RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
My churches always taught no sexual union before marriage and no extramarital affairs either. It's what they didn't teach about the other doctrines I've come to appreciate. Stacy. At 06:12 PM 11/06/2003 -0900, you wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. I agree. There is no inadequacy in the missionary program. OTOH as long as I've been online I have run across members, often of long standing or even born in the Church, who seem to feel that one church is about as good as another, and that this one is extraordinary only because it is the one they grew up in. This isn't just the best church, it is the ONLY one that teaches correct doctrine. I'm not against the truth that I see preached in other churches. I'm all for it. I just don't see nearly as much as I see here. And the gap is much wider in my perception than it is for most of the saints. By contrast, those in other churches are in desperate need of our missionaries because their gospel isn't much improved over the philosophies of men that they could learn down at the corner pub. For an example, it astounds me that many Protestant congregations never teach the value or desirability of chastity before marriage and fidelity after marriage. They don't teach tithing or Sabbath observance. A lot of them don't even teach their members how to pray, or the importance of repentance. I guess I just get defensive when others seem unaware of HOW blessed we are to have the guidance of true prophets. Then I hear them defending these other denominations, and I'm afraid they just don't understand how fortunate they are. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
I'll have to remember this one. The fact is that some people are confused and do not feel they are being totally taught correctly on this point. I have a friend who took the missionary discussions and decided not to join. Because missionaries are taught not to put down any other churches they may mistakenly be too soft about the need for a restoration. I've seen confusion. Stacy. At 01:57 PM 11/06/2003 -0500, you wrote: On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:14:18 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a concern that I have, probably a futile concern. How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --JWR I find that an anology usually works, especially for those of inadequate education. First, though, the word true can mean many things. Here, I believe it is used to mean genuine, or exact, conforming to a standard. My favorite anology here is the broken mirror. When the great apostasy occured, the mirror (ie The TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING Gospel) was shattered. Churches were built from the fragments that were left (thus SOME truth). When Joseph Smith restored the Gospel and had all the keys handed to him, he had, once again, a complete mirror--thus the only TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING church. val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
I understand all of the above, however, I go back to Joseph Smith in which he was commanded to join none of them. Helping them on some project may appear to be wonderful, but doesn't it suggest to some who have gotten mixed signals that we no longer hold the doctrine of the restoration of the gospel true? My friend got such a mixed message while studying with the missionaries. Stacy. At 11:05 PM 11/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: I have mixed feelings about befriending other churches. It seems to me that we should befriend individuals and not false churches. After all, false churches teach false doctrine and in doing so they fight against the truth. If false churches aren't the church of the devil, what is? Maybe nothing is, do you think? But John, EVERY CHURCH is a false church other than the Lords (this one). And, frankly, given some of the lessons I have heard, ours is sometimes a false church! It's hard not to love someone who loves the Lord, even if they don't have it all quite right. It's hard not to be grateful to someone who thinks enough of you to try to save you, even though they can't. Working with others to do good works is not a bad thing. We have prophets today to help us sort these kinds of issues out. If the prophet says it is OK, then it is OK with me. It's not that the prophet is right in all things; after all, he is just a man. However, in this area, I think that he listens to the counsel of the Lord. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:14:18 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a concern that I have, probably a futile concern. How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --JWR I find that an anology usually works, especially for those of inadequate education. First, though, the word true can mean many things. Here, I believe it is used to mean genuine, or exact, conforming to a standard. My favorite anology here is the broken mirror. When the great apostasy occured, the mirror (ie The TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING Gospel) was shattered. Churches were built from the fragments that were left (thus SOME truth). When Joseph Smith restored the Gospel and had all the keys handed to him, he had, once again, a complete mirror--thus the only TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING church. val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Jim Cobabe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. I agree. There is no inadequacy in the missionary program. OTOH as long as I've been online I have run across members, often of long standing or even born in the Church, who seem to feel that one church is about as good as another, and that this one is extraordinary only because it is the one they grew up in. This isn't just the best church, it is the ONLY one that teaches correct doctrine. I'm not against the truth that I see preached in other churches. I'm all for it. I just don't see nearly as much as I see here. And the gap is much wider in my perception than it is for most of the saints. By contrast, those in other churches are in desperate need of our missionaries because their gospel isn't much improved over the philosophies of men that they could learn down at the corner pub. For an example, it astounds me that many Protestant congregations never teach the value or desirability of chastity before marriage and fidelity after marriage. They don't teach tithing or Sabbath observance. A lot of them don't even teach their members how to pray, or the importance of repentance. I guess I just get defensive when others seem unaware of HOW blessed we are to have the guidance of true prophets. Then I hear them defending these other denominations, and I'm afraid they just don't understand how fortunate they are. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:45:22 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thought you might like to read a short paper I wrote which may have some application to the question. George [Nothing by George follows.] Wow! That WAS a short paper! *jeep! --Chet PS: The actual paper really was worth waiting for, George! The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:43:26 + Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I note that the Church is independent of all other churches in terms of doctrine, programs, missionary work, ordinances, and other matters of theology and administration... Ok, Tom. I buy your explanation. thumbs up How about you JWR, do you buy it too? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
The Catholics are using the Mormon building for their own release time seminary per Church News article. I'm sure the relationship between the LDS and Catholic church will grow and strengthen because of things like this. I'm hoping that it will put us on a road of mutual respect and appreciation that will last for a long time until the future. What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Paul-- your posting should certainly liven up things on Zion for a while :) I am not very articulate, and certainly am not a scriptorian. that said, here's my take on your comment. the two churches are still here, but I think you are mistaken in stating that the LDS position has changed. we still hold to the same doctrine that we always have taught. President Hinckley, from the start has encouraged all of us, and led out by example, to befriend those not of our faith in as many ways as possible. I think that what President Hinckley is trying to demonstrate to us is that it is possible to adhere to your own doctrine, and still be helpful and friendly to those not of our faith. I will leave the doctrinal discussion to others. looking forward to the pending discussion. Bob Taylor The Catholics are using the Mormon building for their own release time seminary per Church News article. I'm sure the relationship between the LDS and Catholic church will grow and strengthen because of things like this. I'm hoping that it will put us on a road of mutual respect and appreciation that will last for a long time until the future. What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Bob Taylor wrote: the two churches are still here, but I think you are mistaken in stating that the LDS position has changed. we still hold to the same doctrine that we always have taught. President Hinckley, from the start has encouraged all of us, and led out by example, to befriend those not of our faith in as many ways as possible. I think that what President Hinckley is trying to demonstrate to us is that it is possible to adhere to your own doctrine, and still be helpful and friendly to those not of our faith. I have mixed feelings about befriending other churches. It seems to me that we should befriend individuals and not false churches. After all, false churches teach false doctrine and in doing so they fight against the truth. If false churches aren't the church of the devil, what is? Maybe nothing is, do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
John W. Redelfs wrote: I have mixed feelings about befriending other churches. It seems to me that we should befriend individuals and not false churches. After all, false churches teach false doctrine and in doing so they fight against the truth. If false churches aren't the church of the devil, what is? Maybe nothing is, do you think? What's the alternative to befriending other churches? Actually the way the Church interacts with other churchs is purely the business of the prophet and the first councils of the Church. I support President Hinckely 100% on this one. It's his call. I note that the Church is independent of all other churches in terms of doctrine, programs, missionary work, ordinances, and other matters of theology and administration. We tend to cooperate where we see a need that we can meet or where cooperation will strengthen a response to some compassionate or disaster relief. We try to be good neighbours. For example the local United Church of Canada has all of its benches and most of its other furniture from donations from us. As we have had excess or older chairs or tables or whatever we have donated it to them. The local Lutherans are also helped that way. The United Church had to renovate their building not too many years back and the LDS community was very active in the fundraising. I supported that completely except that we have one of our buildings in town that has caused us a lot of grief with some structural deficiencies and I proposed at High Council that we just give them our dud of a building and start over with a nice new one. That got a laugh, but didn't happen. Anyway I had the very real sense that my neighbors and friends of other faiths should have a place to worship that paralleled the beautiful buildings that we enjoyed. Never mind that they can't get their act together to fund their own needs the way we do, it's still a shame that their buildings are of such a lower standard by comparison. By helping with the fundraising we were able to adjust that disparity in a measure. And we have made friendships that are marvelous in the process. These are just ordinary people, church going people, who haven't seen the light... yet. Last week the United Church minister called me up and asked if he could use one of our churches for a funeral for one of his members as he was afraid it would be too big for his building. We found him a good place and offered all sorts of other support. In the end one of the speakers at the funeral was a former stake president who had worked with the deceased in the school system. It was a great day of cooperation and mutual respect. And I got to sing Amazing Grace in the South Hill Chapel. It doesn't get any better than that. Tom I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:08 AM, Paul Osborne wrote: What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul, I'm not convinced that much has changed. Let's take a look at some examples: 1: The land on which the Cathedral of the Madeline in Salt Lake stands was donated by the Church. The same goes for a Jewish synagogue. 2: The LDS Christmas Carol Far, Far Away On Judea's Plains was written for a Catholic mass held in the Saint George Tabernacle. The choir was LDS, and their director trained them to sing the Latin mass and composed the carol for the occasion. 3: Before the advent of LDS Humanitarian Services, the Church worked with Catholic Charities to help alleviate famine in Africa. There are many more examples, as well. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Thought you might like to read a short paper I wrote which may have some application to the question. George - Original Message - From: Harold Stuart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:08 AM, Paul Osborne wrote: What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul, I'm not convinced that much has changed. Let's take a look at some examples: 1: The land on which the Cathedral of the Madeline in Salt Lake stands was donated by the Church. The same goes for a Jewish synagogue. 2: The LDS Christmas Carol Far, Far Away On Judea's Plains was written for a Catholic mass held in the Saint George Tabernacle. The choir was LDS, and their director trained them to sing the Latin mass and composed the carol for the occasion. 3: Before the advent of LDS Humanitarian Services, the Church worked with Catholic Charities to help alleviate famine in Africa. There are many more examples, as well. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
George Cobabe wrote: Whoops - No attachments allowed. Here is the paper: The Only True Church Nice work George. I especially like that you included this passage: . Every serious seeker for the truth needs to ask what a testimony of a living prophet would do in their lives? How would it help them in their daily struggles? How would it change and bless their life? The answer to this question tells why a prophet is so important as part of the .only true and living church upon the earth. . and that while your paper did not shrink for the strength and uniqueness of our position it showed that we are friendly to, cooperative with and supportive of our sister churches. There is a great power in comparing what Joseph Smith said then and what Boyd K Packer says now. Things really haven't changed, at least from our point of view. What maybe has changed to a certain extent is that at least all the churches in the country aren't in an uproar against us as they once were. Being a good neighbour has paid off over time. Witness the coalistion of Christian ministers in SLC coming together to criticize the street preachers behavior. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
