Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
9p is not going to replace fuse now, if ever, on these systems. That's not to say that 9p goes away. But it's not worth worrying about whether FUSE will have more users -- it already has and it probably always will. if the winner is determined by usage (silly criteria, i think), the winner is not FUSE. the winner is email, by whatever protocol's handy. - erik
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Sure. But that would an argument in favor of the Plan 9/Inferno kernel architecture, not the protocol itself. Nobody's denying that 9P is a perfect match to that kind of kernel architecture. What I'm trying to find out is whether the protocol could stand its own ground even if Plan9 kernel is not serving nor muxing it. this depends entirely on your criteria and constraints. - erik
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 12:47 PM, erik quanstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure. But that would an argument in favor of the Plan 9/Inferno kernel architecture, not the protocol itself. Nobody's denying that 9P is a perfect match to that kind of kernel architecture. What I'm trying to find out is whether the protocol could stand its own ground even if Plan9 kernel is not serving nor muxing it. this depends entirely on your criteria and constraints. - erik
Re: [9fans] Cannot boot from:
Your CD-Rom is SATA? If it is, try to change it to legacy mode in BIOS and try Trask Bryant Trojanek escribió: I am using a Dell Latitude CPx laptop, trying to install Plan 9. I successfully get to the boot from: line, but anything I put into the entry gives back no feedback. I have tried sdC0!cdboot!9pcflop.gz , sdC1!cdboot!9pcflop.gz , sdD0!9pcflop.gz , and sdD1!9pcflop.gz with no luck. Some of the lspci from Linux is posted here: 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX Host bridge (rev 03) 00:01.0 PC bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX AGP bridge (rev 03) 00:03.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1225 (rev 01) 00:03.1 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1225 (rev 01) 00:07.0 Bridge: Intel Corporation 82371AB/EB/MB PIIX4 ISA (rev 02) 00:07.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82371AB/EB/MB PIIX4 IDE (rev 01) I can post the rest if needed (I have to type it by hand..) and any other general Linux commands output as well. I would very much like to get Plan 9 working on this laptop.
Re: [9fans] yes, comcast really *does* suck
Actually, there is a decent amount of noise over switching back to UUCP or the like to avoid the types of restrictions governments corporations are attempting to put on the 'net. Can't wait. :| On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you have to love comcast. They just blocked my port 25 incoming. A quick search around the net reveals they are jerking people around regularly on this issue. And people claim UUCP is obsolete. -- And in the Only Prolog programmers will find this funny department: Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: No. -- Ovid By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense. Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre. This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures -- Heraclitus
[9fans] Driver-writing workshop at iwp9?
Hi, Did the driver-writing workshop that was talked about months ago happen at IWP9? If so, is there video? Thanks, -- vs
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel.
Re: [9fans] Driver-writing workshop at iwp9?
Did the driver-writing workshop that was talked about months ago happen at IWP9? If so, is there video? it was discussed but there was no workshop and no videos. - erik
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. to paraphrase Edison, MS' genius is 1% development and 99% marketing.
Re: [9fans] mmap and shared libraries
Little troll, thy baiting f'r fray-- My thoughtless passage has flushed away Am not _I_ a troll like thee, Or art not _thou_ a Goddess like me? Practice your technique, little troll, while you have time to do mischief under the Goddess' nose! --On Friday, November 07, 2008 6:07 PM -0800 Lyndon Nerenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know one thing: every major operating system I have ever heard of leverages shared libraries. Can all those people be wrong? I don't think so. Eight billion Windows users can't be wrong. (Can they?)
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Well, they do have a branch called MicroSoft Research that they seem fond of putting money into. And apparently, a portion of that has gone into making an Inferno/Plan 9 -equivalent, thus far dubbed, MS Singularity. Development has been going on for quite some time, it seems. Think it'll outweigh what we have going with Plan 9? ---BeginMessage--- And don't forget MS' programming motto, 'Don't think; Type!' On Nov 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. to paraphrase Edison, MS' genius is 1% development and 99% marketing. ---End Message---
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, they do have a branch called MicroSoft Research that they seem fond of putting money into. And apparently, a portion of that has gone into making an Inferno/Plan 9 -equivalent, thus far dubbed, MS Singularity. Development has been going on for quite some time, it seems. Think it'll outweigh what we have going with Plan 9? This is unfair for two reasons. First, Microsoft Research does interesting research. Second, Singularity is a far cry from being the same as Inferno or Plan 9. It's an operating system, but that's the only real similarity. I suppose it uses a bytecode execution engine too, but that doesn't automatically make it like Inferno. They're very different and enabled very different research. Read the papers here and here http://research.microsoft.com/os/Singularity/ http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ and then tell me why they are equivalent. Russ
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
And don't forget MS' programming motto, 'Don't think; Type!' On Nov 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. to paraphrase Edison, MS' genius is 1% development and 99% marketing.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. Even as a potential substitute for ftp webdav is a farce. Speaking from personal experience, the amount of XML you need to generate for a directory listing is at least 20 times the size of the equivalent ftp listing, and then you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the webdav client to parse and render it. And don't get me started on vista... My wife's new dell laptop uses up 800 MB of ram doing who knows what after it boots and two times out of three fails to go to sleep w/ the fan whirling like a banshee. At times I wonder if I shouldn't have paid the $700 premium for the macbook. Sorry for the OT rant...
Re: [9fans] mmap and shared libraries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Little troll, thy baiting f'r fray-- My thoughtless passage has flushed away Am not _I_ a troll like thee, Or art not _thou_ a Goddess like me? Practice your technique, little troll, while you have time to do mischief under the Goddess' nose! --On Friday, November 07, 2008 6:07 PM -0800 Lyndon Nerenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know one thing: every major operating system I have ever heard of leverages shared libraries. Can all those people be wrong? I don't think so. Eight billion Windows users can't be wrong. (Can they?)
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Nov 8, 2008, at 4:11 AM, Francisco J Ballesteros wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. True. But it is not MS that worries me in this particular case. At least they don't have anything to offer yet. This: http://docs.amazonwebservices.com/AmazonS3/2006-03-01/ on the other hand, seems to be getting a lot of traction. As in people are using it right now kind of traction. I wish these guys provided 9P as one of the options to access their remote storage resources, but, of course, they don't. And why would they -- FUSE can handle whatever they have perfectly well. Thus, the letter of the remote resource access via FS semantics law seems to be perfectly fine, while the spirit, of course, is hopelessly broken. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] mmap and shared libraries
Noah is dangerously wise. Have you got rid of the smell of mackerel yet? Seriously Eris, you need a good hobby. And if I was your physician I would recommend medication. A SSRI or maybe a simple Benzo. Maybe twice a day, or when required. brucee On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 11:37 PM, Noah Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Little troll, thy baiting f'r fray-- My thoughtless passage has flushed away Am not _I_ a troll like thee, Or art not _thou_ a Goddess like me? Practice your technique, little troll, while you have time to do mischief under the Goddess' nose! --On Friday, November 07, 2008 6:07 PM -0800 Lyndon Nerenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know one thing: every major operating system I have ever heard of leverages shared libraries. Can all those people be wrong? I don't think so. Eight billion Windows users can't be wrong. (Can they?)
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Nov 8, 2008, at 11:15 AM, John Barham wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. Even as a potential substitute for ftp webdav is a farce. Speaking from personal experience, the amount of XML you need to generate for a directory listing is at least 20 times the size of the equivalent ftp listing, and then you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the webdav client to parse and render it. But think about this: why would you care if you have this: http://noedler.de/projekte/wdfs/ Why would anyone care about what's getting pushed to the wire? Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
I wrote a functional 9P S3 client but it just seemed silly in the end. Buy a few T of disk and fossil+venti and it's over. Even aging kenfs will do. brucee On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 8, 2008, at 4:11 AM, Francisco J Ballesteros wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. True. But it is not MS that worries me in this particular case. At least they don't have anything to offer yet. This: http://docs.amazonwebservices.com/AmazonS3/2006-03-01/ on the other hand, seems to be getting a lot of traction. As in people are using it right now kind of traction. I wish these guys provided 9P as one of the options to access their remote storage resources, but, of course, they don't. And why would they -- FUSE can handle whatever they have perfectly well. Thus, the letter of the remote resource access via FS semantics law seems to be perfectly fine, while the spirit, of course, is hopelessly broken. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Nov 8, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Bruce Ellis wrote: I wrote a functional 9P S3 client but it just seemed silly in the end. Buy a few T of disk and fossil+venti and it's over. Even aging kenfs will do. The most ironic thing of all is that one would expect a company which stood behind a technology like ZFS to easily appreciate that. Especially since we've always had a userland ZFS. And especially now, that we are trying to figure out a cloud storage market story. But no. Now, not to date myself as a green youngling, but how are PHBs to be convinced? They hear about 9P for the first time in their life (unlike bullshit lotto items: WebDAV, XML, SOAP and REST) and when they ask about *existing* client-side support there's not much I can tell them. Network effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect) at its worst? Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Hmmm, that's politics ... and here is mine - I forgot how much fun journalism is. I'm two hours late for filing, oh well. brucee On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Roman Shaposhnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 8, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Bruce Ellis wrote: I wrote a functional 9P S3 client but it just seemed silly in the end. Buy a few T of disk and fossil+venti and it's over. Even aging kenfs will do. The most ironic thing of all is that one would expect a company which stood behind a technology like ZFS to easily appreciate that. Especially since we've always had a userland ZFS. And especially now, that we are trying to figure out a cloud storage market story. But no. Now, not to date myself as a green youngling, but how are PHBs to be convinced? They hear about 9P for the first time in their life (unlike bullshit lotto items: WebDAV, XML, SOAP and REST) and when they ask about *existing* client-side support there's not much I can tell them. Network effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect) at its worst? Thanks, Roman. Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail - 2008 "We have a new spring in our walk, and our shoulders are straighter." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2008/11/05. The world is a buzz with the unmentionable. America has elected a Skinny Black Guy president. I was in Seattle during the caucuses in February and March, and it was all a buzz with change. Washington State is a Democratic stronghold, even more so on Vashon Island where I was staying. There was only one Republican on the island, but he had been hunted down like the scurrilous dog deserved, and had shifted to somewhere down south for tax reasons and because all of the dead goats on his lawn. There was dancing in the streets - naked hippies freely enriching the gene pool. But the question remained. Was Poo Face, as Clive Robertson would have called him, a match for the Clinton machine? And if so could he do the unmentionable. Put McCain back into cryogenic stasis? I had no doubt about where the loyalties were in the household where I was a guest. Pat would shout at the TV with much greater fervour than a close baseball game inspired. She would almost bring down the walls when Clinton was being smug, and well, being Hillary. The dog was restless and the cat was up a tree. I started to really dislike the Hillary smile which seemed bigger than the TV. Could she fool America into another term of self-exile? And what was her real agenda? I began to really enjoy the calmness and firm assertiveness of Obama, and even the relentless cheap shots from Clinton and McCain. They could both smirk all they liked - their aides had clearly not read the sign on the wall - Please make sure foot is fully engaged before putting in mouth. So Dire, So Straight, how could America resist? How much did I want to kick W. in the nuts just for the hell of it (though Im sure there was something on the Visa form that I had signed saying I wouldnt - would that be an attempt to overthrow the US Government?). As the weeks went by I took solace in taking Target, the fine hound, for long walks along the beach - chasing seals and ducks and finding challenging new sticks; and trying to forget about Iraq, the economy, and every other stupid mess that W. had plunged the country and world into, and to boldly split infinitives. When Obama wiped the smug makeup off the cuckolded ex-First Lady I went for a spin into town with Skip and Target. The hound entertained the crowd at Caf Luna and we had a soothing adult beverage and a snack at Butlers Bar and Grill. The place was eerily quiet, as if nothing was happening in the rest of the world. There was no TV. The food tasted good, and the beer was delicious. Could Obama really do the unmentionable? Despite the obstacles could he defeat McCain, a bigger dick than perhaps even Cheney? Only time would tell. That was then. And know life seems so tranquil, as I stare across the Aegean at Pelion, wondering if I can rent a quad-runner with only my AOPA card as a license, sipping quietly on a Mythos and watching Arsenal and Manchester United, as were most of the population of Skiathos. The only care in the world was for Tiger, my puppy, and how he is coping with his holiday with my brothers family. (Youre fluffy and wiggly at the same time, as my house guest Matt would say to him). Arsenal scored again and was kind of embarrassed to be taking up an entire table at Mezzo. But as I was the only one over the age of 10 on the island wearing shorts (and a flanno, a baseball cap - Pavco Flight Centre, and a goofy grin) - though the locals seem very tolerant of me. But thats not important right now, as HST would say. So what happened? How did someone erudite and qualified become the President of the United States for perhaps only the second time since I was born? The only thing that McCain really had going for him was that he was a Republican. The credibility
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Even as a potential substitute for ftp webdav is a farce. Speaking from personal experience, the amount of XML you need to generate for a directory listing is at least 20 times the size of the equivalent ftp listing, and then you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the webdav client to parse and render it. But think about this: why would you care if you have this: http://noedler.de/projekte/wdfs/ Why would anyone care about what's getting pushed to the wire? i think most everyone here inderstands why one would. let's let this thread die in peace. - erik
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Roman Shaposhnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The most ironic thing of all is that one would expect a company which stood behind a technology like ZFS to easily appreciate that. Especially since we've always had a userland ZFS. And especially now, that we are trying to figure out a cloud storage market story. But no. you had a userland nfs too :-) Now, not to date myself as a green youngling, but how are PHBs to be convinced? They hear about 9P for the first time in their life (unlike bullshit lotto items: WebDAV, XML, SOAP and REST) and when they ask about *existing* client-side support there's not much I can tell them. It's not just the PHBs. I showed the original 9p (for 2.0.36) in 1998 to a fair number of linux people, and back then I had private name spaces, union mounts, user level servers, in fact just about all you get in plan 9 today and STILL don't get in linux. They were strongly convinced there was no use for userland file systems, or union mounts, or private name spaces, or any of this stuff. They kept pointing to things that Linux did that were not at all what I was showing them, saying we already do that. At some point I gave up. Years later, FUSE comes along, and ... well you know the story. So it goes. We can't blame the PHBs for everything. Sometimes its our own guys. ron
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Sat, Nov 08, 2008 at 02:16:39PM -0800, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: On Nov 8, 2008, at 11:15 AM, John Barham wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. Even as a potential substitute for ftp webdav is a farce. Speaking from personal experience, the amount of XML you need to generate for a directory listing is at least 20 times the size of the equivalent ftp listing, and then you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the webdav client to parse and render it. it's not that bad! # readdir in xml... PROPREQ = array of byte ?xml version=\1.0\ encoding=\utf-8\?propfind xmlns=\DAV:\propgetcontentlength xmlns=\DAV:\/getlastmodified xmlns=\DAV:\/executable xmlns=\http://apache.org/dav/props/\/resourcetype xmlns=\DAV:\/checked-in xmlns=\DAV:\/checked-out xmlns=\DAV:\//prop/propfind; But think about this: why would you care if you have this: http://noedler.de/projekte/wdfs/ Why would anyone care about what's getting pushed to the wire? i guess it's just us who care, since we have to implement the protocols if we want to use them. for this case, i'm not sure what didn't stop me: http://www.ueber.net/code/r/webdavfs unpolished as always, but i've used it to edit files from my homedir at my isp. mechiel
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Nov 8, 2008, at 3:11 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: Even as a potential substitute for ftp webdav is a farce. Speaking from personal experience, the amount of XML you need to generate for a directory listing is at least 20 times the size of the equivalent ftp listing, and then you twiddle your thumbs waiting for the webdav client to parse and render it. But think about this: why would you care if you have this: http://noedler.de/projekte/wdfs/ Why would anyone care about what's getting pushed to the wire? i think most everyone here inderstands why one would. See that's the problem. I was asking for the arguments that might help me convince somebody who hasn't ever been exposed to Plan9/Inferno OSes (and hasn't ever been on this list) to consider 9P (as a protocol) to be added (as a fronted) to a major service that Sun wants to roll out. Personally, I ran out of ammo. You're now telling me that such a knowledge can only be had via the process of osmosis. That there are no arguments to be used. That's fair. This process of osmosis is what makes me read this list to begin with. But wouldn't you agree, that in all fairness, if the only people who want to see 9P being spoken by any piece of software or hardware are the ones subscribed to the list -- it is not worth implementing? let's let this thread die in peace. Sure. I'm about to write a reply to the question of requirements and I would be happy to take the answers off the list. Sorry to be a bother. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
It's not just the PHBs. I showed the original 9p (for 2.0.36) in 1998 to a fair number of linux people, and back then I had private name spaces, union mounts, user level servers, in fact just about all you get in plan 9 today and STILL don't get in linux. They were strongly convinced there was no use for userland file systems, or union mounts, or private name spaces, or any of this stuff. They kept pointing to things that Linux did that were not at all what I was showing them, saying we already do that. At some point I gave up. Years later, FUSE comes along, and ... well you know the story. It is always the same story. People like shiny baubles. Stuff they can relate to and/or show off to their friends. You just can't sell them on simplicity or flexibility. They don't care. If they did, they'd already be using plan9! If you want to sell them on 9P, build some shiny baubles they might want. Build a 9p client for iphone. Build a wireless 9p camera. Build something like openFrameworks.cc but simpler. People use it for all sorts of things including spray painting graffiti on skyscrapers -- see examples @ GraffitiResearchLab.com. Look at what Johny Lee has done with wiimote @ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/projects/wii/ People are making lots of new fun, creative uses of computers IO devices. A simple building block framework can be very useful here and it will be a while before FUSE gets here!
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Well they took Cyclone made Vault C, so they might as well go along with Inferno/Plan9 too. Interestingly enough, Singularity is written in Sing#, yet another MS-specific language. ugh. I think F# is the only thing to have recently escaped MSR (well, besides LINQ, although they killed Comega). On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 1:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, they do have a branch called MicroSoft Research that they seem fond of putting money into. And apparently, a portion of that has gone into making an Inferno/Plan 9 -equivalent, thus far dubbed, MS Singularity. Development has been going on for quite some time, it seems. Think it'll outweigh what we have going with Plan 9? -- Forwarded message -- From: Brantley Coile [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:27:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers? And don't forget MS' programming motto, 'Don't think; Type!' On Nov 8, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: It seems that MS is pushing webdav hard. that's what's needed when heavy things run out of fuel. to paraphrase Edison, MS' genius is 1% development and 99% marketing. -- And in the Only Prolog programmers will find this funny department: Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: No. -- Ovid By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense. Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre. This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures -- Heraclitus
Re: [9fans] photos of iwp9
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Kernel Panic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/photos/iwp9.2008/dscn0195.jpg I have this sudden impulse to start using abaco... -sqweek
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
purely virtual infrastructure for rolling out services is a good idea but the pieces aren't there yet. also, it assumes that the vm/vs service provider will be able to provide as good or better quality of service as you would maintaining your own infrastructure. one also needs to deal with data retention and confidentiality issues more directly. neither fossil nor ken's fs were designed with this in mind. - erik
