Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On 06/10/2012 12:01 PM, andrey mirtchovski wrote: I like the or MIME part. ;) i forgot to include a reference: http://mail.9fans.net/listinfo/9fans On above said page, it would be nice to have the following as active/click-able links: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/FAQ/index.html#browser http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Mouse_vs._keyboard/ http://9fans.net/archive -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 13:03:16 -0600 andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: Don't submit messages containing flames or MIME. Content should be technical. I'm looking at all of you here! I like the or MIME part. ;) -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
I like the or MIME part. ;) i forgot to include a reference: http://mail.9fans.net/listinfo/9fans
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Seems like after all there is a dependency hell for windows, too. It's a slower, but more thorough kind of cancer. Trying to download an older version of opera (opera 9 works) with internet explorer 5 is impossible because of web standards. The windows update web site creates a redirection loop. IE does no not even try to render some sites, instead there's a neat error popup. The shitty graphic card can't do 1600x1200. Lots of Installers of modern software use functions which are not available in win98's dlls (even though the program itself would possibly run fine). I successfully installed Half-Life, but it has been patched too far so support the feature I'm seeking out. This is what only runs on windows 98 and why I'm going through all the mess: http://toni.org/a3d/ flame.exe is an executable file. For security reasons, Google Mail does not allow you to send this type of file. - oh may
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Friday, June 8, 2012, erik quanstrom wrote: In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data in a way that it's not a problem anymore. i don't know what you're saying here. And that is probably for the best - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
on content-sniffing. I assume Abaco either does the same or allows the HTML to override the HTTP. Based on previous experience I expect Safari also gets it right. abaco gets it right on accident. webfs isn't capable of dealing with the http charset so it's simply ignored. this causes a number of pages to be misinterpreted. regardless of what one thinks of the standard, the header charset takes precidence! see http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/dec2002/ it sucks, but it's better to follow standards than to invent one's own. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:05:06 -0700 David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote: i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea. but maybe others have? I can tell you that the Big Data Analytics explosion that's been going on that is creating lots of jobs for data scientists, has an awful lot to do with the fact that files on a filesystem are unstructured or untyped (without a schema). Most of this is passing me by, but I would really like a search engine for my own hard drive, if that's part of what you're talking about. I guess with a search engine types matter, but there are very few file types you'd want to read, view, or watch which can't be determined by looking at the first part of the file. Within the file each type has its own structure. I don't really understand what's being said by unstructured here unless they want programs to handle all types without recognising each one individually. Even then I don't see the problem because many file types are just containers anyway, but I should probably stop there as I really don't know what comes of analytics and I don't have big data for any purposes other than to be searched. On systems like iOS, applications don't expose a file system to the end user but instead apps that work with PDFs can be used to forward those documents to other applications that understand PDFs. This corresponds more to data types. The type-less mode is more general, and the typed mode seems easier to reason about. It sounds like a weaker version of old PalmOS which had databases not files and each db had a type associating it with an app. I think I prefer the weaker version although I will probably dissect some of my numerous Palm dbs if I find the time. I'd like to see how they're structured. In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data in a way that it's not a problem anymore. I will be very, VERY interested if they manage to find something that actually works, considering the last attempt was XML. ;) Even if you don't count XML as an attempt at a universal structure, it's certainly used for that, a lot.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 02:00:37 -0400 erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: regardless of what one thinks of the standard, the header charset takes precidence! see http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/dec2002/ it sucks, but it's better to follow standards than to invent one's own. Regardless of how unjust a law is, it must be obeyed, for it is the Law! Right? Hah! I'm one of those people who believe citizens have a duty to oppose unjust laws. How much more so then should we oppose standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no purpose?
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
How much more so then should we oppose standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no purpose? You're getting lost. The MIME standard (RFC 1341, June 1992) is what you started criticising and you're overlooking (a) that a phenomenal amount of effort went into establishing that standard; (b) that it has been of great service for many years; (c) that mailers like Outlook that continue to take liberties with the MIME headers have facilitated in no minor manner the ditribution of Trojan Horses and (d) no one has yet found it necessary or advisable to replace the MIME standard with a better one. I grant that back in 1992 one could not have foreseen all the possibilities that MIME ought to have addressed, but all things considered, I think the result was little short of miraculous. That you can criticise one aspect that in fact is not even at fault seems a bit facitious, at least to me. By all means propose an anlternative, but don't expect to find too many followers when you do. ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Regardless of how unjust a law is, it must be obeyed, for it is the Law! Right? Hah! I'm one of those people who believe citizens have a duty to oppose unjust laws. How much more so then should we oppose standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no purpose? standards aren't laws. there's no moral component at all. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
standards aren't laws. there's no moral component at all. Politics (insufficient resources) can put moral components into anything. But most technical standard organisations do aim to avoid making the type of short sighted judgements that lead to resource depletion. Then the market comes along to create artificial shortages so as to increase value, giving politics the opening they seem to be waiting for. ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 04:29:15PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: (a) that a phenomenal amount of effort went into establishing that standard; Then it belongs on someone's refrigerator, next to a participation award. Bad decisions aren't less bad just because a lot of people worked hard to make them. (b) that it has been of great service for many years; Are you claiming it is good through tenure, which is obviously a fallacy, or are you actually calling this catastrophe of a standard great? (c) that mailers like Outlook that continue to take liberties with the MIME headers have facilitated in no minor manner the ditribution of Trojan Horses This is the technological equivalent of ranting about the September 11th attacks. Are you telling us that ignoring a charset header is going to cause webfs to install malicious software on plan 9? and (d) no one has yet found it necessary or advisable to replace the MIME standard with a better one. Incorrect. I have often found it necessary to remove or ignore the MIME standard, and everyone who has spent any time working with MIME content has found it advisable to replace it with anything -- such as alcohol, suicide, or weeping into pillows. I grant that back in 1992 one could not have foreseen all the possibilities that MIME ought to have addressed, but all things considered, I think the result was little short of miraculous. The only thing that is miraculous is that it works at all. MIME is still on 1.0 because they did such a piss-poor job of specifying their outlandish nightmare they've now realized it's impossible even to improve it at all. Nathaniel Borenstein has admitted in public that it is embarassing to him. MIME is a shitty workaround (badly) designed to cram non-text data into a text-based protocol. Instead of using proper transfer protocols to transfer files, some morons decided to shove binary data into text-based messaging. When the web crowd decided they, too, would like to shove unlikely things into a text based protocol, MIME was the natural answer. It's probably going to be just as impossible to kill MIME as it is to kill all kinds of other entrenched awful things in the IT industry, but don't let MIME's wide distribution fool you. It's a bad standard, written badly, used by bad people to do dumb things. It's best to involve yourself as little as possible with it, and if your life is even marginally improved by ignoring something MIME has to say, have at it.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Are you claiming it is good through tenure, which is obviously a fallacy, or are you actually calling this catastrophe of a standard great? You're not offering a comparison, so, yes, I'm calling it good. So, apparently, do innumerable users, again, maybe for want of a better product. Twenty years old and no one has successfully dislodged it, what would you call it? ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:29:15 +0200 Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: How much more so then should we oppose standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no purpose? You're getting lost. The MIME standard (RFC 1341, June 1992) is what you started criticising Wrong. I don't care how content type is determined, I care WHERE it is DICTATED. Pretending the server has magic knowledge in this department is beyond idiotic.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
MIME is a shitty workaround (badly) designed to cram non-text data into a text-based protocol. Instead of using proper transfer protocols to transfer files, some morons decided to shove binary data into text-based messaging. When the web crowd decided they, too, would like to shove unlikely things into a text based protocol, MIME was the natural answer. And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives just simply haven't gained any ground at all? ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:51:37 +0200 Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: standards aren't laws. there's no moral component at all. Politics (insufficient resources) can put moral components into anything. But most technical standard organisations do aim to avoid making the type of short sighted judgements that lead to resource depletion. Then the market comes along to create artificial shortages so as to increase value, giving politics the opening they seem to be waiting for. Looks like technical standards organisations viewed sysadmins (or web site admins) as underworked and overpaid, on this particular issue. I think it was some overpaid dick with a persuasive mouth pushing his favourite idea of OS-enforced file types.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Kurt H Maier: Are you claiming it is good through tenure, which is obviously a fallacy, or are you actually calling this catastrophe of a standard great? Lucio De Re: You're not offering a comparison, so, yes, I'm calling it good. So, apparently, do innumerable users, again, maybe for want of a better product. Twenty years old and no one has success- fully dislodged it, what would you call it? Windows. Tenure and dislodging and number of users don't make anything more suited to purpose or well-designed. Great is subjective anyway, and better alternatives are usually available. We've drifted quite a bit from the subject line. Jason Catena
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 05:53:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives just simply haven't gained any ground at all? Since you seem to be the sort of idiot who can't differentiate technical quality from distribution volume, I'll leave you to wallow in your bad reasoning and unwarranted self-assurance.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat Jun 9 12:32:20 EDT 2012, kh...@intma.in wrote: On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 05:53:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives just simply haven't gained any ground at all? Since you seem to be the sort of idiot who can't differentiate technical quality from distribution volume, I'll leave you to wallow in your bad reasoning and unwarranted self-assurance. there's no place for name calling or disrespect. please stop. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 12:52:17 -0400 erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Sat Jun 9 12:32:20 EDT 2012, kh...@intma.in wrote: On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 05:53:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives just simply haven't gained any ground at all? Since you seem to be the sort of idiot who can't differentiate technical quality from distribution volume, I'll leave you to wallow in your bad reasoning and unwarranted self-assurance. there's no place for name calling or disrespect. please stop. - erik And I used to wonder why some people didn't like this mailing list. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
I respect all you guy's senseless babbling as I'm being a lot more disrespectful than anyone here (currently installing windows 98). Go on.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Jun 9, 2012 2:11 PM, hiro 23h...@googlemail.com wrote: I respect all you guy's senseless babbling as I'm being a lot more disrespectful than anyone here (currently installing windows 98). Go on. I would shit on you for this, but I'm an OpenVMS user. -- Veety
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 08:42:11 -0400
erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:
I'll admit I don't have anything quite as convenient as that for an
immediate undo. I'd put a cp in the shell loop and for undo: for(f in
*.orig) {mv $f `{echo $f | sed 's/.orig$//'}}. Or use a scm, e.g. git
reset --hard HEAD.
this is significantly more complicated for the user, and it doesn't
provide the same functinality. u in sam or acme can undo an
arbitrary number of times. you'd need an even more complicated
solution to undo two X commands, and in order to interact nicely
with external undo, *ever* edit would need to be saved externally.
no thanks. what we've got is better.
I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea
of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I
guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor
or the editor is part of the window system.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor or the editor is part of the window system. right! i'd also add that a program is much easier to reuse than a function within a program. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:58 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor or the editor is part of the window system. right! i'd also add that a program is much easier to reuse than a function within a program. - erik Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O. (i think they may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own) As an example: I'm a rather big fan of systems like beanstalkd over say an AMQP implementation because beanstalkd's core is in a line base text protocol, and you can write a client for it in a shell if you really wanted to (it's trivial, I've done it in ZSH). I can't say the same for AMQP implementations or JMS etc.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O. (i think they may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own) I think type systems have their use but do not help much at the borders (I/O) of the program. Reminds me of this paragraph in our paper (sorry for the autoquote) http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/12/6/7109 The most usual mistake is to argue that synthetic files do not provide types and/or type checking, for example, when used to execute commands or to exchange data represented as text. It may not seem so, but type-checking does not help much regarding correctness of the requests made and/or data retrieved. Note that clients and servers may be written in different programming languages. Some will be strongly typed, some not. Those that are typed may have different, incompatible, type systems. Synthetic file servers must check data written for validity, like an OS kernel or a network server would. If the request made is invalid, an error is raised. It does not really matter in practice if the error is due to type checking or due to an invalid request. If the response given by a server is not correct, the client of the server is responsible for checking it for validity and acting accordingly. What we have seen in practice, if that when the user makes a mistake, the device raises an error, and the user tries again; this has never turned out to be a problem.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Friday, June 8, 2012, Gorka Guardiola wrote: Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O. (i think they may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own) I think type systems have their use but do not help much at the borders (I/O) of the program. If only more people understood this they'd realize that it's important to understand how things get marshalled between programs. Types are internal only, but may help drive marshaling. Java Beans make me gassy. Reminds me of this paragraph in our paper (sorry for the autoquote) http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/12/6/7109 The most usual mistake is to argue that synthetic files do not provide types and/or type checking, for example, when used to execute commands or to exchange data represented as text. It may not seem so, but type-checking does not help much regarding correctness of the requests made and/or data retrieved. Note that clients and servers may be written in different programming languages. Some will be strongly typed, some not. Those that are typed may have different, incompatible, type systems. Synthetic file servers must check data written for validity, like an OS kernel or a network server would. If the request made is invalid, an error is raised. It does not really matter in practice if the error is due to type checking or due to an invalid request. If the response given by a server is not correct, the client of the server is responsible for checking it for validity and acting accordingly. What we have seen in practice, if that when the user makes a mistake, the device raises an error, and the user tries again; this has never turned out to be a problem.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O. (i think they may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own) the unix model is that files are typeless. or at most the linker refuses to read files it can't read. before unix, oses typically had file types enforced by the operating system. while the bell labs incination to be typeless has worked very well for files, it has turned out that you really want types for programming languages. i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea. but maybe others have? - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:44:35 -0400 erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote: i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea. but maybe others have? I certainly haven't, and I wish the HTTP standards idiots would adopt the unix position in this case; the content-type header needs to be parodied, vilified, and expunged with prejudice. Here is a mild example of what happens when it goes wrong: http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/UUOC.html The problem there is the document is iso-8859-1 (and has been for many years), but the content-type header contains charset=utf-8. Mothra and Abaco get it right. Mothra ignores content-type and relies entirely on content-sniffing. I assume Abaco either does the same or allows the HTML to override the HTTP. Based on previous experience I expect Safari also gets it right. Firefox, Chrome, Opera, and Surf (webkit) all get it wrong, taking the content-type header as Word of God. What business does a HTTP server have in knowing the types of the files stored on it? How superstitious do you need to be to believe that a web server has accurate knowledge of the type of every file it serves? How impractical must you be to think any file type which is difficult to determine from its content (much less its file name) will ever be presented as something to be displayed by a web browser??? And yet Firefox, as I recall, actually won't do anything useful in the absence of a content-type header. (It's been a while, but I think it assumes everything is HTML, even if it's actually a gif.) To cut a long rant short, I'm staggered. I'm almost terrified to think that highly educated 21st-century human beings are capable of the sheer depth of unreason necessary to support the notion that a web server has perfect knowledge of the type of every file it might serve, or that this knowledge is even necessary!
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data in a way that it's not a problem anymore. i don't know what you're saying here. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
I'll admit I don't have anything quite as convenient as that for an
immediate undo. I'd put a cp in the shell loop and for undo: for(f in
*.orig) {mv $f `{echo $f | sed 's/.orig$//'}}. Or use a scm, e.g. git
reset --hard HEAD.
this is significantly more complicated for the user, and it doesn't
provide the same functinality. u in sam or acme can undo an
arbitrary number of times. you'd need an even more complicated
solution to undo two X commands, and in order to interact nicely
with external undo, *ever* edit would need to be saved externally.
no thanks. what we've got is better.
- erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
and if we were purists we'd ditch rio and run acme directly on the screen I tried this for a while when I was first starting to use plan 9. It didn't work out because essentials like page and mothra didn't fit in acme.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 02:33:19 +0100
Connor Lane Smith c...@lubutu.com wrote:
Hey,
On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote:
On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.
Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a
multi-file editor?
No. They precisely are a case of looping ed, or to be more exact,
looping sam -d. The regexp matches only the name, exactly as the glob
in for(f in glob). If you really want a regexp to match file names in
the shell you have `{ls | grep re}.
You may be able to approximate them by looping eds,
but that way you lose most of the benefits anyway. Like display
editing, and undo.
The X and Y commands are not display editing.
I think you have a point with undo, but I'm ambivalent about it.
Undoing the results of an X or Y command undoes the change in every
file. There's no reviewing each change individually, as you could if
your loop made backup files for example, or if you used a versioning
system. You could of course use a versioning system before running the
X or Y loop in your editor, but what I'm saying is using those commands
puts a great big block in your undo history. You could goof quite badly
by undoing one file too far and then saving and closing others, for
example, and *that* leads me strongly to the opinion that I'd rather
throw away my undo history than be caught out in such a way.
The more I think about the issues multi-file editing brings to undo the
less I like it. That's two reasons I have to dislike multi-file editors
now, the other being putting a window system in the editor instead of
putting the editor in a window (and operating) system.
--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 02:53:21 +0100 Connor Lane Smith c...@lubutu.com wrote: On 3 June 2012 02:40, Stephen Wiley swwi...@gmail.com wrote: One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps) Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels together... I remember reading this being cited as one of the reasons why sam's windows within a window flayer approach is preferred amongst long time users. In my opinion, if the window manager is having difficulty managing windows, it isn't doing a very good job. Instead of resorting to handling windowing within each and every application, we ought to treat the source of the problem. That may be by making rio group similar labels, but I'm inclined to think that a canal -- a tiling window manager, effectively -- would be a better approach in the long run. And I'm thinking of nested window managers of differing types according to the user's choice. I guess I didn't make that clear, judging by this and all the following posts in this subthread. ;) -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote:
On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.
Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a
multi-file editor?
No. They precisely are a case of looping ed, or to be more exact,
looping sam -d. The regexp matches only the name, exactly as the glob
in for(f in glob). If you really want a regexp to match file names in
the shell you have `{ls | grep re}.
i think you're ignoring the fact that any X command can be undone
by a single u command. this isn't just window dressing. (sorry.)
as you note, i can repeat {X ...; oops; u} as many times as necessary
then save all with X:':w.
how do you propose accompishing multi-file undo without a multi-file
editor?
- erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 23:15:51 -0400
erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote:
i think you're ignoring the fact that any X command can be undone
by a single u command. this isn't just window dressing. (sorry.)
as you note, i can repeat {X ...; oops; u} as many times as necessary
then save all with X:':w.
how do you propose accompishing multi-file undo without a multi-file
editor?
I'll admit I don't have anything quite as convenient as that for an
immediate undo. I'd put a cp in the shell loop and for undo: for(f in
*.orig) {mv $f `{echo $f | sed 's/.orig$//'}}. Or use a scm, e.g. git
reset --hard HEAD.
--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:40:11 +0300 Antonio Barrones antonio@gmail.com wrote: On May 31, 10:01 pm, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:55:57PM -0400, Burton Samograd wrote: so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does. Sounds a bit like emacs :) emacs plan9 manpage is one of my preferred. I do like the laconic: BUGS Yes. and I use sam... (off-topic) I see emacs more as a Lisp environment than an editor as sam o vi. Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, 31 May 2012 07:32:41 -0400 Anthony Sorace a...@9srv.net wrote: On May 31, 2012, at 0:10, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: This proper English is not the language of the English people... The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach himself what it sounds like. It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him. --George Bernard Shaw I'll agree to the hate part. TBH I hated the word snarf the moment I encountered it, but I didn't have to think at all to see how it fitted and my hate was quickly left behind. Then again, perhaps this quote would have been a more appropriate thing to post when snarf came up, rather than my ramblings. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 01:31:04 BST Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree. Eric suggested creating a new editor built on acme. I did think sacme would make a good name for a son of acme -- emacs rearranged : )
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:49:38 -0400 erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah, [...] i think the key here is that acme has reached the stage where if there were version numbers, we'd be restricted to fiddling the 5th digit. acme is great, but i think in terms of developing new ideas, it's time to move on. i'd like to see a new editor that builds on acme. the feature i'd like to see is support for images and layouts. the design element i'd like to see is lots of little programs rather than one big acme. so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does. I'd like to see acme split up. We already have page, we already have a shell window. What I want to see is a 1-file editor, 1-dir file lister (very simple), and a 1-page web browser. Put those with an acme-style rio (we can call it canal), and give all the apps right-click plumb and middle-click execute as appropriate. That would be my ideal project environment. We may be talking about the same thing but where you're saying a new editor I'm approaching it with the idea of enhancing the system and removing the need for a complex editor altogether. On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops... well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:43:57 -0700 Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote: On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 01:31:04 BST Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree. Eric suggested creating a new editor built on acme. I did think sacme would make a good name for a son of acme -- emacs rearranged : ) Ah yeah, nice. ;) -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Hey, On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops... well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor. Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a multi-file editor? You may be able to approximate them by looping eds, but that way you lose most of the benefits anyway. Like display editing, and undo. cls
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Jun 2, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: ... On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops... well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of. One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps) Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels together...
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat Jun 2 21:35:19 EDT 2012, c...@lubutu.com wrote: Hey, On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops... well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor. Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a multi-file editor? You may be able to approximate them by looping eds, but that way you lose most of the benefits anyway. Like display editing, and undo. +1. also, when working on a multi-file program, like say the kernel, i find it helpful to be able to work through a problem without having to think about the interface. to some extent, the question boils down to what is the editor and what is the window system. and if we were purists we'd ditch rio and run acme directly on the screen. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Sat Jun 2 20:45:23 EDT 2012, ba...@bitblocks.com wrote: On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 01:31:04 BST Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree. Eric suggested creating a new editor built on acme. I did think sacme would make a good name for a son of acme -- emacs rearranged : ) since the clone of the original was called wily, i'd suggest e.. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On 3 June 2012 02:40, Stephen Wiley swwi...@gmail.com wrote: One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps) Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels together... I remember reading this being cited as one of the reasons why sam's windows within a window flayer approach is preferred amongst long time users. In my opinion, if the window manager is having difficulty managing windows, it isn't doing a very good job. Instead of resorting to handling windowing within each and every application, we ought to treat the source of the problem. That may be by making rio group similar labels, but I'm inclined to think that a canal -- a tiling window manager, effectively -- would be a better approach in the long run. cls
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
shut up and back to work. nothing to see here. On 3 June 2012 11:53, Connor Lane Smith c...@lubutu.com wrote: On 3 June 2012 02:40, Stephen Wiley swwi...@gmail.com wrote: One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps) Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels together... I remember reading this being cited as one of the reasons why sam's windows within a window flayer approach is preferred amongst long time users. In my opinion, if the window manager is having difficulty managing windows, it isn't doing a very good job. Instead of resorting to handling windowing within each and every application, we ought to treat the source of the problem. That may be by making rio group similar labels, but I'm inclined to think that a canal -- a tiling window manager, effectively -- would be a better approach in the long run. cls -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:18 PM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah, Plan 9 doesn't use a lot of config files, but Acme is one of the most complex bits of software we've got. This could allow the addition of new functionality (like a switch to make Undo/Redo warp-to-location) while still maintaining Curmudgeon Mode (triggered by not having an acme.conf). Rob can predict the future and already answered to this a few days ago in golang-dev: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/golang-dev/ov2CtuwmNmM/QpOZvsGCBFkJ
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On May 31, 10:01 pm, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:55:57PM -0400, Burton Samograd wrote: so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does. Sounds a bit like emacs :) emacs plan9 manpage is one of my preferred. I do like the laconic: BUGS Yes. and I use sam... (off-topic) I see emacs more as a Lisp environment than an editor as sam o vi. Antonio
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 05:10:01AM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: This proper English is not the language of the English people, and I find it remarkable that there is so much so-called improperness in common between Britain and the US after 200 years of separation and 100 years of compulsory schooling. Since the thread is off topic, more off topicness is just on spot. When one is interested in creation, evolution, history of languages compared grammar---as I am---the huge differences in the formation of english and french for example are worth knowing. English is said (not by me, but by english philologists) to have come from lower classes---upper classes talking old french due to history. And there is some parallel between english and x86 language, and french or german and R.I.S.C. language: english have both very short overloaded with incompatible meanings words, the very used ones, and very long ones; that's why a lot of people think they speak english because with a bunch of very short ambiguous words they cover the day to day use. And this is why too pop music is using this english, because it is by far easier to put shortest words, almost onomatopoeia, on whatever music, than to have to find lengthy ones having a sense and matching the rhythm---and if people were generally understanding the meaning of the pop music texts they will probably far less like them... But to speak or to write a meaningful english, is far more difficult. And I would say that it is easier to start english than to achieve a correct level in english and I doubt that a non native english speaker can achieve it---because there are no written rules but a context that only a native speaker has: from the dictionnary, there are a lot of words that seem to convey the very same meaning; but a native speaker will use some in some context, and other in others; while in french too distinct words have never the very same meaning, and the nuance is established. So back to the initial off topic, there is a Plan9 idiom like the C language for localization: it ressembles some english easing to grasp the commands; but there are some actions that don't fit a short word and tastes vary, none being able to claim having _the_ solution; in this case the taste of the chief is the law, that is it's a convention and it is good and right because it is a convention in order to choose the colour once and for all, the material and the shape of the bikeshed being more essential. So in clear: to my taste, let us leave everything as it is historically; it is Plan9 language, not english, and if this is just as good as is than with an alternative, this means that this is better as is since it has established history. -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On May 31, 2012, at 0:10, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: This proper English is not the language of the English people... The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach himself what it sounds like. It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him. --George Bernard Shaw
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
But to speak or to write a meaningful english, is far more difficult. And I would say that it is easier to start english than to achieve a correct level in english and I doubt that a non native english speaker can achieve it---because there are no written rules but a context that only a native speaker has: from the dictionary, there are a lot of words that seem to convey the very same meaning; but a native speaker will use some in some context, and other in others; while in french too distinct words have never the very same meaning, and the nuance is established. three things on connotation vs. denotation as it's known in american high school english classes: - my wife proves you wrong. (don't worry. you're not alone.) nobody guesses that english is not her native tongue. - the rules are in proper dictionaries like the oed. entries include usage over time illustrated by quoted text and generally include the earliest known reference. - i think you're drawing perhaps too bright a line. new connotations for particular words crop up all the time, especially in small groups. i'm sure the one-word private joke is a common experience in many languages. i can recall a few from germany. schädelbräu comes to mind. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Aww, leave sam alone, he served us well for (so) many years, zerox is part of his baroque charm. if where to change any text, which i wouldn't, it would be snarf, which always draws comments from the uninitiated. the one real change that i think would be worthwhile would be a warp-to-location on undo or redo. i occasionally want to undo a little of the changes i have made, but if these are not in the current view its not easy to judge how many steps to undo. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Yes. Also, if anyone wants a different behavior, it´s easy to change to source so it fits your preferences. On May 31, 2012, at 8:05 PM, steve wrote: Aww, leave sam alone, he served us well for (so) many years, zerox is part of his baroque charm. if where to change any text, which i wouldn't, it would be snarf, which always draws comments from the uninitiated. the one real change that i think would be worthwhile would be a warp-to-location on undo or redo. i occasionally want to undo a little of the changes i have made, but if these are not in the current view its not easy to judge how many steps to undo. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah, [...] i think the key here is that acme has reached the stage where if there were version numbers, we'd be restricted to fiddling the 5th digit. acme is great, but i think in terms of developing new ideas, it's time to move on. i'd like to see a new editor that builds on acme. the feature i'd like to see is support for images and layouts. the design element i'd like to see is lots of little programs rather than one big acme. so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does. - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does. Sounds a bit like emacs :) -- Burton Samograd This e-mail, including accompanying communications and attachments, is strictly confidential and only for the intended recipient. Any retention, use or disclosure not expressly authorised by Markit is prohibited. This email is subject to all waivers and other terms at the following link: http://www.markit.com/en/about/legal/email-disclaimer.page Please visit http://www.markit.com/en/about/contact/contact-us.page? for contact information on our offices worldwide.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:00:35PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: - my wife proves you wrong. (don't worry. you're not alone.) nobody guesses that english is not her native tongue. But she lives in this U.S. context. I'm speaking about off the ground speakers. - the rules are in proper dictionaries like the oed. entries include usage over time illustrated by quoted text and generally include the earliest known reference. This does not contradict what I say. There are probably better, longer dictionnaries with quotations and the like. But for the main part, even in short french dictionnaries, there is no problem. Variations are only needed in some specific and YMMV grammatical situations. We have the Académie Française, and the language has been ruled _before_ mass came to schools. I do think that a foreigner can speak a perfect french while being off the ground. I doubt for high level english, and there are several levels in english---it is for example astonishing the difference in vocabulary (number of different words used) between an U.S. television series, and a British one; at least it was the case some years ago; you need far less words to follow an U.S. series... On the contrary, due to her poor imagination, an Agatha Christie novel can be used for english beginners (because she always does the same thing), while a John Dickson Carr will be more challenging. There is not such a dramatic difference in french: beautifully written french chooses better words, and organizes them better; but the words are the same. As usual, the difference is not in erudition (number of words), but in rules: the sentences constructed. - i think you're drawing perhaps too bright a line. new connotations for particular words crop up all the time, especially in small groups. i'm sure the one-word private joke is a common experience in many languages. i can recall a few from germany. schädelbräu comes to mind. In french, the creation is more with small sentences, than with overloading words. And new words are constructed by etymology (just a new specimen placed in the already established evolution tree) and by making a proper name a common one. Well, we are far off... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:55:57PM -0400, Burton Samograd wrote: so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does. Sounds a bit like emacs :) emacs plan9 manpage is one of my preferred. I do like the laconic: BUGS Yes. and I use sam... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted... On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: (Trolling unintentional) The misspelling of Xerox in Acme has bugged me for a long time. I want to suggest that we change it to Clone. Votes? ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted... All bikesheds need to be repainted eventually. ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:28:47PM -0700, John Floren wrote: Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted... But we don't agree on the colour... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:28:47PM -0700, John Floren wrote: Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted... But we don't agree on the colour... That's the thing about the bike shed: choosing a colour must not delay construction. But once it's built and it needs a new coat of paint, it is not unreasonable to discuss the choice of colours. ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
This is a bit silly. Zerox here (in the context of acme/Plan 9) has a well-understood meaning. Obvious etymology aside, it's essentially a made-up word here. It's beneficial that it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvious a priori (in the normal case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no expectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here). On May 30, 2012, at 2:30, Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: (Trolling unintentional) The misspelling of Xerox in Acme has bugged me for a long time. I want to suggest that we change it to Clone. Votes? ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvious a priori (in the normal case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no expectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here). I vote for Dup. Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger). dop. dop! make it stop! i can't not will not have a dop! - erik
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger). dop. dop! make it stop! i can't not will not have a dop! - erik copy?
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Calvin Morrison mutanttur...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger). dop. dop! make it stop! i can't not will not have a dop! - erik copy? That surely won't be confused with the Snarf functionality at all
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
copy? That surely won't be confused with the Snarf functionality at all And on second thought, maybe Dup is a bit too much like Dump ...
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On 30 May 2012 12:17, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Calvin Morrison mutanttur...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger). dop. dop! make it stop! i can't not will not have a dop! - erik copy? That surely won't be confused with the Snarf functionality at all Snarf is a dumb name. It isn't well named. tr.v. snarfed, snarf·ing, snarfs Slang To eat or drink rapidly or eagerly; devour: snarfed down some cookies. [Probably sn(ort) + (sc)arf.] Calvin
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
I'd prefer clown, because it reminds me of clone. ;) couldn't resist. On May 30, 2012, at 6:20 PM, Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: copy? That surely won't be confused with the Snarf functionality at all And on second thought, maybe Dup is a bit too much like Dump ...
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:23:02PM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote: Snarf is a dumb name. It isn't well named. This is because you are probably an english native speaker searching sensibility behind sounds or pictures (written text) that seem familiar to you. For the others---like me---the computer language is something that has not much to do with a lingua and could be almost arbitrary. There are times when being not an english native speaker has advantages... Because all the grammatical mistakes, repeated errors and nonsense uses will spoil your native language and you will have to switch to international english ruled by repeated hence agreed on, hence established errors... And when you will have to say sensible things, you will need to use a sensible language...[Demoniac laugh] -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
Snarf is not the same as Zerox. I suggest Xerox. Let them sue. On May 30, 2012, at 9:17 AM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Calvin Morrison mutanttur...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger). dop. dop! make it stop! i can't not will not have a dop! - erik copy? That surely won't be confused with the Snarf functionality at all
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
alles doofköppe hier? translation: this thread is so dope.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
ZARDOZ!!! -- cinap
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Wed, 30 May 2012 16:20:47 BST Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvi= ous a priori (in the normal case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no exp= ectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here). It just opens another window on the same file that starts out showing the same content so none of the names make sense. Seems no one has come up with a good name for this function -- in nvi it is :E and in vim, :split. I'd leave it alone. I used to use Dave Yost's Grand editor (a version of the Rand editor) that allowed scolling windows in X or Y direction in lockstep. Handy for editing tables. You can show the header line or the left most column while editing other rows or columns that would normally not show on the same screen in a single window.
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
I'd leave it alone. This. -sl
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
This is a bit silly. Zerox here (in the context of acme/Plan 9) has a well-understood meaning. Obvious etymology aside, it's essentially a made-up word here. It's beneficial that it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvious a priori (in the normal case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no expectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here). Well, there you go, somebody actually is willing to offer a valuable opinion. Thanks, Anthony. ++L
Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox - Clone
On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:42:21 +0200 tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:23:02PM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote: Snarf is a dumb name. It isn't well named. This is because you are probably an english native speaker searching sensibility behind sounds or pictures (written text) that seem familiar to you. For the others---like me---the computer language is something that has not much to do with a lingua and could be almost arbitrary. That's an interesting perspective but as a native English speaker I would disagree about the root of the problem. Snarf bothered my idiotic sense of propriety at first but I didn't have to consciously dissect it to get the meaning. I can make myself understood with slang and somewhat made-up words to most native English speakers whether they're English or American. There are two groups who don't get my natural pattern of speech. One is those who have taken proper English and believed all their lessons, whether they are natives with a social need to be proper or (more commonly) foreigners who have received a proper education in the language. This proper English is not the language of the English people, and I find it remarkable that there is so much so-called improperness in common between Britain and the US after 200 years of separation and 100 years of compulsory schooling. Even English slang has percolated down from the top, from the upper classes I guess, or at least those divorced from their linguistic heritage and subjected to a strict edumacation in ... okay, I won't rant, I really wont, but the old lower-class English used slang a lot like the US. That class of people had almost died out before US slang started filtering back in any substantial way. The other group who don't get it is those who take their slang from Spanish I think, but I'm much less clear on this point. uh.. I just noticed snarf wasn't picked up by my spell checker and isn't in its personal dictionary. Take that as you will. -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
