RE: [Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft
Joe,br/br/What? Are you saying I couldn't be a Zen master? I'll have you know I read a book on Zen once. Well, ok - it was a pamphlet about the temple I was visiting. But it was very informative pamphlet. With pictures and all.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: GOD (Generator, Organizer Destroyer).
Dear Sir, We are in very sorry state. Nothing can help us. We are ruining, our days are counted. I also looking out for god to help us. If he is there I am very much happy. Why not look beyond Mahaperiva? Living in cage(prison) and not realised that your living in your own prison You will say let me live in this way. I am not here to change anyone, I am only sharing my perception. Let see what happens ahead? Best regards Suresh On 6/28/13, Rajaram Krishnamurthy keyar...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Suresh The moment I read sorry to contradict maha periaval I read no more because TAT TVAM ASI. K r IRS On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 10:25 PM, SURESH JAGADEESAN varam...@gmail.comwrote: Dear Sri.Rajaram, “He went through the statistics, about 15 children were born in 10 hospitals, 8 female and 7 male infants, out of which 3 children had malnutrition defects, 2 children were the first child of highly rich parents born in luxury hospitals, while 4 were children of coolie labourers who already had few children.* According to your concepts, all these children should be living exactly identical to each other, but not so practically, some are ill, some are healthy, some are born to rich parents, some are born to poor parents. Remember all children born in the same day, same longitude, latitude, you can't blame their horoscope which is going to be almost identical.” Sorry to contradict Mahaperiva. This is not a comparison at all. You cannot compere like this. The difference may not be there in the place of birth, and day of birth, but certainly differences are in Parents, the main factors by which children genes are decided, nutrition are decided . Horoscope is not a science, based on that one should or cannot predict one’s life. Horoscope is a psychological play. If an astrologer states “for this horoscope, this will be the life events”, then one starts believing it, that belief brings such life to him . Remember Buddha words “We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think” So don’t be so much enthusiastic that you have disproved me by quoting Mahaperiva words. I give you my own example: My children being autistic are not because of some papa done by me or my wife in the previous birth. MY children being autistic are because of my mistakes in the present life. Please note that fetus in the mother womb is affected by the thoughts of that mother. If she is happy, she is sending good vibrations and if she is sad, she is sending bad vibrations and if she is under stress, she is sending stressful vibrations to the fetus. These vibrations first of all affect the child’s brain, then the body. I hope most of the members agree on this point. Before my marriage, I liked a girl and wanted to marry her, but it was neither accepted by her nor accepted by my parents. So after I have seen my wife, I have written to her all my love affair honestly. (This is my mistake) My wife being very much sensitive did not liked to get married; she thought she is not my first love. But due to her mother’s compulsion only she agreed to marry me. But I liked her innocence. After marriage she keep asking me about my previous love affair. She always used to state that she is only my 2nd wife, since I have not loved her first. After 5 months of marriage, I went to ship. She could not allow me to go for ship. Since I have no money which is all spent due to marriage and for all those 6 months of stay at home, I have no choice but to join ship. This made her deeply stressed. She was thinking what if I call that previous lover and in case she now loves me, I may not stick with her (my wife) and go with my previous love. And also at my home the fight (usual) started between my Chithi and my sisters to some extent with my father. She liked my father, because my father used to appreciate her hard work, and for her good cooking. So she shifted to her home when I was in ship. I signed off from ship one week before her delivery. So these stresses affected my first child to be born with Autism. (better than my 2nd son) For my 2nd son, that time she most loved me so much, the trust has grown up. She used to state to her mother that for next 7 generations she wanted to be my wife ( for that there is a temple in Tamilnadu and there if you perform a pooja, this will happen and she wanted to do that) But when love has increased with me, more intolerance grown towards my chithi and my sisters. All because of money. Actually we don’t stay at home for long time. I used to take her with me on board. That time I was sailing with Indian company and hence salary was less. And I had home loan and other loans, so hardly any money left in hand for saving or even for luxury spending. So my wife told me, why not your brother support the family now. Ask him to pay for the family, after some time we can take over else ask him at least to share the house hold
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Attempts to deliberately steer the weather
The unseasonal snow that fell on Beijing for 11 hours on Sunday was the earliest and heaviest there has been for years. It was also, China claims, man-made. By the end of last month, farmland in the already dry north of China was suffering badly due to drought. So on Saturday night China's meteorologists fired 186 explosive rockets loaded with chemicals to seed clouds and encourage snow to fall. We won't miss any opportunity of artificial precipitation since Beijing is suffering from a lingering drought, Zhang Qiang, head of the Beijing Weather Modification Office, told state media. The US has tinkered with such cloud seeding to increase water flow from the Sierra Nevada mountains in California since the 1950s, but there remains widespread scientific sniffiness in the west at such attempts at weather control. The chemicals fired into the sky, usually dry ice or silver iodide, are supposed to provide a surface for water vapour to form liquid rain. But there is little evidence that it works – after all, how do investigating scientists know it would not have rained anyway? Such doubts have not stopped China claiming mastery over the clouds. Officials said the blue skies that brightened Beijing's parade to celebrate 60 years of communism last month were a result of the 18 cloud-seeding jets and 432 explosive rockets scrambled to empty the sky of rain beforehand. Last year, more than 1,000 rockets were fired to ensure a dry night for last year's Olympic opening ceremony. Only a handful of countries in the world could organise such large-scale, magic-like weather modification, Cui Lianqing, a senior meteorologist with the Chinese air force, told the Xinhua news agency after last month's parade. Magic or not, there is growing interest in such attempts to deliberately steer the weather, and on a much larger scale. Next spring, a group of the world's leading experts on climate change will gather in California to plan how it could be done as a way to tackle global warming, and by whom. The ideas, some of which, similar to cloud-seeding, involve firing massive amounts of chemicals into the atmosphere, can sound far-fetched, but they are racing up the agenda as pessimism grows about the likely course of global warming. As interest grows, so does concern about whether such techniques, known as geoengineering, could be developed and unleashed by a single nation, or even a wealthy individual, without wide international approval. What will happen when Richard Branson decides he really does want to save the planet? asks one climate expert. If China thinks it can make cloud seeding work, then what about geoengineering? If climate change turns ugly, then many countries will start looking at desperate measures, says David Victor, an energy policy expert at Stanford University and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Logic points to a big risk of unilateral geoengineering. Unlike controlling emissions, which requires collective action, most highly capable nations could deploy geoengineering systems on their own. -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen][Anger][Oh! I see now!] Re: moderation
Thanks! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Bill, Such as this one. Please note the subject line. JM On 6/27/2013 7:05 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, So how do you insert these tags? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ ï¼ËJMJMï¼Ⱐchan.jmjm@ wrote: Hi Bill, As per Buddha's teaching, when we are attached to form, five poison arises. They are [greed], [anger], [delusion], [arrogance], [suspicion]. Buddha also remind us to avoid the four notions. They are notions of [self],[human][sentient being],[death]. Then Buddha asked us to drop the [attachment to self] and [attachment to dharma]. These are fundamental practices of Chan. I see them rampant through out Zen Forum. These are tags we can insert into subject line. So that we all can learn and be awakened from them. Because moderation disables our ability to encounter these issues, while these are the issues we can grow from. These are part of our practice and necessary mirrors for each of us to reflect from. Let me know if you have more questions. JM On 6/27/2013 1:33 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, Interesting suggestion. I guess it's the new e-version of 'The Scarlet Letter'. I'm not sure what 'tagging' is or how to do it, but I will discuss this with Edgar and let everyone know our decision. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, èæúÃ¥æââ¢Ã§Ã²Ã¾Ã¦ÃÅà ½ ïüÃâ JMJMïüââ¬Â° chan.jmjm@ wrote: Dear Edgar Bill, moderators, Chan is ALL, which means all attachments, delusions, angers are part of Chan. We learn and wake up from them. These are our home work. These are part of our everyday practice. The sixth Patriarch said, Dharma is in the secular world. Buddha is enlightened inside the secular world. Instead of moderation, may I suggest [tagging]. When anyone is lost in form, and the five poisons or the discrimination mind arises, you tag them with [labels] in the subject line. This way everyone can learn and be awakened from them. With palms together, JM Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, Mike, Suresh, et al... I think this is just the same old conundrum associated with Dependent Arising vs. Independent Existence (Buddhism) and Predestination vs. Free Will (Christian). I'm staying out of this discussion for the most part because as most of you know already I think 'karma' is a delusion. (I'm using the term 'delusion' now instead of 'illusion' but it's the same thing.) Just plain old vanilla cause-and-effect is hard enough to swallow without adding moralistic or good/bad riders onto it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saá¹sÄra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Dear Joe, Thanks for the reply. I will read about Yogacara Buddhist philosophy. Then come back to you. Brgds Suresh --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, Your approach seems good, and practical. I suppose there is a large weight of comfort in shared tradition, and in communal acceptance of outcomes, due to the understanding of karma that people hold. Perhaps comfort is not nearly the correct word, in the dire circumstances, however. In the Zen Buddhist tradition, although there is also an acceptance of an understanding of karma, one (a Person, a Practitioner; a Culture; a Country; or, a World!) must still work for a changed outcome, and not simply accept where karma has BROUGHT you, up to today. In other words, one must (1.) admit the problem; (2.) take responsibility; and (3.) one must work devotedly. For example, even if one's personal karma has been very *GOOD* -- and allowed you to be born as a Human Being, and further, allowed you to find the traces to Zen Buddhism so that you might practice with a good teacher, and sangha -- nonetheless, one must still indeed practice, NOW. In other words, even GOOD karma CANNOT BREAK NEW GROUND. One must stand on the ground of one's good karma and break new ground for oneself, and for all Beings. Well, that is the Mahayana Buddhist view, and program -- of which Zen Buddhism partakes. By the way, there is no conflict or inconsistency in Zen Buddhism between the notion of the non-existence of a personal self, and yet the notion of a reincarnation due to karma, or a survival of karma. This is especially easy to see however, in the karma of a Collective, such as a Culture, a Country, or a World. Often, prior acts of a Tribe or a Culture come to define it, and give it a lasting character, which lasts and evolves a very long time, for tens or hundreds of generations. And the acts of a Country do the same. Ditto, a World (but your view has to be very broad, there to see this). For the karma of an Individual, the Zen Buddhist understanding is taken and shared from Yogacara Buddhism, in which this karma is stored in the Alaya Vijnana. A brilliantly successful model! But Yogacara is not just a Philosophical system: it is (was...) also a school of Practice. Its teaching and transmission lineages have all died out, however. The way you summarize and describe your view here is very clear, and very accessible. It has considerable power. I hope you will have good success communicating the view at your other forums, also. I think there is much respect in India for Science and technology, and more and more with time, and people not only understand karma, but also the mechanisms of general cause and effect. Perhaps a more scientific view of karma can be found in Yogacara Buddhist philosophy: will you take a look at it? You may be able to incorporate a bit of it, and its terminology, in your posts to traditional Hindus. I don't know if this will help! It seems as if you have a good facility with plain ordinary language, anyway. Still, the Yogacara model might interest you personally. Continued good success!, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Suresh varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, I understand your concern. The members of other forum describe that catastrophe as order of god or fate or Karma. I oppose as it is nothing to do with god, fate or Karma, it is science's cause and effect such as global warming and inadequate disaster management in the country and Carelessness of administrators. I said, because of karma theory, people become lazy to do anything, because all is destined to happen even you do whatever to prevent. I want to remove that attitude and people should feel responsible for better living in this world, hence they have to work hard, the unknown god will not work for them. This is what the whole emphasis is Best regards Suresh Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling the weather. We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most complex scientific subject. The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!! Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones! Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again. YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the most? Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness? Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore, you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key factor in creating such storms in the first place. ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms? The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell you how much capability has been built into the newly created power transmission station in remote Alaska. These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into the ionosphere in tremendous quantities. The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere -- the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere. Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper atmosphere'. After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate our bodies, the ground and the oceans. [Angels Don't Play This HAARP] Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. .. . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed, in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore accomplished by the prior art ... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar facilities. HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into practice. Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down. The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they desired. In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can create all kinds of storms like hurricanes, thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought. In NEWS1198, U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real, we report news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities without actually coming on to land to create devastation. This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies. Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire. And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on shore. Why are American scientists allowing extensive damage and lives lost to recent unprecedented storms, since they have the capability to keep these storms away from us? Doesn't our own American Government have our best interests at heart? Keep that thought in mind as we examine still more aspects of this HAARP technology that is pouring such enormous quantities of energy into our upper atmosphere. Researches quickly found that this technology could be used in ways other than just to control the weather. They discovered they had stumbled upon a weapon which could be used most effectively, to destroy, destroy, and destroy some more, with the vast majority of the peoples of the world
[Zen] Karma analysed.
This is not from me, but for discussing I am posting this, This is Indian version of karma Suresh Karma analysed. As per Bhagavadgita ch 4, Karma means the outward actions done in the pursuit of swadharma. Vikarma means total involvement of the mind therein. We may bow to somebody, but that outward action is meaningless without inner humility in the mind. There should be unity between the inner and the outer. I may worship the image of the Lord; but that act is worthless if it is not accompanied with devotion. In the absence of devotion, the idol will just be a piece of stone and so shall I; and the worship will only mean that a stone is facing a stone! Desireless, selfless karmayoga is attained only when outward actions are complemented with the inward action of the purification of mind. When vikarma is united with karma, karma attains a divine radiance. Vikarma, combined with karma, results in a powerful explosion of energy, and then akarma is produced. A big log of wood, when burnt, turns into just a handful of harmless ash. In the same way karma, ignited by vikarma, ends up in producing akarma. NOW SOME FUNDAMENTALS:- WHAT IS KARMA ?:-. KARMA means work, profession, duty. It means, action which binds one to samsaara. It can be accomplished by body, speech or by mind.(kaayika, vaachika and maanasa). It can also be classified as Sanchita(accumulated), prarabda (bearing fruits in this life) and aagaami (being performed now). The effect of karmas of one life cannot be exhausted in that life only. Hence punarjanma. Jnaana or realisation of one's nature as the immortal soul destroys sanchita karma and make aagaami incapable of producing results. However, praarabda karma has to be exhausted only by experiencing it. Karma is of two kinds- nishiddha karma(prohibited) and vihita karma (duty to be performed). The vihita karma could be either Kaamya karma, nitya karma and naimitthika karma- desire motivated, daily duties, and occasional. Karmas may also be classified according to their nature.-good or bad. Actions without being tainted by selfish motives are called saatvika. If they are mixed with likes and dislikes, they could be raajasika. If motivated by evil designs, they are taamasika. As long as we identify ourselves with the body-mind complex we undergo constantly the transmigration brought out by the Karmas. SOOTHASAMHITHA describes four kinds of Moksha: SAALOKYA - living in the same world as God. SAAROOPYA- having a similar form as God. SAAMEEPYA- living near God. SAAYUJYA- getting identified with God. Thaittareeya samhitha, Eithareya brahmana, Brihadaaranyaka and Chaandogya Upanishads also contain these ideas. Destruction of Ignorance through Knowledge of the self is the sure way to MokSha. But there are others who advocate nishkaama karma or Bhakti as the means to attain moksha. PRAARABDA KARMAS. The karmas which have already started giving their results are the praarabda karmas. It is these which have caused the present birth. Praarabda karmas also decide on the duration of space as well as various experiences - good or bad. Like an arrow once released cannot be taken back, even jeevanmuktas are seen to suffer these effects. Bhagavadgita third chapter:- After goading Arjuna for action, the Lord puts it to him to convert bondage creating karma to bondage breaking karma yoga. He also emphasizes on the supremacy of JNANA – the spiritual illumination. Both the paths-karma and Jnana-are conducive to the knowledge of the Self. Sree Ramakrishna says that we should make a knot of the fact that the goal of life is to merge in Godhood (in a corner of your angavastra) and then plunge in the discharge of our duties. The three gunas-satva, raja and tama –are always in a flux. While entangled in prakriti, it is impossible to renounce karma. As long as we are suffering from the disease of ignorance, we cannot go out of the hospital of Prakriti. The treatment is Karma and the moment we are cured with the knowledge of the Self, we are discharged from the hospital of Prakriti. Karma by itself is neither good nor bad. It is the motive behind it that makes it bad or good. When the ego gets obliterated, the action becomes sacred. Ego can be compared to an onion. If we go on peeling the skin of the onion one by one, nothing is left in the end!! Thoughts, words and deeds have to be directed towards the good of the world and to the glory of the Lord. All creatures are to be respected as various manifestations of the Lord Narayana. When any work is performed with the right frame of mind, it becomes a Yagnya. . -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you
[Zen] HAARP: Weapon of Mass Destruction [1 Attachment]
*[Attachment(s) from SURESH JAGADEESAN included below] Dear all, Read attached article on HAARP, very interesting to learn Below is from wikipedia The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) is an ionospheric research program jointly funded by the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Navy, the University of Alaska, and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).[1] Designed and built by BAE Advanced Technologies (BAEAT), its purpose is to analyze the ionosphere and investigate the potential for developing ionospheric enhancement technology for radio communications and surveillance.[2] The HAARP program operates a major sub-arctic facility, named the HAARP Research Station, on an Air Force–owned site near Gakona, Alaska. The most prominent instrument at the HAARP Station is the Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI), a high-power radio frequency transmitter facility operating in the high frequency (HF) band. The IRI is used to temporarily excite a limited area of the Ionosphere. Other instruments, such as a VHF and a UHF radar, a fluxgate magnetometer, a digisonde, and an induction magnetometer, are used to study the physical processes that occur in the excited region. Work on the HAARP Station began in 1993. The current working IRI was completed in 2007, and its prime contractor was BAE Systems Advanced Technologies.[1] As of 2008, HAARP had incurred around $250 million in tax-funded construction and operating costs. HAARP has been blamed by conspiracy theorists for a range of events, including numerous natural disasters. Commentators and scientists say that proponents of these theories are uninformed.[3][4] -- Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738 *Attachment(s) from SURESH JAGADEESAN: * 1 of 1 File(s) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/attachments/folder/1029219972/item/list * tms_article_25570.pdf Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
Suresh, and Bill, Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum. Bill these posts are OT don't you think? Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling the weather. We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most complex scientific subject. The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!! Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones! Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again. YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the most? Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness? Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore, you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key factor in creating such storms in the first place. ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms? The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell you how much capability has been built into the newly created power transmission station in remote Alaska. These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into the ionosphere in tremendous quantities. The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere -- the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere. Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper atmosphere'. After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate our bodies, the ground and the oceans. [Angels Don't Play This HAARP] Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. .. . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed, in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore accomplished by the prior art ... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar facilities. HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into practice. Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down. The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they desired. In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can create all kinds of storms like hurricanes, thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought. In NEWS1198, U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real, we report news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities without actually coming on to land to create devastation. This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies. Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire. And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on shore. Why are American scientists allowing extensive damage and lives lost to recent unprecedented storms, since they have the capability to keep these storms away from us? Doesn't our own American Government have our best interests at heart? Keep that thought in mind as we examine still more aspects of this HAARP technology that is pouring such enormous quantities of energy into our upper
Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
Hi Edgar, Bill, I think so... Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:45:13 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE Suresh, and Bill, Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum. Bill these posts are OT don't you think? Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling the weather. We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most complex scientific subject. The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!! Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones! Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again. YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the most? Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness? Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore, you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key factor in creating such storms in the first place. ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms? The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell you how much capability has been built into the newly created power transmission station in remote Alaska. These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into the ionosphere in tremendous quantities. The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere -- the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere. Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper atmosphere'. After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate our bodies, the ground and the oceans. [Angels Don't Play This HAARP] Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. .. . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed, in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore accomplished by the prior art ... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar facilities. HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into practice. Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down. The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they desired. In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can create all kinds of storms like hurricanes, thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought. In NEWS1198, U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real, we report news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities without actually coming on to land to create devastation. This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies. Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire. And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on shore. Why are American scientists allowing extensive damage and lives lost to recent
Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
Suresh, Could you please end this thread on our Zen forum. It's Off topic. Additional posts on this thread may result in moderation of your posts Thanks, Edgar co-moderator of the group On Jun 28, 2013, at 7:49 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Edgar, Bill, I think so... Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 07:45:13 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE Suresh, and Bill, Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum. Bill these posts are OT don't you think? Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling the weather. We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most complex scientific subject. The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!! Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones! Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again. YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the most? Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness? Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore, you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key factor in creating such storms in the first place. ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms? The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell you how much capability has been built into the newly created power transmission station in remote Alaska. These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into the ionosphere in tremendous quantities. The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere -- the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere. Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper atmosphere'. After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate our bodies, the ground and the oceans. [Angels Don't Play This HAARP] Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. .. . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed, in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore accomplished by the prior art ... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar facilities. HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into practice. Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down. The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they desired. In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can create all kinds of storms like hurricanes, thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought. In NEWS1198, U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real, we report news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities without actually coming on to land to create devastation. This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies. Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire. And, they certainly can be
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is nonsense, but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's what I also witness.br/br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and effect Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is nonsense, but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's what I also witness. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saá¹sÄra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
Edgar and Suresh, Yes, I agree it is technically off-topic (OT), but as long as it doesn't get drug out too far a post like this now and then is okay with me. But is is off-topic. I didn't read it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Suresh, and Bill, Though of some personal interest to me this thread is OT on this forum. Bill these posts are OT don't you think? Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:11 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling the weather. We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most complex scientific subject. The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!! Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones! Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again. YOU ARE NOW ON THE CUTTING EDGE The idea behind Weather Control is simple, when you think about it simply. When you see and experience a strong thunderstorm, with a lot of lightening and thunder, what fact about this storm strikes you the most? Are you not impressed by the powerful display of energy that you witness? Energy is the primary ingredient behind nature's storms. Therefore, you must believe that, just perhaps, if energy is the most dominant outward factor in all kinds of storms, then energy might be the key factor in creating such storms in the first place. ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY ENERGY So, you ask, how much energy is required to create, and then direct, storms? The answer to that question depends upon many factors, but let us tell you how much capability has been built into the newly created power transmission station in remote Alaska. These power transmission towers are not your typical towers, as they are designed to generate power in such a way that it is beamed up into the ionosphere in tremendous quantities. The $30 million [Pentagon] project, euphemistically named HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is made to beam more than 1.7 gigawatts (billion watts) of radiated power into the ionosphere -- the electrically charged layer above Earth's atmosphere. Put simply, the apparatus is a reversal of a radio telescope -- just transmitting instead of receiving. It will 'boil the upper atmosphere'. After [heating] and disturbing the ionosphere, the radiations will bounce back onto the earth in for form of long waves which penetrate our bodies, the ground and the oceans. [Angels Don't Play This HAARP] Let us allow Dr. Begich explain this concept. .. . this invention provides the ability to put unprecedented amounts of power in the Earth's atmosphere at strategic locations and to maintain the power injection level, particularly if random pulsing is employed, in a manner far more precise and better controlled than heretofore accomplished by the prior art ... the goal is to learn how to manipulate the ionosphere on a more grand scale than the the Soviet Union could do with its similar facilities. HAARP would be the largest ionospheric heater in the world, located in a latitude most conducive to putting Eastlund's invention into practice. Furthermore, from this northern latitude, the energy could be aimed into the ionosphere so that it would bounce back down to the earth so it would come down wherever the scientists wanted it to come down. The secret was to learn how and where to aim it to hit the earth where they wanted it to hit, creating the type of disaster or weather they desired. In a nutshell, this is the nucleus of the expertise just recently acquired to control the weather. By pouring measured energy that has been focussed into certain parts of the ionosphere, scientists can create all kinds of storms like hurricanes, thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes, and drought. In NEWS1198, U.N. Treaty Proves Weather Control Is Real, we report news articles that Malaysia actually contracted with a Russian Weather Modification company to create a hurricane that would be directed close enough to clear the smoke and smog from Malaysia's cities without actually coming on to land to create devastation. This Russian company delivered, and Malaysia had clear skies. Our information also tells us that, not only can hurricanes be created, they can be dismantled should scientists so desire. And, they certainly can be driven on the ocean much like we drive our cars on roadways. Therefore, one has to ask why American scientists have allowed unprecedented hurricanes, like Andrew, to ever come on shore.
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saá¹sÄra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha wanted to find out how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. His first premise was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The actual are the laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit at the feet of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers to his questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body sensations changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe does. These changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - everything in the body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every change in the body is caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. Craving for things we don't have and want and aversion for the things we have, but don't want. The (moral) action we take to satisfy our desires is what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught and I see no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and observed.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever -- to use the word crazy when referring to a religion. Such loose talk is the cause of trouble. You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, but you are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when you express them. Please desist in that. thanks --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft
Mike, I'm just not qualified to nominate you as a Zen master. I am an un-transmitted Dharma Teacher in Sheng Yen's line, and still in training the next few years in USA and Taiwan in the details of running Ch'an retreat (Sesshin), and teaching to students. I feel qualified to urge you and Chris to moderate, here, because I've seen both your civility, smarts, evidence of practice, and compassion, displayed on these boards. Chris is right, though, that writings, even here, do not constitute knowing a person. Kudos. To be a Zen master, Mike, you'll need transmission from your Zen teacher. It's an assent that the Apprentice Teacher is now a Journeyman Teacher, and an introduction and announcement to the world by the established teacher that this new teacher can do good work, is a willing member of the lineage, and is available to serve as a teacher. So it's been, for 87 generations. best!, --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, What? Are you saying I couldn't be a Zen master? I'll have you know I read a book on Zen once. Well, ok - it was a pamphlet about the temple I was visiting. But it was very informative pamphlet. With pictures and all. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, OK, then the only disagreement is that I maintain your 'delusions' are PART of reality since I define reality as everything that exists without exception and you think delusions are NOT part of reality... Without that additional step you don't realize the meaning of 'mountains are mountains again'. That's the realization that the illusions (delusions) are in fact the true nature of mountains but only as realized as the illusions they are Of course the true nature of mountains like everything is the formless Buddha Nature but that manifests as all the illusory forms, therefore the illusory forms are form manifestations of Buddha Nature rather than something standing apart from it. Without this realization you are stuck in the permanent dualism of a world consisting of Buddha Nature and of illusory forms. The true understanding is the non-dualistic realization that illusory forms manifest Buddha Nature and thus they are part of Buddha Nature Ah well, I don't expect you to get this but I keep trying... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Dear Suresh, Yogacara is also referred to as the Consciousness-Only School, and sometimes as Mind-Only. It is based on the Eight Consciousnesses. Yogacara is still alive, but it has been absorbed into other Schools, either entirely, or just in bits and pieces. Zen Buddhism has absorbed some. But Zen Buddhism really does not rely on any fixed Dharma. Yet, if Zen Buddhism has *any* philosophy, it seems to be both Yogacara, and Madhyamika, importantly. Yogacara looks at Mind from the point of view of Delusion. Madhyamika looks at Mind from the point of view of Enlightenment, and Emptiness. To me it seems wonderful and wholesome that Zen Buddhism embraces, encompasses, and yet transcends BOTH these views, ...which are philosophies that individually seem SO different viewed just on their own. With best regards, --Joe Suresh varamtha@... wrote: Dear Joe, Thanks for the reply. I will read about Yogacara Buddhist philosophy. Then come back to you. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, Agreed. So? That has nothing to do with the naive Buddhist Hindu view of karma as doing good you'll get good in return and vice versa... Argue your point with Bill. He's the one that claims it's not true... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:16 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha wanted to find out how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. His first premise was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The actual are the laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit at the feet of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers to his questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body sensations changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe does. These changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - everything in the body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every change in the body is caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. Craving for things we don't have and want and aversion for the things we have, but don't want. The (moral) action we take to satisfy our desires is what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught and I see no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and observed. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:29:08 PM Mike, You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and effect Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is nonsense, but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's what I also witness. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, All religions are CRAZY. They are delusional nonsense long refuted by science. Zen is revealing the truth about everything. It's not coddling organized religion but pointing out it's an impediment to realization.. Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:18 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever -- to use the word crazy when referring to a religion. Such loose talk is the cause of trouble. You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, but you are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when you express them. Please desist in that. thanks --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven.
[Zen] Re: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE
Suresh, - CAUTION -- OFF-ZEN-TOPIC REPLY, and FACTUAL DATA-DUMP - Mr. Begich is a bit of an alarmist, and has been so on this matter for two decades. I think there is a large bit of hoaxing involved. Also, glaringly, the figure quoted for the power radiated by the antenna array is incorrect. It is not GigaWatts. The HAARP station is isolated in wilderness, and not connected to the electrical power grid. A diesel-powered generator is installed on-site to supply power for all its operations, including living quarters and control-room, and transmitter. The capacity of that generator was upgraded last year, from one MegaWatt to TWO MegaWatts. There are different ways to use the antenna array, and different ways to calculate the EFFECTIVE RADIATED POWER of the array at the height of the ionospheric layer that the experimenters wish to excite. But of course the TOTAL Radiated Power cannot exceed the power generated by the generator. So, the total radiated power is ALWAYS LESS THAN the power available. That is, the total power is less than two MegaWatts. Of course, in daylight hours, Sunlight pours through the ionosphere, with a power-density of about 1 kiloWatt per square meter. Granted, this is not in the radio-wave part of the spectrum, but is a rather higher energy density than the HAARP array can muster. A square of ionosphere just 45 meters on a side receives more energy in the form of Sunlight than the 2 MegaWatt HAARP generator can generate. Well, a brief reply. I encourage you not to worry! Note that the wording and phraseology used in the article is alarmist. This is not journalism; it is propaganda. Rest easy, HAARP had nothingto do, and can have nothing to do, with India's flooding. --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: A TERRIFYING LOOK AT THE CONTROL OF WEATHER WARFARE -- A LOOK AT HAARP We shall take a basic look at the technology involved in controlling the weather. We shall try to take a simple look so you can understand a most complex scientific subject. The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!, Will you please moderate this fellow? His continued blatant assertions are offensive and inappropriate in a civil forum. w/ thanks!, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, All religions are CRAZY. They are delusional nonsense long refuted by science. Zen is revealing the truth about everything. It's not coddling organized religion but pointing out it's an impediment to realization.. Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:18 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever -- to use the word crazy when referring to a religion. Such loose talk is the cause of trouble. You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, but you are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when you express them. Please desist in that. thanks --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Hi Edgar Mike, Based on my witness, the Buddhist karma is slightly different from cause and effect. Buddist karma is inherited via our subconsciousness. It can be cleansed as per Mike's sutra quotations. In other words, our subconsciousness causes us to act, often beyond the control of our logical mind. That's what Buddhist Karma is referring to. While phenomena of nature occurs based on cause and effect without human intervention. I have witness karma cleansing also via my enlightened Master. JM On 6/28/2013 12:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible. Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research.. He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net) Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com) In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92] (Wiki) The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90] Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad *From: * Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; *To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage *Sent: * Thu, Jun 27, 2013 1:07:05 PM Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven. Edgar On Jun 27, 2013, at 5:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Suresh, Hope you don't mind me jumping in here? Someone has the wrong understanding of karma. At least the karma a taught by Buddha. Karma is not the same as a fatalistic or determinative belief. Karma can be changed at anytime if the right actions/thoughts are performed. Also, it is wrong to judge another's circumstances as a result of good or bad karma - we can only workout are own. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad *From: * Suresh varam...@gmail.com; *To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: * [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage *Sent: * Thu, Jun 27, 2013 7:00:56 AM Dear Joe, I understand your concern. The members of other forum describe that catastrophe as order of god or fate or Karma. I oppose as it is nothing to do with god, fate or Karma, it is science's cause and effect such as global warming and inadequate disaster management in the country and Carelessness of administrators. I said, because of karma theory, people become lazy to do anything, because all is destined to happen even you do whatever to prevent. I want to remove that attitude and people should feel responsible for better living in this world, hence they have to work hard, the unknown god will not work for them. This is what the whole emphasis is Best regards Suresh --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, I'm sorry, and have to admit, I am lost. I ask your help. The considerations in your transferred post go well beyond my little knowledge of Hindu scripture and tradition. And because I lack the context of the original motivation for your posting, I don't feel enthusiastic to delve deeply into this as a quite independent researcher. Perhaps if you were to summarize your concerns in a paragraph, or two, in simple terms, I might grasp it. Others here, might, too. But to be
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
PS: I doubt Jesus' feelings will be hurt by anything I say about the religion founded in his name that has little to do with him since he's been dead for some 2000 years. But if he was alive I suspect he'd be agreeing with me rather than Joe... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: Joe, Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, (and Bill!), Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of them quiet -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names. Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans. Please realize this. Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please. For the good of this Forum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, I think you indeed do well to distinguish that there are various and varying conceptions and operational views of karma in different (Wisdom-) traditions, Conceptions and views differ also in the different sects, and sub-sects, of traditions. Simply, karma originally means action, not results of action. There are three kinds of action: those of body, speech, and mind. Actions -- those actions -- have results. Positive actions create positive results; negative actions create negative results; neutral actions create neutral results. This is why moment-by-moment behavior is so important (so influential on ourselves and others). We create the conditions of our lives by what we do. For the clarification of my view of this, I am indebted to The Rev. Nonin, Roshi; Abbot and Head Teacher of Nebraska Zen Canter / Heartland Temple, Omaha, NE, USA; a Soto Zen Buddhist Priest and Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi. Katagiriri Roshi (1928 - 1990) was a first-generation Japanese Soto Priest in USA, Founder and Abbot of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center, Minneapolis, MN, USA. --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net) Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com) In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki) The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in samsara. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Stop your carping and reread the rules... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, (and Bill!), Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of them quiet -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names. Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans. Please realize this. Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please. For the good of this Forum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Stop your carping and reread the rules... The moderators have agreed on the rules and it's not up to you to change them. A single complaint is OK, but incessant gripping on the same issue is off topic and has nothing to do with zen.. Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, (and Bill!), Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of them quiet -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names. Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans. Please realize this. Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please. For the good of this Forum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft
Joe, Changing a thread title is fine and is encouraged when the poster wants to transition to a new thread. Nothing wrong with it at all. On the other hand snipping does destroy the integrity of threads and is deprecated. You are the only poster here that does it. That being said I don't think the moderators want to nit pick every aspect of how members choose to post. The form of posts should pretty much be left up to individual posters and excessive complaints about other's posting styles are off topic and a distraction... Edgar co-moderator On Jun 26, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Joe wrote: Bill!, Edgar, One of the weak characteristics of the YAHOO! Zen Forum is caused by the excess liberty that some posters take with changing the title of a thread. I see this as an extreme NEGATIVE. It destroys the integrity of a thread, where by integrity I do not mean some vague moral advantage, but the integral-completeness and dedication of a topic as begun by the OP (original poster). When the title of a thread keeps changing, so does the topic. This constant morphing invites off-topic posting, because, well, there *IS* no topic, anymore. Could you two Moderators, and Owner, please, in your draft of the policy for behavior on Zen Forum, include some guideline(s) about thread-titles, and please encourage members not to change them. It's my feeling that, once a thread has begun under one title by the OP, it should NEVER be changed. This encourages good and due concentration on the topic of the thread, and helps to eliminate large swings away from the topic, and of Zen, in general. Too many posts are too chatty, and not devoted to ANY thread title, original, or changed. One reason is the willy-nilly changing of thread titles: Leave them alone! Keeping the integrity of a thread also allows the thread to be researched reliably on the Website, where all posts go to enjoy immortality. Not on YAHOO!, but other board software makes it more obvious how this virtue of thread integrity is actually valuable: you can see all the thread titles of current activity, and can join or avoid certain ones. And you can be sure the discussion will be on-topic, in any thread. On our Zen Forum, here, it seems that anything goes, in any thread, because focus is *diffused* by posters obsessively/excessively/incessantly changing the subject, AND changing the thread title. What we get is mush. Mush in, mush out. This is a major weakness thus far of this board, and a causative origin of some of its wild meanderings, and incivilities. When threads become co-opted by others and thus over-personalized, things become personal, and off-topic. Let posters begin NEW threads if they like, and not sponge-off of concentrated, dedicated ones. I hope you can see a way to discourage the changing of thread titles in the guidelines of any draft- and adopted-Posting/Replying policy. thanks! --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: This is the policy Edgar, Al and I have come up with regarding future Posts and Replies. Please review it and return comments preferably publicly or privately if you must to Edgar or me. *** [snip]
[Zen] WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?:
Dear all, This is not my article, but since it compares Buddha with Hindu god I thought let us see your view. Best regards Suresh WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?: The history of Sanatana dharma practically begins with the Rigveda. Here, we have the astonishing record of the progress of the mind from worship of the forces of Nature like fire, wind, rain etc., to the realization of the Absolute spirit (Brahman). In this progress we see the trail of broken idols, overthrown divinities and abandoned faiths. Gods shaded away giving place to others. Man realized that the truth is “that being the one which the wise call by various names as Agni, Yama and Maatarishvan”. The Universal order was supposed to be maintained by sacrifices (Yajna). The Universe itself was supposed to be a result of a Yajna by Gods (Purusha sookata). Yajna became the means and Rita (cosmic order) the end. This Yajna became so important in the later years and was made complex and varied during the period of the brahmanas. Sacrificial religion of a mechanical and soulless kind started prevailing. It is in this period that the concepts of Deva-Pitr-Rishi runas, varnaashrama dharma, swarga and naraka etc., developed. Priests became very powerful. After this period of decadence, the renaissance represented by the Upanishads came up. All later thoughts are the result of these Upanishads. Bhagavadgita is the essence of these Upanishads and Brahma sootras is a thread which binds together all the upanishadic flowers. It is this period when the foundations of Sanatana Dharma were firmly laid. Brahman, Atman, Moksha, Samsaara, Karma, Upaasana and Jnaana became important and the Gods receded to the background. Priests were subordinated and Yajnaas were looked down upon. Dyaana (contemplation) took the place of worship. Jnaana takes the place of Yajna. Unfortunately after some time, the old sacrifices, mechanical rites and old beliefs in gods resurfaced with greater vigour and varnaashrama dharma was made tighter. The teachings of the Upanishads were ignored and orthodoxy of the priests became more stringent. Grihya sootras became more important than the shrouta sootras. It is this period which gave rise to a number of charlatans who aped the seers of the Upanishads and propagated fantastic theories of their own and fought between themselves which naturally confused the minds of the common people. There was a mere babel of tongues and it was an age of speculative chaos. True religion, morality etc., were lost and meaningless rites, superstitions etc., took roots. It was in this period that the Buddhaavataara took place. Buddhism can be considered as a continuation of the deepest intuitions of the Upanishadic Rishis. It retained the ethical ideals of the religion, but repudiated the authority of the Vedas and ascendance of the priests. Buddha did not break away from the religious tradition of the country. According to Rhys Davids, “HE WAS BORN AND BROUGHT UP AND LIVED AND DIED A HINDU”. “He can be considered as the greatest and the wisest and the best of the Hindus” (see Buddhism pp 83-85). Dr Radhakrishnan in his “Indian philosophy” Volume I pp 676-694 has given a detailed comparison between the Upanishadic religion and Buddhism. Let us see the similarities between the teachings of Buddha and those of the Upanishads. 1. Both do not accept the authority of any text (Vedas) and insist on personal experience. 2. Both have contempt for ritualism and sacrifices. 3. Both say that the absolute reality (called Brahman by sanatanis and Dhrma by Buddhists) cannot be comprehended by the intellect. 4. Both agree that Moksha or Nirvana, the state of changeless reality alone peace for the mind of man. 5. Both agree that this reality can be reached only through renunciation, meditation and realization of the oneness of all life. 6. Both consider the world and the individual self as impermanent. 7. Both believe in the law of rebirth and Karma. Buddha’s teaching was restricted to the four truths- there is suffering in the world, there is a cause for it, it can be removed and there is a way for that end. He believed in the eight way path for emancipation- right belief, right aim, right speech, right action, right living right effort , right mindfulness and right contemplation. These lead to Nirvaana. Buddha was more interested in providing remedy for the ills of life than in discussing metaphysical questions. His terminology has great similarity with that of the Upanishads. He discouraged putting questions which had no bearing on the practical life. His avataara can be considered as the second renaissance of the Sanatana dharma and that is how he was considered as an incarnation of Vishnu. Corruption in Buddhism:- How the religion started by him deteriorated is another story. If what Buddha tought was retained in its pristime glory, Buddhism would have remained a supplement to the mystical teachings of the Upanishads. It would be absorbed
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar, Take the same advice. Your insults are beyond the pale, especially for a presumed moderator. See Chris' Posting Tips, as well. I give this advice as a friendly suggestion, and for the benefit of all here concerned. tnx, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Stop your carping and reread the rules... Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
It has to do with the rules, broken on two different occasions by a presumed moderator in the same day, hence the two complaints. Come, now; if we're on to a new way of operating, surely you are most welcome to fall in line, also. Leave behind the nasties and gutter tactics, and pls. discuss civilly. It's the Zen thing to do, but we don't need to invoke that to incur civility and respect. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Stop your carping and reread the rules... The moderators have agreed on the rules and it's not up to you to change them. A single complaint is OK, but incessant gripping on the same issue is off topic and has nothing to do with zen.. Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, (and Bill!), Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of them quiet -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names. Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans. Please realize this. Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please. For the good of this Forum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Posting and Replying Policy - Draft
Edgar, Just don't incur the need for it, and post civilly. Problem solved! We'll let it go at that. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Changing a thread title is fine and is encouraged when the poster wants to transition to a new thread. Nothing wrong with it at all. On the other hand snipping does destroy the integrity of threads and is deprecated. You are the only poster here that does it. That being said I don't think the moderators want to nit pick every aspect of how members choose to post. The form of posts should pretty much be left up to individual posters and excessive complaints about other's posting styles are off topic and a distraction... Edgar co-moderator Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] The Samsarashank Redemption
He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Attempts to deliberately steer the weather
Bill!, Edgar,br/br/Be gentlebr/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption
PBS, I think it's right. It depends on what one escapes into, and maybe even on how, and why. Or if escape is the truth of the matter. Any other pointers, perfume advisories, or menu recommendations? I'm having my birthday cake in 30 minutes. Be free, healthy, in the Dharma, --Joe pandabananasock pandabananasock@... wrote: He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Attempts to deliberately steer the weather
Mike, Couldn' hoit, as we say in N' Yawk. --J. uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, Edgar, Be gentle Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?:
Dear Mr. Suresh, It is wonderful. TOO wonderful for me. I think, too, that you out-do yourself, there. It is truly FINE. Do others think so, too? Wow! Glad to know you. Maybe the only thing to do next is to use a ploy or tactic they will *NOT* expect. Try a perspective from Zen. It's bound to cause an upset, due both to unfamiliarity by most readers, AND... because it is rather *appropriate*, if only they will think of it so, too. Chances are, they will NOT; CAN not. It will be be too new to them, too far afield, or, as we say, too far from Left Field (a Baseball sport analogy). Not part of any current threads. As usual, then, you are on your own (Batter-up!) ;-) Like the rest of us. Now you know better than we do, how it is to be Us. Don't tell anyone. You see what I mean? I wish you the very best. Pardon my fun -ing. It's just to encourage you in doing the great work you're doing. Onward! Sincerely, --Joe PS (Sober, and talking sense; eating Birthday Cake; drinking coffee). SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: Dear all, This is not my article, but since it compares Buddha with Hindu god I thought let us see your view. Best regards Suresh WAS BUDDHA AN AVATHAARA OF VISHNU ?: [schnip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption
That's just it, though. It doesn't matter how, and the why is always the same. You only 'escape' into fugitivery. Crazy part is, you're the warden! Why the hell are you in a cell working on escape plans?! On Fri, 6/28/13, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: [Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 28, 2013, 9:10 PM PBS, I think it's right. It depends on what one escapes into, and maybe even on how, and why. Or if escape is the truth of the matter. Any other pointers, perfume advisories, or menu recommendations? I'm having my birthday cake in 30 minutes. Be free, healthy, in the Dharma, --Joe pandabananasock pandabananasock@... wrote: He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
