyone out there that supports opening in a new window? If not, it looks like I will suggest we keep it behavior-free. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Damian Sweeney Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation.. Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them. We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it. We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window). We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it). I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule. Regards, Gary On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted,I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enoughinformation in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to dealwith different file types according to their preference (open the documentin the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give usersthe option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do Ichoose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference?The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I haveto place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'mdoing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to.Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, Iwould recommend something like:a href="" stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read thelinks.Cheers,Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly.What is the general feelingtowards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?--Damian SweeneyLearning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills UnitInstructional Designer, AIRport ProjectEquity, Language and Learning ProgramsUniversity of Melbourne723 Swanston StParkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/airport.unimelb.edu.au/ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information orinformation that is otherwise confidential or the subject ofcopyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part ofitis prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email orany attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check anyattachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If thisemail is received in error please delete it and notify us by returnemailor by phoning (03) 8344 9370. **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I fall in line with Gary. I'm savvy enough to right-click on pdf links but when I forget to do it, I'm aggrevated by the browser having to load the reader software. I would be happy to have it open a new window. This is for an intranet site, but I think the discussion is valid for all web sites. I use this: return false; instead of target="_blank". Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to target a _javascript_ to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link. Correct me if I'm wrong. By replacing the target with the script, we are bypassing the issue of screenreaders and portable devices getting confused with multiple windows. Ted From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Menzel Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation.. Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them. We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it. We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window). We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it). I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule. Regards, Gary On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href="" stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly.What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part ofit is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email orany attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by returnemail or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I'm not familiar with it being a 'web standard' not to open a new window for a link. Can someone enlighten me? Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
We have tested sites with both different behaviours on users and in most cases if the PDF would open in the same window the inexperienced users would accidentally close the window and as a result lose the website they were working with. It seems to be already in the users' minds that a different page (e.g. PDF file or a third-party website) will open in a new window. So, very often without even thinking much about it they close the window once they are done. And to lose your point in a website is very frustrating, in particular for inexperienced users: they have to start all over again, open a new browser window, might even have to search in Google for the site again and find their prior position in your website. I wish it was different and we could train the users to learn to use their options, but I think this will be very difficult. Opening links in new browser windows has been around for such a long time, most users have learned to accept it as a standard and in fact rely on this happening. So for my perspective: definitely open PDFs and other such documents in new windows (allows modem users to stop the download at any time and prevents users from accidentally closing their current website). Cheers, Andreas. From: Drake, Ted C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:24 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? I personally find it annoying to open a pdf document in the native window and having to wait for the reader to load. I usually right-click and open in a new window. However, I know some people expect that to happen and could lose their place if a bunch of windows are opened. I would use the javascript approach to avoid using target=_blank. This should avoid the complications of having PDA devices or screen readers attempting to open multiple windows. So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever. Thanks Ted Drake Web Collaboration Services Science Applications International Corporation 858.826.3856 / 858.826.3336 (fax) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I completely concur with Gary as I have these types of files open in a new window for the very reasons he stated. Additionally, I've had users report that they close the window thinking that they're exiting the document, but they're actually closing the browser. Respectfully, Mario There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation.. Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them. We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it. We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window). We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it). I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule. Regards, Gary On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/http://www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/http://www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ http://airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I fall in line with Gary. I do to, it just makes sense I use this: onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; instead of target=_blank. This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple popups. I'd use: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; As a side note, some blockers kill these popups. Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link. One can apply the behavior without any attribute other than href http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popups.asp Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM
Hi Jan, On 15/08/05, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some screen readers sit on top of browsers like IE. If IE has Flash embedded in it, and the Flash has been made accessible (see http://www.webaim.org/techniques/flash/), then it's exposed to the screen reader. The reason that screen readers should have access to Flash is that developers sometimes put important information in Flash movies, and people using screen readers should have access to it. I'm aware of all of this, I wasn't just sure whether those visitors usually install the flash plgugin. Sorry, I didn't mean to be patronising. It's an interesting question, but one that I have no data on. I only know two people that use screen readers, and both are very technical. They have Flash installed, but I've no idea if that's typical. I was under the impression that IE comes with the Flash plugin installed by default, but I don't know that for sure. I've never intentionally installed the Flash plugin, but it's there in IE. Although it would be interesting to have data on the numbers of people using assistive technology that also have the Flash plugin installed, if it turned out that only a small percentage installed Flash, it wouldn't detract me from wanting to embed Flash accessibly. Another thing that I'm sure you're aware of is that Flash could never truly be considered accessible, as it relies on Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) and IE to expose the accessibility features. This is obviously better than nothing at all, but falls a long way short of interoperability. WCAG 2.0 will introduce the concept of a baseline, but if people start defining baselines of, Best viewed in IE on a Windows Operating System, it will be just like 1997 all over again. Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Thierry, This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple popups. I'd use: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; As a side note, some blockers kill these popups. The window.open function returns true if successful, otherwise false. You could use the return value to determine whether or not you want to stop the href attribute being honoured to cater for blockers. onclick=return !window.open(this.href); Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement
background-image, text-indent=-1000em for button type=submit submit/button this works for all browsers except onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE. On 8/15/05, Tatham Oddie (Fuel Advance) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rex, Safari won't let you style at all. Take a look at what I did on www.whatcanido.com.au for the search fields top-left. Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rex Chung Sent: Monday, 15 August 2005 9:16 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement Hi all, Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with rollover states for submit buttons. I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with: 1. background image for input type=submit / but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 2. text-indent=-1000em for button type=submit submit/button but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE. I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with rollover states. Thanks! Rex. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Title: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi there, Could be that this discussion has drifted toward usability rather than accessibility. Accessibility considerations would be ensuring that users are advised of what will happened when they activate the link, either than the document would be opened in a new window, or that it will be downloaded. Also that opening a new window does not adversely effect users accessing a website with assistive technologies (screen readers, etc.). As to user expectation, it all depends on context. Some forms of content, such as blogs and forums are 'riddled' with pop-up windows, users exposed to such content quickly become familiar with pop-ups. As an interface design philosophy, ceding control to the user is your best bet. (This also extends to enabling text to be resized, fluid/elastic layout, etc.). In the case of pop-ups, only opening documents in new windows prevents an experienced user from controlling the browser behaviour. Indicating that a link will open in a new window is a good start, providing both a popup and non-popup link may be safer (see below). As an aside, some browsers have difficulty opening documents in new windows, when the document is a not a recognised content type. As a document like a PDF is not either a 'webpage' or inline content (such as a GIF or JPEG), the browser may only open a blank window (without downloading the document). REFERENCES Popup windows (Motive Glossary) Philosophy. Common reasons for using pop-ups, etc. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/popup.php WAI Checkpoint 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user. http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Gez Lemon wrote: Hi Thierry, This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple popups. I'd use: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; As a side note, some blockers kill these popups. The window.open function returns true if successful, otherwise false. You could use the return value to determine whether or not you want to stop the href attribute being honoured to cater for blockers. Hi Gez, I thought we had that discussion already ;) Best regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Applying css styles to html tag
Hi all, I've been looking around this list, W3C and other online sources, but can't find any info on applying styles to the html tag. I apologise if this has been covered on this list before, but is there any reference on css styling the html tag, and more specifically, how various browsers will render styles applied to html? Thanks in anticipation. -- Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
I use this: onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; instead of target=_blank. +1 for onclick=return !window.open(this.href) - successfully tested with some blockers etc. - better than returnig false everytime (nothing happens then if JS is enabled but the window can't be opened). Or maybe onclick=this.taget='_blank' ? By replacing the target with the script, we are bypassing the issue of screenreaders and portable devices getting confused with multiple windows. No, we're just moving the behavior to its appropriate place - the scipting. The UA can then have those features disabled, or ask the user etc., that's fine. It only shouldn't be in the document itself, where it does not belong. The usage certailny has to be well considered... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
On the whole, I'm very much in the 'user decide' camp. However, there is some argument for opening PDFs and other 'not-normally-browser-native' media types in new windows (citing the confusing ways in which plug ins behave). Personally, I like everything to download and be opened by a native application (especially PDFs!), but for coping with the default behaviour of opening the in-browser plug-in, I /might/ give consideration to new windows. The best option I can think of a 1am is to clearly offer a second 'open in new window' link, probably inserted onload using script. That way, the user can choose how to open it and if they pick the 'open' link that sits next to an 'open in new window' link, they are given some hint that the document will open in the SAME window, and thus get around some of the back button/close button confusion mentioned above. The other 'new window' situation I can think of relates to some 'web applications'. For example, on the site I maintain, we have a Reseller Locator that was designed with minimal header and footer to reduce clutter. Although a legacy app (so it might not be designed this way if we did it again) in this case it aids the usability of the application to have the reduced interface. However, this then removes a lot site navigation, so it makes more sense to open it in a new window. The critical, REALLY REALLY important thing I draw attention to when you have a system that (for whatever reason) is better suited to a new window: *make it as obvious as you can*. 1) Add the new window behaviour to the link using script *after* load. Have it open in the same, default window using a standard hyperlink without script, so as not to lock out customised browser configurations or scriptless fringe browsers. 2) Define a default size for the app! Obviously allow it to be resizeable, but if a new browser window appears that has exactly the same dimensions as the 'primary' window it was spawned from, the user is quite unlikely to twig that this is a different window at all. They'll be confused when they can't click 'back' to return to the original page. If, however, you give the child window a different (ideally smaller) size, then it will stand out from the main browser and the user won't be as confused when wanting to return to the first page. Still bad practice, I think, but those two rules are absolutely non-negotiable for me when making the best of an imperfect situation! Ben http://ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving
Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web standards? Not exactly, they're just one of many groups that benefit. They happen to benefit quite a lot, of course.. :) Standards benefit pretty much everyone, whether they realise it or not. Standards compliant sites are generally (not always) more lightweight (faster for the user), easier to update, rank better in search engines etc. There's also the consideration of making your sites future-robust (I never say future *proof* :)). Stick to standards and you have a better chance that they'll still work in the next version of browser X. If nothing else, you - as in the developer - should be a priority for going with standards, since it'll be you doing updates and fixing bugs :) Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :) Well I've often said that search engines are blind, deaf, mobility impaired users with scripting and plugins turned off (http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2005/06/search-engine-optimisation-is-new.html). So there are a couple of disabled users like Google that you probably want to cater to in some way :) More directly on your question though, there's enough out there in America alone that Microsoft decided they could make money from them. M$ commissioned a study which showed 57% of all computer users are likely to benefit in some way from accessible technology (http://www.microsoft.com/enable/research/). Figures vary, but they generally show a significant number of either disabled or people who benefit. With an ageing population in many countries, simple things like being able to resize text will become more important. cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi, We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? I view PDF, .MS Office documents etc as *non web content*. That is, they are not web pages and should not load in the browser as though they were web pages. However this view is mostly gut feel rather than based on any kind of statistics on what users think :) So anyway, in order of preference my approach to PDF is this: 1) Don't use PDF in the first place, if at all possible. 2) If you do use PDF, it's critical that the link is clearly marked as a PDF. 3) I choose between new window/same window based on context (particularly what I know about the target audience). But I do lean towards new windows. The reasons for choosing new window: 1) In IE, the PDF will hijack the browser and - very slowly - attempt to load the PDF content inside the frame. It won't launch a separate Acrobat window with the PDF, as it should. 2) You only get a cut-down set of interface options when trying to view the PDF within IE. 3) In my experience there's a reasonable risk that the IE/Acrobat/PDF mashup will break and crash the window. You lose the web page as well. 4) No matter what browser, as I said before PDFs are separate from the originating web content and should get a separate window. When launching any new window, I favour a simple target=_blank or the ALA method if users would benefit from more detailed control of the popup (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/popuplinks/). Basically my view there is that scripting should enhance the experience but the page should remain functional without it. Preferably it should function in much the same way, which is usually not possible but in this case it's entirely within our grasp. cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Applying css styles to html tag
any reference on css styling the html tag, and more specifically, how various browsers will render styles applied to html? Howdy. The styling is almost the same as the styling of body is - with the XML way of parsing XHTML files there's no more the magic behavior of body element like stretching to fill the viewport etc., so the only way to style the bakground etc. of the whote viewport is via html. (http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/03/19/dive-into-xml.html, http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html#xhtmldiff) The only catch is (surprise?) in IE. If you assign a background to both body and html, it gets screwed up. Compare these two examples in IE and modern browser: http://www.janbrasna.com/pub/pozadi01.htm http://www.janbrasna.com/pub/pozadi02.htm -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM
Sorry, I didn't mean to be patronising. Oh, I didn't feel it this way, I really appreciate it, I'm sorry if it sounded ungrateful. I've no idea if that's typical. I was under the impression that IE comes with the Flash plugin installed by default, but I don't know that for sure. I've never intentionally installed the Flash plugin, but it's there in IE. Ah, that's true, or at leas AFAIK. Although it would be interesting to have data on the numbers of people using assistive technology that also have the Flash plugin installed, if it turned out that only a small percentage installed Flash, it wouldn't detract me from wanting to embed Flash accessibly. Well, I don't think it detracts me. I'm only trying to avoid an extra markup. It might sound bad, but I'm replacing an h1 with the flash conent by the UFO. So I just want to avoid the situation, that an user of a screen reader (based on eg. IE, having flash an JS on - passing UFO checks) gets the useful h1 element (for him, when he could not see the visual presentation of its content provided in the flash object) removed and replaced by something he can't read. Thanks for input! -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
If I'm sure the PDF is intended for downloading, not for direct viewing in browser I force its download with headers (like Content-Type: application/x-download etc.) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
Patrick Lauke wrote: Well folks, here's a crazy idea: let's start some good discussions on the principles of web standards then. We need a bit of a catalyst to get things started. Any hot topics anybody's got at the moment? With the recent departure of a member who found this forum boring I thought I'd open up a discussion on html design. First, let me explain what I mean by html design. One of the tenets of web standards design is the separation of content and presentation. The benefits of this are often explained in terms of easy site updates, the ability to change the visual design by simply updating the CSS, and improved accessibility. All good stuff, and increasingly (as we know), web sites are produced where content is on one file (html) and the presentation is in another (CSS) Another idea related to web standards is that of semantic markup, where markup is used to give the document structure - after all, html is a structural language - and the ultimate goal is to create a web that is usable by both machines (semantic web) and people. So, when I use the term html design I am talking about how a web page is marked up, not only in terms of separating presentation and content, but how the document appears without reference to the visual design. By and large html design is not something happening in practice. Documents are marked up, and sometimes even the content refers to, the visual design. Document elements (both the tag and 'information chunk' variety) are placed in the source order according to how easy they are to position in the current visual design. Arguably, we need better browsers that can make the distinction between document content, navigation, and metadata, but isn't it about time we markup document's for the content without refering to the visual design, and separate out the navigation and other stuff a bit more? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
Great topic! I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was fiddling with w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt transformation and I finally saw what all the xml fuss was about. The content could be marked up meaningfully (according to the actual data) then xslt could lay out the content and css could style it. It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a total separation of content and presentation, with no server-side shenanigans needed to convert the xml content. As soon as there is consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The web equivalent of 'Zen' ;) In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's the outlying structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets in the way of true 'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a new word!). If we had a way (no, not frames) to semantically separate the nav / branding fluff from the actual core content we would be set. Thoughts welcome, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
Great topic! I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was fiddling with w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt transformation and I finally saw what all the xml fuss was about. The content could be marked up meaningfully (according to the actual data) then xslt could lay out the content and css could style it. It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a total separation of content and presentation, with no server-side shenanigans needed to convert the xml content. As soon as there is consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The web equivalent of 'Zen' ;) In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's the outlying structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets in the way of true 'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a new word!). If we had a way (no, not frames) to semantically separate the nav / branding fluff from the actual core content we would be set. Thoughts welcome, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
