[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On 2007-05-21 07:39:57 +0200, Martijn Pieters [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [...] However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? No. Use buildout. Nothing will be installed into the system Python, everything will be wired correctly. Use buildout. :) -- Christian Zagrodnick gocept gmbh co. kg · forsterstrasse 29 · 06112 halle/saale www.gocept.com · fon. +49 345 12298894 · fax. +49 345 12298891 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Hi, On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 08:12 +0200, Christian Zagrodnick wrote: On 2007-05-21 07:39:57 +0200, Martijn Pieters [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [...] However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? No. Use buildout. Nothing will be installed into the system Python, everything will be wired correctly. Use buildout. :) I agree, buildout is exceptional. I use ~/.buildout/default.cfg to direct all those zope eggs to a known directory, system python remains clean. Regards, Darryl ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?
Hi, [off topic] On Sun, 2007-05-20 at 20:11 -0400, Gary Poster wrote: Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Could anyone share a way to `bootstrap` python in a buildout? Best regards, Darryl ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Martijn Pieters wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. I run dozens of development instances on my laptop, all with the same Macports python 2.4 installation. Creating a separate python build for each of these would be impractical, to say the least. However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? workingenv, v-python or buildout are certainly recommended when doing egg-based development. Some go as far as building their own Python (in which case they're probably ok with installing stuff into that Python's site-packages), but unless I'm doing deployment, I'm not one of them. -- http://worldcookery.com -- Professional Zope documentation and training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On May 21, 2007, at 9:20 AM, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Martijn Pieters wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. I run dozens of development instances on my laptop, all with the same Macports python 2.4 installation. Creating a separate python build for each of these would be impractical, to say the least. However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? workingenv, v-python or buildout are certainly recommended when doing egg-based development. Some go as far as building their own Python (in which case they're probably ok with installing stuff into that Python's site-packages), but unless I'm doing deployment, I'm not one of them. Right. If you are using workingenv or buildout (I'm unfamiliar with v-python) for everything then system Python might be ok. I don't use system Python for the same kind of reason that I stopped using Zope 2's reload years ago--I've seen people get burned with annoying I just wasted time trying to debug and if I had just used a standalone Python I would have been fine. I'm actually in-between, anyway. I have a system Python and a dev Python; I don't generally install anything in the dev Python, while I do sometimes install things in the system Python (e.g., easy_install) and it actually sometimes begins with more installed than a normal Python (for instance, when I'm on a Mac, which is often). I then feel comfortable sharing the dev Python across builds because I know it is clean. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I then feel comfortable sharing the dev Python across builds because I know it is clean. The stuff that gets installed in the system Python's is usually not an issue for Zope applications (I've never had a Zope-related issue with those things), but I always use a clean Python just to be safe in case something odd gets added to the system Python. Ubuntu and the various RedHat-derived systems (Fedora, CentOS) add enough to the system Python that I'd rather avoid them for applications regardless. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Chaos is the score upon which reality is written. --Henry Miller ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 10:39:22AM -0400, Fred Drake wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I then feel comfortable sharing the dev Python across builds because I know it is clean. The stuff that gets installed in the system Python's is usually not an issue for Zope applications (I've never had a Zope-related issue with those things), but I always use a clean Python just to be safe in case something odd gets added to the system Python. Ubuntu and the various RedHat-derived systems (Fedora, CentOS) add enough to the system Python that I'd rather avoid them for applications regardless. I think developers and system- or application maintainers have different viewpoints in this. As a developer it might be a good idea to have different installed pythons in different environments to be sure that some modules (or python itself) meet different requirements. But as system maintainer I like to keep things simple. I do not want similar trees of python installations all over the place if it can be avoided. -- __ Nothing is as subjective as reality Reinoud van Leeuwen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xs4all.nl/~reinoud __ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On 5/21/07, Reinoud van Leeuwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a developer it might be a good idea to have different installed pythons in different environments to be sure that some modules (or python itself) meet different requirements. But as system maintainer I like to keep things simple. I do not want similar trees of python installations all over the place if it can be avoided. That's understandable. I don't think developers want to have extra trees all over the place so much as they want one they can rely on. The system Pythons generally aren't that, since various extra software gets installed there. It may also be built with different settings for things like Unicode character size. We've found it invaluable to have a separate clean Python that doesn't have additional packages installed into it (ever), and then our applications can provide what they need without polluting other applications. We can know what options the Python was built with. It also won't be affected by system updates. Once we have such a clean Python, we can share it across however many applications have need of it. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Chaos is the score upon which reality is written. --Henry Miller ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On May 21, 2007, at 1:39 AM, Martijn Pieters wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; No. It has never been fine for any aspect of development. If you develop with your system Python and deploy with a custom environment, then you've added a variable that is different between the two environments. Also, system Python's are often hobbled in ways that hurt development. I sometimes get really weird error reports that are traced to system Pythons. People who report problems to me that result from using a system Python make me angry and make me want to not answer their questions or otherwise help them any more. System Python's have their place. The are appropriate for casual Python users and small one-off scripts, but not much else IMO. the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. I run dozens of development instances on my laptop, all with the same Macports python 2.4 installation. Creating a separate python build for each of these would be impractical, to say the least. You don't have to use a Python per project to avoid the system Python. Just create a separate from-source installation and use that single installation. *Never* install anything into that installation. Whether you are using eggs or not, any packages not included in a Python build from source should be managed in your project area. Of course, eggs make this easier. (IMO, it is also reasonable to include a Python build in a buildout, as long as it automated and as long as you don't mind the extra disk space usage and build time. I prefer to use a shared clean Python myself.) However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? Yes, as others have mentioned, you should use workingenv or buildout. (I wrote buildout because workingenv didn't provide enough control or automation for my needs.) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?
On May 21, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
Darryl Cousins wrote:
On Sun, 2007-05-20 at 20:11 -0400, Gary Poster wrote:
Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised
for development work...try a standalone one?
Could anyone share a way to `bootstrap` python in a buildout?
[python]
recipe = zc.recipe.cmmi
url = /url/to/python.tgz
Assuming that you want to use this Python in another recipe, you'll
also need to add the option:
executable = ${buildout:parts-directory}/python/bin/python
The cmmi recipe is to general to generate this option automatically.
It would be easy and nice to generate a python recipe that extended
the basic cmmi recipe to compute the executable option.
Jim
--
Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python
Powered!
CTO (540) 361-1714
http://www.python.org
Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
___
Zope3-dev mailing list
Zope3-dev@zope.org
Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Fulton wrote: On May 21, 2007, at 1:39 AM, Martijn Pieters wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; No. It has never been fine for any aspect of development. If you develop with your system Python and deploy with a custom environment, then you've added a variable that is different between the two environments. Also, system Python's are often hobbled in ways that hurt development. I sometimes get really weird error reports that are traced to system Pythons. People who report problems to me that result from using a system Python make me angry and make me want to not answer their questions or otherwise help them any more. System Python's have their place. The are appropriate for casual Python users and small one-off scripts, but not much else IMO. the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. I run dozens of development instances on my laptop, all with the same Macports python 2.4 installation. Creating a separate python build for each of these would be impractical, to say the least. You don't have to use a Python per project to avoid the system Python. Just create a separate from-source installation and use that single installation. *Never* install anything into that installation. Whether you are using eggs or not, any packages not included in a Python build from source should be managed in your project area. Of course, eggs make this easier. (IMO, it is also reasonable to include a Python build in a buildout, as long as it automated and as long as you don't mind the extra disk space usage and build time. I prefer to use a shared clean Python myself.) However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? Yes, as others have mentioned, you should use workingenv or buildout. (I wrote buildout because workingenv didn't provide enough control or automation for my needs.) I use virtual python for this, actually: the separate tree makes it possible to allow distutils / easy_install to pollute their own, private site-packages directory without my having to fight with sys.path. The cost there is a separate copy of the Python interpreter per runtime environment, plus a mess of symlinks. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUcfU+gerLs4ltQ4RAshBAKCdX1/0rZ4Fwj3aEfdlHVulDgZ5jQCgxbd0 VYBGtQsCnOvji6o5MJxEIRI= =UUJv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope 3 wiki cleanup
Yay! Am Mittwoch, den 16.05.2007, 20:32 -0700 schrieb Simon Michael: FYI - I installed a cleaned-up http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/FrontPage (the old one is at http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/FrontPage1). I think it's a step forward, hope you agree. I also cleaned up http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/Documentation a bit, but I'll be inclined to let this page wither unless enough there are enough active editors to justify maintaining it as well as the front page. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/ct%40gocept.com -- gocept gmbh co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Philipp von Weitershausen skrev: Martijn Pieters wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. There are more things to this. I typically have customers with lots of small one-off Plone sites running on different versions of zope/plone. 2-5 versions of python is not uncommon on these servers. For that reason I typically use a structure of: /home/zope/pythons /home/zope/zopes /home/zope/instances That way I can have many pythons and zope versions on the same server without problems, and looking in /home/zope gives me a good idea of what is installed. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
