Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
This I find to be true and it makes sense when we consider that even in the early church they would be able to excommunicate members for offenses. Finally, there is the clear reference to Esau as being hated by God. Even if this means loved less, isn't that conditional? I forget the reference. Stacy. At 08:14 PM 11/04/2003 -0800, you wrote: On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:47 PM, George Cobabe wrote: Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. I think this is a difficult point. Certain aspects of God's love are without question unconditional. For example, everyone is resurrected, no matter how badly they flunk the test of mortality. It's also interesting that even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive some degree of glory. On the other hand, it is possible to get the Lord very angry with you. Martin Harris comes to mind, for example. He failed to keep his covenants, and it was a long time before the Lord forgave him. Martin lost many of the blessings he otherwise would have had had he properly maintained the 118 pages, but his repentance was sincere. He was then permitted to hear the voice of God and see an angel. It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can repent of adultery. Clearly the atonement is not a blank check to commit sin. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
-Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think Elder Nelson got it wrong, merged two definitions that shouldn't have been merged. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
I agree Ron, and further think that the right question might be one of trying to figure out why we misunderstand what he has said. The first option ought to be to reconcile what I/You think he said with what we either understand or could learn from a better understanding of his message. It seems that this is the primary response from people on the list - and that pleases me. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:54 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? George, I think your comments are interesting and do reflect, to an extent, how we regard comments from various authorities. I happen to think that Elder Nelson's comments, generally, were provocative and instructive. However, I do believe he *inadvertantly* redefined terms that, in essence, could redefine what the church has taught for generations. My underwear doesn't bunch-up because of it nor do I quail at the thought of pointing out where he erred, IMO. Frankly, his coagulation has no impact whatsoever on how I apply the gospel in my life. How one applies the gospel in one's life, in the here and now, is the gospel's bottom line. IMO, what we believe about the great-by-and-by is relevant only if it shapes or re-shapes what we DO now. Elder Nelson's views, or similar ones, will not reshape how I DO in the here and now. Finally, it is refreshing to me that men at the top of Church have their own points of view about various teachings but remain reasonably consistent about the importance of DOING the word NOW because such leads to stronger and more stable individuals, families and and communities. IMO we would all be better off fewer 'DEFINITIONS' and lot more 'I DON'T KNOWS. For instance, more might be provoked to think. Ron Scott -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Yes, but that is a tough position to take. Like you I keep waiting for some correction from someone, but it does not seem to be happening. It is an interesting question to consider. How do we treat comments from authoritative sources that disagree with others such sources, or with the scriptures? It is too often a tendency to throw quotes rather than to think through a question, and now we find it so easy to dismiss quotes from Elder Nelson, an Apostle - and one that is not normally one to create such discussions. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:09 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think Elder Nelson got it wrong, merged two definitions that shouldn't have been merged. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
George Cobabe wrote: It is an interesting question to consider. How do we treat comments from authoritative sources that disagree with others such sources, or with the scriptures? It is too often a tendency to throw quotes rather than to think through a question, and now we find it so easy to dismiss quotes from Elder Nelson, an Apostle - and one that is not normally one to create such discussions. And as I pointed out in another post, Elder Nelson himself refers to the Savior's unconditional love in General Conference. He is actually contradicting himself with his February ENSIGN article. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Our characterizations and definitions of love itself are ambiguous at best. No surprise that discussions of this quality in the character and nature of God are fraught with difficulty. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, Elder Nelson says: --- Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is love, He will love me unconditionally, regardless... There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses unconditional love and blessing. Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and unconditional concepts. As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making synoymns of unconditional love and divine blessings. So did Elder Nelson. You'd better careful who you're calling anti-Christ JWR for you're about to violate your own bylaws (grin): I think President Hinckley has, over the years, been quite clear that God has unconditional love for each of us. Which doesn't have a whole lot to do with how we're judged in the great-by-and-by in the sky. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron Scott wrote: There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses unconditional love and blessing. Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. I would love to read one or two of these many sources you speak of. I know that President Hinckley is a very loving man, and that God loves sinners or he would not love me, nor would he have provided the unspeakable gift of his Only Begotten Son as a sacrifice for sin. Perhaps it would satisfy both sides in the discussion to say that God's love is unconditional, but the fruits of that love, such as eternal life, etc. are conditional. In other words, God loves even the Sons of Perdition, but it isn't going to do them much good because even his omnipotence cannot save them from Outer Darkness unless they repent and obey divine law. Rather than argue over terms like love vs. blessings or conditional vs. unconditional, I would rather just remember the true principle expressed in the Book of Mormon thusly: Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness. (Alma 41: 10) And What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. (Alma 42: 25) Actually, I think that people have a tendency to talk past each other when discussing this particular topic. Nobody would deny that a loving Father in Heaven blesses all those of his children that he able to. But he CANNOT bless those who, using their moral agency, place themselves beyond the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ by refusing to repent of their sins and obey divine law. BTW, I don't believe that President Hinckley disagrees with Elder Russell M. Nelson on this subject. I don't believe that President Hinckley has ever suggested that God's unconditional love will result in the same blessings for the unrepentant that he conditionally bestows upon the obedient. And unless I terribly misunderstood your post, I don't believe that you have suggested that he does. God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves all his children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability to bless those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and obedience. He not only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. Is God's love unconditional? Yes or no depending on what you mean by unconditional. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron Scott wrote: As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making synoymns of unconditional love and divine blessings. So did Elder Nelson. You'd better careful who you're calling anti-Christ JWR for you're about to violate your own bylaws (grin) I don't believe that I have called anyone anti-Christ. Perhaps I have been misunderstood. I don't think that Elder Nelson calls anyone anti-Christ except Nehor in the Book of Mormon. And there he is on sound footing. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, Elder Nelson says: --- Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is love, He will love me unconditionally, regardless... These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and unconditional concepts. --- The whole article, explaining from the scriptures the highly conditional quality of God's love may be read at http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2003.htm/ensign%20february%202003.htm/divine%20love.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0 Which leads me to ask another question? Is a loving parent strict or permissive? And is Heavenly Father a strict or permissive parent? Finally, how loving is it to teach false doctrine that will certainly motivate some to procrastinate their repentance until it is too late to repent? Or is it ever too late to repent? In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron Scott wrote: There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses unconditional love and blessing. Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. Ron, I searched the Church website and found 115 hits on unconditional love in General Conference, but they came from Maxwell, Ashton, Faust, Ballard, Nelson himself, and others but not one came from President Hinckley. Could you direct me to one of these many sources you speak of? My survey doesn't really prove anything because it was cursory. But I would be interested in learning how President Hinckley thinks of unconditional love. Actually, I think this discussion is a tempest in a teapot. Nobody doubts that God loves each of his children more and more perfectly than any mortal creature could, even more than a mother loves her newborn baby. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you suggested that it is God's blessings that are conditional. However, it might be useful to think of God's love as conditional inasmuch as the blessings most definitely are, and Elder Nelson makes a good point when he suggests that the phrase unconditional love might confuse some people into supposing that they can have the blessings without the repentance. And that simply is not true doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Ron Scott wrote: There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses unconditional love and blessing. Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. Ron, I searched the Church website and found 115 hits on unconditional love in General Conference, but they came from Maxwell, Ashton, Faust, Ballard, Nelson himself, and others but not one came from President Hinckley. Could you direct me to one of these many sources you speak of? My survey doesn't really prove anything because it was cursory. But I would be interested in learning how President Hinckley thinks of unconditional love. I'll dig some stuff out tomorrow. But not tonight. But, I'd guess that Maxwell, Ashton and Ballard would have similar comments. At least, I hope they would. Actually, I think this discussion is a tempest in a teapot. Nobody doubts that God loves each of his children more and more perfectly than any mortal creature could, even more than a mother loves her newborn baby. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you suggested that it is God's blessings that are conditional. Discussions like this are ALWAYS tempest in teapots. But, we do work out big time on the performance side of things, which is good, by and large. It is not so good when such exercises diminish the important role God love/charity/compassion plays in all of this. Worse, when one gets hung up on performance stuff one inevitably begins to measure one's own performance against another and pretty soon you have a bunch of holier thans parading their accomplishments, as opposed to recognizing that It is by the grace we are saved, after all we can do. Those may not be the exact words, but they do illustrate to me (I realize others interpret this scripture differently) that no matter how hard we work, and no matter how good we are, none of us will make it without Christ's grace. However, it might be useful to think of God's love as conditional inasmuch as the blessings most definitely are, and Elder Nelson makes a good point when he suggests that the phrase unconditional love might confuse some people into supposing that they can have the blessings without the repentance. And that simply is not true doctrine. Well, see, the paragraph above underscores my point. There is a difference between unconditional love and blessings. The former is freely given and is always available. The latter is contingent upon consistency and heeding His counsel. ANyway, I'm tired...and so til tomorrow. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. In conference yet George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:32 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? SNIP God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves all his children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability to bless those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and obedience. He not only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. Is God's love unconditional? Yes or no depending on what you mean by unconditional. I may have posted too hastily and therefore didn't clarify well. Fact is, I think we agree. But, this whole issue gets so bolluxed-up (witness the confusing faith/works/grace piece in ths months Engisn) that I'll try one more time to explain myself. God's love for us is unconditional. Because he loves, he is ever-ready to go to bat for us. That is, he is ready to fogive us our errors when we are ready to acknowledge them and repent. It follows that he can't begin to bless us UNTIL we choose to be obedient, nor can be bestow more blessing on us unless we consistently heed His counsel. God's unconditional love has absolutely nothing to the with the heretical doctrine of eat, drink, be merry and repent on your death you wrote about so colorfully. No doubt God, because He loves us unconditionally, can, and probably does forgive someone who sincerely repents on his deathbed. But, God can not begin to bestow blessing -- okay, call them rewards if you insist -- until one has begun to live by His word. Finally, recall that Christ's unconditional love for us -- his grace -- guarantees all of us eternal life. What kind of eternal life we are given depends on His assessment of our faithfulness. I hope this is clearer than the earlier post. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:47 PM, George Cobabe wrote: Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. I think this is a difficult point. Certain aspects of God's love are without question unconditional. For example, everyone is resurrected, no matter how badly they flunk the test of mortality. It's also interesting that even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive some degree of glory. On the other hand, it is possible to get the Lord very angry with you. Martin Harris comes to mind, for example. He failed to keep his covenants, and it was a long time before the Lord forgave him. Martin lost many of the blessings he otherwise would have had had he properly maintained the 118 pages, but his repentance was sincere. He was then permitted to hear the voice of God and see an angel. It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can repent of adultery. Clearly the atonement is not a blank check to commit sin. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
