Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Hello after some time I crossed this matter again... /old/c/new/ doesn't scroll to the dot where the change happens in neither sam nor acme. My feeling is that it should. (Should there be any reason for different behaviour compared to the situation when the command is split as /old/ followed by c/new/; this way scrolling happens...?) Thanks Ruda 2008/10/24 Russ Cox r...@swtch.com: It is true that the /old/c/new/ doesn't scroll, which is unfortunate. I haven't looked into why or whether it is reasonable to change. Russ
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
The .+#0 is there because if you Undo one of the changes, the text that is selected right now will be old. Starting the search at .+#0 skips over that occurrence to go to the next one. Russ the text that is selected right now will be old ... that's true BUT it doesn't matter. The search always starts BEHIND the current dot. Thus I think .+#0 is unnecessary. Try it. Otherwise see 'A tutorial for the sam command language' by R. Pike, page 3, almost at the top. Ruda
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
2008/10/22 Rudolf Sykora [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/8/19 Russ Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item Put the cursor at the top of the file. In the tag, type and select Edit .+#0/old/c/new/ and middle click it. That will search for old, replace it with new, and scroll the file to highlight and show the replacement. If you don't like that change, you middle click Undo. Either way, middle clicking the Edit command will find and change the next occurrence. So you can just sit there middle clicking the Edit command until you find one that you didn't mean to change, Undo, and then go back to middle clicking Edit. Selecting the command in the tag keeps acme from moving the mouse to the changed selection, so that it is easier to repeat the command. Hello, I just needed this and it does not work for me. The command really goes through occurences of 'old' and highlights them, but it doesn't scroll, so I can't see them... which is somewhat crucial for beeing able to confirm/reject the change. I also don't quite understand why that .+#0 is there... Actually my first attempt would be just 'Edit /old/c/new/', which seems to be doing the wanted, but doesn't scroll either (both in sam and acme). The command 'Edit /old/' by itself scrolls, though... So? Thanks Ruda Well, since noone helped me I started to play with it to find at least some solution. I found that when I write /old/c/new/ [ENTER] . somewhere, highlight it (2 lines) and 2-1 click on Edit in the window with my file, then it works. Is there anything simpler? Ruda
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
2008/8/19 Russ Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item Put the cursor at the top of the file. In the tag, type and select Edit .+#0/old/c/new/ and middle click it. That will search for old, replace it with new, and scroll the file to highlight and show the replacement. If you don't like that change, you middle click Undo. Either way, middle clicking the Edit command will find and change the next occurrence. So you can just sit there middle clicking the Edit command until you find one that you didn't mean to change, Undo, and then go back to middle clicking Edit. Selecting the command in the tag keeps acme from moving the mouse to the changed selection, so that it is easier to repeat the command. Hello, I just needed this and it does not work for me. The command really goes through occurences of 'old' and highlights them, but it doesn't scroll, so I can't see them... which is somewhat crucial for beeing able to confirm/reject the change. I also don't quite understand why that .+#0 is there... Actually my first attempt would be just 'Edit /old/c/new/', which seems to be doing the wanted, but doesn't scroll either (both in sam and acme). The command 'Edit /old/' by itself scrolls, though... So? Thanks Ruda
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Small correction, it is actually ال سلام , or As-Salaam (the L in AL elides with shams letters). It would also be inappropriate for you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims only. Since you are using the name Eris, is the name of a deity, it is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also As-salaamu, there is a damma or u vowel atop then meem in salaam. marhaban is a more appropriate greeting in this case. On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Small correction, it is actually ال سلام , or As-Salaam (the L in AL elides with shams letters). It would also be inappropriate for you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims only. Since you are using the name Eris, is the name of a deity, it is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also As-salaamu, there is a damma or u vowel atop then meem in salaam. marhaban is a more appropriate greeting in this case. this leads to the conclusion that google is different from knowledge. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Man, this mailing list seems to love my contaminative presence. If you don't want me to post please don't challenge my previous postings. Otherwise, I'll have to respond. 1. As-Salam is a noun, Salam, with the definite article Al. It means peace. It is also one of the many descriptive names of Allah. 2. The two classes of letters you refer to are called Shamsii and Qamarii (with stressed i). Meaning solar and lunar, respectively. The solar consonants are the Arabic equivalents of sh, n, l, z (all four Arabic consonants that sound like /z/ to you, i.e. ذ, ض, ظ, and ز), r, d, s, (the three /s/ sounding consonants, i.e. ث, ص, and س), t (both /t/ sounding ones, i.e. ت and ط). The rest of consonants are lunar. 3. Salam-on alaikom, transliteration of سلام علیکم, is a greeting. It is not some sort of mantra directed at Allah. It means peace be upon you. And it isn't reserved for Muslims. In any sane Arabic-speaking country--and some non-Arabic-speaking countries--you'll be greeted by that same phrase. The phrase corresponds exactly to the famous Hebrew Shalom aleichem, which also means peace be upon you. 4. That -on suffix is a tanveen--there are three tanveens, each corresponding to one short vowel--on the ending of Salam. It serves the function of the copula to be. As in Ash-Shata Barid-on, transliteration of الشتا بارد, meaning the winter is cold. 5. Marhaba, transliteration of مرحبا--and not Marhaban--means something between well done and welcome. It is also part of the phrase اهلاً و سهلاً، مرحبا, Ahl-an wa Sahl-an, Marhaba, which is just an underlining of the same notion: welcome. See? Two tanveens on the endings of Ahl and Sahl but none on the ending of Marhaba. 6. You're right. I'm not a Muslim. --On Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:27 AM +0300 John Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small correction, it is actually ال سلام , or As-Salaam (the L in AL elides with shams letters). It would also be inappropriate for you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims only. Since you are using the name Eris, is the name of a deity, it is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also As-salaamu, there is a damma or u vowel atop then meem in salaam. marhaban is a more appropriate greeting in this case. On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
this leads to the conclusion that google is different from knowledge. No. It leads to a more meaningful conclusion. Namely, that a 9person will not learn another language, Arabic in this case, even by living in another country, in this case the KSA. And that there are better sources for copycatting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Salamu_Alaykum Virtually all Arabic speakers today, especially those in the Middle East omit the initial 'As' and pronounce the word as 'Salamu Alaykum.' Which is still incomparable to the first hand knowledge of Arabic grammar that tells you in Arabic the subject in a predicative sentence takes the tanveen/tanween corresponding to the short vowel damma, i.e. damma (= ُ) turns to dammatan (= ٌ). Oh, and I do remember you pontificating about how text editors shouldn't get involved in ligature, diacritics, vowel placement, and the like. Go tell that to عبدالله بن عبدالعزیز آل سعود. The Unicode Consortium tried hard to satisfy him--his money, in fact. --On Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:20 AM -0400 erik quanstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small correction, it is actually ال سلام , or As-Salaam (the L in AL elides with shams letters). It would also be inappropriate for you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims only. Since you are using the name Eris, is the name of a deity, it is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also As-salaamu, there is a damma or u vowel atop then meem in salaam. marhaban is a more appropriate greeting in this case. this leads to the conclusion that google is different from knowledge. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
One more bit on Arabic: In a predicative sentence the subject is necessarily Marfu' (= مرفوع) which means it either has a damma (= ضمه) or a dammatan (= ضمهٌ) on the ending letter. Whether the damma or the dammaton is used depends on whether the subject is Ma'rafa (= معرفه, known) or Nakara (= نکره, unknown). When Salam has the definite article Al it is considered Ma'rafa and therefore receives the damma but when it is used without that article it is Nakara and receives the dammaton. So, both forms Al-Salam-u and Salam-on are correct. However, the greeting in actual use is Salam-on alaikom. --On Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:27 AM +0300 John Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small correction, it is actually ال سلام , or As-Salaam (the L in AL elides with shams letters). It would also be inappropriate for you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims only. Since you are using the name Eris, is the name of a deity, it is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also As-salaamu, there is a damma or u vowel atop then meem in salaam. marhaban is a more appropriate greeting in this case. On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
I like to garden. Can we talk about flowers now in this thread? I am particularly fond of orchids and lilies. I don't really know that much about them but lilies are hearty in Northern Georgia and the orchids I tend to salvage from the grocery store after they begin to look dead. So the lilies need no care and it's ok if the orchids don't make it, they were on their way to the dumpster anyhow. Ian
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Not here in Najd, Saudi Arabia, where I live and work, it isn't. 2008/8/24 Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One more bit on Arabic: In a predicative sentence the subject is necessarily Marfu' (= مرفوع) which means it either has a damma (= ضمه) or a dammatan (= ضمهٌ) on the ending letter. Whether the damma or the dammaton is used depends on whether the subject is Ma'rafa (= معرفه, known) or Nakara (= نکره, unknown). When Salam has the definite article Al it is considered Ma'rafa and therefore receives the damma but when it is used without that article it is Nakara and receives the dammaton. So, both forms Al-Salam-u and Salam-on are correct. However, the greeting in actual use is Salam-on alaikom. --On Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:27 AM +0300 John Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small correction, it is actually ال سلام , or As-Salaam (the L in AL elides with shams letters). It would also be inappropriate for you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims only. Since you are using the name Eris, is the name of a deity, it is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also As-salaamu, there is a damma or u vowel atop then meem in salaam. marhaban is a more appropriate greeting in this case. On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Now if only we others would stop sending any more mails... On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Andrew Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, you won't get any more of this. End of transmission. ␄ Hurrah!
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Eris Discordia
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thank you, sqweek. The second golden Golden Apple with καλλιστι on it is
totally yours. The first one went to Russ Cox.
You don't care who mounts what where, because the rest of the system
doesn't notice the namespace change.
So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single
public namespace as long as there is one user on the system. mount
restriction in UNIX systems was put in place because multiple users exist
some of whom may be malicious. Virtualization and jailing will relax that
requirement.
Mount restrictions on unix are needed (among other reasons) because of
a broken security model (ie., suid).
Virtualization and jailing are hacks to work around the inherent
limitation that in unix resources can not be easily
abstracted/isolated and are plagued by the 'only root can do X'
restriction ('only root can become another user', hence su/sudo, only
root can open certain ports, etc.) which Plan 9 cleanly does away
with.
Linux could do many things plan9 can do, if it got rid of all suid
programs (by perhaps using the cap device implementation for the linux
kernel, if that is ever accepted in mainline linux), but until then...
Uh, what now? You either have an interesting definition of home
computer or some fucked up ideas about plan 9. You only need a cpu
server if you want to let other machines run processes on your
machine. You only need an auth server if you want to serve resources
to a remote machine.
Neither statement is true. On a home computer you certainly need a term.
You'll need a cpu for a number of tasks. And you'll need auth if there's
going to be more than one user on the system, or if you need a safe way of
authenticating yourself to your computer. A single glenda account doesn't
quite cut it. If you're going to access your storage you'll need some
fs('s), too.
The bottom line is: term is _certainly_ not enough for doing all the tasks a
*BSD does, and requiring a home computer to do all these tasks is far from
inconceivable. One *BSD system is almost functionally equivalent to a
combination of term, cpu, auth, and some fs('s).
A plan9 terminal can run programs, and can have a local storage file
system, with multiple users. As for authentication, in such use case
unix auth is little more than a farce of security theater which could
easily be implemented in plan9 (and I think some people has) if you
wanted to keep your three year old child from accessing your account
but is futile for much else.
incantation, that's beside the point. In 9p, the abstraction is a file
tree, and the interface is
auth/attach/open/read/write/clunk/walk/remove/stat.
ioctl and VFS are suspiciously similar even though they serve less generic
functions.
Try to do ioctl over the network.
network operations - everything is done via /net. Thanks to private
namespaces, you can transparently replace /net with some other crazy
[compatible] filesystem, which might load balance over multiple
How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block
device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an
advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided that
file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is viable
in the first place.
Here is a reason: Because Plan 9 has no network-related syscalls, and
applications contain no networking code (even when they are still
network transparent thanks to 9P), when ipv6 was added to plan9, no
changes were required to either any syscalls or any applications. On
the other hand on unix they are still to this day adding ipv6 support
to certain apps (and every app that needs to access remote resources
needs its own networking code that is aware of each protocol it wants
to support, etc).
When ipv6 needs to be replaced, the pain in the unix software
ecosystem will be even greater, while in plan9 it will be virtually
painless.
There are also the benefits of allowing different applications
(namespaces) use different network stacks without requiring full
virtualization of the whole OS (the few unix systems that have been
able to implement this functionality have done so after many years of
painful efforts and the result is incredibly clunky and complex), and
I don't think any unix systems allows a single application (or
namespace) to access *multiple* network stacks concurrently... and
remote network stacks? don't think so either.
implemented on any system, which is true [to an extent]. But it's
apparent than no others have the taste to do it as elegantly as plan 9 -
It's not a matter of taste. There are situations, many situations actually,
where the file system abstraction is plainly naive. Sticking with it for
every application verges on being an ideology.
The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's everything-is-a-file,
but on UNIX systems it is limited to
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single public namespace namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all processes. as long as there is one user on the system. since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out that terminals by definition have a single user at a time. This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation. Plan 9 has evaded that by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry I must say that's my personal opinion. Nothing I'm going to force unto you. Nothing I _can_ force unto you. equally one could say complication is a sign that one's vision was lacking; a sign that one's system lacks generality. if you call the opposite of complication immaturity, i'll be proud to have an operating system that suffers from it. How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided that file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is viable in the first place. i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least does not present network interfaces as block devices. there is no /dev/eth0. The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's everything-is-a-file, what do you mean by this? the VFS is a kernel interface along the general lines of plan 9's devtab. everything-is-a-file[server] is a general principle. but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully represented as file systems. so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces? - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
A plan9 terminal can run programs, and can have a local storage file system, with multiple users. i think this is misleading. while the fs running on the terminal can have multiple users, it is not true that you can have multiple users using the cpu resources of a terminal concurrently. you can have all that and auth if you run a single machine with a cpu kernel with the downside that if you use the console you must be eve. since it's easy to get small, cheep, low-power machines, i run a traditional terminal with a seperate auth and fs. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 3:58 AM, erik quanstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: A plan9 terminal can run programs, and can have a local storage file system, with multiple users. i think this is misleading. while the fs running on the terminal can have multiple users, it is not true that you can have multiple users using the cpu resources of a terminal concurrently. you can have all that and auth if you run a single machine with a cpu kernel with the downside that if you use the console you must be eve. since it's easy to get small, cheep, low-power machines, i run a traditional terminal with a seperate auth and fs. You can even run 9vx as a totally reasonable terminal now... On a system that needs not be dedicated to Plan 9, and still have your CPU/FS/AUTH elsewhere. (Thanks Russ!) I'm a big fan of this approach, if people find it difficult to justify a whole machine as a Plan 9 terminal. I think Inferno is somewhat usable for this purpose even too right? I've just never managed to get it going (or admittedly spent much time trying). Dave - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Virtualization and jailing are hacks to work around the inherent
Virtualization is much more than that. It has a future and the future's
here. It also has a rather glorious past in IBM VM/CMS.
restriction ('only root can become another user', hence su/sudo, only
root can open certain ports, etc.) which Plan 9 cleanly does away
with.
By assuming _anyone_ at a terminal is root, while sometimes the terminal
is not a terminal at all. What happens when your home computer is
bootstrapped? Is there a thing glenda can't do? I mean, if someone other
than you turns your home computer on is it OK for them to be entitled to
the same privileges that you normally are? Assuming there's method of
stopping them from disconnecting the hard disk inside and/or from peeking
into the data on it (there are practical solutions for both of these
problems).
A plan9 terminal can run programs, and can have a local storage file
system, with multiple users. As for authentication, in such use case
unix auth is little more than a farce of security theater which could
easily be implemented in plan9 (and I think some people has) if you
wanted to keep your three year old child from accessing your account
but is futile for much else.
A terminal per se should be dumb. How come it can run programs? It seems
a Plan 9 term isn't exactly a terminal, not a dumb one for sure. If it can
run a program, any program, who's going to control what the program
accesses, especially when there are _multiple_ users some of whom may not
be exactly trustable and there's a local store of sensitive information?
Basically, a terminal should not hold _any_ information on its users. Where
does the security of not keeping authentication information on a so-called
terminal go when you _keep_ it on the terminal? But with multiple users
you're going to need authentication. Right?
My impression: the UNIX authentication farce happened because UNIX began
as a replacement to a time-sharing system for more or less physically
secure computers but then was downsized to an OS--many OS's, in fact--also
usable on personal computers, e.g. 386BSD. Personal computers aren't as
physically secure as the proverbial big computer in the basement, hence
the need for role-based security which was, incidentally, introduced in
386BSD. However, as long as the physical security problem persists the
farce goes on. Nothing wrong with UNIX. The twist is in the placement and
role of personal computers which can be flaky vessels for sensitive
information.
Plan 9 doesn't solve that problem for the most common form of computer,
i.e. the _home_ computer. Not even for the so-called workstation. It
solves the problem only for the corporate/university/organization access
point, if you know what I mean. Even then that isn't a _new_ solution--it
was there when the original time-sharing systems were in operation. Of
course, the Plan 9 solution costs--any solution does--and for the home
computer these costs aren't followed by gains.
The real problem: standalone terminal, also known as the home computer
The real solution: physical security for anything that may carry sensitive
information. Physical security must include software security against
physical threats as well, e.g. encryption.
As a side note, Rob Pike has been quoted--I take no responsibility for
authenticity--saying, a smart terminal is not a smart ass terminal, but
rather a terminal you can educate.
That's the root of the problem: underestimation of home computers. A home
computer is a smart terminal as well as a smart ass terminal and there's
nothing you can do about it.
Try to do ioctl over the network.
I think I said ioctl serves a less generic function.
Here is a reason: Because Plan 9 has no network-related syscalls, and
applications contain no networking code (even when they are still
network transparent thanks to 9P), when ipv6 was added to plan9, no
[...]
UNIX can accommodate this approach any minute now, figuratively speaking.
It has the infrastructure. Current networking traditions in UNIX aren't
inherent, they're circumstantial. Remember, the file system abstraction
began in UNIX--or even before UNIX?
I don't think any unix systems allows a single application (or
namespace) to access *multiple* network stacks concurrently... and
remote network stacks? don't think so either.
So, what exactly is happening when the same process is sending HTTP
requests to a server on the local 802.3 network, a second server on the
Internet accessible through my dial-up connection, and a third server on a
802.11 network? Aren't there _three_ network stacks beneath (or over? the
PPP, the Ethernet, the WiFi interfaces? To my meager knowledge, these are
distinct at least up to network layer, i.e. physical-to-host, medium access
(if present), and data link layers are different.
namespace) to access *multiple* network stacks concurrently... and
remote network stacks? don't
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
A correction: Mea culpa. UNIX systems apparently force processes to share a single network stack, but that can be changed: http://www.tel.fer.hr/zec/papers/zec-03.pdf A paper on virtualizing network stacks in FreeBSD kernel, 2003 USENIX.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A correction: Mea culpa. UNIX systems apparently force processes to share a single network stack, gee how about that? Isn't it nice to acquire knowledge and *then* post? but that can be changed: http://www.tel.fer.hr/zec/papers/zec-03.pdf A paper on virtualizing network stacks in FreeBSD kernel, 2003 USENIX. Similar work is being done in Linux. I talked to the guy who is doing it a year ago. Want to know what inspired it? Which OS? Wanna guess? And, they are putting other namespaces into Linux. Wonder where they got that idea and name? I know. Do you? yeeesh. ron
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically, a terminal should not hold _any_ information on its users. Where does the security of not keeping authentication information on a so-called terminal go when you _keep_ it on the terminal? But with multiple users you're going to need authentication. Right? Eris, this is getting a little boring. Are you really this ignorant of what's going on? I don't mind ignorance per se but you keep wasting people's time as they try to explain CS 101 to you. Maybe you could start a blog and we could all ignore it -- it's much easier that way. My impression: the UNIX authentication farce happened because UNIX began as a replacement to a time-sharing system for more or less physically secure computers but then was downsized to an OS--many OS's, in fact--also usable on personal computers, e.g. 386BSD. Your impression? Well, that's one way to go at it.. Of course, there is the option of acquiring knowledge. It is more work however. If this is your picture of what happened then you need to go back and do some reading. You leave the impression, to me anyway, that you read a lot but I can not tell that you actually do much of anything. And, to top it off, you exist only as an imaginary wikipedia entry. List manager: can we *please* just boot this guy until he comes back as a real person? It's getting old. ron
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all processes. I was trying to compare UNIX to Plan 9. Apparently, UNIX processes share a single public namespace which therefore has to be protected by access privileges. since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out that terminals by definition have a single user at a time. What about the so-called standalone terminals (~ home computers)? My intention was to equate a single user UNIX to a Plan 9 standalone terminal. It's the same difference, I suppose. i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least does not present network interfaces as block devices. there is no /dev/eth0. The point is this can be done even if it hasn't been done. In case of FreeBSD, the network interfaces are represented under /dev/net. A sample installation shows this: crw--- 1 root wheel 0, 29 Aug 21 18:02 de0 crw--- 1 root wheel 0, 70 Aug 21 18:02 lo0 crw--- 1 root wheel 0, 35 Aug 21 18:02 plip0 Does it mean network interfaces are presented as _character_ devices? Doing cat foo de0 gives Operation not supported by device. what do you mean by this? the VFS is a kernel interface along the general lines of plan 9's devtab. everything-is-a-file[server] is a general principle. I mean VFS is an abstraction layer that presents a file system. What it represents as a file system is rather arbitrary. but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully represented as file systems. so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces? I don't understand this one. --On Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:36 AM -0400 erik quanstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single public namespace namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all processes. as long as there is one user on the system. since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out that terminals by definition have a single user at a time. This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation. Plan 9 has evaded that by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry I must say that's my personal opinion. Nothing I'm going to force unto you. Nothing I _can_ force unto you. equally one could say complication is a sign that one's vision was lacking; a sign that one's system lacks generality. if you call the opposite of complication immaturity, i'll be proud to have an operating system that suffers from it. How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided that file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is viable in the first place. i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least does not present network interfaces as block devices. there is no /dev/eth0. The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's everything-is-a-file, what do you mean by this? the VFS is a kernel interface along the general lines of plan 9's devtab. everything-is-a-file[server] is a general principle. but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully represented as file systems. so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces? - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Skipping general offenses... List manager: can we *please* just boot this guy until he comes back as a real person? It's getting old. Is it _that_ annoying to you? I could just keep silent if it is so, no booting required. Though I have to say I don't understand how a handful of emails to a mailing list someone happens to read can irritate them to such extent. In passing, instead of a threat you could have simply let the first response be. Were it really a piece of useless text, it would rot on its own. --On Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:11 AM -0700 ron minnich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically, a terminal should not hold _any_ information on its users. Where does the security of not keeping authentication information on a so-called terminal go when you _keep_ it on the terminal? But with multiple users you're going to need authentication. Right? Eris, this is getting a little boring. Are you really this ignorant of what's going on? I don't mind ignorance per se but you keep wasting people's time as they try to explain CS 101 to you. Maybe you could start a blog and we could all ignore it -- it's much easier that way. My impression: the UNIX authentication farce happened because UNIX began as a replacement to a time-sharing system for more or less physically secure computers but then was downsized to an OS--many OS's, in fact--also usable on personal computers, e.g. 386BSD. Your impression? Well, that's one way to go at it.. Of course, there is the option of acquiring knowledge. It is more work however. If this is your picture of what happened then you need to go back and do some reading. You leave the impression, to me anyway, that you read a lot but I can not tell that you actually do much of anything. And, to top it off, you exist only as an imaginary wikipedia entry. List manager: can we *please* just boot this guy until he comes back as a real person? It's getting old. ron
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it _that_ annoying to you? I could just keep silent if it is so, no booting required. goodness, it's not annoying. It's just a waste of breath, bandwidth, and bytes. Why not go do some reading and stop wasting all three? ron
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
goodness, it's not annoying. It's just a waste of breath, bandwidth, and bytes. Why not go do some reading and stop wasting all three? Breath I should rather save. Bandwidth I pay for. Bytes I push down the pipe. I admit it also costs 9fans.net a very very tiny amount. Anyway, you won't get any more of this. End of transmission. ␄ --On Thursday, August 21, 2008 1:39 PM -0700 ron minnich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it _that_ annoying to you? I could just keep silent if it is so, no booting required. goodness, it's not annoying. It's just a waste of breath, bandwidth, and bytes. Why not go do some reading and stop wasting all three? ron
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Eris Discordia schrieb: Been there, done that. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:00 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have an idea, Eris. Why don't you fuck off and actually USE Plan 9 for once? Unspeakable horrors from outer space paralyze the living and resurrect the dead Isn`t that the manifesto of Plan 9? BB
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an Option key, right? nope, Alt,T,M Well below 255, it's just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS. I don't get this, ™ is the unicode character 2122, not ASCII. I agree it could be generated on a MS-DOS pretty much any byte sequence could be, but I doubt even DOS 6.22 had unicode support, so you would have to translate it to a code page reprisentation and load the correct fonts. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Did your language training involve being taught the difference between a work/task and a job/profession? --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:08 PM -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: // Others, like me, have some petty work to do. Like knowing which // character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their // lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. Wait, your *job* is knowing where editor cursors are and how long lines are? Wow, that really sucks. No wonder you're so angry.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go read Program Design in the UNIX Environment by Kernighan and Pike to see what I mean. Get educated. Don't you even know where X came from? Just a funny idea: have you noticed that the Kernighan, Pike, Ritchie, Thomspon quartet always lacks two legs? Am I right on this one? There is KR, KP, and PT. Have yet to see PR, is there one? In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6) to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't need to keep the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi) How about going back to four buckey bits, hacker? For your information, Pi is within ISO 8859, 8859-7 to be precise. Now you do one thing: enter a daleth, put one rafe above it--i.e. דֿ--, and tell me the result. I do Windows. When I need to type in another language--and I often need that for three languages--I press [Alt]+[Shift] and I get the keyboard layout for that language. The right scan codes go to the right characters codes which in turn go to the right glyphs for every major alphabet/script on Earth, including right-to-left scripts. When I need a Unicode character out of the ordinary (like this one, ㊪) I press [Alt] and hold it, press [+] on numeric keypad once, then type in the hexadecimal code for that character. Any two-byte Unicode character. I learn the code out of Character Map from which I can get the character even more easily. http://www.fileformat.info/tip/microsoft/enter_unicode.htm Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when did curl come out?) Us? What is 1985? Your year of birth or Plan 9's or what? cURL's author didn't need to learn from you--whoever your you denotes--to do a simple job. Here's its history: http://curl.haxx.se/docs/history.html. It began in 1997. Gopher support was removed soon after because Gopher is a dead (or dying?)protocol. It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system calls. libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got connected to an IP address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for sockets. (The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly) When and where did Rob Pike do it? Didn't he incidentally leverage two (or more) additional abstraction layers over the network stack and the socket abstraction to achieve that? I can get connected to an IP address--overlooking your glaring ignorance about the fact that on IP (Internet Protocol) machines connect to _endpoints_ not IP addresses--in a one liner on Microsoft .NET framework. Nevertheless, that doesn't make .NET framework my platform of choice for programming. Boast it when you can _do_ it. Whatever I tell you I _can_ do, I _can_ do. Whatever I _can't_ do, I keep to myself. No comment. Thank you, again. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:08 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) I guess the UNIX philosophy--whatever that vague phrase is supposed to mean--contains the X philosophy. The core dictum goes: mechanism, not policy. That is, they give you the femur, you determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the MIT. The Plan 9 philosophy goes as far as telling you to not ask for a ruler in your text editor (ruler in vi := a pair of numbers; column, row). No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go read Program Design in the UNIX Environment by Kernighan and Pike to see what I mean. Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug. Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be a 9person, are taking pride in UTF-8. That's been the gesture for a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9 doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up. Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt] +0153--you call [Alt] an Option key, right? Well below 255, it's just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS. Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal. In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6) to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't need to
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
should be Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be stuck with Plan 9. Could be. Only _luck_ could make you that miserable; reason does a better job. Also, you could be a little funnier. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:11 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9. should be Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be stuck with Plan 9.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
as i suspected, you're here for therapy. _Intense_ therapy. i can see you're bitter. Not very much. The researching and submitting and hoyvin' mayvin' is going to be my bane, too. In a different field. Namely, differential geometry. More specifically, Finsler geometry. To be exact, finding of model spaces with constant positive flag curvature. Satisfied? and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics? Sorry... for them. When you can Get A Job Done (tm) with a finger stroke you shouldn't be moving an arm. That's squandering. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:26 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. as i suspected, you're here for therapy. You have nothing else but researching OS's and submitting papers. That justifies your 9life. i can see you're bitter. Others, like me, have some petty work to do. Like knowing which character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Enlighten me, then. Revealing a date of commencement won't comprise a breach of non-disclosure, would it? --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:34 PM -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
style(6) says not to convert tabs to spaces. I see. People on Plan 9 are told which characters they should or shouldn't use in their text. Great! An awk program can do this. The idea is to interpret tags as they come in the form of a stack: codestack htmlhtml headhead html title title head html /b title error: closing wrong tag You can also check to see if tags make sense or bad tags are nested. For example, don't see bodybody/body/body as normal, nor titleb/b/title. That stack has been implemented in vim. There're nearly 500 different syntax matching and highlighting schemes for vim, and there's a simple language for writing your own schemes. Why not use vi? --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:54 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a few other bits of relevance to the original topic: On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote: 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs style(6) says not to convert tabs to spaces. 11. Bookmarks If you know what text the bookmark will point to, make a comment on the line above it: /* C comment */ .\ troff comment # rc/awk comment Set the comment to the text of the bookmark. Then, search for the text of the bookmark with the appropriate comment delimiters. Easy enough. 16. HTML tag matching An awk program can do this. The idea is to interpret tags as they come in the form of a stack: codestack htmlhtml headhead html title title head html /b title error: closing wrong tag You can also check to see if tags make sense or bad tags are nested. For example, don't see bodybody/body/body as normal, nor titleb/b/title.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell? No. I looked it up in Microsoft Windows' Character Map. Saw it was below 255. Knew UTF-8 corresponds to ASCII in lower character codes (not sure 7-bit or 8-bit). Figured it could as well be 8-bit ASCII. ifconfig: only root can do that mount: only root can do that Funny, but then not funny. What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal? What if the terminal is your desktop PC? It isn't diskless and it certainly isn't meant to be a simple terminal in a network of a gazillion machines. Oh, I see, you run the equivalent of _four_ interconnected machines (cpu, terminal, some fs, and auth) to achieve that. How very clever. And how's that supposed to be any more secure than authenticating with Kerberos? Or, in case you're at home, a proper access policy? cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied Why permission denied? What keeps a wheel from giving a user permissions to /mnt/cell? You know, we live in a brave new world. ACLs were invented long ago. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 1:02 PM +0800 sqweek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]+0153 Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell? $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg $ ifconfig cellnetif num 555 555 ifconfig: only root can do that $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell mount: only root can do that $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/ cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied -sqweek
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell? No. I looked it up in Microsoft Windows' Character Map. Saw it was below 255. Knew UTF-8 corresponds to ASCII in lower character codes (not sure 7-bit or 8-bit). Figured it could as well be 8-bit ASCII. The ascii that is 8 bits is not the true ascii. ifconfig: only root can do that mount: only root can do that Funny, but then not funny. What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal? No. Private namespaces. cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied Why permission denied? Sorry, that should have been no such file or directory. You need a mkdir. -sqweek
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal? yes, no other things required, you fail (as per usual)
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
twenty years ago i was asked by a journalist to similarly explain why i was using UNIX. i ended up saying UNIX says screw you, i agree. it was one of the few random comments he didn't print. no 9fan needs to ask. they just get the job done because they know that what they are doing is much more sensible in 9-land than in some kids spinning brain. brucee On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 8:12 PM, matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal? yes, no other things required, you fail (as per usual)
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Read the rest of the paragraph you're responding to. Or stop feeding the troll as the big bosses advised you. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:12 AM +0100 matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal? yes, no other things required, you fail (as per usual)
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
The ascii that is 8 bits is not the true ascii. I answered that one. No. Private namespaces. And how does that solve the problem of whom to trust with mounting? Or with configuring a network interface? If someone has access to, say, eth0 then they have access to eth0. No amount of private namespaces keeps them from reading everything that goes through eth0, including other users' unencrypted traffic. Plan 9's model says if you have physical access to a terminal there is no way to secure _that_ terminal against your mischief. Therefore, it totally trusts you _that_ terminal. However, your home computer doesn't run only a terminal. To be usable, it has to run at least a cpu and an auth, in addition to a term. Now, where is the difference between running authentication on the same machine as the terminal and the traditional UNIX way of keeping authentication/authorization databases on each machine? Or from Kerberos' distributed authentication model? Sorry, that should have been no such file or directory. You need a mkdir. The directory could've been there beforehand. In any case, your deflection has nothing to do with the fact that Pietro Gagliardi's demand for a few commands to accomplish a certain task has been supplied with an adequate UNIX answer. He's under the false impression that abstraction actually _does_ things, and that because Plan 9 has an everything-is-a-file model it is any more trivial to access a cell phone over its proprietary communication protocol over the cellular network. An impression perpetuated by the 9people. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:53 PM +0800 sqweek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell? No. I looked it up in Microsoft Windows' Character Map. Saw it was below 255. Knew UTF-8 corresponds to ASCII in lower character codes (not sure 7-bit or 8-bit). Figured it could as well be 8-bit ASCII. The ascii that is 8 bits is not the true ascii. ifconfig: only root can do that mount: only root can do that Funny, but then not funny. What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal? No. Private namespaces. cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied Why permission denied? Sorry, that should have been no such file or directory. You need a mkdir. -sqweek
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Code page 1252, ANSI Latin I. Presumably the one most widely used. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:44 AM +0200 Sander van Dijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/20/08, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Figured it could as well be 8-bit ASCII. Which one?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On 8/20/08, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ACLs were invented long ago. yes, I like clean and simple solutions too. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
You only need a cpu server if you want to let other machines run processes on your machine. You only need an auth server if you want to serve resources to a remote machine. i don't think this is accurate. You only need a cpu server if you want to let /multiple users/ run processes on your machine. You only need an auth server if you want to /authenticate/. you don't need multiple machines to authenticate. (you can authenticate to a fs running on the local machine. you can authenticate via imap locally.) you don't need multiple users to need a cpu server. you need a cpu server to run services such as smtp or cron. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 2:58 AM, erik quanstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You only need a cpu server if you want to let other machines run processes on your machine. You only need an auth server if you want to serve resources to a remote machine. i don't think this is accurate. You only need a cpu server if you want to let /multiple users/ run processes on your machine. You only need an auth server if you want to /authenticate/. you don't need multiple machines to authenticate. (you can authenticate to a fs running on the local machine. you can authenticate via imap locally.) you don't need multiple users to need a cpu server. you need a cpu server to run services such as smtp or cron. Ah, right. Thanks for clarifying Erik, sorry about the swearing Eris. Makes a lot more sense now, though I still don't see the need to run auth for a standalone terminal. cpu serv for cron, maybe. -sqweek
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
I was going to give it a rest. Really. But I couldn't overcome my bad habits. They outnumber me ten to one ;-) You're right; it isn't. Is that good or bad? What about in an office environment? Same answer there? Plan 9's aptitude for becoming easily distributed--that is, becoming decentralized--gives rise to a centralized system when it comes to security, because safekeeping of one auth server is much easier than keeping track of numerous authentications/authorization databases spread across the network. It's good. For a _large_ organization, it's good. For the same reasons time-sharing systems were good for university campuses. Centralization lowers overhead--in costs, time, security, and general maintenance hassles. Problem is, sometimes the center and the periphery are the _same_, e.g. in home computing. And for the same reasons a time-sharing system would be bad for home computing, an innately distributed system is also bad for it. Needless to say, home computing doesn't mean casual or insignificant computing. The term only denotes the individual--to contrast with organizational--quality of the computation involved. Decentralization in small scale either overburdens the user with complexity or leaves them at the mercy of a _centralized_ application provider; in safekeeping of credentials, for example. That's Microsoft's dream world of software as a service. Strangely, Plan 9--if it ever gets to enjoy a large user base--demonstrates the horrors of that dream. Way, way out of scope. Kinda like a fusion-powered terminal. Not like that. Biometrics is becoming dirt cheap these days. ...or incipient schizophrenia. Huh? Would that I could force you into not using double-quotes for emphasis! I used to use them for emphasis. Then I tried _underscores_ and reserved double quotes for sarcasm and invented/unfamiliar terms. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:15 PM -0700 Geoffrey Avila [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not (currently) a Plan 9 user, but I gotta chime in: It seems the security ascribed to disposable machines comes from that user data is stored on a different, presumably safer, machine in, for example, some sort of data warehouse at a data center. This isn't a new idea--actually, it's _very_ old--and it's not what happens in home (or personal) computing. You're right; it isn't. Is that good or bad? What about in an office environment? Same answer there? Plan 9 respects that. Not trusting the hostowner is a waste of effort. Not with reliable biometric authentication, but that's out of scope here. Way, way out of scope. Kinda like a fusion-powered terminal. Now, your home computer may be a true single user machine but you store _some_ authentication information on it anyway; those of yours, namely. Such machine is in that respect as vulnerable as a UNIX machine. It has to be _physically_ guarded. It's no more a disposable machine. This is the argument I had for using Sunrays in public places at work. Single user, and if they were ganked from the lobby one night, the theives would only have a middling LCD monitor instead of a windows system with cached credentials. This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation. ...or incipient schizophrenia. by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry I must say that's my personal opinion. Nothing I'm going to force unto you. Nothing I _can_ force unto you. Would that I could force you into not using double-quotes for emphasis! -GBA
[9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is the Acme way of approaching it? I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others trying to learn Acme. 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display 03. Display line numbers 04. Display ruler 05. Rectangluar block selection 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs 08. Syntax highlighting of code 09. Code folding 10. Code clips/completion 11. Bookmarks 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line 14. Customize the color scheme 15. Change fonts 16. HTML tag matching 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor 18. Display right-to-left text Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser: 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Wendell xe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code. You have to learn it. If you want emacs and vi, you won't get them with acme -- besides, you already had them, remember? Acme is a very nice tool. But you have to climb the learning curve, and there's no escaping it. I don't know how else to put it. Most times, I use acme, but still use emacs and vi as well. They are different. FWIW, there's lots of people who think emacs and vi are a joke for code use, and use the more sophisticated IDEs out there. To each his own. ron
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Going by your list, I would conclude your code is something in the vein of Java plus web stuff, maybe even J2EE, or maybe the scourge of the editing world, Python. If that's the case and you have to deal with other people's code, Acme is probably not going to help you very much. In fact Acme will make the shortcomings of any code you are looking at a lot more obvious. For me, that's a crucial thing. Keeps my code in check purely through the text of it. Acme's strengths lie in navigating, writing and changing code that is of a certain standard. Just my thoughts, Robby
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote:
01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
03. Display line numbers
04. Display ruler
05. Rectangluar block selection
06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
08. Syntax highlighting of code
09. Code folding
10. Code clips/completion
11. Bookmarks
12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
14. Customize the color scheme
Acme is not an IDE. It is a text editor. If you want these facilities,
implement them yourself. That's what the source is provided for.
Some of your ideas can be implemented as external programs.
3. awk '{ print NR, $0 }' file
7. sed 's/ //g' file file2 mv file2 file
12. This is harder. I suggest a program that works like so:
% pdiff a.c b.c
#include u.h
#include libc.h
int a; char a;
void
main(void) q(void)
{
...
What I suggest is to see how idiff(1) works. idiff merges two files
by allowing you to select which difference to use. The source is /sys/
src/cmd/idiff.c.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
For me, that's a crucial thing. Keeps my code in check purely through the text of it. If I understand what you are saying I find this is really interesting. I many of the prople I work with use syntax highlighting editors and I often find their code difficult to read (I use sam). In the way that the labs used to keep (I believe) an old alpha system to keep the code honest (64bit and endian clean), I print out my code from time to time to make sure its readable, to keep it honest. perhaps its my age. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
11. Bookmarks
Typically handled by 'guide' files. I.e. a file, open in an acme window,
full of B3-able search strings. E.g.:
foo.c:/^main
Also useful with B2-able command strings:
grep -n 'where_is_this_function_called_from\(' *.c
slay program | rc
--lyndon
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). Sorry, I have to bite. Its because I want to Get my job done™ that I use plan9. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
It's a research platform for those who want to tell other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be sacrilege. thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have given me that idea. No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's nimble, don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of development. also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed to be using. [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey, ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'', .I UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. , London, England, 1990. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
You might give Sam a try. I'm still working my way up to Acme too, but Sam has an edge over vi for me... ...Might be nice if there was an option to open a document in a default window though, but if it were a big enough concern, I've got the source and could make the change... :) -Ben winmail.dat
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay? Just lurking, I overheard the hackers say. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:12 PM -0600 andrey mirtchovski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. You have nothing else but researching OS's and submitting papers. That justifies your 9life. Others, like me, have some petty work to do. Like knowing which character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. --On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:14 AM +0200 Francisco J Ballesteros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I admit we all use plan 9 just to justify ourselves to read and write threads like the one this post might trigger on 9fans. For everything else, we use DOS, which is windows simplified, along with edlin.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Wrong on so many levels. Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's _right_ on so many levels. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, Plan 9 is not UNIX? Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? Everything is a UTF-8 [...] Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through. Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You wrote it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:25 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a research platform for those who want to tell other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be sacrilege. No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's nimble, don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of development. Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that provide common utilities in a transparent way. Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like that, leave.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, Plan 9 is not UNIX? Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) Everything is a UTF-8 [...] Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through. Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/ keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug. Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You wrote it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P. I'm saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc: gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp# Demonstration; don't try this motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you? As for filesystem usage, echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your eyes. On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply fanity-- a la vanity-- and fanity is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3. - Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few other projects. - Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it? - Goofing off: lots of free games The point of this all? Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating system. It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just increasing (or decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to care, fuck off. You've done that to us already, on many occasions.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have given me that idea. Somebody would make a bad choice anyway. Microsoft shipped thousands of copies of Microsoft Bob before they learnt about their mistake. Let's see if your company, founded 2000, survives its Coraid Bob. And I hear your primary source of sustenance is an AoE driver for _Linux_. You're leeching another OS's user base and boasting doing Plan 9? Where would you be without Linux Support for EtherDrive (R) Storage? (http://support.coraid.com/support/linux/) also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed to be using. [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey, ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'', .I UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. , London, England, 1990. Yes. According to Wikipedia: It was developed as the research successor to Unix by the Computing Sciences Research Center at Bell Labs between the mid-1980s and 2002. Mid-1980s ~ 1985 Current date (here) = August 20, 2008 2008 - 1985 + 1 = 24. Update your table. Apparently, Plan 9 was being developed some years before the paper. You know, you gotta do something with the free time on your hand. Create an OS, for example. And pull a paper out of it after some years. By the way, what exactly happened to Plan 9 on 2002? Was it dismantled? Or did they shut the furnace down? --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:34 PM -0400 erik quanstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a research platform for those who want to tell other people what they should do and how they should do it and why any other way would be sacrilege. thanks for setting me straight. for some reason, i thought my company had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9. i don't know what would have given me that idea. No wonder it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's nimble, don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of development. also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed to be using. [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey, ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'', .I UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. , London, England, 1990. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong on so many levels. Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's _right_ on so many levels. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, Plan 9 is not UNIX? Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? Everything is a UTF-8 [...] Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through. Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You wrote it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too angry. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too angry. Sir, yessir! The Marines don't do Japanese, sir! --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:31 PM -0300 Iruata Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong on so many levels. Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's _right_ on so many levels. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, Plan 9 is not UNIX? Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? Everything is a UTF-8 [...] Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or سلام علیکم (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if the mail goes through. Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million commands or typing a thousand lines of code. The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You wrote it already? Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier OS? Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. If you are not like that, leave. No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's originator. take it easy on the porn and get some real sex, eris. you're way too angry. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
eris, I agree, thanks. iru
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
// Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-) Oh, I'm waiting for a phone call before bed. What the hell. My job has nothing to do with your 1-3. I agree with Steve exactly: I use Plan 9 because it allows me to get my job done easier. My job includes some programming, some document writing, lots of reading. I've never been employed to count columns or fold lines. I use Acme (even when not on Plan 9) because, at least for me, the interface encourages good mental habits that help me produce quality stuff. I find the applications and interfaces in Plan 9 to be far more consistent and convenient than in other systems. That's true both for programming interfaces and user interfaces. This means I can let the system do its job and get out of my way without having to think about it as much as I do elsewhere. You're also engaging in all sorts of poor logic in the No True Scotsman family in order to try and exclude folks like Coraid who're really excellent counter-examples to your claims: they use Plan 9 not for (the benefit of) Plan 9, but because it allows them to build products (for other people who likely have no idea Plan 9 is involved) easier. If Acme (or Plan 9 generally) don't fit your style well, that's fine. If the interfaces don't have the same beneficial effects for you as they do for me, that's fine (academically, I might speculate on why). Feel free not to use it. But to imply that people who are actually using the system productively are either delusional or just don't exist is highly insulting. Anthony
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay? therapy?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Ms. Discordia, if you don't like it here why do you stay? therapy? here is the scary.devil.monastery of old systems programmers, after all. :)
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. as i suspected, you're here for therapy. You have nothing else but researching OS's and submitting papers. That justifies your 9life. i can see you're bitter. Others, like me, have some petty work to do. Like knowing which character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
When in doubt say something's shitty and try somother OS. You'll be back. Others have tried and failed with your strategy. brucee On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Skip Tavakkolian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, you justify your salary, dear Sir. I honestly respect you for having written the nemo book--you're nemo after all. That, however, won't change my stance on Plan 9 and the 9people. as i suspected, you're here for therapy. You have nothing else but researching OS's and submitting papers. That justifies your 9life. i can see you're bitter. Others, like me, have some petty work to do. Like knowing which character on which line they're editing or controlling how long their lines of text get, _without_ resorting to acrobatics. and how does it make you feel when you know others are performing acrobatics?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Geoff! Why not let Eris read your paper on Why Plan 9 Matters?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Pietro why don't you shut up? You annoy my dog. brucee On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Geoff! Why not let Eris read your paper on Why Plan 9 Matters?
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Just a few other bits of relevance to the original topic: On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Wendell xe wrote: 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs style(6) says not to convert tabs to spaces. 11. Bookmarks If you know what text the bookmark will point to, make a comment on the line above it: /* C comment */ .\ troff comment # rc/awk comment Set the comment to the text of the bookmark. Then, search for the text of the bookmark with the appropriate comment delimiters. Easy enough. 16. HTML tag matching An awk program can do this. The idea is to interpret tags as they come in the form of a stack: codestack htmlhtml headhead html title title head html /b title error: closing wrong tag You can also check to see if tags make sense or bad tags are nested. For example, don't see bodybody/body/body as normal, nor titleb/b/title.
Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]+0153 Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell? $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg $ ifconfig cellnetif num 555 555 ifconfig: only root can do that $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell mount: only root can do that $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/ cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied -sqweek
