Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing Af
Wouldn't this also mean confession of sin and serious sin where committed? Doesn't that person have an obligation to discuss this with the presiding authority before baptism? If he doesn't, shouldn't he be suspect? Stacy. At 11:05 AM 11/30/2002 -0800, you wrote: As I have been reading this issue, the one thing that keeps coming to mind is that phrase: Judge not, lest ye be judged. As I contemplate the numerous helpful tips being given, the one that it appears to me is so many people are trying to get God to renege on his agreement to that individual. Did this person go into the waters of baptism and was his sins forgiven? Did this individual repent of his sins? Sorry folks, but no one on this planet has the authority to go against Gods word. If I am forgiven of my sins because God has so indicated, no one has that authority to so no to God, no he hasn't. No bishop, stake president can take back what God has given, and that is forgiveness. period - end of sentance. Vic --- Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul - this is excellent advice. If one's motivation for telling on someone is along the lines of that person shouldn't have a temple recommend, then do yourself a favor and keep the lips sealed. However, if you are truly concerned for an individual's eternal blessings and wish to help them avoid trying to mock the Lord, then do as Paul (Paul O. that is :-) suggests. Talk to them. if they are too afraid to go to the Bishop alone, then offer to go with them. After that, in love and faith, seek the assistance of your Priesthood leadership to help this individual. Jon Paul wrote: If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this considered gossip? and heresay? I don't know about your situation but if I was close to someone whom I was pretty sure had committed a serious sin and was not repenting I would probably let the bishop know about it and leave it in his hands for the time being. Keep it a private matter with the priesthood authorities. Depending on the circumstances I might warn the person that the bishop will be tipped off so if there is something to confess they best do it of their own free will and choice and get the matter resolved properly. I don't think it is gossip or what not. Nothing should be said outside the bounds of love and general concern for the welfare of the individual involved. / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. --- http://www.DCemail.com --- A Washington Online Community Member --- http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing Af
As I have been reading this issue, the one thing that keeps coming to mind is that phrase: Judge not, lest ye be judged. As I contemplate the numerous helpful tips being given, the one that it appears to me is so many people are trying to get God to renege on his agreement to that individual. Did this person go into the waters of baptism and was his sins forgiven? Did this individual repent of his sins? Sorry folks, but no one on this planet has the authority to go against Gods word. If I am forgiven of my sins because God has so indicated, no one has that authority to so no to God, no he hasn't. No bishop, stake president can take back what God has given, and that is forgiveness. period - end of sentance. Vic --- Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul - this is excellent advice. If one's motivation for telling on someone is along the lines of that person shouldn't have a temple recommend, then do yourself a favor and keep the lips sealed. However, if you are truly concerned for an individual's eternal blessings and wish to help them avoid trying to mock the Lord, then do as Paul (Paul O. that is :-) suggests. Talk to them. if they are too afraid to go to the Bishop alone, then offer to go with them. After that, in love and faith, seek the assistance of your Priesthood leadership to help this individual. Jon Paul wrote: If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this considered gossip? and heresay? I don't know about your situation but if I was close to someone whom I was pretty sure had committed a serious sin and was not repenting I would probably let the bishop know about it and leave it in his hands for the time being. Keep it a private matter with the priesthood authorities. Depending on the circumstances I might warn the person that the bishop will be tipped off so if there is something to confess they best do it of their own free will and choice and get the matter resolved properly. I don't think it is gossip or what not. Nothing should be said outside the bounds of love and general concern for the welfare of the individual involved. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. --- http://www.DCemail.com --- A Washington Online Community Member --- http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Can Anyone Become a Fully Qualified Member....
Stacy, If it concerns you, discuss it with his bishop. Let him know what you know about the situation, then let him handle it. If he sees any major problem, he will work it. He is the judge in Israel, not any of us (including Paul, even though I heard he has a gavel he likes rapping the table with) has the right to judge him for past sins. We only have the responsibility to ensure the bishop is aware of the problem. I see this in the same vein as a person who is called to a calling. When asked to sustain the person, if I know there is some serious/major reason to not sustain the person, it is my duty to bring it up. Once I discuss it with the authority, it is in their hands. I don't worry about it anymore. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this considered gossip? and heresay? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing Afte
At 20:18 11/26/2002 -0800, St Stace wrote: Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this information need to come out? It's a standard question in the temple recommend interview, if there are any past misdeeds that have not been properly resolved through the priesthood authority. It will have to be dealt with eventually. To answer your original question, if you have to ask the question to begin with, then probably you, personally, should not. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing
Stacy Smith: Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this information need to come out? ___ To be baptized, a person who has violated the laws of the land must have completed the terms of imprisonment, parole, and/or probation resulting from his conviction. He must also be interviewed by the mission president (who in some cases may delegate this interview to certain other Church leaders (not missionaries) if needed. After serving time and the parole/probation is complete, if the interview with the mission president is successful, he may be baptized. If you believe this did not happen, you may want to mention it to your bishop. Some rare cases require that the mission president seek permission from the First Presidency for baptism, but as you have described it, this would not be one of them. I agree with most of what others have said in this thread. If this person has met the requirements of baptism, he is entitled to all of the blessings of the gospel, including temple blessings. He has obviously been baptized more than a year to have a current temple recommend. We forgive, as the Lord told us. That said, however, there is no reason to tempt a person beyond their ability to resist that temptation. This means that my involvement with a person who has been a predator would only be in the safest of circumstances, such as at Church meetings and activities and in other public locations. The Church does the same thing. A person who has been convicted of molesting children, for example, may go through the entire process of a disciplinary council, usually losing his membership, then being readmited by baptism and eventually having his blessings restored. He is forgiven and, based on his repentance and subsequent actions, is entitled to all of the blessings of activity in the Church. The Church will, however, see that he is never given a calling or position of responsibility involving the youth or the children in the ward. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing
Larry talking about XXX The Church will, however, see that he is never given a calling or position of responsibility involving the youth or the children in the ward. And for good reason. First, it protects children from possible harm. Second it relieves further burden of the former perpetrator from having to suffer more temptation. So you see, it is in the best interest of all parties. Indeed, the Lord is wise. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing
Well, it has been said that he was not honest at his baptismal interview. However, I currently have only second-hand information of this. Stacy. At 08:52 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, you wrote: Stacy Smith: Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this information need to come out? ___ To be baptized, a person who has violated the laws of the land must have completed the terms of imprisonment, parole, and/or probation resulting from his conviction. He must also be interviewed by the mission president (who in some cases may delegate this interview to certain other Church leaders (not missionaries) if needed. After serving time and the parole/probation is complete, if the interview with the mission president is successful, he may be baptized. If you believe this did not happen, you may want to mention it to your bishop. Some rare cases require that the mission president seek permission from the First Presidency for baptism, but as you have described it, this would not be one of them. I agree with most of what others have said in this thread. If this person has met the requirements of baptism, he is entitled to all of the blessings of the gospel, including temple blessings. He has obviously been baptized more than a year to have a current temple recommend. We forgive, as the Lord told us. That said, however, there is no reason to tempt a person beyond their ability to resist that temptation. This means that my involvement with a person who has been a predator would only be in the safest of circumstances, such as at Church meetings and activities and in other public locations. The Church does the same thing. A person who has been convicted of molesting children, for example, may go through the entire process of a disciplinary council, usually losing his membership, then being readmited by baptism and eventually having his blessings restored. He is forgiven and, based on his repentance and subsequent actions, is entitled to all of the blessings of activity in the Church. The Church will, however, see that he is never given a calling or position of responsibility involving the youth or the children in the ward. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/10/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After Hav
Certainly, if a person who has committed a crime has satisfied society's requirements as far as punishment and restitution, and the person has also satisfied any Church imposed punishments, s/he can be restored to full membership. Could that man be a Bishop? I guess so, if the Lord wanted him to be. There may be some special requirements for special positions (such as Paul referenced below, and which I will check out next week when the temple presidency returns), but as far as I know, forgiveness means forgiveness. Jon Paul Osborne wrote: What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? I'm clueless about the above. But I do know that a man who has been divorced even though it was entirely the wife's fault he cannot be a sealer in the temple. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing Afte
Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this information need to come out? Stacy. At 05:45 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, you wrote: This doesn't violate the charter. All people have the opportunity to repent and change their lives. There are a few sins that are not repented of in this life, primarily murder. Sexual sin is very serious. Alma tells us that it is third in severity, after murder and denying the Holy Ghost. The reality is, not all bishops and stake presidents are well versed in handling such things. Some are extremely stern in the repentance process, while others are so afraid to lose the person, will go to any lengths not to excommunicate. Be aware of that as you consider dating people. You will have to determine from the relationship just how repentant the person really has been. If it is sexual sin, you can generally tell how changed they are by how they act on dates. If they want to neck and kiss a lot, you can have the idea that the person has not restrained himself enough. Necking outside of marriage is, after all, a sin, according to President Kimball. A person who has shown true remorse for sin, will not play on the edge of the cliff, but will stay far from it. The true exsmoker doesn't hold a cigarette in his fingers, unlit or lit. And someone who has repented of sexual sins will not risk being in the wrong places doing the wrong things. Criminals need the chance to repent and change also. You have the right to choose not to date this guy. However, don't forget to be a friend. This will help him to continue on his progress to exaltation. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After
Then what about the safety of blind people who wish to travel? Truly I'm beginning to wonder about our liberties. Stacy. At 12:35 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, you wrote: Jim It is a complicated world we live in. Indeed it is. It wasn't too long ago that a young person could commit murder here in Dallas and walk the streets on parole in a few years. Really. If a person is caught with LSD (acid) doing it on their own time-- they spent more time in jail then those miserable brats who committed murder. Dallas is not a safe place. If you come--be sure to pack a pistol because you might need it just to survive because you might pull up to the wrong gas station and not even know it until it's too late. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing Afte
If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this considered gossip? and heresay? Stacy. At 11:22 PM 11/26/2002 -0600, you wrote: Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this information need to come out? Yes, if the original information was something that should have been referred to the Mission President via the Zone Leaders who interviewed the candidate for baptism in order to make the repentance process complete and applicable. Living a good life is not enough. Full confession and repentance is required. Sooner or later he must pay the piper if he expects to be forgiven regardless of baptism. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After
This would be dangerous for us as any assailant could use the mace against us. Stacy. At 11:25 PM 11/26/2002 -0600, you wrote: Then what about the safety of blind people who wish to travel? Truly I'm beginning to wonder about our liberties. Carry mace. I do. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing Afte
If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this considered gossip? and heresay? I don't know about your situation but if I was close to someone whom I was pretty sure had committed a serious sin and was not repenting I would probably let the bishop know about it and leave it in his hands for the time being. Keep it a private matter with the priesthood authorities. Depending on the circumstances I might warn the person that the bishop will be tipped off so if there is something to confess they best do it of their own free will and choice and get the matter resolved properly. I don't think it is gossip or what not. Nothing should be said outside the bounds of love and general concern for the welfare of the individual involved. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In GoodStandingAfter
You all will likely recall that one of the questions asked during a temple recommend interview is whether there is anything in your past that hasn't been resolved properllly. Paul Osborne wrote: Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this information need to come out? Yes, if the original information was something that should have been referred to the Mission President via the Zone Leaders who interviewed the candidate for baptism in order to make the repentance process complete and applicable. Living a good life is not enough. Full confession and repentance is required. Sooner or later he must pay the piper if he expects to be forgiven regardless of baptism. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member InGoodStandingAfter Hav
I fully concur with Marc on this one; especially these statements: A. As far as the Church is concerned, if the offender has paid their debt to society and undergone whatever action the Church authorities determine, then he is forgiven. Please don't misconstrue the word forgiven in this context, however. While Church authorities have the power to absolve the offender from punishment or other disciplinary actions, and allow that person full fellowship, it is the Savior who forgives and grants the remission of sins. Bishops and Stake Presidents do not have the authority to remit sins. Only the Savior (and perhaps a few of His earthly servants - like the Prophet) have that power. I believe, especially in the case of serious transgression, that the Savior desires to see proof (through one's thoughts, words, and actions) that they have repented (or turned from) their sins before giving them the sweet peace that accompanies true forgiveness and remission of sins. B. Use common sense. While the Savior taught that we were to love all men, he did not say that we were to TRUST all men. Trust is something that has to be earned. Hope this helps, Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/24/02 10:51PM There is really only one question here that anyone on this list can answer, I'm afraid, and that is what the general policy is regarding people who have committed crimes. If they have paid their debt to society, and undergone whatever action the Church authorities involved determined, then that person is forgiven. The atonement is infinite, covering all sins except the sin against the Holy Ghost (there is another category, the shedding of innocent blood, which we are told involves some additional action, but I assume that neither of these sins is an issue). All the rest of the questions are ones which only you (or anyone else who might be thinking of dating or becoming friends with him) can answer. The only advice I'd dare give is just to use common sense and some caution. Observe how the person treats women when in a group setting, for instance. Trust is something that has to be earned, and sometimes it takes time. Stacy Smith wrote: Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After (NO
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:12:26 -0800 (PST) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My understanding is that there is no policy. I had always thought that God would forgive that individual for past transactions providing he/she goes through the process of rependence. Isn't that what the Gospel is all about, Jesus Christ paid the price, and that he would no longer remember our sins. Therefore, I find it inconceivable that the Church would hold something against an individual if God has already forgiven that individual. Is it Gods church or man's? Vic That is how I see it too, Vic. But it so just so happed that my mother divorced my father some 26 years ago, was excommunicated from the church, left five kids to my father, and ran off to be a LESBIAN!!! My father did nothing wrong! His second wife has been a full time employee of the Seattle not too long after it first opened and my Father has been active serving in the Seattle temple for many years. But, because he has had a divorce he was told he can't be sealer. He is now (age 70) and dying of colon cancer which he supposedly beat some 6 years ago but has now spread to his lung (golf ball size tumor) and I reason to my self that God never did rid him of cancer as was promised by blessings, faith, temple alters, and all that. I just don't get it. Oh well. What a drag. throwing my hands up Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After H
Jim It is a complicated world we live in. Indeed it is. It wasn't too long ago that a young person could commit murder here in Dallas and walk the streets on parole in a few years. Really. If a person is caught with LSD (acid) doing it on their own time-- they spent more time in jail then those miserable brats who committed murder. Dallas is not a safe place. If you come--be sure to pack a pistol because you might need it just to survive because you might pull up to the wrong gas station and not even know it until it's too late. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After Havi
This doesn't violate the charter. All people have the opportunity to repent and change their lives. There are a few sins that are not repented of in this life, primarily murder. Sexual sin is very serious. Alma tells us that it is third in severity, after murder and denying the Holy Ghost. The reality is, not all bishops and stake presidents are well versed in handling such things. Some are extremely stern in the repentance process, while others are so afraid to lose the person, will go to any lengths not to excommunicate. Be aware of that as you consider dating people. You will have to determine from the relationship just how repentant the person really has been. If it is sexual sin, you can generally tell how changed they are by how they act on dates. If they want to neck and kiss a lot, you can have the idea that the person has not restrained himself enough. Necking outside of marriage is, after all, a sin, according to President Kimball. A person who has shown true remorse for sin, will not play on the edge of the cliff, but will stay far from it. The true exsmoker doesn't hold a cigarette in his fingers, unlit or lit. And someone who has repented of sexual sins will not risk being in the wrong places doing the wrong things. Criminals need the chance to repent and change also. You have the right to choose not to date this guy. However, don't forget to be a friend. This will help him to continue on his progress to exaltation. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After Havin
Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In GoodStandingAfter Hav
There is really only one question here that anyone on this list can answer, I'm afraid, and that is what the general policy is regarding people who have committed crimes. If they have paid their debt to society, and undergone whatever action the Church authorities involved determined, then that person is forgiven. The atonement is infinite, covering all sins except the sin against the Holy Ghost (there is another category, the shedding of innocent blood, which we are told involves some additional action, but I assume that neither of these sins is an issue). All the rest of the questions are ones which only you (or anyone else who might be thinking of dating or becoming friends with him) can answer. The only advice I'd dare give is just to use common sense and some caution. Observe how the person treats women when in a group setting, for instance. Trust is something that has to be earned, and sometimes it takes time. Stacy Smith wrote: Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After H
Stacy, some practical thoughts. If you reflect on this question with any degree of honesty, you already know that there are some things we simply do not ever forgive, notwithstanding the doctrines of the Church and the principles of repentence. It seems to me that societies and cultures deem certain acts or types of behavior to be so threatening or offensive that those offenders can never really effectively pay their debt to society. In other times and places there were different categories of specific offenses that were unforgivable. Today we have our own set. The people we now categorize as sex offenders receive the most severe and lasting stigma. I think it would be a mistake for you to engage with such an individual, not necessarily because of any of his wrongdoing or propensities for evil, but rather, because he will likely ever be burdened with the social stigma, and if you associate with him, you will have to willingly share that burden. This is from the personal perspective of one who carries such a stigma. Since I became legally divorced I have been classified a deadbeat dad, a despicable criminal in the eyes of the state, and I have learned that while many people claim to be compassionate and forgiving, much of the time they don't really mean it in any substantive sense. As soon as they learn about my criminal status, they are automatically filled with righteous hatred. There is an implicit understanding that bad people deserve nothing but contempt. In fact someone said as much to me at one time, right here on this list. I can testify, it would take a very special relationship to get me to believe that people will ever trust me again. I suggest that the very fact that you express doubt about the efficacy of atonement and repentance are indications that this isn't a relationship for you to pursue. Thoughts along the same line--there is an interesting public debate currently heating up on this criminal history issue. Some civil rights advocates now complain that public access to criminal history data violates the constitutional prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, since it effectively becomes a life sentence for individuals whose names are listed. This becomes complicated and confused with other cultural values, since many are so vehemently opposed to the death penalty. It is a complicated world we live in. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In GoodStandingAfter H
Jim Cobabe wrote: It is a complicated world we live in. Indeed. Here's a bit of cybersalve which I hope will help ease the pain a little. In fact, two things. First of all, there's a difference between pain (and I mean emotional pain, not just physical pain) and suffering. Pain we can't do anything about. Suffering is our reaction to it, and it is under our control, although that's not to say it's *easy*. The second thing is to consider a flower. One that you really like (I like poppies, for instance). Do I love the poppy for what it *does*? No, I love the poppy for what it *is*. Just so does God love us all for what we are: his children. It's hard to think lofty thoughts when we're mired in the telestiality of mortality. Just try to remember that poppies rise up from the mire. And so can we, with a little help from our friends and a free gift from God. Hope this helps any who read it. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
