date:20171127

" I don't see how it's a separate issue." 

One was "handled" by net neutrality regulations, the other was not. 

Peering is one world, cache boxes are another world, transit and DIA are 
related but different and then consumer broadband is another world. All should 
be handled independently as they're all very different. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:02:40 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read 



-- Original Message -- 
From: fiber...@mail.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 11/27/2017 3:07:26 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read 

>>I don't see 
>>where he's blaming transit providers for anything. 
> See the paragraphs in the middle about Cogent. 
> 
>>The transit provider 
>>was an example of a technical point that most of the public is unaware 
>>of, but which complicates the discussion. 
> It complicates the discussion because it unnecessary conflates two 
>separate issues, last mile network neutrality and ASN interconnections. 
>If you want to talk about network neutrality, talk about network 
>neutrality. Don't bring peering policies into it, as that's a 
>completely separate issue. 
> 
How traffic gets from the content provider to the end user is the issue, 
isn't it? That typically involves 2-3 networks, if it's important how 
the last network in the chain handles it, why is it not important how 
the 1st, 2nd, or Nth network handles it? I don't see how it's a 
separate issue. 

> 
>> It's also an example of a way 
>>the open internet order could be completely circumvented.get your 
>>transit provider to do your traffic shaping. They're not an ISP so 
>>they 
>>don't count. 
> That's still a better end result than having the last mile ISP messing 
>with your packets. At least this way you know that if you manage to get 
>your packets onto the ISP's network then they won't f*** with them. 
> 
> It's also quite unlikely that ISPs would collude with transit 
>providers to have them do their traffic shaping. The incentives simply 
>don't align. Far likelier is that the ISP would simply let their 
>transits run hot to create congestion. 
You could be right. I was thinking along different lines.like maybe 
the provider upstream would want more than the ISP is willing to pay for 
such a service. If the ISP wants that function performed, and the law 
explicitly disallows the ISP while allowing the guys one level up to do 
it, then they may inadvertently create a market for traffic shaping 
among peers. You could even insert a peer into the path on purpose just 
to do this for you. 

> 
> 
> Peering policies have their own problems, but that's a different 
>kettle of fish. It's no secret that if network neutrality gets sorted 
>out, some of the problems will move to interconnection issues. 
> 
The last sentence might contradict your earlier statements that it's a 
separate issue. 

> 
> 
>>Can you point out the straw man? 
> Oh, there are so many. Here's a random selection: 
> - people want more competition. Network neutrality doesn't bring about 
>more competition, so don't demand network neutrality. 
> - low value content will destroy the internet, don't demand network 
>neutrality 
> - all bits are equal is a dangerous idea, don't demand network 
>neutrality 
> - the Internet will cave in without SLAs on interconnects, don't 
>demand network neutrality 
> - two sided markets will magically solve everything. Ignore 
>termination monopolies, significant market power and don't demand 
>network neutrality 
> - no ISP will ever do anything anti-competitive, that's a crazy idea, 
>don't demand network neutrality 
> - networks are expensive, thus network neutrality should not be 
>imposed 
A straw man argument is when the speaker re-states his opponent's case 
in a way that makes it easier to argue against it. The speaker has 
constructed the straw man so that he can destroy it easily. All but the 
first of your examples are statements of the author's opinions, but 
restated in ways that are easier to argue against. You are straw 
manning the author of the article with your examples of his straw 
manning. Can you re-state them in ways that illustrate how he is 
misrepresenting his opponents? 

I can see it with your first example, but not the others. Your first 
example, "People want more competition" could be an example of straw 
manning, because people in favor of the net neutrality rules aren't 
really making an argument that it creates competition (that I've seen). 
On the other hand, I went back and can't find any mention of competition 
in the article. I didn't re-read the whole thing, but ctrl+f says the 
words competition and compete are not present. 

I want to restate that I think I'm mostly neutral on the topic. I don't 
think removing the open internet order

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

-- Original Message --
From: fiber...@mail.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/27/2017 3:07:26 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

I don't see
where he's blaming transit providers for anything.

 See the paragraphs in the middle about Cogent.

The transit provider
was an example of a technical point that most of the public is unaware
of, but which complicates the discussion.
 It complicates the discussion because it unnecessary conflates two 
separate issues, last mile network neutrality and ASN interconnections. 
If you want to talk about network neutrality, talk about network 
neutrality. Don't bring peering policies into it, as that's a 
completely separate issue.

How traffic gets from the content provider to the end user is the issue, 
isn't it?  That typically involves 2-3 networks, if it's important how 
the last network in the chain handles it, why is it not important how 
the 1st, 2nd, or Nth network handles it?  I don't see how it's a 
separate issue.

 It's also an example of a way
the open internet order could be completely circumvented.get your
transit provider to do your traffic shaping.  They're not an ISP so 
they

don't count.
 That's still a better end result than having the last mile ISP messing 
with your packets. At least this way you know that if you manage to get 
your packets onto the ISP's network then they won't f*** with them.

 It's also quite unlikely that ISPs would collude with transit 
providers to have them do their traffic shaping. The incentives simply 
don't align. Far likelier is that the ISP would simply let their 
transits run hot to create congestion.
You could be right.  I was thinking along different lines.like maybe 
the provider upstream would want more than the ISP is willing to pay for 
such a service.  If the ISP wants that function performed, and the law 
explicitly disallows the ISP while allowing the guys one level up to do 
it, then they may inadvertently create a market for traffic shaping 
among peers.  You could even insert a peer into the path on purpose just 
to do this for you.

 Peering policies have their own problems, but that's a different 
kettle of fish. It's no secret that if network neutrality gets sorted 
out, some of the problems will move to interconnection issues.

The last sentence might contradict your earlier statements that it's a 
separate issue.

Can you point out the straw man?

 Oh, there are so many. Here's a random selection:
 - people want more competition. Network neutrality doesn't bring about 
more competition, so don't demand network neutrality.
 - low value content will destroy the internet, don't demand network 
neutrality
 - all bits are equal is a dangerous idea, don't demand network 
neutrality
 - the Internet will cave in without SLAs on interconnects, don't 
demand network neutrality
 - two sided markets will magically solve everything. Ignore 
termination monopolies, significant market power and don't demand 
network neutrality
 - no ISP will ever do anything anti-competitive, that's a crazy idea, 
don't demand network neutrality
 - networks are expensive, thus network neutrality should not be 
imposed
A straw man argument is when the speaker re-states his opponent's case 
in a way that makes it easier to argue against it. The speaker has 
constructed the straw man so that he can destroy it easily. All but the 
first of your examples are statements of the author's opinions, but 
restated in ways that are easier to argue against.  You are straw 
manning the author of the article with your examples of his straw 
manning.  Can you re-state them in ways that illustrate how he is 
misrepresenting his opponents?

I can see it with your first example, but not the others.  Your first 
example, "People want more competition" could be an example of straw 
manning, because people in favor of the net neutrality rules aren't 
really making an argument that it creates competition (that I've seen).  
On the other hand, I went back and can't find any mention of competition 
in the article.  I didn't re-read the whole thing, but ctrl+f says the 
words competition and compete are not present.

I want to restate that I think I'm mostly neutral on the topic.  I don't 
think removing the open internet order will have the effect that some 
commenters seem to be saying.  OTOH I also don't think the FCC Chairman 
or certain large providers are being up front about why they want to 
remove the rules.  I have suspicions about why, but my suspicions are 
mostly conjecture since these guys aren't really coming out and saying 
anything very convincing.  The Chairman was on TV arguing that we were 
doing fine without the rules and therefore we don't need them, and that 
seems to be all he's got.

The debate (on Facebook and Quora at least) annoys me to death because 
most people on both sides are making a case in which an outcome is 
claimed without building an effective case on how that outcome

Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

All the new controllers that I have seen have a dry contract for failures.
Of course the controller has to be working. I am afraid there are about a
dozen manufacturers each with several models. That's a pretty big matrix.

We just installed one last week with steady side lights because the
customer didn't want to apply for the new E class system without sidelights
so they have an all LED system with solid side lights and 3 flashing
beacons.

It has a dry contract off the controller.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 7:23 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.  I
> always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully
> functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current
> changed.
>
> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
> *To:* af
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights
>
> One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower
> light monitoring.
>
> It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower
> light monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base
> unit.  Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with
> incandescent, and most people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm
> getting a lot of 'I haven't found one which will work with led lights'.
>
> I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay
> outputs for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate
> that this is a lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the
> lighting controller is the problem, especially with newer led lights which
> don't fail as much.
>
> As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.
> But I need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers,
> especially since things have changed over the years, and some older towers
> I'm sure are grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.
>
> The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA
> circular seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.
> Are all tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a
> tower blink at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot
> easier, since there's only two lighting levels to monitoring.
>
> I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My
> google searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have
> a control box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and
> sometimes provide a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this
> common?  What other systems are out there?
>
> I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need to
> think about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.
> Anyone install one of these?
>
> I'm also curious about what type of power consumption the newer LED lights
> have, and if measuring AC current is really even practical on these.
>
> Any other information anyone can point me toward would be appreciated.
>
> --
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> 
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
>   
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

Traditionally, it would be Comcast's expense. Cogent doesn't pay to upgrade 
their connection to Midwest WiFi. Cogent was willing, Comcast was not. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Dennis Burgess"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 5:52:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read 

Furthermore, 

I don't necessary agree with this. 

Remember, Netflix is the one paying Cogent and Cogent is selling Netflix on the 
principle that it can get all of Netflix’s traffic into an ISP like Comcast. As 
a result, Cogent has to take all the necessary business steps to make sure 
Cogent has enough capacity to pass Netflix’s traffic on from Cogent’s network 
to Comcast. But Cogent isn’t doing that. 

Is that right, Cogent is responsible to upgrade peers with anyone who wishes to 
get traffic from them and/or pay to transit traffic from cogent? 

Is not a ISP someone who purchases bandwidth from a upstream, who can get them 
to the internet? Is that not what Comcast is doing.? 

Someone educate me? 



Dennis Burgess 
www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 – dmburg...@linktechs.net 


-Original Message- 
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 1:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read 

> https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html 

Nah, it falls down on its face pretty hard. 

Dan basically posits that it's all the fault of transit providers, completely 
ignoring the fact that the transit market is a competitive market whereas last 
mile providers have a termination monopoly. That's just silly. 

The article is also so full of straw men, it's almost like Dan is stocking up 
for a Guy Fawkes festival. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.  I 
always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully 
functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current changed.  

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
To: af 
Subject: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower light 
monitoring. 

It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower light 
monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base unit.  
Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with incandescent, and most 
people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm getting a lot of 'I haven't found 
one which will work with led lights'.

I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay outputs 
for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate that this is a 
lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the lighting controller 
is the problem, especially with newer led lights which don't fail as much.

As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.   But I 
need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers, especially since 
things have changed over the years, and some older towers I'm sure are 
grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.

The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA circular 
seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.   Are all 
tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a tower blink 
at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot easier, since there's 
only two lighting levels to monitoring.

I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My google 
searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have a control 
box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and sometimes provide 
a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this common?  What other 
systems are out there?

I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need to think 
about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.   Anyone 
install one of these?

I'm also curious about what type of power consumption the newer LED lights 
have, and if measuring AC current is really even practical on these.

Any other information anyone can point me toward would be appreciated.

-- 

  Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

  Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
  forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Jason McKemie

I would expect them to just shut off if this were the case.

On Monday, November 27, 2017, Robert Andrews  wrote:

> You would almost expect the cars on the Tesla Lot to have virtual walls,
> that if they are driven out of without a release by the dealership, they
> phone home and report being out of the castle and location and dammit send
> the cops and rescue me before they slice me up for the battery and ipad...
>
> On 11/27/2017 01:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
>> considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular
>> data connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only
>> effective way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 MHz
>> jammer with you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming that your
>> goal would be to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and not resell it
>> as a drivable vehicle.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown  ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
>> *To:* af
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
>> Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
>> I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
>> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown 
>> wrote:
>>
>> In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4
>> Teslas.
>> Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the
>> theft:
>> We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually
>> have two people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member
>> died and left them these cars.”Keller said.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
>> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
>> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>>

[AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

2017-11-27 Thread Forrest Christian (List Account)

One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower
light monitoring.

It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower
light monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base
unit.  Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with
incandescent, and most people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm
getting a lot of 'I haven't found one which will work with led lights'.

I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay
outputs for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate
that this is a lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the
lighting controller is the problem, especially with newer led lights which
don't fail as much.

As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.   But
I need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers, especially
since things have changed over the years, and some older towers I'm sure
are grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.

The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA
circular seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.
 Are all tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a
tower blink at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot
easier, since there's only two lighting levels to monitoring.

I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My
google searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have
a control box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and
sometimes provide a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this
common?  What other systems are out there?

I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need to
think about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.
 Anyone install one of these?

I'm also curious about what type of power consumption the newer LED lights
have, and if measuring AC current is really even practical on these.

Any other information anyone can point me toward would be appreciated.

-- 
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] Day one..

2017-11-27 Thread Jaime Solorza

Good idea...we are control and radios guys on project. Park Hill Smith and
Cooper are the engineers..

Jaime Solorza

On Nov 27, 2017 6:46 PM, "Lewis Bergman"  wrote:

> Have you ever considered precasting? We do some of this and it can save a
> lot of time,  trips,  and issues on remote sites like delivery it mileage
> charges.
>
> Having said that, it can cost more make ready. On small tower foundations
> we have done some pretty large foundations this way. Normally casting slabs
> in 6 or 12 inch thickness with four holes that are then bolted together
> with very large bolts all the way through. Did hole, 2 inches of sand in
> bottom. Start dropping them in and bolting them up.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 6:20 PM Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Well off to bad start...the outfit that is making the pit and cement work
>> for tower will not start next week
>>
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Day one..

Have you ever considered precasting? We do some of this and it can save a
lot of time,  trips,  and issues on remote sites like delivery it mileage
charges.

Having said that, it can cost more make ready. On small tower foundations
we have done some pretty large foundations this way. Normally casting slabs
in 6 or 12 inch thickness with four holes that are then bolted together
with very large bolts all the way through. Did hole, 2 inches of sand in
bottom. Start dropping them in and bolting them up.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 6:20 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> Well off to bad start...the outfit that is making the pit and cement work
> for tower will not start next week
>
>
> Jaime Solorza
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

2017-11-27 Thread Steve Jones

whatever you do, if youve loaded any backup, never, ever click the eyeball
on the password field, you will regret it. sometimes it corrupts the
password, sometimes the radio becomes inaccessible, sometimes it will have
a never ending save. Epmp is some cost effective rock solid gear, but man,
does it have some caveats (btw if you are doing firmware upgrade, do it in
chrome incognito tab and you wont have to restart your browser)

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

> Ah yeah, you're right. The reason I thought you could do json is that it
> says json in the documentation, but it actually does a bin.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> Last I looked there was OID to build the backup and a second OID to grab
>> it (another OID exists to check the status of the backup generation).
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> 
>> Suite 1337
>> 
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> 
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Mathew Howard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought you could do either with SNMP... but it's been awhile since
>>> I've messed with that, so I could be wrong.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Josh Luthman <
>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>
 They did change that recently, which is nice.

 But I believe the automatic backups with SNMP are still bin.


 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
 Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
 1100 Wayne St
 
 Suite 1337
 
 Troy, OH 45373
 

 On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:54 PM, George Skorup <
 george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:

> Password backups work with text/json just fine. The only thing is, an
> account cannot be disabled. I completely gave up on the binary backups.
>
> On 11/27/2017 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Binary backupsso I have the logins...
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> 
> Suite 1337
> 
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you
>> could just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman <
>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to
>>> them.  This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key,
>>> it's completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.
>>>
>>> I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other
>>> config parameter and let me buy a license for it!
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 <%28937%29%20552-2340>
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <%28937%29%20552-2343>
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> 
>>> Suite 1337
>>> 
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup <
>>> george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:
>>>
 I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues
 with that.


 On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

> Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
> Tried from a different machine (that I

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

I presumed Cogent did it at the request of Comcast.  After all, Netflix 
creates less demand for their CATV offering.

-Original Message- 
From: Dennis Burgess

Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 4:29 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

I take two parts to this..

1. So when Cogent, a transit provider that sits in the middle of content 
owners and ISPs was caught prioritizing Netflix’s traffic into Comcast, why 
weren’t proponents of net neutrality up in arms? Why weren’t they calling on 
the FCC to do something? [Cogent Now Admits They Slowed Down Netflix’s 
Traffic, Creating A Fast Lane & Slow Lane]

2. The idea that an ISP is going to purposely slow down or degrade the 
experience of their user by harming Netflix, Amazon, or Apple’s content is 
ludicrous.

These are in two paragraphs, but still, don't these two sentences 
contradict one other?   Maybe I am wrong?

Guess the difference now that I look at it is one is a transit provider and 
the other is an ISP, the net neutrality order has nothing in it for transit 
providers, but cogent is a ISP as well with many lit buildings on-net, so 
where does that difference begin?

Just questions :)

Dennis Burgess
www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 – dmburg...@linktechs.net

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 3:09 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

I think you're reading this through glasses tinted to whatever 
predisposition you have to the issue.

 Obvious I have my own biases, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong :)

 Now, I never claimed I was impartial or unbiased, but the article in 
question does not rise to the standard of "best NN article" or even try to 
be impartial or unbiased in any way. A lot of what Dan writes is true, but I 
do take exception to a lot of the framing and editorialization. It 
completely ignores the primary issues, the facts of termination monopoly and 
how lacking last mile competition influences network neutrality, while 
subtly laying the blame on other secondary issues.

"Don't bring peering policies into it, as that's a completely separate 
issue."

That's what most people are pointing to as NN violations, though.

 Well, most people are idiots, so that doesn't count for much :)

 Jesting aside, the Internet order explicitly says:

 "30. But this Order does not apply the open Internet rules to 
interconnection."

 Thus anybody claiming otherwise should just shut up.

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

2017-11-27 Thread Dennis Burgess

Furthermore,

I don't necessary agree with this.

Remember, Netflix is the one paying Cogent and Cogent is selling Netflix on the 
principle that it can get all of Netflix’s traffic into an ISP like Comcast. As 
a result, Cogent has to take all the necessary business steps to make sure 
Cogent has enough capacity to pass Netflix’s traffic on from Cogent’s network 
to Comcast. But Cogent isn’t doing that.

Is that right, Cogent is responsible to upgrade peers with anyone who wishes to 
get traffic from them and/or pay to transit traffic from cogent? 

Is not a ISP someone who purchases bandwidth from a upstream, who can get them 
to the internet?  Is that not what Comcast is doing.?  

Someone educate me? 



Dennis Burgess
www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 – dmburg...@linktechs.net 


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

> https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html

Nah, it falls down on its face pretty hard. 

Dan basically posits that it's all the fault of transit providers, completely 
ignoring the fact that the transit market is a competitive market whereas last 
mile providers have a termination monopoly. That's just silly. 

The article is also so full of straw men, it's almost like Dan is stocking up 
for a Guy Fawkes festival. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

2017-11-27 Thread Dennis Burgess

I take two parts to this.. 

1. So when Cogent, a transit provider that sits in the middle of content owners 
and ISPs was caught prioritizing Netflix’s traffic into Comcast, why weren’t 
proponents of net neutrality up in arms? Why weren’t they calling on the FCC to 
do something? [Cogent Now Admits They Slowed Down Netflix’s Traffic, Creating A 
Fast Lane & Slow Lane]

2. The idea that an ISP is going to purposely slow down or degrade the 
experience of their user by harming Netflix, Amazon, or Apple’s content is 
ludicrous.

These are in two paragraphs, but still, don't these two sentences  contradict 
one other?   Maybe I am wrong? 

Guess the difference now that I look at it is one is a transit provider and the 
other is an ISP, the net neutrality order has nothing in it for transit 
providers, but cogent is a ISP as well with many lit buildings on-net, so  
where does that difference begin?  

Just questions :) 



Dennis Burgess
www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 – dmburg...@linktechs.net 


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 3:09 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

> I think you're reading this through glasses tinted to whatever predisposition 
> you have to the issue.
  Obvious I have my own biases, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong :)

  Now, I never claimed I was impartial or unbiased, but the article in question 
does not rise to the standard of "best NN article" or even try to be impartial 
or unbiased in any way. A lot of what Dan writes is true, but I do take 
exception to a lot of the framing and editorialization. It completely ignores 
the primary issues, the facts of termination monopoly and how lacking last mile 
competition influences network neutrality, while subtly laying the blame on 
other secondary issues. 


> "Don't bring peering policies into it, as that's a completely separate issue."
> That's what most people are pointing to as NN violations, though.
  Well, most people are idiots, so that doesn't count for much :)

  Jesting aside, the Internet order explicitly says:

  "30. But this Order does not apply the open Internet rules to 
interconnection."

  Thus anybody claiming otherwise should just shut up. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Tower Climber Insurance premium went 25k up for one guy.

2017-11-27 Thread Keefe John

What code are they rating your tower climber as?  How much are you 
paying this guy?  WC is a percentage of actual wages.


Keefe


On 11/27/2017 4:18 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
in colorado workman's comp is handled by a quasi government 
monopoly/private provider, they are the only entity that can provide 
in our state.


they have us report what percentage of time per year the employee does 
each role.  so our main tower climber is maybe 30% (probably less tho) 
tower work with the other 70% in office or other jobs etc.  think 
about how many hours (out of 2080 work hours per year) are actually on 
a tower.  As a WISP it's a lot less hours/year (since we do so many 
random things) compared to say a guy who's only job is going to AT 
towers all day, everyday, year round.


-sean


On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Sam Lambie > wrote:


What/Who do you guys use for tower climbers and workmans comp to
cover them in case of an accident?
Sam

-- 
-- 
*Sam Lambie*

Taosnet Wireless Tech.
575-758-7598  Office
www.Taosnet.com

Re: [AFMUG] Tower Climber Insurance premium went 25k up for one guy.

2017-11-27 Thread Sean Heskett

in colorado workman's comp is handled by a quasi government
monopoly/private provider, they are the only entity that can provide in our
state.

they have us report what percentage of time per year the employee does each
role.  so our main tower climber is maybe 30% (probably less tho) tower
work with the other 70% in office or other jobs etc.  think about how many
hours (out of 2080 work hours per year) are actually on a tower.  As a WISP
it's a lot less hours/year (since we do so many random things) compared to
say a guy who's only job is going to AT towers all day, everyday, year
round.

-sean

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Sam Lambie  wrote:

> What/Who do you guys use for tower climbers and workmans comp to cover
> them in case of an accident?
> Sam
>
> --
> --
> *Sam Lambie*
> Taosnet Wireless Tech.
> 575-758-7598 <(575)%20758-7598> Office
> www.Taosnet.com 
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

Ah yeah, you're right. The reason I thought you could do json is that it
says json in the documentation, but it actually does a bin.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Last I looked there was OID to build the backup and a second OID to grab
> it (another OID exists to check the status of the backup generation).
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> 
> Suite 1337
> 
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> I thought you could do either with SNMP... but it's been awhile since
>> I've messed with that, so I could be wrong.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Josh Luthman <
>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> They did change that recently, which is nice.
>>>
>>> But I believe the automatic backups with SNMP are still bin.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> 
>>> Suite 1337
>>> 
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:54 PM, George Skorup >> > wrote:
>>>
 Password backups work with text/json just fine. The only thing is, an
 account cannot be disabled. I completely gave up on the binary backups.

 On 11/27/2017 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 Binary backupsso I have the logins...


 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
 Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
 1100 Wayne St
 
 Suite 1337
 
 Troy, OH 45373
 

 On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard 
 wrote:

> That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you
> could just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman <
> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>
>> 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to
>> them.  This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key,
>> it's completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.
>>
>> I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other
>> config parameter and let me buy a license for it!
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 <%28937%29%20552-2340>
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <%28937%29%20552-2343>
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> 
>> Suite 1337
>> 
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> 
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup <
>> george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with
>>> that.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>>>
 Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
 Tried from a different machine (that I have never
 accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.

 Thanks.


>>>
>>
>


>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Day one..

2017-11-27 Thread Jaime Solorza

Glass Ranch in Lubbock... pretty country...seen wild turkey, mule deer and
a feral pig family...our contact here has his hunting bow gear...

Jaime Solorza

On Nov 27, 2017 3:46 PM, "Jaime Solorza"  wrote:

> Well off to bad start...the outfit that is making the pit and cement work
> for tower will not start until next week
>
> Jaime Solorza
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Robert Andrews

Or if you watched youtube vids you would know where the "Slice Battery 
Cable Here" disconnect is to shut down everything...


On 11/27/2017 01:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
or if you were an organized auto theft gang with a flatbed tow truck, 
and unusually high respect for the FCC, I suppose you could pull a model 
S onto a truck and wrap it in a faraday cage blanket.


On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Bill Prince > wrote:


So in addition to grand theft auto, you get to deal with the FCC for
jamming licensed airwaves?

Yeah. Why not go for the whole enchilada.

bp


On 11/27/2017 1:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent
cellular data connection back to tesla's servers, and built in
GPS...  the only effective way to steal one would be to bring a
wide spectrum 650-2500 MHz jammer with you, and keep the jammer on
at all times. assuming that your goal would be to disassemble it
for parts fairly quickly and not resell it as a drivable vehicle.


On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown > wrote:

I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown
 wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with
4 Teslas.
Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about
the theft:
We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We
actually have two people claiming their name is Tesla and
a family member died and left them these cars.”Keller said.



-- 
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT
59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Robert Andrews

You stole a car, I would think an FCC bust is going to be mouse nuts in 
comparison...


On 11/27/2017 01:22 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
So in addition to grand theft auto, you get to deal with the FCC for 
jamming licensed airwaves?


Yeah. Why not go for the whole enchilada.

bp


On 11/27/2017 1:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular 
data connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only 
effective way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 
MHz jammer with you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming 
that your goal would be to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and 
not resell it as a drivable vehicle.



On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown > wrote:


I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4
Teslas.
Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the
theft:
We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We
actually have two people claiming their name is Tesla and a
family member died and left them these cars.”Keller said.



-- 
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

Last I looked there was OID to build the backup and a second OID to grab it
(another OID exists to check the status of the backup generation).


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

> I thought you could do either with SNMP... but it's been awhile since I've
> messed with that, so I could be wrong.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> They did change that recently, which is nice.
>>
>> But I believe the automatic backups with SNMP are still bin.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> 
>> Suite 1337
>> 
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> 
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:54 PM, George Skorup 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Password backups work with text/json just fine. The only thing is, an
>>> account cannot be disabled. I completely gave up on the binary backups.
>>>
>>> On 11/27/2017 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>>>
>>> Binary backupsso I have the logins...
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> 
>>> Suite 1337
>>> 
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you could
 just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.

 On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman <
 j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:

> 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to
> them.  This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key,
> it's completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.
>
> I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other
> config parameter and let me buy a license for it!
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <%28937%29%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <%28937%29%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> 
> Suite 1337
> 
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup <
> george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:
>
>> I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with
>> that.
>>
>>
>> On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
>>> Tried from a different machine (that I have never
>>> accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Paul McCall

That’s the best (funniest) answer yet.   Oceans 11 type stuff

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 4:26 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

or if you were an organized auto theft gang with a flatbed tow truck, and 
unusually high respect for the FCC, I suppose you could pull a model S onto a 
truck and wrap it in a faraday cage blanket.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Bill Prince 
> wrote:

So in addition to grand theft auto, you get to deal with the FCC for jamming 
licensed airwaves?

Yeah. Why not go for the whole enchilada.

bp

On 11/27/2017 1:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular data 
connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only effective way 
to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 MHz jammer with you, 
and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming that your goal would be to 
disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and not resell it as a drivable vehicle.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown 
> wrote:
I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.

From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
To: af
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?

I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown 
> wrote:
In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.

Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:

We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have two 
people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left them 
these cars.” Keller said.

--
Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | 
http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Eric Kuhnke

or if you were an organized auto theft gang with a flatbed tow truck, and
unusually high respect for the FCC, I suppose you could pull a model S onto
a truck and wrap it in a faraday cage blanket.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:

> So in addition to grand theft auto, you get to deal with the FCC for
> jamming licensed airwaves?
>
> Yeah. Why not go for the whole enchilada.
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 11/27/2017 1:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
> considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular data
> connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only effective
> way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 MHz jammer with
> you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming that your goal would be
> to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and not resell it as a drivable
> vehicle.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
>>
>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
>> *To:* af
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
>>
>> Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
>>
>> I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
>>>
>>> Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
>>>
>>> We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have
>>> two people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left
>>> them these cars.” Keller said.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
>> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
>> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>> 
>>   
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Eric Kuhnke

just a guess, but if you're already committing felony auto theft, the FCC
is probably the least of your worries. :)


On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:

> So in addition to grand theft auto, you get to deal with the FCC for
> jamming licensed airwaves?
>
> Yeah. Why not go for the whole enchilada.
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 11/27/2017 1:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
> considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular data
> connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only effective
> way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 MHz jammer with
> you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming that your goal would be
> to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and not resell it as a drivable
> vehicle.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
>>
>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
>> *To:* af
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
>>
>> Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
>>
>> I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
>>>
>>> Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
>>>
>>> We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have
>>> two people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left
>>> them these cars.” Keller said.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
>> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
>> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>> 
>>   
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Bill Prince

So in addition to grand theft auto, you get to deal with the FCC for 
jamming licensed airwaves?


Yeah. Why not go for the whole enchilada.

bp


On 11/27/2017 1:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular 
data connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only 
effective way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 
MHz jammer with you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming 
that your goal would be to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and 
not resell it as a drivable vehicle.



On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown > wrote:


I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4
Teslas.
Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the
theft:
We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We
actually have two people claiming their name is Tesla and a
family member died and left them these cars.”Keller said.



-- 
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Robert Andrews

You would almost expect the cars on the Tesla Lot to have virtual walls, 
that if they are driven out of without a release by the dealership, they 
phone home and report being out of the castle and location and dammit 
send the cops and rescue me before they slice me up for the battery and 
ipad...


On 11/27/2017 01:14 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular 
data connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only 
effective way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 
MHz jammer with you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming that 
your goal would be to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and not 
resell it as a drivable vehicle.



On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown > wrote:


I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually
have two people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member
died and left them these cars.”Keller said.



-- 
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

2017-11-27 Thread Eric Kuhnke

considering that a powered-on tesla model S has a persistent cellular data
connection back to tesla's servers, and built in GPS...  the only effective
way to steal one would be to bring a wide spectrum 650-2500 MHz jammer with
you, and keep the jammer on at all times. assuming that your goal would be
to disassemble it for parts fairly quickly and not resell it as a drivable
vehicle.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
>
> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
> *To:* af
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
>
> Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
>
> I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
>>
>> Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
>>
>> We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have two
>> people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left them
>> these cars.” Keller said.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
>   
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

2017-11-27 Thread fiberrun

> I think you're reading this through glasses tinted to whatever predisposition 
> you have to the issue.
  Obvious I have my own biases, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong :)

  Now, I never claimed I was impartial or unbiased, but the article in question 
does not rise to the standard of "best NN article" or even try to be impartial 
or unbiased in any way. A lot of what Dan writes is true, but I do take 
exception to a lot of the framing and editorialization. It completely ignores 
the primary issues, the facts of termination monopoly and how lacking last mile 
competition influences network neutrality, while subtly laying the blame on 
other secondary issues. 


> "Don't bring peering policies into it, as that's a completely separate issue."
> That's what most people are pointing to as NN violations, though.
  Well, most people are idiots, so that doesn't count for much :)

  Jesting aside, the Internet order explicitly says:

  "30. But this Order does not apply the open Internet rules to 
interconnection."

  Thus anybody claiming otherwise should just shut up. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

I thought you could do either with SNMP... but it's been awhile since I've
messed with that, so I could be wrong.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> They did change that recently, which is nice.
>
> But I believe the automatic backups with SNMP are still bin.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> 
> Suite 1337
> 
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:54 PM, George Skorup 
> wrote:
>
>> Password backups work with text/json just fine. The only thing is, an
>> account cannot be disabled. I completely gave up on the binary backups.
>>
>> On 11/27/2017 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>>
>> Binary backupsso I have the logins...
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> 
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you could
>>> just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman <
>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>
 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to
 them.  This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key,
 it's completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.

 I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other
 config parameter and let me buy a license for it!


 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340 <%28937%29%20552-2340>
 Direct: 937-552-2343 <%28937%29%20552-2343>
 1100 Wayne St
 
 Suite 1337
 
 Troy, OH 45373
 

 On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup <
 george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:

> I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with
> that.
>
>
> On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>
>> Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
>> Tried from a different machine (that I have never
>> accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>

>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

They did change that recently, which is nice.

But I believe the automatic backups with SNMP are still bin.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:54 PM, George Skorup 
wrote:

> Password backups work with text/json just fine. The only thing is, an
> account cannot be disabled. I completely gave up on the binary backups.
>
> On 11/27/2017 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Binary backupsso I have the logins...
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> 
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you could
>> just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman <
>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to them.
>>> This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key, it's
>>> completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.
>>>
>>> I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other
>>> config parameter and let me buy a license for it!
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 <%28937%29%20552-2340>
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <%28937%29%20552-2343>
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> 
>>> Suite 1337
>>> 
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup <
>>> george.sko...@cbcast.com> wrote:
>>>
 I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with
 that.


 On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

> Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
> Tried from a different machine (that I have never
> accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.
>
> Thanks.
>
>

>>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

2017-11-27 Thread George Skorup

Password backups work with text/json just fine. The only thing is, an 
account cannot be disabled. I completely gave up on the binary backups.

On 11/27/2017 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Binary backupsso I have the logins...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard > wrote:

That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you
could just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and
use it.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman
>
wrote:

3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached
to them.  This means that if you backup your lite AP with an
upgraded key, it's completely useless on an AP that's running
3.3 - 3.5.

I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every
other config parameter and let me buy a license for it!

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St

Suite 1337

Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup
>
wrote:

I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less
issues with that.

On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
Tried from a different machine (that I have never
accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.

Thanks.

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

Binary backupsso I have the logins...


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

> That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you could
> just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to them.
>> This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key, it's
>> completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.
>>
>> I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other config
>> parameter and let me buy a license for it!
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> 
>> Suite 1337
>> 
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> 
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup > > wrote:
>>
>>> I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with
>>> that.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>>>
 Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
 Tried from a different machine (that I have never
 accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.

 Thanks.


>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

That is annoying, but if you're doing JSON backups, I'd think you could
just edit the key out of the backup with a text editor and use it.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> 3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to them.
> This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key, it's
> completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.
>
> I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other config
> parameter and let me buy a license for it!
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> 
> Suite 1337
> 
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup 
> wrote:
>
>> I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with that.
>>
>>
>> On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
>>> Tried from a different machine (that I have never
>>> accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

3.3 through 3.5 can not accept backups with a license attached to them.
This means that if you backup your lite AP with an upgraded key, it's
completely useless on an AP that's running 3.3 - 3.5.

I don't expect the license to work at all, but give me every other config
parameter and let me buy a license for it!

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:29 AM, George Skorup 
wrote:

> I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with that.
>
>
> On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>
>> Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
>> Tried from a different machine (that I have never
>> accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

I think you're reading this through glasses tinted to whatever predisposition 
you have to the issue. 

"Don't bring peering policies into it, as that's a completely separate issue." 
That's what most people are pointing to as NN violations, though. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: fiber...@mail.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 2:07:25 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read 

> I don't see 
> where he's blaming transit providers for anything. 
See the paragraphs in the middle about Cogent. 

> The transit provider 
> was an example of a technical point that most of the public is unaware 
> of, but which complicates the discussion. 
It complicates the discussion because it unnecessary conflates two separate 
issues, last mile network neutrality and ASN interconnections. If you want to 
talk about network neutrality, talk about network neutrality. Don't bring 
peering policies into it, as that's a completely separate issue. 

> It's also an example of a way 
> the open internet order could be completely circumvented.get your 
> transit provider to do your traffic shaping. They're not an ISP so they 
> don't count. 
That's still a better end result than having the last mile ISP messing with 
your packets. At least this way you know that if you manage to get your packets 
onto the ISP's network then they won't f*** with them. 

It's also quite unlikely that ISPs would collude with transit providers to have 
them do their traffic shaping. The incentives simply don't align. Far likelier 
is that the ISP would simply let their transits run hot to create congestion. 

Peering policies have their own problems, but that's a different kettle of 
fish. It's no secret that if network neutrality gets sorted out, some of the 
problems will move to interconnection issues. 


> Can you point out the straw man? 
Oh, there are so many. Here's a random selection: 
- people want more competition. Network neutrality doesn't bring about more 
competition, so don't demand network neutrality. 
- low value content will destroy the internet, don't demand network neutrality 
- all bits are equal is a dangerous idea, don't demand network neutrality 
- the Internet will cave in without SLAs on interconnects, don't demand network 
neutrality 
- two sided markets will magically solve everything. Ignore termination 
monopolies, significant market power and don't demand network neutrality 
- no ISP will ever do anything anti-competitive, that's a crazy idea, don't 
demand network neutrality 
- networks are expensive, thus network neutrality should not be imposed 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

2017-11-27 Thread fiberrun

> I don't see 
> where he's blaming transit providers for anything. 
  See the paragraphs in the middle about Cogent. 

> The transit provider 
> was an example of a technical point that most of the public is unaware 
> of, but which complicates the discussion.
  It complicates the discussion because it unnecessary conflates two separate 
issues, last mile network neutrality and ASN interconnections. If you want to 
talk about network neutrality, talk about network neutrality. Don't bring 
peering policies into it, as that's a completely separate issue. 

>  It's also an example of a way 
> the open internet order could be completely circumvented.get your 
> transit provider to do your traffic shaping.  They're not an ISP so they 
> don't count.
  That's still a better end result than having the last mile ISP messing with 
your packets. At least this way you know that if you manage to get your packets 
onto the ISP's network then they won't f*** with them. 

  It's also quite unlikely that ISPs would collude with transit providers to 
have them do their traffic shaping. The incentives simply don't align. Far 
likelier is that the ISP would simply let their transits run hot to create 
congestion. 

  Peering policies have their own problems, but that's a different kettle of 
fish. It's no secret that if network neutrality gets sorted out, some of the 
problems will move to interconnection issues. 


> Can you point out the straw man?
  Oh, there are so many. Here's a random selection:
  - people want more competition. Network neutrality doesn't bring about more 
competition, so don't demand network neutrality. 
  - low value content will destroy the internet, don't demand network neutrality
  - all bits are equal is a dangerous idea, don't demand network neutrality
  - the Internet will cave in without SLAs on interconnects, don't demand 
network neutrality 
  - two sided markets will magically solve everything. Ignore termination 
monopolies, significant market power and don't demand network neutrality 
  - no ISP will ever do anything anti-competitive, that's a crazy idea, don't 
demand network neutrality 
  - networks are expensive, thus network neutrality should not be imposed

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

One of my biggest problems with the whole NN thing, is the fact that all
the reasons people list for needing it aren't things that have ever really
happened (or they were resolved one way or another without NN). It seems to
me the best thing to do is get rid of the (apparently) pointless
regulations and if real problems do show up, put some rules in place that
specifically fix those problems.

The most common argument seems to be things like Netflix will get blocked
unless you pay extra - but the fact is, no major ISP is going to do that
unless they're suicidal. Even if they're in an area where they currently
have a de-facto monopoly, if they start pulling stuff like that, that's
going to be a huge opportunity for competition to come in.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

>
>
> https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html
>>>
>>
>> Nah, it falls down on its face pretty hard.
>>
>> Dan basically posits that it's all the fault of transit providers,
>> completely ignoring the fact that the transit market is a competitive
>> market whereas last mile providers have a termination monopoly. That's just
>> silly.
>>
>> The article is also so full of straw men, it's almost like Dan is
>> stocking up for a Guy Fawkes festival.
>>
>> Jared
>>
>
> He points out that the public debate is entirely about ideology.  Nobody
> has real data, or those who have real data don't share it.  I don't see
> where he's blaming transit providers for anything.  The transit provider
> was an example of a technical point that most of the public is unaware of,
> but which complicates the discussion.  It's also an example of a way the
> open internet order could be completely circumvented.get your transit
> provider to do your traffic shaping.  They're not an ISP so they don't
> count.
>
> Can you point out the straw man?
>
> I consider myself neutral on this topic.  I'm willing to consider
> arguments, but my problem is that nobody has coherent arguments.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Both actually.  Keeps the PBX from placing a call at the exact same time the 
central office is sending a call.  (glare).
PBX grounds the ring side of the line to indicate it wants dial tone.
The central office reciprocates by a ground on the tip side of the line.  The 
PBX then goes off hook and everybody lifts their grounds.

In reverse the C.O. grounds before ringing the line.   Just a layer of 
handshake protocol to prevent glare.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:22 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

I've probably got that wrong, I think the PBX was expecting a pin to get 
grounded and since that didn't happen it would never pick up.  In any case, I'm 
pretty sure it would ring but you couldn't answer it.

-- Original Message --
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/27/2017 2:19:02 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

  When I plugged loop start lines into a ground start PBX they couldn't answer 
the phones.  I may not be remembering this right, but I think they did ring.  I 
think the PBX would try to ground the line when you picked up a handset, and 
that resulted in a hangup on the ATA.  

  That's also the incident which introduced me to the Adtran Total Access.  It 
was the first ATA I found which supported ground start, and I've been very 
happy with that product.

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/27/2017 11:47:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Any chance of a ground start vs loop start issue?  Some PBXs were ground 
start.  Not sure how that would affect caller ID.  
Is the PBX actually detecting the ringing?

From: Nate Burke 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID works 
perfect on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the Lucent PBX.  
The customer still swears it worked with his old AT lines, but seems resigned 
to the fact that he won't have caller ID Anymore.  I tried to sell him into a 
new PBX, but he "Has a truckload of spare parts for this PBX"  

On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

  Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to hear.
  Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a long 
time.

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Lewis Bergman" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening on a 
butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you wouldn't see or 
hear it. The only reason I remembered between first and second is sitting at a 
class 5 switch trying to figure out why caller ID was failing on a feature 
group D trunk group and seeing them come through after one ringy dingy.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make it 
through 2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's audible, but so short 
you don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.

  I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about POTS 
anymore.

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Lewis Bergman" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this about 
the original question: 
Caller-ID Signaling
According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as 
early as 300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least 475 mS before the 
second ring burst

From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett  
wrote:

  I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just 
thought it
  was a noise you wouldn't ignore.

  That's a fun fact to have.

  -- Original Message --
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

  >Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same 
modulation
  >method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on the TV
  >before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
  >
  >I think it comes before the first ring or right after the first 
ring.
  >Some of the original display units rectified and stored ring 
voltage
  >for power so it may need the ring first to power the display box

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

I've probably got that wrong, I think the PBX was expecting a pin to get 
grounded and since that didn't happen it would never pick up.  In any 
case, I'm pretty sure it would ring but you couldn't answer it.

-- Original Message --
From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/27/2017 2:19:02 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

When I plugged loop start lines into a ground start PBX they couldn't 
answer the phones.  I may not be remembering this right, but I think 
they did ring.  I think the PBX would try to ground the line when you 
picked up a handset, and that resulted in a hangup on the ATA.

That's also the incident which introduced me to the Adtran Total 
Access.  It was the first ATA I found which supported ground start, and 
I've been very happy with that product.

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/27/2017 11:47:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Any chance of a ground start vs loop start issue?  Some PBXs were 
ground start.  Not sure how that would affect caller ID.

Is the PBX actually detecting the ringing?

From:Nate Burke
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:34 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID 
works perfect on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the 
Lucent PBX.  The customer still swears it worked with his old AT 
lines, but seems resigned to the fact that he won't have caller ID 
Anymore.  I tried to sell him into a new PBX, but he "Has a truckload 
of spare parts for this PBX"

On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to 
hear.
Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a 
long time.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening 
on a butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you 
wouldn't see or hear it. The only reason I remembered between first 
and second is sitting at a class 5 switch trying to figure out why 
caller ID was failing on a feature group D trunk group and seeing 
them come through after one ringy dingy.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett  
wrote:
Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make it 
through 2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's audible, 
but so short you don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.

I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about 
POTS anymore.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this about 
the original question:

Caller-ID Signaling
According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as 
early as 300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least 475 
mS before the second ring burst

From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett  
wrote:
I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just 
thought it

was a noise you wouldn't ignore.

That's a fun fact to have.

-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

>Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same 
modulation
>method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on the 
TV

>before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
>
>I think it comes before the first ring or right after the first 
ring.
>Some of the original display units rectified and stored ring 
voltage
>for power so it may need the ring first to power the display box 
then

>the data.
>
>In any event, you can hear it if you have a butt sett with line 
monitor

>mode.
>Bell 202 is correct.
>
>-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
>Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 1:58 PM
>To: Animal Farm
>Subject: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>
>At a customer, I just hooked up a Cisco SPA122 into an Ancient 
Lucent
>PBX system.  The customer says that caller ID is not coming 
through,

>but
>it used to work with his old AT Lines, and it appears to be 
hitting
>the ATA Properly.   Is there a setting on the ATA that needs to 
be set

>that older systems may be looking for?
>
>The only settings I see for Caller ID in the ATA are Caller ID 
Method,
>currently set to 'Bellcore(N.Amer,China)' and Caller ID FSK 
Standard,
>set to 'Bell 202'  I've never had to mess with those settings 
before.

>
>Nate

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

When I plugged loop start lines into a ground start PBX they couldn't 
answer the phones.  I may not be remembering this right, but I think 
they did ring.  I think the PBX would try to ground the line when you 
picked up a handset, and that resulted in a hangup on the ATA.

That's also the incident which introduced me to the Adtran Total Access. 
 It was the first ATA I found which supported ground start, and I've 
been very happy with that product.

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/27/2017 11:47:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Any chance of a ground start vs loop start issue?  Some PBXs were 
ground start.  Not sure how that would affect caller ID.

Is the PBX actually detecting the ringing?

From:Nate Burke
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:34 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID works 
perfect on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the Lucent 
PBX.  The customer still swears it worked with his old AT lines, but 
seems resigned to the fact that he won't have caller ID Anymore.  I 
tried to sell him into a new PBX, but he "Has a truckload of spare 
parts for this PBX"

On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to 
hear.
Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a 
long time.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening on 
a butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you 
wouldn't see or hear it. The only reason I remembered between first 
and second is sitting at a class 5 switch trying to figure out why 
caller ID was failing on a feature group D trunk group and seeing 
them come through after one ringy dingy.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett  
wrote:
Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make it 
through 2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's audible, 
but so short you don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.

I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about POTS 
anymore.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this about 
the original question:

Caller-ID Signaling
According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as 
early as 300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least 475 mS 
before the second ring burst

From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett  
wrote:
I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just thought 
it

was a noise you wouldn't ignore.

That's a fun fact to have.

-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

>Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same 
modulation

>method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on the TV
>before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
>
>I think it comes before the first ring or right after the first 
ring.
>Some of the original display units rectified and stored ring 
voltage
>for power so it may need the ring first to power the display box 
then

>the data.
>
>In any event, you can hear it if you have a butt sett with line 
monitor

>mode.
>Bell 202 is correct.
>
>-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
>Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 1:58 PM
>To: Animal Farm
>Subject: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>
>At a customer, I just hooked up a Cisco SPA122 into an Ancient 
Lucent
>PBX system.  The customer says that caller ID is not coming 
through,

>but
>it used to work with his old AT Lines, and it appears to be 
hitting
>the ATA Properly.   Is there a setting on the ATA that needs to 
be set

>that older systems may be looking for?
>
>The only settings I see for Caller ID in the ATA are Caller ID 
Method,
>currently set to 'Bellcore(N.Amer,China)' and Caller ID FSK 
Standard,
>set to 'Bell 202'  I've never had to mess with those settings 
before.

>
>Nate

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read





https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html


Nah, it falls down on its face pretty hard.

Dan basically posits that it's all the fault of transit providers, 
completely ignoring the fact that the transit market is a competitive 
market whereas last mile providers have a termination monopoly. That's 
just silly.


The article is also so full of straw men, it's almost like Dan is 
stocking up for a Guy Fawkes festival.


Jared


He points out that the public debate is entirely about ideology.  Nobody 
has real data, or those who have real data don't share it.  I don't see 
where he's blaming transit providers for anything.  The transit provider 
was an example of a technical point that most of the public is unaware 
of, but which complicates the discussion.  It's also an example of a way 
the open internet order could be completely circumvented.get your 
transit provider to do your traffic shaping.  They're not an ISP so they 
don't count.


Can you point out the straw man?

I consider myself neutral on this topic.  I'm willing to consider 
arguments, but my problem is that nobody has coherent arguments.

Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

2017-11-27 Thread Gino A. Villarini

Shouldn’t be a problem, power issues are mostly  in rural areas

From: Af > on behalf of Lewis 
Bergman >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2017 at 3:09 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

San Juan

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:24 AM Gino A. Villarini 
> wrote:
Where was the conference scheduled to be held? Cruises are coming in…

From: Af > on behalf of Lewis 
Bergman >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2017 at 9:23 AM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

I was trying to convince a conference that was slated for PR in February to 
keep that location but they opted for San Diego instead. IS PR ready for that 
kind of tourism yet?

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:19 AM Gino A. Villarini 
> wrote:
Hey Chuck and the rest of the AF gang,

Im happy to report that after 67 days after the hurricane, our network is 85+% 
up.  About 70% of that 80% is running on either generator or solar, as power 
has been slow to bring online, specially in rural areas.

I would say that more that 65% of our customers are online, most of the ones 
offline are without power or are pending a service call.  In the last 67 days 
we have completed over 1400 service calls and 428 installs!

Yes, Maria also brought a huge wave of new opportunities as the local fiber and 
DOCSIS providers have been slow to recover.  We still have over 500 installs 
pending on the queue… I guess that’s a good problem to have! Specially were 
lots of those opportunities are in the high margin, big profile enterprise 
services 50-500 mbps!

We have learn from this experience  and we still  have lots of work ahead of us 
for the next year as we are redesigning our network to make it more resilient 
to hurricanes!

Punching along! Keep them coming!

From: Af > on behalf of Chuck 
McCown >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Friday, November 24, 2017 at 5:30 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

Been a while since we heard from PR.  Are you getting things put back together?
Got power at most of your sites yet?

Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

San Juan

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:24 AM Gino A. Villarini  wrote:

> Where was the conference scheduled to be held? Cruises are coming in…
>
> From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Date: Monday, November 27, 2017 at 9:23 AM
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?
>
> I was trying to convince a conference that was slated for PR in February
> to keep that location but they opted for San Diego instead. IS PR ready for
> that kind of tourism yet?
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:19 AM Gino A. Villarini 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Chuck and the rest of the AF gang,
>>
>> Im happy to report that after 67 days after the hurricane, our network is
>> 85+% up.  About 70% of that 80% is running on either generator or solar, as
>> power has been slow to bring online, specially in rural areas.
>>
>> I would say that more that 65% of our customers are online, most of the
>> ones offline are without power or are pending a service call.  In the last
>> 67 days we have completed over 1400 service calls and 428 installs!
>>
>> Yes, Maria also brought a huge wave of new opportunities as the local
>> fiber and DOCSIS providers have been slow to recover.  We still have over
>> 500 installs pending on the queue… I guess that’s a good problem to have!
>> Specially were lots of those opportunities are in the high margin, big
>> profile enterprise services 50-500 mbps!
>>
>> We have learn from this experience  and we still  have lots of work ahead
>> of us for the next year as we are redesigning our network to make it more
>> resilient to hurricanes!
>>
>> Punching along! Keep them coming!
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Af  on behalf of Chuck McCown <
>> ch...@wbmfg.com>
>> Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Date: Friday, November 24, 2017 at 5:30 PM
>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?
>>
>> Been a while since we heard from PR.  Are you getting things put back
>> together?
>> Got power at most of your sites yet?
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

This is probably way off but is there any chance he had more than one line
and the one you are now working with doesn't have callerID? When you say
"When he had AT" does that mean you ported the lines to some other
provider? If so, is callerID enabled on the new line(s)?

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:04 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

> The phones on the PBX ring/talk/terminate normally.  Just no Caller ID.
> There is no Voicemail on the PBX, he has a answering machine plugged into
> the phone splitter, it yells out the Caller ID number when a call comes in,
> so that's working.  This is a small engine repair shop, proprietor has to
> be in his 70's, goes through about 4 packs of smokes a day while hunched
> over a tank full of gas.  I think the PBX was probably installed when he
> first opened his shop, however many decades ago that was.
>
> On 11/27/2017 10:47 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>
> Any chance of a ground start vs loop start issue?  Some PBXs were ground
> start.  Not sure how that would affect caller ID.
> Is the PBX actually detecting the ringing?
>
> *From:* Nate Burke
> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 9:34 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>
> Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID works
> perfect on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the Lucent
> PBX.  The customer still swears it worked with his old AT lines, but
> seems resigned to the fact that he won't have caller ID Anymore.  I tried
> to sell him into a new PBX, but he "Has a truckload of spare parts for this
> PBX"
>
> On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to hear.
> Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a long
> time.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lewis Bergman" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>
>
> Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening on a
> butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you wouldn't
> see or hear it. The only reason I remembered between first and second is
> sitting at a class 5 switch trying to figure out why caller ID was failing
> on a feature group D trunk group and seeing them come through after one
> ringy dingy.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make it through
>> 2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's audible, but so short you
>> don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.
>>
>> I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about POTS
>> anymore.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Lewis Bergman" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>>
>>
>> More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this about the
>> original question:
>> Caller-ID Signaling
>>
>> According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as early as
>> 300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least 475 mS before the
>> second ring burst
>>
>> From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>
>> I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just thought it
>>> was a noise you wouldn't ignore.
>>>
>>> That's a fun fact to have.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>>>
>>> >Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same modulation
>>> >method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on the TV
>>> >before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
>>> >
>>> >I think it comes before the first ring or right after the first ring.
>>> >Some of the original display units rectified and stored ring voltage
>>> >for power so it may need the ring first to power the display box then
>>> >the data.
>>> >
>>> >In any event, you can hear it if you have a butt sett with line monitor
>>> >mode.
>>> >Bell 202 is correct.
>>> >
>>> >-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
>>> >Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 1:58 PM
>>> >To: Animal Farm
>>> >Subject: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>>> >
>>> >At a customer, I just hooked up a Cisco SPA122 into an Ancient Lucent
>>> >PBX system.  The customer says that caller ID is not coming through,
>>> >but
>>> >it used to work with his old AT Lines, and it appears to be hitting
>>> >the ATA Properly.   Is there a setting on the ATA that needs to be set
>>> >that older systems may be looking for?
>>> >
>>> >The only settings I see for Caller ID in the ATA are Caller ID Method,
>>> >currently set to 'Bellcore(N.Amer,China)' and Caller ID FSK Standard,
>>> >set to 'Bell 202'  I've never had to mess with those settings before.
>>> >

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

2017-11-27 Thread fiberrun

> https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html

Nah, it falls down on its face pretty hard. 

Dan basically posits that it's all the fault of transit providers, completely 
ignoring the fact that the transit market is a competitive market whereas last 
mile providers have a termination monopoly. That's just silly. 

The article is also so full of straw men, it's almost like Dan is stocking up 
for a Guy Fawkes festival. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read


This highlights something I've been complaining about.

I found the open internet order to be mostly harmless, possibly 
pointless.  I'm neutral on whether it stays or goes.  Literally 
*Everyone* I've heard talking about it on both sides is presenting an 
argument that is not based on any facts.  Literally all arguments don't 
hold up to basic scrutiny.


Most Pro neutrality people argue that the internet will be destroyed 
without net neutrality rules, and offer no evidence that this will 
happen.  A handful have lists of bad behaviors that ISP's have engaged 
in, such as Madison River blocking competing VoIP services, but for the 
most part they're listing activities that the offender was punished for 
without any Net Neutrality rules in place.


The other camp basically says rules are bad because rules are bad.  They 
also offer no compelling evidence.



-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/27/2017 10:38:37 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read


https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP

[AFMUG] Tower Climber Insurance premium went 25k up for one guy.

2017-11-27 Thread Sam Lambie

What/Who do you guys use for tower climbers and workmans comp to cover them
in case of an accident?
Sam

-- 
-- 
*Sam Lambie*
Taosnet Wireless Tech.
575-758-7598 Office
www.Taosnet.com

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

The phones on the PBX ring/talk/terminate normally.  Just no Caller ID.  
There is no Voicemail on the PBX, he has a answering machine plugged 
into the phone splitter, it yells out the Caller ID number when a call 
comes in, so that's working.  This is a small engine repair shop, 
proprietor has to be in his 70's, goes through about 4 packs of smokes a 
day while hunched over a tank full of gas.  I think the PBX was probably 
installed when he first opened his shop, however many decades ago that was.

On 11/27/2017 10:47 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Any chance of a ground start vs loop start issue?  Some PBXs were 
ground start.  Not sure how that would affect caller ID.

Is the PBX actually detecting the ringing?
*From:* Nate Burke
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 9:34 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID 
works perfect on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the 
Lucent PBX.  The customer still swears it worked with his old AT 
lines, but seems resigned to the fact that he won't have caller ID 
Anymore.  I tried to sell him into a new PBX, but he "Has a truckload 
of spare parts for this PBX"

On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to hear.
Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a 
long time.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening 
on a butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you 
wouldn't see or hear it. The only reason I remembered between first 
and second is sitting at a class 5 switch trying to figure out why 
caller ID was failing on a feature group D trunk group and seeing 
them come through after one ringy dingy.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make
it through 2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's
audible, but so short you don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.
I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about
POTS anymore.
-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this
about the original question:

Caller-ID Signaling

According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as
early as 300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least
475 mS before the second ring burst

From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett
 wrote:

I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just
thought it
was a noise you wouldn't ignore.

That's a fun fact to have.

-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

>Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same
modulation
>method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on
the TV
>before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
>
>I think it comes before the first ring or right after the
first ring.
>Some of the original display units rectified and stored
ring voltage
>for power so it may need the ring first to power the
display box then
>the data.
>
>In any event, you can hear it if you have a butt sett with
line monitor
>mode.
>Bell 202 is correct.
>
>-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
>Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 1:58 PM
>To: Animal Farm
>Subject: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>
>At a customer, I just hooked up a Cisco SPA122 into an
Ancient Lucent
>PBX system.  The customer says that caller ID is not
coming through,
>but
>it used to work with his old AT Lines, and it appears to
be hitting
>the ATA Properly.   Is there a setting on the ATA that
needs to be set
>that older systems may be looking for?
>
>The only settings I see for Caller ID in the ATA are
Caller ID Method,
>currently set to 'Bellcore(N.Amer,China)' and Caller ID
FSK Standard,
>set to 'Bell 202'  I've never had to mess with those
settings before.
>
>Nate

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Any chance of a ground start vs loop start issue?  Some PBXs were ground start. 
 Not sure how that would affect caller ID.  
Is the PBX actually detecting the ringing?

From: Nate Burke 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID works perfect 
on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the Lucent PBX.  The 
customer still swears it worked with his old AT lines, but seems resigned to 
the fact that he won't have caller ID Anymore.  I tried to sell him into a new 
PBX, but he "Has a truckload of spare parts for this PBX"  

On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

  Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to hear.
  Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a long time.

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Lewis Bergman" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening on a 
butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you wouldn't see or 
hear it. The only reason I remembered between first and second is sitting at a 
class 5 switch trying to figure out why caller ID was failing on a feature 
group D trunk group and seeing them come through after one ringy dingy.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make it through 
2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's audible, but so short you 
don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.

  I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about POTS 
anymore.

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Lewis Bergman" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this about the 
original question: 
Caller-ID Signaling
According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as early as 
300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least 475 mS before the second 
ring burst

From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just thought it
  was a noise you wouldn't ignore.

  That's a fun fact to have.

  -- Original Message --
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

  >Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same modulation
  >method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on the TV
  >before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
  >
  >I think it comes before the first ring or right after the first ring.
  >Some of the original display units rectified and stored ring voltage
  >for power so it may need the ring first to power the display box then
  >the data.
  >
  >In any event, you can hear it if you have a butt sett with line 
monitor
  >mode.
  >Bell 202 is correct.
  >
  >-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
  >Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 1:58 PM
  >To: Animal Farm
  >Subject: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
  >
  >At a customer, I just hooked up a Cisco SPA122 into an Ancient Lucent
  >PBX system.  The customer says that caller ID is not coming through,
  >but
  >it used to work with his old AT Lines, and it appears to be hitting
  >the ATA Properly.   Is there a setting on the ATA that needs to be 
set
  >that older systems may be looking for?
  >
  >The only settings I see for Caller ID in the ATA are Caller ID 
Method,
  >currently set to 'Bellcore(N.Amer,China)' and Caller ID FSK Standard,
  >set to 'Bell 202'  I've never had to mess with those settings before.
  >
  >Nate

Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Just an Update, I put a splitter in the phone line, and caller ID works 
perfect on any 'modern' handset.  But still does not work on the Lucent 
PBX.  The customer still swears it worked with his old AT lines, but 
seems resigned to the fact that he won't have caller ID Anymore.  I 
tried to sell him into a new PBX, but he "Has a truckload of spare parts 
for this PBX"

On 11/9/2017 3:53 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

Oh rightI haven't picked up the phone yet so there's nothing to hear.
Sorry.  I haven't actually used one of these telephone thingys in a 
long time.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" >

To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:52:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

Remember, the signal comes between rings. Unless you are listening on 
a butt set in line or watching the info pass through a switch you 
wouldn't see or hear it. The only reason I remembered between first 
and second is sitting at a class 5 switch trying to figure out why 
caller ID was failing on a feature group D trunk group and seeing 
them come through after one ringy dingy.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:46 PM Adam Moffett > wrote:

Is it at an inaudible frequency?  If so, then it wouldn't make it
through 2600hz bandpass filters would it?  Or maybe it's audible,
but so short you don't notice it? I'm fuzzy on this.

I probably shouldn't ask.  I don't need to know that much about
POTS anymore.

-- Original Message --
From: "Lewis Bergman" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 11/9/2017 4:40:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

More info than anyone probably wants to know. I found this about
the original question:

Caller-ID Signaling

According to Telcordia specifications, CND signaling starts as
early as 300 mS after the first ring burst and ends at least 475
mS before the second ring burst

From here: http://www.tech-faq.com/caller-id.html

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:29 PM Adam Moffett > wrote:

I did not know that tone contained modulated data.  I just
thought it
was a noise you wouldn't ignore.

That's a fun fact to have.

-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 11/7/2017 4:39:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question

>Monitor the line for the data burst.  It is the exact same
modulation
>method as the emergency alert system you hear squawking on
the TV
>before the beep and thunderstorm warning.
>
>I think it comes before the first ring or right after the
first ring.
>Some of the original display units rectified and stored
ring voltage
>for power so it may need the ring first to power the
display box then
>the data.
>
>In any event, you can hear it if you have a butt sett with
line monitor
>mode.
>Bell 202 is correct.
>
>-Original Message- From: Nate Burke
>Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 1:58 PM
>To: Animal Farm
>Subject: [AFMUG] ATA CallerID question
>
>At a customer, I just hooked up a Cisco SPA122 into an
Ancient Lucent
>PBX system.  The customer says that caller ID is not coming
through,
>but
>it used to work with his old AT Lines, and it appears to
be hitting
>the ATA Properly.   Is there a setting on the ATA that
needs to be set
>that older systems may be looking for?
>
>The only settings I see for Caller ID in the ATA are Caller
ID Method,
>currently set to 'Bellcore(N.Amer,China)' and Caller ID FSK
Standard,
>set to 'Bell 202'  I've never had to mess with those
settings before.
>
>Nate

I looked up the original article which had other humorous statements
such as, "A 31-year-old man was arrested following a chase when a
trooper spotted a Tesla and started to follow. The chase was short
lived, Keller said, as the battery in the allegedly stolen vehicle died."

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/11/24/four-stolen-teslas-recovered-friday-in-apparent-coordinated-theft-from-utah-dealership/

Chuck McCown wrote:
Better yet, drive up under the second story you are waiting to jump
from when you whistle. Of course it will have to be a convertible.

*From:* Nate Burke
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 9:02 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Can't they just drive themselves back to the dealer?

On 11/27/2017 9:52 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually
have two people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member
died and left them these cars.”Keller said.

--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Virus-free. www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

Better yet, drive up under the second story you are waiting to jump from when 
you whistle.  Of course it will have to be a convertible.  

From: Nate Burke 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:02 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

Can't they just drive themselves back to the dealer?

On 11/27/2017 9:52 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

  I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.  

  From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
  To: af 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

  Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal? 

  I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...

  On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.

Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:

We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have two 
people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left them 
these cars.” Keller said.

  -- 

Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts


Can't they just drive themselves back to the dealer?

On 11/27/2017 9:52 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:

I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
*To:* af
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts
Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually
have two people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member
died and left them these cars.”Keller said.



--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

I am sure they can phone home and be remotely disabled.  

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 1:28 AM
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal? 

I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.

  Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:

  We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have two 
people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left them 
these cars.” Keller said.

-- 

  Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

  Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
  forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

[AFMUG] Best NN Article I've Read

https://blog.streamingmedia.com/2017/11/net-neutrality-is-a-sham.html 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

2017-11-27 Thread George Skorup


I would also recommend R3.5. I've had significantly less issues with that.

On 11/27/2017 9:22 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
Tried from a different machine (that I have never
accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.

Thanks.

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

2017-11-27 Thread Larry Smith

Well darn, that appears to have been the issue.
Tried from a different machine (that I have never
accessed this radio from) and it worked fine.

Thanks.

-- 
Larry Smith
lesm...@ecsis.net

On Mon November 27 2017 09:17, Nate Burke wrote:
> Does it happen with multiple machines/browsers?  Maybe some stuck cache
> somewhere?
>
> On 11/27/2017 9:14 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
> > Ok, have an ePMP 1000, updated from 3.1 to 3.3
> > then to 3.4 and problem persists.
> >
> > Issue is each time you login into the radio and go
> > to configuration, network, a read triangle pops up
> > on the right side of the network line and the save
> > button reds out.  Holding the mouse over the save
> > button says "Invalid elements:  Password".
> >
> > Have changed all passwords (under Configuration, System)
> > and can find no passwords on the Network tab.
> >
> > Anyone else seen this or can direct me where to fix it?

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

Same thought here as Nate.  Really sounds like a cache issue (which is a
heavy problem in 3.3 and 3.4 IME).


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Nate Burke  wrote:

> Does it happen with multiple machines/browsers?  Maybe some stuck cache
> somewhere?
>
>
> On 11/27/2017 9:14 AM, Larry Smith wrote:
>
>> Ok, have an ePMP 1000, updated from 3.1 to 3.3
>> then to 3.4 and problem persists.
>>
>> Issue is each time you login into the radio and go
>> to configuration, network, a read triangle pops up
>> on the right side of the network line and the save
>> button reds out.  Holding the mouse over the save
>> button says "Invalid elements:  Password".
>>
>> Have changed all passwords (under Configuration, System)
>> and can find no passwords on the Network tab.
>>
>> Anyone else seen this or can direct me where to fix it?
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Tesla Thefts

No more than any other high end make?  Rip out the GPS antenna and you're
set.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> Aren't teslas one of the more stupid vehicles to try to steal?
>
> I found the article about the theft, and I agree... odd...
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> In SLC, someone broke into the showroom and made off with 4 Teslas.
>>
>> Here is an snip from a newspaper story quoting cops about the theft:
>>
>> We are still trying to sort this out,” Keller said. “We actually have two
>> people claiming their name is Tesla and a family member died and left them
>> these cars.” Keller said.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> 
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
>   
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

Does it happen with multiple machines/browsers?  Maybe some stuck cache 
somewhere?


On 11/27/2017 9:14 AM, Larry Smith wrote:

Ok, have an ePMP 1000, updated from 3.1 to 3.3
then to 3.4 and problem persists.

Issue is each time you login into the radio and go
to configuration, network, a read triangle pops up
on the right side of the network line and the save
button reds out.  Holding the mouse over the save
button says "Invalid elements:  Password".

Have changed all passwords (under Configuration, System)
and can find no passwords on the Network tab.

Anyone else seen this or can direct me where to fix it?

[AFMUG] ePMP puzzle

2017-11-27 Thread Larry Smith

Ok, have an ePMP 1000, updated from 3.1 to 3.3
then to 3.4 and problem persists.

Issue is each time you login into the radio and go
to configuration, network, a read triangle pops up
on the right side of the network line and the save
button reds out.  Holding the mouse over the save
button says "Invalid elements:  Password".

Have changed all passwords (under Configuration, System)
and can find no passwords on the Network tab.

Anyone else seen this or can direct me where to fix it?

-- 
Larry Smith
lesm...@ecsis.net

Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

2017-11-27 Thread Gino A. Villarini

Where was the conference scheduled to be held? Cruises are coming in…

From: Af > on behalf of Lewis 
Bergman >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2017 at 9:23 AM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

I was trying to convince a conference that was slated for PR in February to 
keep that location but they opted for San Diego instead. IS PR ready for that 
kind of tourism yet?

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:19 AM Gino A. Villarini 
> wrote:
Hey Chuck and the rest of the AF gang,

Im happy to report that after 67 days after the hurricane, our network is 85+% 
up.  About 70% of that 80% is running on either generator or solar, as power 
has been slow to bring online, specially in rural areas.

I would say that more that 65% of our customers are online, most of the ones 
offline are without power or are pending a service call.  In the last 67 days 
we have completed over 1400 service calls and 428 installs!

Yes, Maria also brought a huge wave of new opportunities as the local fiber and 
DOCSIS providers have been slow to recover.  We still have over 500 installs 
pending on the queue… I guess that’s a good problem to have! Specially were 
lots of those opportunities are in the high margin, big profile enterprise 
services 50-500 mbps!

We have learn from this experience  and we still  have lots of work ahead of us 
for the next year as we are redesigning our network to make it more resilient 
to hurricanes!

Punching along! Keep them coming!

From: Af > on behalf of Chuck 
McCown >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Friday, November 24, 2017 at 5:30 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?

Been a while since we heard from PR.  Are you getting things put back together?
Got power at most of your sites yet?

Re: [AFMUG] CQ Gino - How are you doing?