RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-19 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 04:11 PM 11/18/2003 -0700, Uncle Tom wrote:
The wise and venerable Till explains:

  Realizing that it was satire really helped, I stopped being
 offended by the seriousness of some of the absurdities.

If that stuff is satire then why am I not allowed to guffaw loudly at
all the appropriate places (virtually every line) during the movies?
Those movies, to me are almost as funny as Airplane. But nobody else is
laughing, and those of the female persuasion in my household don't
appreciate my noisy enjoyment. What gives?


Till gets in trouble for his obvious great mirth also.  The vicar, what's 
his name, ah ... Mr Collins, is so funny that we can't help but 
guffaw.  And Mr Bingley's brother-in-law, zonked out on the settle, is too 
funny for words.  Especially combined with the only memorable line that he 
has, She prefers ragout, how very singular!  or something to that 
effect.  But Collins takes the buffoonery cake for sure.  And the mother, 
what a hoot.

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-19 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 11:30 PM 11/18/2003 +, St Stephen wrote:

Hey, I'm Tom Bombadil, Tommy Bom-bom-ba-dil-lo!
My head is a sieve, and my brain is like Bril-lo!
I dance and I sing, and I sing and I dance!
I'm a jolly old godling in search of my pants!


You've certainly caught the essence, if not quite the right words.  guffaw

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-19 Thread Tom Matkin

The ever commendable, praiseworthy, laudable, admirable, precious,
estimable and venerable Till wrote:
 
 At 07:49 AM 11/19/2003 -0700, St Stephen wrote:
 At 04:47 AM 11/19/2003, The elfen Till wrote:
 
 Till gets in trouble for his obvious great mirth . . .
 
 And I always get in trouble for my obvious great girth.
 
 
 And Till started out in trouble with his obvious great birth
 
 
 Till, who grew up being labeled a mistake

But now is enjoyed for his obvious great worth.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread RB Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:30 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [ZION] The Return of the King


 At 04:18 AM 11/18/2003 -0900, BLT wrote:
 RB Scott wrote:
 Ah. The Harry Potter syndrome. Now I understand.,
 
 Now you understand and I am confused.  What is this Harry Potter
 syndrome?  I didn't like the Harry Potter movie that I saw.  In fact, I
 never went to see the next one.  And I have never read one of the
 books.  Is it possible that you are just too old to like fantasy?  I
 thought you were my age.  I am the same age as Mel Perkins.


 Yes, Tolkein has redeeming social value.  I have always been fascinated
 with his characterizations and I thought the movie version did a
 reasonable
 job of bringing them to life.  Potter, on the other hand, while
 entertaining, reminds me a great deal of the Hardy Boys (turns handle on
 crank for the next installment).  Has it's use, but ...


Ah yes, redeeming social value: an eye-of-the-beholder matter if there
ever was one.

RBS

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 08:58 AM 11/18/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote:


 Yes, Tolkein has redeeming social value.  I have always been fascinated
 with his characterizations and I thought the movie version did a
 reasonable
 job of bringing them to life.  Potter, on the other hand, while
 entertaining, reminds me a great deal of the Hardy Boys (turns handle on
 crank for the next installment).  Has it's use, but ...
Ah yes, redeeming social value: an eye-of-the-beholder matter if there
ever was one.


Yes, we was smiling when we wrote that, wondering what sort of comments it 
might provoke.

Till

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread RB Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:11 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [ZION] The Return of the King


 RB Scott wrote:
 I liked Harry Potter and have read all the books (because my
 children have).
 I liked the movie as well. Ditto Lord of The Rings.  However, as a rule,
 neither are my cups of tea. My tastes and interests run more to the likes
 of: Dickens, Irving, Roth, Salinger, Dickinson, Potok, Wolfe. I thought
 Judith Freeman's (my first of her) was well crafted.

 I love Dickens, but find Salinger more depressing than any other author
 I've ever read.  And being a moderate to severe manic depressive
 myself, I
 don't care for him on that account.  I don't forgive authors who depress
 me.  I read WE THE LIVING by Ayn Rand a number of years ago, and I have
 steadfastly refused to read anything else by her.  My depressions don't
 need any help.

I'm surprised you didn't find Dickens depressing too, if quaint.  Arguably,
Salinger and Rand's stuff gets to you because it's more contemporary.


 Tell me, if I were to read a book by Roth, which one should I try first,
 something that would make me feel good about being alive?

Have you read nothing by Roth? Surely you've heard of Portnoy's Complaint?
But if you didn't like Salinger, I'd worry you also wouldn't like Roth.  But
let me think on a good First Roth book -- probably The Great American
Novel. I'd say Roth's stuff sort of occupies the middle ground between,
say, authors like Chaim Potok and J.D. Salinger.  Others in that middle
would include Irving (The World According to Garp, Cider House Rules, The
Fouth Hand etc) and Wolfe (Bonfire of the Vanities).


Ron

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread RB Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:22 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

 Last winter I decided to take the Beecroft challenge and see what really
 was in Pride and Prejudice, since there was a hole in my late 18th/early
 19th century British literature experience anyway.  The first
 read left me
 a bit lost and still wondering.  So I read it again and began to find the
 treasures.  Realizing that it was satire really helped, I stopped being
 offended by the seriousness of some of the absurdities.  I have
 since read
 most of her other novels and re-read P/P at least twice more and
 find them
 quite intriguing.  Her style has to grow on you, I guess.  I really like
 the BBC production of P/P also.  The character portrayals are excellent.


Till, you must have had a premonition that I am also a Jane Austen fan,
although initially (way back in high school) I recoiled at her work because
it seemed too girlie.   After several failed attempts to hooked on PP,
two good friends (both female) persauded me to give Persuasion a go...and
I've been an Austen fan ever since. Ironically, at this very moment our
family (all females but me) is plowing through the JA movies and books.

RBS

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread RB Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:50 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [ZION] The Return of the King



 John W. Redelfs wrote:
 ---
 Tell me, if I were to read a book by Roth, which one should I try first,
 something that would make me feel good about being alive?
 ---

 I read everything by Phillip Roth when I was too young to know better.
 Entertaining and sinfully engaging fiction, but many of the situations
 are seriously X-rated.

Yes indeed, Roth's fiction is definitely sinfully engaging

 You probably won't find his works on the shelves of Deseret Book.  I
 think today that constitutes a serious indictment.

Ah, Deseret Book: the final arbiter of great writing. I was surprised to
find Chaucer there. Someone's bolts must be loose.

RBS

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Tom Matkin
The wise and venerable Till explains:

  Realizing that it was satire really helped, I stopped being
 offended by the seriousness of some of the absurdities.  
 

If that stuff is satire then why am I not allowed to guffaw loudly at
all the appropriate places (virtually every line) during the movies?
Those movies, to me are almost as funny as Airplane. But nobody else is
laughing, and those of the female persuasion in my household don't
appreciate my noisy enjoyment. What gives?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tom-
 I found the Tolkein movie that I watched (something about rings
 I think)

Just curious if there's a Tolkien movie that isn't about rings...

 to be a tiresome road movie where the heroes kept getting into
 impossible situations for no apparent reason and then being
 rescued in the best Greek tragedy tradition by deux ex machina.

Not sure why you find _deus ex machina_ to be tiresome, though in any 
case I disagree that much if any of the conflict resolution in Tolkien's 
writings qualifies as such.  (Qualifies as _deus ex machina_, I mean.  I 
won't argue about matters of taste, like whether a given story is 
tiresome.)  As for getting into impossible situations for no apparent 
reason, you may have to give some examples to clue in those of us who 
don't know what you're referring to.

 The Potter stuff is similar, but at least mildly entertaining,

Apparently there are a few others, here and there, who find the Tolkien 
movies at least mildly entertaining.

 I just prefer reading Narnia and having the challenge of sorting
 out the strong Christian symbols running around the outside of
 the storyline.

Allegory is certainly much easier on the reader, as long as he shares 
with the author the underlying knowledge necessary to interpret the 
allegory correctly.  Tolkien, though himself a devoted Christian (in 
fact, he converted C. S. Lewis, if I recall correctly), explicitly 
denied any allegorical intent in his writings.  The result is that the 
reader has to work a little harder, dig a little deeper, and try to 
understand his symbolism within the framework the author used to 
construct the fable -- which in essence is what Tolkien's so-called 
trilogy is.

Granted, not everyone enjoys such a mental workout.  They get little 
reward for their efforts, and thus find it tiresome.  Maybe that is what 
you were referring to, though since you were commenting on the recent 
movie version and not the books, I really don't know.  But I do know 
that since beginning to reread Tolkien in my forty-first year, I have 
been immensely enjoying the depth of imagery and texture of narrative 
that quite escaped the notice of my half-aged self two decades ago.  I 
certainly enjoy allegory as much as the next fellow, but my respect for 
Tolkien has deepened.

However, if the movie adaptations have left you with the sour taste of a 
contrived-resolution road movie, you perhaps ought not to waste your 
time reading the books.  I can only imagine what the spectre of Tom 
Bombadil would do to your blood pressure.

Hey, I'm Tom Bombadil, Tommy Bom-bom-ba-dil-lo!
My head is a sieve, and my brain is like Bril-lo!
I dance and I sing, and I sing and I dance!
I'm a jolly old godling in search of my pants!

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tilly-
 Last winter I decided to take the Beecroft challenge and see
 what really was in Pride and Prejudice

Till!  I'm flattered.  And glad to hear you enjoyed it, eventually at 
least.

 Her style has to grow on you, I guess.

Orson Scott Card, LDS writer of fiction/science fiction/fantasy, has 
complained that most present-day authors eschew developing the character 
of good guys because, as they claim, bad guys are more interesting.  
Card maintains that the good guys are actually far more interesting, and 
that evil is essentially banal.  That is exactly the viewpoint I get 
from Austen novels.  Her protagonists are interesting, engaging, 
honorable if flawed, while the antagonists are ultimately revealed to be 
veneer-thin and distastefully similar in their smallness.  Or that's my 
view of things.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote:
I liked Harry Potter and have read all the books (because my children have).
I liked the movie as well. Ditto Lord of The Rings.  However, as a rule,
neither are my cups of tea. My tastes and interests run more to the likes
of: Dickens, Irving, Roth, Salinger, Dickinson, Potok, Wolfe. I thought
Judith Freeman's (my first of her) was well crafted.
Well, I decided to honor your good taste by taking one of your suggestions, 
Ron.  I didn't want to read any porno, so I decided to read Wolfe instead 
of Roth.  I just got back from the public library where I checked out THE 
SHADOW OF THE TORTURER by Gene Wolfe.  I so glad that you recommended 
Wolfe, he has long been one of my favorite authors..

Heh, heh...  I'm just kidding.   I decided that you must have meant Tom 
Wolfe instead of Thomas Wolfe or Gene Wolfe, and I'm going to try THE 
BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES by Tom Wolfe.  And just to make my evening cultural 
I picked up the second Laura Croft TOMB RAIDERS from Blockbuster. lol

BTW, if you want to try a truly great Wolfe, read THE SHADOW OF THE 
TORTURER.  Of course, Gene writes on a little higher reading level than Tom 
Wolfe.

Hm I wonder if they will ever do a movie of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we
must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly,
soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President
Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR 

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread RB Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 6:52 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [ZION] The Return of the King
 
 
 -Tilly-
  Last winter I decided to take the Beecroft challenge and see
  what really was in Pride and Prejudice
 
 Till!  I'm flattered.  And glad to hear you enjoyed it, eventually at 
 least.
 
  Her style has to grow on you, I guess.
 
 Orson Scott Card, LDS writer of fiction/science fiction/fantasy, has 
 complained that most present-day authors eschew developing the character 
 of good guys because, as they claim, bad guys are more interesting.  
 Card maintains that the good guys are actually far more interesting, and 
 that evil is essentially banal.  That is exactly the viewpoint I get 
 from Austen novels.  Her protagonists are interesting, engaging, 
 honorable if flawed, while the antagonists are ultimately revealed to be 
 veneer-thin and distastefully similar in their smallness.  Or that's my 
 view of things.

Interesting view, Card's.  I'd say it's a mixed bag of good guys and bad. 

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread RB Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:17 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

 Heh, heh...  I'm just kidding.   I decided that you must have meant Tom 
 Wolfe instead of Thomas Wolfe or Gene Wolfe, and I'm going to try THE 
 BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES by Tom Wolfe.  And just to make my 
 evening cultural 
 I picked up the second Laura Croft TOMB RAIDERS from Blockbuster. lol
 
 BTW, if you want to try a truly great Wolfe, read THE SHADOW OF THE 
 TORTURER.  Of course, Gene writes on a little higher reading 
 level than Tom  Wolfe.

I'll stick with Tom. I'm a low brow kinda guy.

Ron

 

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread John W. Redelfs
RB Scott wrote:
I'll stick with Tom. I'm a low brow kinda guy.
What do you know about Thomas Wolfe who wrote Look Homeward, Angel?  I 
almost borrowed that one before I noticed Tom Wolfe right next to it on the 
shelf.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we
must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly,
soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President
Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR 

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[ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-18 Thread Gerald Smith
I also liked Harry Potter (the books are better than the movies), however
LOTR movies are very good, though I still love the books more.
I don't like much of Salinger. Am a big fan of Dickens and Irving.
Dickinson's poetry is some of the best there is: I can still hear the
flies buzzing.
One of the more intriguing books I'd read in my youth was: My Name Is
Asher Lev.  Potok's showing ultra-orthodox Jews struggling in a
Gentile-Christian world was great. And I always drink my orange juice
quickly, so the vitamins don't leak out.  
Haven't read much Wolfe nor any of Freeman's.
Mostly, I read doctrinal writings, science, and translations of ancient
writings. Reading Hugh Nibley in my early twenties almost destroyed my
brain for anything light hearted or easy. I had to retrain myself to read
lighter stuff (like Tolkien  ;-)

The LOTR is an event-driven story. The world in which the hobbits live is
drastically changed, and the epic doesn't end with the destruction of
Sauron, but with the reestablishment of the old hobbit order, with the
magic folk retiring to other lands over the seas. (for a good explanation
of Middle Earth, read Tolkien's Silmarillion, as he explains its entire
history).  It is an epic.  World war, huge years-long journeys, deaths,
and moments of hope are all included. Tolkien said he based it upon a
medieval Europe with Christian ideals laced within it. Several characters
emulate different traits of the Savior: Frodo is the lowly Redeemer and
destroyer of the darkness. Aragorn represents the returned King, who
conquers his enemies and reigns over a long period of peace. Sam is the
symbol of patience and hope in a hopeless situation, returning to the
Shire and restoring it after it is destroyed by Saruman (sorry, for those
of you who haven't read the book!). There are other symbols in the books,
showing that darkness can be destroyed, even when all is seemingly beyond
hope.


K'aya K'ama,

Gerald (Gary) Smith 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences,
Family History, Food Storage, etc.


RBS: 
I liked Harry Potter and have read all the books (because my children
have).
I liked the movie as well. Ditto Lord of The Rings.  However, as a rule,
neither are my cups of tea. My tastes and interests run more to the likes
of: Dickens, Irving, Roth, Salinger, Dickinson, Potok, Wolfe. I thought
Judith Freeman's (my first of her) was well crafted.

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-17 Thread RB Scott
Is this significant?

 -Original Message-
 From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 11:26 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [ZION] The Return of the King
 
 
 Tomorrow it is exactly one month until the opening of The Lord of the 
 Rings: The Return of the King on December 17th.  --JWR
 
 //
 
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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 //
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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-17 Thread hkpage
Yep!  Can't wait!  My husband and I are already making plans with another
couple in our branch (soon to be ward!) that we're friends with...we're
going to get a sitter or two for all of the kids and then do dinner and the
movie.

Heidi the fair


 [Original Message]
 From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 11/16/2003 10:25:52 PM
 Subject: [ZION] The Return of the King

 Tomorrow it is exactly one month until the opening of The Lord of the 
 Rings: The Return of the King on December 17th.  --JWR



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Re: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-17 Thread Grampa Bill in Savannah
RB Scott wrote:

Is this significant?
 

===
Grampa Bill comments:
   To some of us, it is!
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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-17 Thread RB Scott
Don't know what the question was about, but whatever it was: why is it
significant to some of you?

Ron

 -Original Message-
 From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 8:12 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [ZION] The Return of the King


 RB Scott wrote:

 Is this significant?
 
 
 ===
 Grampa Bill comments:
 To some of us, it is!

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Re: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-17 Thread Cousin Bill
From: RB Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Don't know what the question was about, but whatever it was: why
is it
significant to some of you?
--
Because some of us are huge Tolkein fans.

Cousin Bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Our country, right or wrong.  When
right, to be kept right.  When wrong,
to be put right. -- Carl Schurz

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[ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-16 Thread John W. Redelfs
Tomorrow it is exactly one month until the opening of The Lord of the 
Rings: The Return of the King on December 17th.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] The Return of the King

2003-11-16 Thread Ronn! Blankenship
At 07:25 PM 11/16/03 -0900, John W. Redelfs wrote:
Tomorrow it is exactly one month until the opening of The Lord of the 
Rings: The Return of the King on December 17th.  --JWR


Guess I ought to get around to renting and watching _The Two Towers_, then 
. . .



-- Ronn!  :)

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