[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, You asked: if we did not have dreams... where would we be?. We would be right here, right now - exactly the same place we'd be if we did have dreams. And yes, I have dreams - desires that the future will unfold in a certain way that is beneficial to my self - but I don't (at least try not to) form attachments to them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...if we did not have dreams... where would we be?...surely you have dreams that come true...merle  Merle, Yes, dreams and predictions are delusions especially when they are perceived to have come true. And for the 437th time...only experience (sensual) is real IMO. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..so what about dreams and predictions ? dreams and predictions can come true ... i had a dream..martin luther king jr àdo they fall in your notion of illusions and delusions? àis anything real for you? àmerle Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experienc= e. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. =20 And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect= )in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes= them useful. =20 Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our ex= perience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can under= stand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a= delusion (or illusion). =20 I'm not sure what you mean by
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
thank you..i understand..merle Merle, The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ license to reply to them myself :) You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans need to survive Me: To survive means to live to any point in the future. What is there right NOW? You: we all know that things can get distorted through thoughts. Me: Things and thoughts are already distortions. It is actually just one thing-thought-thing-thought cycle. Once things, already thoughts; once thoughts, already things, and vice-double-reverse-infinity-times-a-zillion-versa. You:we experience and then we think actually this process is simultaneous... Me: Of course it seems simultaneous, because when we THINK about when experience happens, we really are thinking about when our thought of experience happens. Experience just happens. It is happeningnessousociteitanity. Like right now. Words fail; I can't meditate for you! Hopefully helpful, and helpfully hopeful, The PeeBSter.
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill!, Edgar, I can explain about the number of degrees measured in a triangle in your space being a determinant of the geometry of the space you are in, but I can also agree with Bill! that experience is our only life. Inference and reasoning can project in advance some other experiences that would be *possible*, to occur at some other time, *perhaps*; or, inference and reasoning can effectively fictionalize experiences that we have never had. To the extent that there is fictionalization, the content of the reasoning is delusory. In other words, it is not our experience. Reasoning does *not* provide experience. Experiences we have while reading a novel, having to do with the story, are delusions; they are not real. Shear fiction. Conditions at the Event Horizon of a Black Hole are not our experience: they are delusions. The sensation of extended weightlessness as, say, of the astronauts in orbit, is not our experience, and is delusion: we have not experienced it, and know nothing of it. We don't own that. We can only imagine. Imagining gives no *certainty* of anything outside your experience! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is possible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of your experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't know whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or Mike can explain it... Edgar Bill! wrote: Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill!, Well, I was going to say that you are a good man, and true to your word. Consistent, even. And kindly. But, ...there's no Bill!(!). Oh, well. Still, and all... . (now THERE'S a phrase I've not used in 40 years...). Still, and all, ...your consistency shows an excellent clarity, which can only have been gotten by true awakening, and maintained by perpetual practice. Else, you would not stick with it as you do. Kudos. You state the truth of it, I'd say. Regularly. Dependably. Credit, where it's due. ;-) (others don't want credit: they want Cash!) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, Yet again Edgar misinterprets and misrepresents what I have consistently said. His count is only 1 off this time, but it's an important 1... I do NOT believe only I exist, and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions. I believe I and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions. I hope you appreciate the difference... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't understand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outside of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is possible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of your experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't know whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or Mike can explain it... Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive.
RE: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar,br/br/Won't be my job. In high school I never got passed 'sums'. Still have a maths phobia.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Yet again Edgar misinterprets and misrepresents what I have consistently said. His count is only 1 off this time, but it's an important 1... I do NOT believe only I exist, and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions. I believe I and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions. I hope you appreciate the difference... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, You don't get the depths of Bill's delusions. Bill truly believes only HE exists and you and I are delusions, figments of HIS imagination. This solipsistic delusion is the height of arrogance and megalomania.. Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Merle Lester wrote: i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill... we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Chris, I do agree with you but take no offense. I don't think Edgar is purposely misquoting what I say. I think he really believes that's what I say. To borrow some lyrics from THE BOXER, an old Simon and Garfunkle song, I think sometimes Edgar hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I could quote some old story about the red bearded one, but I'll wager he partially agrees with me when it's his day again. Anyway, aside from my whining about your writing, do you actually believe Bill is a solopsist? I have never read him say that reality isn't, merely that it's chaos, with no internal order outside of Just This. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 15, 2013 9:28 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, Yes, almost as bad as you speaking for him! :-) Edgar On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Bill's never said this, and I personally find falsely attributing things to people to be about par socially with calling them names. He says no one exists, there is no Bill and no Chris, just experiencing. All supppsedly separate beings are incorrect perceptions, there is no separation possible. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 15, 2013 6:16 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, You don't get the depths of Bill's delusions. Bill truly believes only HE exists and you and I are delusions, figments of HIS imagination. This solipsistic delusion is the height of arrogance and megalomania.. Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Merle Lester wrote: i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill... we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..à i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see à we hear we touch we smell we taste...à à one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...à à one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...à i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... à then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others à and then there is a consensus merle à Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâà bill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle Ãâà Merle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Mike, Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have 'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean 'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
bill...you have a problem with human nature?... merle Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
i thought we were all buddhas...merle Mike, Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have 'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean 'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, No, I don't have a problem with Human Nature. I don't have a problem with delusions because I see them as delusive - most of the time. My zen practice is to fully integrate Buddha Nature and Human Nature (delusions)so Human Nature does not obscure or block-out awareness of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...you have a problem with human nature?... merle  Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experienc= e. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. =20 And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect= )in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes= them useful. =20 Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our ex= perience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can under= stand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a= delusion (or illusion). =20 I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I = cannot comment on that. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrot= e: =20 =20 =C2 so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the sche= me of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for in= stance traffic lights..=C2=20 =20 i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the on= ly real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see =C2 we hear we tou= ch we smell we taste...=C2=20 =C2 one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...=C2=20 =C2 one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see,= hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...=C2=20 i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understand= ing the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence = an intellect... =C2 then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communic= ate that reality to others =C2 and then there is a consensus =20 merle =20 =C2=20 Merle, =20 IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sens= ory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). =20 That's it. That's all. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
So you know enough of his history to know he is not just writing stuff he has read? You may find his language inaccurate or unreflective of what his intent is, but I, again a sensitive soul, find your use of the comic book zen trope to be a sign of attributing ill will. Whatever, the question you ask is if your report of Bill's statement that I am not real offends me. My answer is to 'Chris' is not real. Of course that is not offensive! I have no real self, never have, couldn't possibly have one. Nor could Bill nor any of the waves typing into computers be cut off from one another. We are all in this together. Joe, Mike, dervish, Merle, you, the other ED, we are just transitory waves that can be sketched for a moment but are all temporary configurations of life, flowing thru, flowing onward, just flowing so interestingly. If you are asking some rarified question about are we 'real' as opposed to 'unreal', or some such proposition I can't quite put together, then I am afraid you are out of my depth. Conveniently labeled for your enjoyment, --Chris 301-270-6524
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar, Thanks for the confirmation about my reasoning considering the space. You are absolutely correct in your first sentence saying it is 100% self-evident that my statement that your existence as something separate and completely apart from Merle or Mike or Chris or me. But the key word in that statement is SELF. It is SELF-evident. It is evident to YOUR SELF (your delusion of self and your delusion of Merle's self and my self) that we are all separate. It is SELF-evident, yes. It is not however evident, and in fact when you realize Buddha Nature you experience that this is not indeed the case. So, in your next statement: Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not the only think you can really say from experience is Why? Because I am sitting here. Everything else in that statement is at best speculation and in reality is delusive. Yes, you can say that I am only a 'figment of your imagination'. I would leave out the prejudicial word only and change 'figment of imagination' to 'perception' or even 'delusion' - but yes, I agree. 'We' (our mutual but individual delusion of a separate self) do perceive many thing the same way. That's our Human Nature at work. It doesn't point to any logical structure 'out there', but point to a commonality of logic which is big part of Human Nature, and the common human predilection to project that logic into our experiences to create perceptions. Reality is indeed incontrovertible because it is entirely experiential and not something subject to logic or emotions or other whims of Human Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Yes, dreams and predictions are delusions especially when they are perceived to have come true. And for the 437th time...only experience (sensual) is real IMO. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..so what about dreams and predictions ? dreams and predictions can come true ... i had a dream..martin luther king jr  do they fall in your notion of illusions and delusions?  is anything real for you?  merle Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experienc= e. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. =20 And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect= )in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes= them useful. =20 Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our ex= perience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can under= stand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a= delusion (or illusion). =20 I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I = cannot comment on that. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrot= e: =20 =20 =C2 so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the sche= me of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for in= stance traffic lights..=C2=20 =20 i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the on= ly real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see =C2 we hear we tou= ch we smell we taste...=C2=20 =C2 one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...=C2=20 =C2 one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see,= hear, touch,
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Do you think your perception of 'self' as something distinct and different from everything else is real? If you do, then you are justified in thinking my statement is crazy. If you don't, then I am just agreeing with you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  really..how quaint..bill has decided we are all imaginary then?... merle  Chris, I think Bill is feeding us all (including himself) a line he doesn't actually believe (and certainly doesn't experience) because he's somehow gotten it into his head that it's proper Zen speak when all Zen masters back to Buddha and the Vedic philosophers before them have all affirmed the existence of an external world of forms that behaves causally but is empty of self-substance. . Likely reading too many comic books on the subject... He just admitted again he doesn't believe you or I or anyone else on this group is real. That makes him a solipsist because we are all figments of HIS imagination. How does that make YOU feel? Are you real or are you not? Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:  So, Edgar, do you really believe Bill is a solopsist? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 16, 2013 12:41 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, I do agree with you but take no offense. I don't think Edgar is purposely misquoting what I say.  I think he really believes that's what I say. To borrow some lyrics from THE BOXER, an old Simon and Garfunkle song, I think sometimes Edgar hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I could quote some old story about the red bearded one, but I'll wager he partially agrees with me when it's his day again. Anyway, aside from my whining about your writing, do you actually believe Bill is a solopsist?  I have never read him say that reality isn't,  merely that it's chaos, with no internal order outside of Just This. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524  On Jul 15, 2013 9:28 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Chris, Yes, almost as bad as you speaking for him! :-) Edgar On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Bill's never said this, and I personally find falsely attributing things to people to be about par socially with calling them names. He says no one exists, there is no Bill and no Chris, just experiencing. All supppsedly separate beings are incorrect perceptions,  there is no separation possible. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524  On Jul 15, 2013 6:16 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Merle, You don't get the depths of Bill's delusions. Bill truly believes only HE exists and you and I are delusions, figments of HIS imagination. This solipsistic delusion is the height of arrogance and megalomania.. Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Merle Lester wrote:  i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all  perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill...  we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ license to reply to them myself :) You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans need to survive Me: To survive means to live to any point in the future. What is there right NOW? You: we all know that things can get distorted through thoughts. Me: Things and thoughts are already distortions. It is actually just one thing-thought-thing-thought cycle. Once things, already thoughts; once thoughts, already things, and vice-double-reverse-infinity-times-a-zillion-versa. You:we experience and then we think actually this process is simultaneous... Me: Of course it seems simultaneous, because when we THINK about when experience happens, we really are thinking about when our thought of experience happens. Experience just happens. It is happeningnessousociteitanity. Like right now. Words fail; I can't meditate for you! Hopefully helpful, and helpfully hopeful, The PeeBSter. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, I'll respond to your question but you should also get Edgar to respond to get his side. IMO Edgar is attached to his intellect. That leads him to want to 'understand' reality rather than just experience it as it is. Building on that he believes the logical concepts we perceive through our intellect are truths that we've discovered by understanding reality. I believe the intellect is the source of delusions and that all logical concepts are created there and are themselves delusive. He also almost always presents his posts from a dualistic/pluralistic point-of-view - or as Mike would say 'relative' point-of-view. I generally speak from a monistic point-of-view - or as Mike would say the 'absolute' point-of-view. That's about it from my perspective...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..i see what you are driving at...ok..however then why do all that hair splitting with edgar?..  merle  Merle, I don't really disagree with much of what you say, but many times I don't see the connection with zen. For example the idea that we need a consensus so we can function as a society has nothing to do with zen practice. It certainly might be a goal in a religion like Buddhism, but not zen. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àài must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning...àwe all àperceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill...ààwe need a consensus so we can function as a society ...àmerle àBill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: àMerle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàso if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..Ãâài do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see Ãâàwe hear we touch we smell we taste...ÃâàÃâàone interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...ÃâàÃâàone must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...Ãâài'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... Ãâàthen it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others Ãâàand then there is a consensus merle ÃâàMerle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Thanks for correcting my perception. And I have now looked at a synopsis of The Time Keeper. It sounds mildly interesting but I don't think I'll be reading it any time soon. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...pay attention...it's siska who is asking you not merle. and you are reckoning you have all your senses  in tact .. merle  Merle, No, I have not read that book. I'll Bing it to find out what it's about...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, Have you read Albom's The Time Keeper? I find it interesting, though not very 'Zen' (whatever that means :-p), but the idea is just interesting. And of course, this writer is very gifted in story-telling... Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:18:46 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions Edgar, I forgot to address your 'wasting time' comment which IMO is much more important that the other part. IMO you feel you're 'wasting time' because you have an attachment to accomplishment. When you don't accomplish what your self has defined as important then you feel like you've 'wasted time'. Of course I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that I would also remind you that there is no time to waste. Time is delusive. There is only Now, and what you do with it is entirely up to you - but nothing you do is a waste. It's just life. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..à i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see à we hear we touch we smell we taste...à à one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...à à one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...à i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... à then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others à and then there is a consensus merle à Merle, IMO only experience is real
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Buddha Nature and Human Nature working hand-in-hand is the purpose of zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill  would not human nature and buddha nature work hand in hand... buddha after all was human..merle  Merle, We don't have to make sense of our experiences. We could just sit in deep samadhi until we died. We choose to intellectualize our experiences and use these perceptions as the basis for making decisions about what actions to take and what not to take. Although I admit that for most of us it's really not a choice since we aren't aware there is an alternative. Anyway, all that's our Human Nature at work, not Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..we have to make sense of our experiences... and if you say the intellect distorts reality..how else pray are you going to operate?..there is no other system...merle àMerle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàso if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..Ãâài do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see Ãâàwe hear we touch we smell we taste...ÃâàÃâàone interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...ÃâàÃâàone must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...Ãâài'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... Ãâàthen it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others Ãâàand then there is a consensus merle ÃâàMerle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. ByÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMegan ScudellariÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà|ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàJuly 1, 2013
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle  Merle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. ByàMegan Scudellarià|àJuly 1, 2013 é BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of Eltroxinââ¬the only thyroid hormone replacement drug approved and paid for by the government and used by tens of thousands of New Zealanders since 1973. Within months, reports of side effects began trickling in to the governmentââ¬â¢s health-care monitoring agency. These included known side effects of the drug, such as lethargy, joint pain, and depression, as well as symptoms not normally associated with the drug or disease, including eye pain, itching, and nausea. Then, the following summer, the floodgates opened: in the 18 months following the release of the new tablets, the rate of Eltroxin adverse event reporting rose nearly 2,000-fold.1 The strange thing was, the active ingredient in the drug, thyroxine, was exactly the same. Laboratory testing proved that the new formulation was bioequivalent to the old one. The only change was that the drugmaker, GlaxoSmithKline, had moved its manufacturing process from Canada to Germany, and in the process altered the drugââ¬â¢s inert qualities, including the tabletsââ¬â¢ size, color, and markings. So why were people getting sick? In June, it turned out, newspapers and TV stations around the country had begun to directly attribute the reported adverse effects to the changes in the drug. Following widespread coverage of the issue, more and more patients reported adverse events to the government. And the areas of the country with the most intense media coverage had the highest rates of reported ill effects, suggesting that perhaps a little social persuasion was at play. ââ¬ÅNoceboâ⬠(meaning ââ¬ÅI shall harmââ¬) is the dastardly sibling of placebo (ââ¬ÅI shall pleaseââ¬). But Eltroxin takers were not making up their symptoms. The feelings were real, but in the vast majority of cases they could not be attributed to the drugââ¬â¢s pharmacological properties. The patients were victims of the nocebo effect. ââ¬ÅNoceboâ⬠(meaning ââ¬ÅI shall harmââ¬) is the dastardly sibling of placebo (ââ¬ÅI shall pleaseââ¬). In a placebo response, a sham medication or procedure has a beneficial health effect as a result of a patientââ¬â¢s expectation. Sugar pills, for example, can powerfully improve depression when the patient believes them to be antidepressants. But, researchers are learning, the reverse phenomenon is also common: negative expectations can actually cause harm. When Parkinsonââ¬â¢s patients undergoing deep brain stimulation were told that their brain pacemaker was going to be turned off, symptoms of their illness became more pronounced, even when the pacemaker was left on.2àWhen people with and without lactose intolerance were asked to ingest lactose, but were actually given glucose, 44 percent of those with lactose intolerance and 26 percent of those without it still complained of stomach pain.3àAnd men treated for an enlarged prostate with a commonly prescribed drug and told that the drug ââ¬Åmay cause erectile dysfunction, decreased libido, [and] problems of ejaculation,â⬠but that these effects were ââ¬Åuncommon,â⬠were more than twice as likely to experience impotence as those who were not so informed.4 On paper, it sounds like psychobabbleââ¬a negative effect caused by a sham treatment based on a patientââ¬â¢s expectationsââ¬but it is a real biochemical and physiological process,
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. ByÃâàMegan ScudellariÃâà|ÃâàJuly 1, 2013 Ãâé BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of Eltroxinâââ¬the only thyroid hormone replacement drug approved and paid for by the government and used by tens of thousands of New Zealanders since 1973. Within months, reports of side effects began trickling in to the governmentâââ‰â¢s health-care monitoring agency. These included known side effects of the drug, such as lethargy, joint pain, and depression, as well as symptoms not normally associated with the drug or disease, including eye pain, itching, and nausea. Then, the following summer, the floodgates opened: in the 18 months following the release of the new tablets, the rate of Eltroxin adverse event reporting rose nearly 2,000-fold.1 The strange thing was, the active ingredient in the drug, thyroxine, was exactly the same. Laboratory testing proved that the new formulation was bioequivalent to the old one. The only change was that the drugmaker, GlaxoSmithKline, had moved its manufacturing process from Canada to Germany, and in the process altered the drugâââ‰â¢s inert qualities, including the tabletsâââ‰â¢ size, color, and markings. So why were people getting sick? In June, it turned out, newspapers and TV stations around the country had begun to directly attribute the reported
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. ByÃâàMegan ScudellariÃâà|ÃâàJuly 1, 2013 Ãâé BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of Eltroxinâââ¬the only thyroid hormone replacement drug approved and paid for by the government and used by tens of thousands of New Zealanders since 1973. Within months, reports of side effects began trickling in to the governmentâââ‰â¢s health-care monitoring agency. These included known side effects of the drug,
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar, I forgot to address your 'wasting time' comment which IMO is much more important that the other part. IMO you feel you're 'wasting time' because you have an attachment to accomplishment. When you don't accomplish what your self has defined as important then you feel like you've 'wasted time'. Of course I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that I would also remind you that there is no time to waste. Time is delusive. There is only Now, and what you do with it is entirely up to you - but nothing you do is a waste. It's just life. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar,br/br/Every Zen teacher and Buddha agree with you is a bit revealing... Anyway, no, not exactly. Buddha taught us to go within to discover reality. Speculating what 'out there' is made of is the role of philosophers and meta-physicians. If nothing else, the Buddha was practical. That's why we just concentrate on how 'out there' affects us and we adjust accordingly. Bill!'s approach is a lot more closer to what Buddha taught, even though Bill! does tend to gloss over the relative (Buddha taught two truths - the relative and absolute).br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle,br/br/br/ blind freddie knows there are 2...br/br/I wise and knowledgable person such as yourself might understand this, but evidently it is not that obvious given the constant arguing between Edgar and Bill!.br/br/hey i thought truth was a forbidden word / notion in zen? mikebr/br/'Truth' itself is conceptual. You need to look behind the word itself to find the meaning. br/br/doesn't take buddha to figure that truth outbr/br/When you've worked it out you *will* be a buddha.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bingo!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle,br/br/Now you're stuck in the relative. How can you apply your understanding of the absolute in this matter?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, I don't really disagree with much of what you say, but many times I don't see the connection with zen. For example the idea that we need a consensus so we can function as a society has nothing to do with zen practice. It certainly might be a goal in a religion like Buddhism, but not zen. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all  perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill...  we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle  Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote:  Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àso if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..ài do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see àwe hear we touch we smell we taste...ààone interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...ààone must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...ài'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... àthen it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others àand then there is a consensus merle àMerle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle ÃâàMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. ByÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMegan ScudellariÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà|ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàJuly 1, 2013 ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâé BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of EltroxinÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬the only
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, No, I have not read that book. I'll Bing it to find out what it's about...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, Have you read Albom's The Time Keeper? I find it interesting, though not very 'Zen' (whatever that means :-p), but the idea is just interesting. And of course, this writer is very gifted in story-telling... Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:18:46 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions Edgar, I forgot to address your 'wasting time' comment which IMO is much more important that the other part. IMO you feel you're 'wasting time' because you have an attachment to accomplishment. When you don't accomplish what your self has defined as important then you feel like you've 'wasted time'. Of course I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that I would also remind you that there is no time to waste. Time is delusive. There is only Now, and what you do with it is entirely up to you - but nothing you do is a waste. It's just life. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, We don't have to make sense of our experiences. We could just sit in deep samadhi until we died. We choose to intellectualize our experiences and use these perceptions as the basis for making decisions about what actions to take and what not to take. Although I admit that for most of us it's really not a choice since we aren't aware there is an alternative. Anyway, all that's our Human Nature at work, not Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..we have to make sense of our experiences... and if you say the intellect distorts reality..how else pray are you going to operate?..there is no other system...merle  Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àso if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..ài do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see àwe hear we touch we smell we taste...ààone interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...ààone must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...ài'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... àthen it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others àand then there is a consensus merle àMerle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle ÃâàMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. ByÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMegan ScudellariÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà|ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàJuly 1, 2013 ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâé BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of EltroxinÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬the only thyroid hormone replacement drug approved and paid for by the government and used by tens of thousands of New Zealanders since 1973. Within months, reports of side effects began trickling in to the governmentÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s health-care monitoring agency. These included known side effects of the drug, such as
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
bill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle Merle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  i thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. By Megan Scudellari | July 1, 2013 © BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of Eltroxinâ€the only thyroid hormone replacement drug approved and paid for by the government and used by tens of thousands of New Zealanders since 1973. Within months, reports of side effects began trickling in to the government’s health-care monitoring agency. These included known side effects of the drug, such as lethargy, joint pain, and depression, as well as symptoms not normally associated with the drug or disease, including eye pain, itching, and nausea. Then, the following summer, the floodgates opened: in the 18 months following the release of the new tablets, the rate of Eltroxin adverse event reporting rose nearly 2,000-fold.1 The strange thing was, the active ingredient in the drug, thyroxine, was exactly the same. Laboratory testing proved that the new formulation was bioequivalent to the old one. The only change was that the drugmaker, GlaxoSmithKline, had moved its manufacturing process from Canada to Germany, and in the process altered the drug’s inert qualities, including the tablets’ size, color, and markings. So why were people getting sick? In June, it turned out, newspapers and TV stations around the country had begun to directly attribute the reported adverse effects to the changes in the drug. Following widespread coverage of the issue, more and more patients reported adverse events to the government. And the areas of the country with the most intense media coverage had the highest rates of reported ill effects, suggesting that perhaps a little social persuasion was at play. “Nocebo†(meaning “I shall harmâ€) is the dastardly sibling of placebo (“I shall pleaseâ€). But Eltroxin takers were not making up their symptoms. The feelings were real, but in the vast majority of cases they could not be attributed to the drug’s pharmacological properties. The patients were victims of the nocebo effect. “Nocebo†(meaning “I shall harmâ€) is the dastardly sibling of placebo (“I shall pleaseâ€). In a placebo response, a sham medication or procedure has a beneficial health effect as a result of a patient’s expectation. Sugar pills, for example, can powerfully improve depression when the patient believes them to be antidepressants. But, researchers are learning, the reverse phenomenon is also common: negative expectations can actually cause harm. When Parkinson’s patients undergoing deep brain stimulation were told that their brain pacemaker was going to be turned off, symptoms of their illness became more pronounced, even when the pacemaker was left on.2 When people with and without lactose intolerance were asked to ingest lactose, but were actually given glucose, 44 percent of those with lactose intolerance and 26 percent of those without it still complained of stomach pain.3 And men treated for an enlarged prostate with a commonly prescribed drug and told that the drug “may cause erectile dysfunction, decreased libido, [and] problems of ejaculation,†but that these effects were “uncommon,†were more than twice as likely to experience impotence as those who were not so informed.4 On paper, it sounds like psychobabbleâ€a negative effect caused by a sham treatment based on a patient’s expectationsâ€but it is a real biochemical and physiological process, involving pain and stress pathways in the brain. And mounting evidence suggests that the nocebo effect is having a substantial negative impact on clinical research, medicine, and health. “Nocebo is at least as important as the placebo effect and may be more widespread,†says Ted Kaptchuk, director of Harvard’s Program in Placebo Studies at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts. Now that this
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  i thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the nocebo effect may help prevent this painful phenomenon. By Megan Scudellari | July 1, 2013 © BRYAN SATALINO Something strange was happening in New Zealand. In the fall of 2007, pharmacies across the country had begun dispensing a new formulation of Eltroxinâthe only thyroid hormone replacement drug approved and paid for by the government and used by tens of thousands of New Zealanders since 1973. Within months, reports of side effects began trickling in to the governmentâs health-care monitoring agency. These included known side effects of the drug, such as lethargy, joint pain, and depression, as well as symptoms not normally associated with the drug or disease, including eye pain, itching, and nausea. Then, the following summer, the floodgates opened: in the 18 months following the release of the new tablets, the rate of Eltroxin adverse event reporting rose nearly 2,000-fold.1 The strange thing was, the active ingredient in the drug, thyroxine, was exactly the same. Laboratory testing proved that the new formulation was bioequivalent to the old one. The only change was that the drugmaker, GlaxoSmithKline, had moved its manufacturing process from Canada to Germany, and in the process altered the drugâs inert qualities, including the tabletsâ size, color, and markings. So why were people getting sick? In June, it turned out, newspapers and TV stations around the country had begun to directly attribute the reported adverse effects to the changes in the drug. Following widespread coverage of the issue, more and more patients reported adverse events to the government. And the areas of the country with the most intense media coverage had the highest rates of reported ill effects, suggesting that perhaps a little social persuasion was at play. âNoceboâ (meaning âI shall harmâ) is the dastardly sibling of placebo (âI shall pleaseâ). But Eltroxin takers were not making up their symptoms. The feelings were real, but in the vast majority of cases they could not be attributed to the drugâs pharmacological properties. The patients were victims of the nocebo effect. âNoceboâ (meaning âI shall harmâ) is the dastardly sibling of placebo (âI shall pleaseâ). In a placebo response, a sham medication or procedure has a beneficial health effect as a result of a patientâs expectation. Sugar pills, for example, can powerfully improve depression when the patient believes them to be antidepressants. But, researchers are learning, the reverse phenomenon is also common: negative expectations can actually cause harm. When Parkinsonâs patients undergoing deep brain stimulation were told that their brain pacemaker was going to be turned off, symptoms of their illness became more pronounced, even when the pacemaker was left on.2 When people with and without lactose intolerance were asked to ingest lactose, but were actually given glucose, 44 percent of those with lactose intolerance and 26 percent of those without it still complained of stomach pain.3 And men treated for an enlarged prostate with a commonly prescribed drug and told that the drug âmay cause erectile dysfunction, decreased libido, [and] problems of ejaculation,â but that these effects were âuncommon,â were more than twice as likely to experience impotence as those who were not so informed.4 On paper, it sounds like psychobabbleâa negative effect caused by a sham treatment based on a patientâs expectationsâbut it is a real biochemical and physiological process, involving pain and stress pathways in the brain. And mounting evidence suggests that the nocebo effect is having a substantial negative impact on clinical research, medicine, and health. âNocebo is at least as important as the placebo effect and may be more widespread,â says Ted Kaptchuk, director of Harvardâs Program in Placebo Studies at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts. Now that this pernicious phenomenon is starting to receive the recognition it deserves, the question is: What exactly can be done
