Mike, Agreed. So? That has nothing to do with the naive Buddhist & Hindu view of karma as doing good you'll get good in return and vice versa...
Argue your point with Bill. He's the one that claims it's not true... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:16 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Edgar, > > There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha wanted to find out > how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. His first premise > was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The actual are the > laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit at the feet > of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers to his > questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his > thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body > sensations changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe > does. These changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - > everything in the body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every > change in the body is caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. > Craving for things we don't have and want and aversion for the things we > have, but don't want. The (moral) action we take to satisfy our desires is > what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught and I see > no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and observed. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage > Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:29:08 PM > > > Mike, > > > You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill > denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and > effect.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is "nonsense", but I >> agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are >> laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of >> the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, >> illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your >> hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or >> happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or >> suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and >> conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll >> reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, >> these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you >> recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha >> did and that's what I also witness. >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage >> Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM >> >> >> Mike, >> >> First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining >> it. >> >> Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to >> wade through it all.. >> >> Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's >> only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in >> general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. >> Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the >> world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of >> Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. >> >> Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all >> one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form >> altogether. >> >> But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is >> equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to >> the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and >> reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good >> or bad, or enlightened or not. >> >> Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen >> in the proper light..... >> >> That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just >> cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world >> of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil >> evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is >> doing the judging.... >> >> Edgar >> >> On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> > Edgar,<br/><br/>There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also >> > depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been >> > taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person >> > still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original >> > Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where >> > is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma >> > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or >> > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma >> > impossible.<br/><br/>Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are >> > many, many more out there if you care to do the research..<br/><br/>>He >> > who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, >> > too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** >> > (buddhanet.net)<<br/><br/>>Since basic nature transcends all duality and >> > is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether >> > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and >> > effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the >> > Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to >> > receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at >> > the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable >> > (angel-fire.com)<<br/><br/>>In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed >> > that the effects of negative past karma can be "purified" through such >> > practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, >> > after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results >> > he or she otherwise would have.[92]<br/>(Wiki)<br/><br/>>The Japanese >> > Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to >> > destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in >> > saṃsāra.[89][90]<br/><br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> > > >
