Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Josh Reynolds]

If you're looking to do a few houses per mile, it's very likely that fiber
doesn't make sense at all.

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 9:24 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I'm looking at rural areas (like a few houses per mile).  As I'm looking
> at hypothetical power budgets for PON, I'm finding that if I run the line
> down the road and put splitters on the pole I can split 5-6 times and then
> I'm getting too low on db to keep going down the road.  At 5 or so houses
> per port, a 1U, 8 port ONT is no denser than a 1U switch.
>
> Your stated reasons for PON are all correct.  The numbers just aren't
> seeming to work out for me.
>
> I also figure if I install enough fibers for AE, I can still switch to PON
> some day if I want to.
>
> We would never max out the PON port, but looking back on the past 15 years
> of growth in consumption I wonder if I should ever say "never". In AE I can
> put 100Gig in every house if I have to.  I'll "never" have to do that as
> far as I can imagine, but my imagination could be limited.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Josh Reynolds" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 2/11/2018 9:28:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> A few reasons...
>
> Port cost is still fairly high.
>
> More splicing.
>
> More fiber required.
>
> Larger chassis required.
>
> More power required.
>
> More battery backup required.
>
> Consumers not even close to using up 1-2 generations back of PON capacity
> in most places.
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> So, why do PON and not active in these super cheap optics days?
>>
>> *From:* Chuck Hogg
>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:10 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>>
>> We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's product with
>> Zhone is different.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chuck
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it was DASAN
>>> that rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I don't remember
>>> which.  ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Jason McKemie" 
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
>>> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>>>
>>> In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be
>>> anywhere near within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions?
>>>
>>> I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
>>> http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116
>>>
>>> It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them:
>>> http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf
>>>
>>> -Jason
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[George Skorup]

+1hunnit. AE for very low density makes sense. The same argument can be 
made for wireless. If you have one house on a 1 mile road, does it even 
make sense to do fiber for that one customer? And then multiply that by 
something like 5 or even 10 miles. Bring fiber to a customer and shoot a 
PTP to the house at the end of the road? Or give the customer the option 
to pay for their extra long drop?


PON makes sense when you want all (or most) of the PON features for 
things like single pane of glass monitoring and such. OTOH, there's no 
reason you can't do AE on something like a Calix shelf and get most of 
that stuff.


On 2/11/2018 9:24 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
I'm looking at rural areas (like a few houses per mile).  As I'm 
looking at hypothetical power budgets for PON, I'm finding that if I 
run the line down the road and put splitters on the pole I can split 
5-6 times and then I'm getting too low on db to keep going down the 
road.  At 5 or so houses per port, a 1U, 8 port ONT is no denser than 
a 1U switch.


Your stated reasons for PON are all correct.  The numbers just aren't 
seeming to work out for me.


I also figure if I install enough fibers for AE, I can still switch to 
PON some day if I want to.


We would never max out the PON port, but looking back on the past 15 
years of growth in consumption I wonder if I should ever say "never". 
In AE I can put 100Gig in every house if I have to.  I'll "never" have 
to do that as far as I can imagine, but my imagination could be limited.


-Adam


-- Original Message --
From: "Josh Reynolds" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/11/2018 9:28:34 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


A few reasons...

Port cost is still fairly high.

More splicing.

More fiber required.

Larger chassis required.

More power required.

More battery backup required.

Consumers not even close to using up 1-2 generations back of PON 
capacity in most places.


On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Chuck McCown > wrote:


So, why do PON and not active in these super cheap optics days?
*From:* Chuck Hogg
*Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:10 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's
product with Zhone is different.
Regards,
Chuck
On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett 
wrote:

I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it
was DASAN that rescued them from the one they walked far away
form. I don't remember which.  ;-)



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Jason McKemie" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to
be anywhere near within budget, does anyone else have any
other suggestions?
I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116

It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard
of them:
http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf

-Jason

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Adam Moffett]

Basically with Viva you're clearing $3/month as a reseller.  The 
customer is theirs; they do billing and support.  No local channels 
unless you're in NYC.


Real Choice TV is earning you more like $10/month, and the customer is 
yours; you do billing and support.  You're also not tied to their MSRP 
price since you're doing billing.  If your local market can bear an 
additional $5/month for a given package then you can make $15 instead of 
$10 (as an example).  If I feel their $99 MSRP plan is worth $119 in my 
area then I could make $30/month on that.  You DO get your local 
channels.  You can white label it for an additional one time fee.


Viva has NO barrier to entry.  You email the address on their website 
and they'll have you set up same day.


Real Choice has a significant cost barrier to entry.  It's not 
ridiculous, but you do have to pay something for setup, buy a server 
from them, and you have to peer with their network.


I think if you can afford to get in with Real Choice then you have a 
better product and you will make more money on it.



-- Original Message --
From: "Al Rachide" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/11/2018 7:29:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

Looking at OTTV on TDAmeritrade, it does not look like it will survive 
financially. Is there something there that I am missing? The idea 
sounds great for our area, especially the Latino side of the equation. 
Does OTTV have a WISP re-seller plan? If so, how do we get info on 
that?


Thanks,
Al Rachide
Eastern Carolina Broadband



 
Virus-free. www.avast.com 


<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Adam Moffett]

I'm looking at rural areas (like a few houses per mile).  As I'm looking 
at hypothetical power budgets for PON, I'm finding that if I run the 
line down the road and put splitters on the pole I can split 5-6 times 
and then I'm getting too low on db to keep going down the road.  At 5 or 
so houses per port, a 1U, 8 port ONT is no denser than a 1U switch.


Your stated reasons for PON are all correct.  The numbers just aren't 
seeming to work out for me.


I also figure if I install enough fibers for AE, I can still switch to 
PON some day if I want to.


We would never max out the PON port, but looking back on the past 15 
years of growth in consumption I wonder if I should ever say "never". In 
AE I can put 100Gig in every house if I have to.  I'll "never" have to 
do that as far as I can imagine, but my imagination could be limited.


-Adam


-- Original Message --
From: "Josh Reynolds" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/11/2018 9:28:34 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


A few reasons...

Port cost is still fairly high.

More splicing.

More fiber required.

Larger chassis required.

More power required.

More battery backup required.

Consumers not even close to using up 1-2 generations back of PON 
capacity in most places.


On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

So, why do PON and not active in these super cheap optics days?

From:Chuck Hogg
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:10 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's product 
with Zhone is different.


Regards,
Chuck

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett  
wrote:
I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it was 
DASAN that rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I 
don't remember which.  ;-)




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "Jason McKemie" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be 
anywhere near within budget, does anyone else have any other 
suggestions?


I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116 



It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them:
http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf 



-Jason

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Adam Moffett]

Trango did.  They subbed out the coordination and licensing to Radyn, 
but I don't think they marked it up much.


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/11/2018 8:52:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

If I have been offered a package, I cannot remember it.  If I turned it 
down it was because I could save money by not taking the package.


So, if this exists, it exists.  Does SAF do this?  Last radios I put up 
were SAF.


From:Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

I am guessing you don't know this.. but every distributor that is 
selling license radios, offers a 'licensing coordination' package. In 
case of Mimosa, they actually have an arrangement with one of the 
coordinators to get the job done at a discounted rate.


So, what I am missing... ?

Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:24:07 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that 
perhaps you should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving 
along to your customers.  Radio, antenna, license – all in a package 
for one simple price.


Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street 
and buy tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas 
station for gas.  Ford may not be in the business of refining 
petroleum or making tires, but can certainly drive the car off the 
lot.  And in all cases in recent memory the dealership also does 
everything necessary for obtaining the license plate too.


From:Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

>>.I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy.

Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is 
Opinionated to the Nth degree without explanation or possible 
understanding of why they have such an opinion. and that is ok, as 
long as it is expressed in that context ...


As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person 
offering the opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound 
technical backing to support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss 
the "I love it" opinions, unless they are backed up to the reason why.


I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can 
please everyone . FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each 
for their strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of 
these products shine in the different ares of the three common 
requirement that everyone has.. Needs to be Good Quality, Fast 
Performance, and Cost Effective..


In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do 
a little bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. 
is, this is physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will 
greatly help you in  gaining  a better understanding of what is the 
difference one can expect between 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. 
for their deployment region.. (I agree with Steve, in regards to the 
missing context of rain zone, and I also agree with Mike H.. that Rain 
zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref  ).


I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License 
being high ? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes 
coordination etc... I would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit 
more on this...


:)

Happy Weekend.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



From: "Steve Jones" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad 
about the 5ghz stuff


On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Josh Reynolds]

A few reasons...

Port cost is still fairly high.

More splicing.

More fiber required.

Larger chassis required.

More power required.

More battery backup required.

Consumers not even close to using up 1-2 generations back of PON capacity
in most places.

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> So, why do PON and not active in these super cheap optics days?
>
> *From:* Chuck Hogg
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:10 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's product with
> Zhone is different.
>
> Regards,
> Chuck
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it was DASAN
>> that rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I don't remember
>> which.  ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Jason McKemie" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
>> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>>
>> In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be anywhere
>> near within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions?
>>
>> I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
>> http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116
>>
>> It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them:
>> http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf
>>
>> -Jason
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Rory Conaway]

I have the reseller information.

The DVR feature should be up.  I’ll check.

I’ll also post the information for WISPS to sign up through us tomorrow.

Why do you think they won’t survive?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Al Rachide
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:30 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

Looking at OTTV on TDAmeritrade, it does not look like it will survive 
financially. Is there something there that I am missing? The idea sounds great 
for our area, especially the Latino side of the equation. Does OTTV have a WISP 
re-seller plan? If so, how do we get info on that?
Thanks,
Al Rachide
Eastern Carolina Broadband


[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif]

Virus-free. 
www.avast.com

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck McCown]

So, why do PON and not active in these super cheap optics days?

From: Chuck Hogg 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's product with Zhone 
is different.

Regards,
Chuck

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

  I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it was DASAN that 
rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I don't remember which.  
;-)




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Jason McKemie" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
  Subject: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


  In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be anywhere 
near within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions? 

  I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
  http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116


  It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them:
  http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf


  -Jason

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Chuck McCown]

If I have been offered a package, I cannot remember it.  If I turned it down it 
was because I could save money by not taking the package.  

So, if this exists, it exists.  Does SAF do this?  Last radios I put up were 
SAF.  

From: Faisal Imtiaz 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

I am guessing you don't know this.. but every distributor that is selling 
license radios, offers a 'licensing coordination' package. In case of Mimosa, 
they actually have an arrangement with one of the coordinators to get the job 
done at a discounted rate.

So, what I am missing... ?

Regards. 

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net




  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:24:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

  If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that perhaps you 
should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving along to your customers.  
Radio, antenna, license – all in a package for one simple price. 

  Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street and buy 
tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas station for gas.  
Ford may not be in the business of refining petroleum or making tires, but can 
certainly drive the car off the lot.  And in all cases in recent memory the 
dealership also does everything necessary for obtaining the license plate too. 

  From: Faisal Imtiaz
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

  >>.I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. 

  Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated to 
the Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they have 
such an opinion. and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in that context 
...

  As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person offering 
the opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical backing to 
support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it" opinions, unless 
they are backed up to the reason why.

  I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please 
everyone . FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their 
strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products shine 
in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone has.. Needs 
to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective..

  In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a 
little bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is, this 
is physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help you in  
gaining  a better understanding of what is the difference one can expect 
between 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment region.. (I 
agree with Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain zone, and I also 
agree with Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref  ).

  I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License being 
high ? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination etc... I 
would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this...

  :)

  Happy Weekend.

  Faisal Imtiaz
  Snappy Internet & Telecom
  http://www.snappytelecom.net

  Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

  Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net


--

From: "Steve Jones" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad about 
the 5ghz stuff

On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

  Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Steve Jones" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz


  Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain 
region. Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells 
you 24 GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but 
some guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care 
about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher 
frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters. 
  

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Josh Reynolds]

Why are you walking away from Alphion? I'm curious because we had our own
issues.

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Chuck Hogg  wrote:

> We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's product with
> Zhone is different.
>
> Regards,
> Chuck
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it was DASAN
>> that rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I don't remember
>> which.  ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Jason McKemie" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
>> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>>
>> In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be anywhere
>> near within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions?
>>
>> I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
>> http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116
>>
>> It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them:
>> http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf
>>
>> -Jason
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck Hogg]

We are walking away from them and Alphion...I think Mark's product with
Zhone is different.

Regards,
Chuck

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN...  or maybe it was DASAN
> that rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I don't remember
> which.  ;-)
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Jason McKemie" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be anywhere
> near within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions?
>
> I found these guys, but have never heard of them:
> http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116
>
> It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them:
> http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf
>
> -Jason
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Faisal Imtiaz]

I am guessing you don't know this.. but every distributor that is selling 
license radios, offers a 'licensing coordination' package. In case of Mimosa, 
they actually have an arrangement with one of the coordinators to get the job 
done at a discounted rate. 

So, what I am missing... ? 

Regards. 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Chuck McCown" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:24:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

> If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that perhaps you
> should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving along to your customers.
> Radio, antenna, license – all in a package for one simple price.
> Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street and buy
> tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas station for gas. 
> Ford
> may not be in the business of refining petroleum or making tires, but can
> certainly drive the car off the lot. And in all cases in recent memory the
> dealership also does everything necessary for obtaining the license plate too.
> From: Faisal Imtiaz
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
> >>. I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy.
> Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated to 
> the
> Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they have such
> an opinion. and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in that context ...
> As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person offering the
> opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical backing to
> support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it" opinions, 
> unless
> they are backed up to the reason why.
> I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please
> everyone . FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their
> strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products shine
> in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone has.. 
> Needs
> to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective..
> In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a 
> little
> bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is, this is
> physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help you in 
> gaining
> a better understanding of what is the difference one can expect between
> 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment region.. (I agree with
> Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain zone, and I also agree with
> Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref ).
> I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License being 
> high
> ? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination etc... I
> would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this...
> :)
> Happy Weekend.
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net

> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

>> From: "Steve Jones" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

>> I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad about the
>> 5ghz stuff
>> On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote:

>>> Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.

>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions

>>> Midwest Internet Exchange

>>> The Brothers WISP

>>> From: "Steve Jones" < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

>>> Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain region.
>>> Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells you 24 
>>> GHZ
>>> is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but some guy 
>>> in a
>>> desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care about him
>>> here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher frequencies
>>> yout rain zone, it really matters.
>>> but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th
>>> market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally 
>>> nothing
>>> Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes for 
>>> 200mb...
>>> just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to remember, 
>>> UBNT
>>> 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product. Just before
>>> Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.
>>> 11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick 
>>> about
>>> it. 

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Al Rachide]

Looking at OTTV on TDAmeritrade, it does not look like it will survive
financially. Is there something there that I am missing? The idea sounds
great for our area, especially the Latino side of the equation. Does OTTV
have a WISP re-seller plan? If so, how do we get info on that?

Thanks,
Al Rachide
Eastern Carolina Broadband




Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Josh Reynolds]

Except in the case of the licenses, that is done by the federal government
- a non business entity.

Not sure license fees with the FCC are up for negotiation, unless you have
your own army of lobbyists.

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 3:24 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that perhaps
> you should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving along to your
> customers.  Radio, antenna, license – all in a package for one simple
> price.
>
> Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street and
> buy tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas station for
> gas.  Ford may not be in the business of refining petroleum or making
> tires, but can certainly drive the car off the lot.  And in all cases in
> recent memory the dealership also does everything necessary for obtaining
> the license plate too.
>
> *From:* Faisal Imtiaz
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>
> >>.I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy.
>
> Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated
> to the Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they
> have such an opinion. and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in
> that context ...
>
> As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person offering
> the opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical backing
> to support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it" opinions,
> unless they are backed up to the reason why.
>
> I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please
> everyone . FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their
> strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products
> shine in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone
> has.. Needs to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective..
>
> In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a
> little bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is,
> this is physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help
> you in  gaining  a better understanding of what is the difference one can
> expect between 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment
> region.. (I agree with Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain
> zone, and I also agree with Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide,
> not an absolute ref  ).
>
> I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License being
> high ? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination
> etc... I would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this...
>
> :)
>
> Happy Weekend.
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> http://www.snappytelecom.net
>
> Tel: 305 663 5518 <(305)%20663-5518> x 232
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Steve Jones" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>
> I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad about
> the 5ghz stuff
>
> On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Steve Jones" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>>
>> Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain
>> region. Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and
>> tells you 24 GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im
>> mercan) but some guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6
>> miles, I dont care about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you
>> get into the higher frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters.
>> but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on
>> th market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally
>> nothing Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier
>> classes for 200mb... 

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Mike Hammett]

Do they also have OTA, DVR, etc.? 

Asking because I don't know. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 3:53:04 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment 



Most of the Android boxes around $25-$40 work with them. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:36 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment 


CTI has a box that's supposed to do everything. Does anyone know if any of the 
WISP-focused IPTV providers work with it? 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway" < r...@triadwireless.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:06:45 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment 
It doesn’t get local channels. We have tested a couple of Android devices and 
will probably include an outdoor antenna with customers that get Viva in a 
package deal. 

We have a website set up for signing up and tracking all your customers that 
connect. I’ll have that information out by the middle of next week. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:40 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment 

Hey Rory Conway: 



I talked to Viva Entertainment today. There's basically no barrier to entry and 
that's good. 



The guy told me that network channels (ABC, NBC, FOX) would be from New York 
City. That wouldn't normally be allowed in the content licensing, so I'm 
wondering if he was mistaken. Do you get your local network channels on Viva? 
Are they are your actual locals, or are they from another market? 



Thanks, 
Adam 

Re: [AFMUG] How to test your license protection?

[Tim Hardy]

A couple of comments / thoughts:

For actual interference into your receivers, you should be able to easily
test this by fading your path(s) to threshold.  If you can’t make it all
the way to threshold, you undoubtedly have interference.  This is commonly
called a fade test and should be done as a matter of routine on every path
during installation.  Some licensees do these fade tests on every path on a
yearly or regular basis, just to ensure that nothing is infringing on their
designed fade margins.  Doing the test during installation is the only way
to accurately verify that your coordinator did a good job of properly
engineering around all other licensed and previously coordinated proposals
and that they protected your path’s full fade margin.  Of course, fade
tests are not practical when dealing with prior coordination proposals
since the test couldn’t be run until the other proposal is licensed and
operating - too late to do anything about it.

The protection service offered by a couple of the major coordinators
removes 99% of actual interference cases that are created primarily due to
shoddy work by the coordinator of the new proposal.  Your example below of
having to reduce power 10 dB due to a “complaint from a major carrier” is a
prime example of sub-standard work by the coordinator.  The coordinator is
supposed to run a rigorous analysis BEFORE they ever issue a coordination
notice, but obviously they missed this 10 dB case into another user - this
begs the question of what else did they miss?  If the process is done
correctly, and a proper upfront analysis has been done, there should be no
surprises and constant changes in frequencies, power levels, etc.

There are some inexperienced coordinators out there that seem to think it’s
okay to use the coordination process to “shotgun” proposals out on notice
and keep changing them based on who complains.  The big problem with this
is that 60% of the licensed paths aren’t covered under a professional
protection service, so major interference cases have been missed.  I have
even found major cases (some over 20 dB) between two proposals done by the
same coordinator - luckily these were pointed out before they got
licensed.  So, beware of any coordinator that has to change things
over-and-over again to get your path “cleared”.  If a power reduction is
necessary, they should be discussing this with you upfront, if not, you are
not getting your money’s worth from this coordinator and you should
definitely look elsewhere.

The protection service is a bargain when you factor in how many new paths
are proposed and the peace of mind it gives you, knowing that your paths
and their fade margins will be fully protected.

DISCLAIMER

I was one of the three founders of Comsearch in 1977 and just recently
retired (Oct 2017).  I am not currently affiliated with any coordinator or
company and the thoughts and opinions expressed herein are mine alone!

Tim Hardy

——

So half out 11ghz is through the hottie at intellipathe the orth half is
through commscope. With commscope you get a free year of "protection".
Sure, we get our monthly readouts on the commscope thing. But how do I KNOW
theyre doing their due diligence? I havent gotten one " ALERT:theyre poking
your bear" email. We just got a ne license that we had to dump 10db on over
a complaint from a major carrier VERY far away.
How do I test that my gear is actually protected, since I realistically
cant complain after the fact?
Eventually wed have to protect all our shots, and pay for it.
This complaint seemed to have happened even before a PCN, the solution of
the 10 db even faster. (not complaining at all on that, I just now that the
few PCNs I have time to map, I wouldnt have had a response this quick, let
alone resolution)
All I have in this are questions, all answers or ideas are welcome.
Is this just an issue that we arent "carrier" enough to have dedicated
staff to complain or what?

Re: [AFMUG] Municameras

[Carl Peterson]

We work with Onssi for a large government customer.  Are you talking about
recording?  Managing the cameras?

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 1:01 AM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> vendor OT responses appreciated
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone here ever been involved in citywide surveillance?
>> A starting point being 4x intersection cameras.
>> 1984 being a good jump off point.
>>
>>  Whats kind of system would cover roughly 8.5 square miles? (relatively
>> minute in city size)
>> This is multiple thousands of cameras.
>> Pretty sure there isnt a ubnt unifi solution of that scale.
>> Anybody dealt with that? Assuming that the overall system would catch an
>> in morion plate and have a tax payer freindly masking option?
>>
>>
>


-- 

Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Rory Conaway]

Most of the Android boxes around $25-$40 work with them.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:36 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

CTI has a box that's supposed to do everything. Does anyone know if any of the 
WISP-focused IPTV providers work with it?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Rory Conaway" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:06:45 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment
It doesn’t get local channels.  We have tested a couple of Android devices and 
will probably include an outdoor antenna with customers that get Viva in a 
package deal.

We have a website set up for signing up and tracking all your customers that 
connect.  I’ll have that information out by the middle of next week.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:40 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

Hey Rory Conway:

I talked to Viva Entertainment today.  There's basically no barrier to entry 
and that's good.

The guy told me that network channels (ABC, NBC, FOX) would be from New York 
City.  That wouldn't normally be allowed in the content licensing, so I'm 
wondering if he was mistaken.  Do you get your local network channels on Viva?  
Are they are your actual locals, or are they from another market?

Thanks,
Adam

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Chuck McCown]

If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that perhaps you 
should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving along to your customers.  
Radio, antenna, license – all in a package for one simple price.  

Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street and buy 
tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas station for gas.  
Ford may not be in the business of refining petroleum or making tires, but can 
certainly drive the car off the lot.  And in all cases in recent memory the 
dealership also does everything necessary for obtaining the license plate too.  

From: Faisal Imtiaz 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

>>.I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. 

Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated to the 
Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they have such 
an opinion. and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in that context ... 

As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person offering the 
opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical backing to 
support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it" opinions, unless 
they are backed up to the reason why.

I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please 
everyone . FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their 
strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products shine 
in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone has.. Needs 
to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective..

In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a little 
bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is, this is 
physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help you in  
gaining  a better understanding of what is the difference one can expect 
between 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment region.. (I 
agree with Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain zone, and I also 
agree with Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref  ).

I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License being high 
? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination etc... I 
would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this... 

:)

Happy Weekend.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net




  From: "Steve Jones" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

  I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad about the 
5ghz stuff

  On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Steve Jones" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz


Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain region. 
Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells you 24 GHZ 
is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but some guy in a 
desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care about him 
here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher frequencies 
yout rain zone, it really matters. 
but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th 
market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally nothing 
Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes for 200mb... 
just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to remember, UBNT 
24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product. Just before 
Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys. 

11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick 
about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in central 
Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off 10db to get 
a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max EIRP could 
impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles away. Im not 
complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have done it too.

however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link, put 
it on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all day. You 
know what you can do? you can go to 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Faisal Imtiaz]

>>. I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. 

Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated to the 
Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they have such 
an opinion. and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in that context ... 

As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person offering the 
opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical backing to 
support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it" opinions, unless 
they are backed up to the reason why. 

I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please 
everyone . FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their 
strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products shine 
in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone has.. Needs 
to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective.. 

In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a little 
bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is, this is 
physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help you in gaining 
a better understanding of what is the difference one can expect between 
24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment region.. (I agree with 
Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain zone, and I also agree with 
Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref ). 

I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License being high 
? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination etc... I 
would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this... 

:) 

Happy Weekend. 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
http://www.snappytelecom.net 

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Steve Jones" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

> I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad about the
> 5ghz stuff

> On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote:

>> Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.

>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions

>> Midwest Internet Exchange

>> The Brothers WISP

>> From: "Steve Jones" < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

>> Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain region.
>> Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells you 24 
>> GHZ
>> is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but some guy 
>> in a
>> desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care about him
>> here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher frequencies
>> yout rain zone, it really matters.
>> but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th
>> market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally 
>> nothing
>> Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes for 
>> 200mb...
>> just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to remember, 
>> UBNT
>> 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product. Just before
>> Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.

>> 11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick 
>> about
>> it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in central 
>> Indiana,
>> you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off 10db to get a link
>> because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max EIRP could impact 
>> that
>> link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles away. Im not complaining, 
>> if
>> I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have done it too.

>> however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link, put 
>> it
>> on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all day. You 
>> know
>> what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice double frappe
>> vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth, and take it to 
>> your
>> shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it while humming Mary 
>> had a
>> little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your recourse.

>> And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to put
>> another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not 
>> if
>> the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my 
>> friends.
>> The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully squat some
>> spectrum on the cheap.

>> FWIW

>> Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, Im 
>> only a
>> decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and smacked me 
>> like a
>> wife who didnt have 

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Mike Hammett]

CTI has a box that's supposed to do everything. Does anyone know if any of the 
WISP-focused IPTV providers work with it? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:06:45 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment 



It doesn’t get local channels. We have tested a couple of Android devices and 
will probably include an outdoor antenna with customers that get Viva in a 
package deal. 

We have a website set up for signing up and tracking all your customers that 
connect. I’ll have that information out by the middle of next week. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:40 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment 

Hey Rory Conway: 



I talked to Viva Entertainment today. There's basically no barrier to entry and 
that's good. 



The guy told me that network channels (ABC, NBC, FOX) would be from New York 
City. That wouldn't normally be allowed in the content licensing, so I'm 
wondering if he was mistaken. Do you get your local network channels on Viva? 
Are they are your actual locals, or are they from another market? 



Thanks, 
Adam 

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Mike Hammett]

They may be the same company, but surely they haven't merged the lines already. 
Of course there's always legacy stuff too. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"  
To: "Jason McKemie"  
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:16:36 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT 

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT Jason, 

Dasan and Zhone are the same. There was a merger/take over last year. If you 
are just looking for outdoor ONT's, the 42xx GPON is what you want. Comes in 
many different flavors. 
http://dasanzhone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GPON-Outdoor-ONT-Products-1.pdf
 

-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

-- 

Tuesday, February 6, 2018, 9:45:24 PM, you wrote: 


It looked like it has options for coax/fiber hybrid, but their use-case 
diagram shows a straight fiber setup as well. I do not have any coax either. 
One of my providers distributes Zhone, not sure if that means they have Dasan 
as well... 

Thanks again. 

On Tuesday, February 6, 2018, Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 

Jason, 

No, we use the 42xx outdoor and the 24xx indoor GPON units. That looks like a 
fiber/coax hybird. We are strictly 100% fiber. I will have to check with our 
purchasing guy to see where we are currently getting our units from. 

-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

-- 

Tuesday, February 6, 2018, 6:48:29 PM, you wrote: 


Mark - 

Do you have any experience with the outdoor OLT I linked to? Who are you buying 
from? 

Thanks. 


On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies < m...@mailmt.com > 
wrote: 

Jason, 

We have about 2500 of the DASAN/Zhone onts deployed. A mix of indoor and 
outdoor. Been using them for at least 6 years. Let me know if you have any 
questions. 

-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

-- 


Tuesday, February 6, 2018, 5:35:54 PM, you wrote: 


In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be 
anywhere near within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions? 

I found these guys, but have never heard of them: 
http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116 

It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them: 
http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf 

-Jason 

Re: [AFMUG] Cellular One approach to WISP

[Mike Hammett]

Tell the WISPs doing it wrong that they're doing it wrong. They'll appreciate 
it so much, they'll happily correct it. 

;-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Justin Wilson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 9:34:49 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cellular One approach to WISP 


Keep in mind the Cellular one brand did not translate well into fixed wireless. 
I saw that first hand. It was easy in the cellular market. There needs to be a 
ton of standardization for things to happen. We have a co-op here in indiana, 
but everyone uses different equipment, different authentication methods, 
different billing systems, different etc. etc. LTE removes some of these 
barriers, but its still an issue. 


Danville Illinois was one of the last holdouts of Cellular one. They had fixed 
wireless even after the sale to ATT. It was so outdated and slow they just 
abandoned. They just told customers it was getting shut off. They offered no 
alternatives. 




Justin Wilson 
j...@mtin.net 


www.mtin.net 
www.midwest-ix.com 




On Jan 30, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Mathew Howard < mhoward...@gmail.com > wrote: 


If I remember correctly, Cellular One eventually turned into something more 
like JAB/Rise, but in the beginning it was more like a coop of independent 
companies working together for advertising, etc, and to work together instead 
of just fighting amongst themselves. 

I always thought that would be a good idea for WISPs. 



On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Gino A. Villarini < g...@aeronetpr.com > 
wrote: 




Jab/ rise buys and aggregates companies, Cellular One was more like a 
coop/franchise system 


From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Lewis Bergman < 
lewis.berg...@gmail.com > 
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 11:46 AM 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cellular One approach to WISP 





I thought that is what JAB/Rise was doing. 


On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:11 AM Timothy Steele < timothy.pct...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 





What do you mean? Cellular one is known as the worst company alive everywhere 
I've been 


On Tue, Jan 30, 2018, 9:57 AM Gino A. Villarini < g...@aeronetpr.com > wrote: 




Hey Guys 


Those who know the history behind Cellular One, don’t you think this should be 
repeated in the WISP industry? 

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Mike Hammett]

I think Chuck Hogg walked far away from DASAN... or maybe it was DASAN that 
rescued them from the one they walked far away form. I don't remember which. 
;-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Jason McKemie"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:35:53 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT 


In light of finding out that Calix's offering is not going to be anywhere near 
within budget, does anyone else have any other suggestions? 


I found these guys, but have never heard of them: 
http://www.richerlink.com/en/products.asp?ClassID=116 



It looks like DASAN also has an option - I've at least heard of them: 
http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/V5806_20140520174927.pdf 



-Jason 

Re: [AFMUG] New Server Hardware

[Mike Hammett]

I would only host elsewhere what must be hosted elsewhere. Everything else 
in-house. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Nate Burke"  
To: "Animal Farm"  
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 12:02:41 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] New Server Hardware 

I'm going to need to bring online a couple new servers (OS Instances) in 
the next month or 2. They could probably be housed inside a single 
physical machine as VM's. It's been a while since I've had to pickup 
new server hardware. What's a good spec now for a machine to do VM's. 
Are NAS prices cheap enough now that you'd go with external storage, or 
just have a single physical machine with internal HDD's. Hardware NAS, 
or another machine running linux and ZFS? With external Storage, does 
it all have to be 10G networking to prevent bottlenecks? About 6 years 
ago I put in a single standalone server running VMWare, but it's out of 
resources to add new VM's to it. 

It looks like Newegg has lots of Refurb Dell and HP servers (with no 
HDD's) for cheap. DL380G5 ~$100. I'd like to stay in the $2k-$3k range 
for this project. Or is hosting your own hardware not even worth it 
anymore? Just go get a server from 1and1 for $5/mo setup a VPN back to 
the network and be done? 

Re: [AFMUG] How to test your license protection?

[Chuck McCown]

I got to the point I just throw the notices away without opening them.  

From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] How to test your license protection?

I can speak to the fact that Commscope does watch your license and if something 
is truly going to interfere they will file an objection on your behalf. They 
will alert you by email that they have have filled and ask for further 
guidance. If you want to object or allow them to build out. I don't know if 
intellipath does the same. 
I do know that once you get a few dozen links spread out over a couple hundred 
miles you get swamped but those notices. If they don't include a map it takes a 
lot of effort to figure out if they would interfere with you. I paid Commscope 
and thought it was a bargain.



On Sun, Feb 11, 2018, 2:16 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

  So half out 11ghz is through the hottie at intellipathe the orth half is 
through commscope. With commscope you get a free year of "protection". 
  Sure, we get our monthly readouts on the commscope thing. But how do I KNOW 
theyre doing their due diligence? I havent gotten one " ALERT:theyre poking 
your bear" email. We just got a ne license that we had to dump 10db on over a 
complaint from a major carrier VERY far away. 
  How do I test that my gear is actually protected, since I realistically cant 
complain after the fact?
  Eventually wed have to protect all our shots, and pay for it.
  This complaint seemed to have happened even before a PCN, the solution of the 
10 db even faster. (not complaining at all on that, I just now that the few 
PCNs I have time to map, I wouldnt have had a response this quick, let alone 
resolution)

  All I have in this are questions, all answers or ideas are welcome. 
  Is this just an issue that we arent "carrier" enough to have dedicated staff 
to complain or what?

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Steve Jones]

I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad about
the 5ghz stuff

On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Steve Jones" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>
> Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain
> region. Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and
> tells you 24 GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im
> mercan) but some guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6
> miles, I dont care about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you
> get into the higher frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters.
> but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th
> market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally
> nothing Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier
> classes for 200mb... just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else.
> You have to remember, UBNT 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a
> Motorola product. Just before Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.
>
> 11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick
> about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in
> central Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off
> 10db to get a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max
> EIRP could impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles
> away. Im not complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have
> done it too.
>
> however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link,
> put it on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all
> day. You know what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice
> double frappe vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth,
> and take it to your shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it
> while humming Mary had a little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your
> recourse.
>
> And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to put
> another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not
> if the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my
> friends. The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully
> squat some spectrum on the cheap.
>
> FWIW
>
> Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, Im
> only a decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and
> smacked me like a wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long
> before I made some bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a
> woman. Know where you are and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full
> bukakee on a housewife.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from
>> the AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high
>> throughput. We gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in
>> congested areas anyway.
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>>
>> On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the
>> B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do
>> more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one
>> direction with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you
>> can only get around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real
>> full duplex radio though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you
>> need a 50/50 split).
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24
>>> GHz. Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest
>>> 6 GHz.
>>>
>>> I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more
>>> throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/10/2018 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Mike Hammett]

Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Steve Jones"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz 


Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain region. 
Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells you 24 GHZ 
is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but some guy in a 
desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care about him 
here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher frequencies 
yout rain zone, it really matters. 
but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th 
market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally nothing 
Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes for 200mb... 
just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to remember, UBNT 
24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product. Just before 
Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys. 


11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick 
about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in central 
Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off 10db to get 
a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max EIRP could 
impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles away. Im not 
complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have done it too. 


however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link, put it 
on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all day. You know 
what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice double frappe 
vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth, and take it to your 
shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it while humming Mary had a 
little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your recourse. 


And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to put 
another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not if 
the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my friends. 
The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully squat some 
spectrum on the cheap. 


FWIW 


Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, Im only a 
decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and smacked me like a 
wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long before I made some 
bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a woman. Know where you are 
and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full bukakee on a housewife. 







On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from the 
AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high throughput. We 
gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in congested areas anyway. 


bp
 


On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: 



Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the B11, 
but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do more 
throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one direction 
with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you can only get 
around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real full duplex radio 
though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you need a 50/50 split). 


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 




What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 GHz. 
Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest 6 GHz. 
I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more throughput on 
less spectrum. Probably less expensive too. 

bp
 
On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote: 




I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We have been 
doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of 
years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to 
see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d like to make the jump 
to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.�� The 
links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 
24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range 
for the links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.�� For 
11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Mike Hammett]

Rain regions are pure shit if you actually care about being accurate in your 
rain fade\downtime calculations. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Steve Jones"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz 


Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain region. 
Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells you 24 GHZ 
is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but some guy in a 
desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care about him 
here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher frequencies 
yout rain zone, it really matters. 
but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing on th 
market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally nothing 
Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes for 200mb... 
just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to remember, UBNT 
24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product. Just before 
Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys. 


11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a dick 
about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in central 
Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off 10db to get 
a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max EIRP could 
impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles away. Im not 
complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have done it too. 


however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz link, put it 
on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all day. You know 
what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice double frappe 
vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth, and take it to your 
shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it while humming Mary had a 
little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your recourse. 


And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to put 
another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not if 
the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my friends. 
The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully squat some 
spectrum on the cheap. 


FWIW 


Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, Im only a 
decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and smacked me like a 
wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long before I made some 
bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a woman. Know where you are 
and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full bukakee on a housewife. 







On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from the 
AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high throughput. We 
gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in congested areas anyway. 


bp
 


On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: 



Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the B11, 
but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do more 
throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one direction 
with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you can only get 
around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real full duplex radio 
though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you need a 50/50 split). 


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince < part15...@gmail.com > wrote: 




What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 GHz. 
Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest 6 GHz. 
I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more throughput on 
less spectrum. Probably less expensive too. 

bp
 
On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote: 




I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We have been 
doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of 
years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to 
see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d like to make the jump 
to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.�� The 
links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 
24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range 
for the links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.�� For 
11 GHz, we would likely 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Mike Hammett]

https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp/posts/1152763711515746 


https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp/posts/956205354504917 

Use those to provide some accuracy to your rain fade estimates. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "David Coudron"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 4:57:39 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz 



I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve. We have been doing 
primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of years. 
Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to see more 
locations that have lots of noise. We’d like to make the jump to higher 
frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that. The links we need 
are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 24 GHz 
solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range for the 
links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us. For 11 GHz, we 
would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty well and have 
all the management tools in place for it. For 24 GHz we’d likely go with the 
Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD. We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there, 
and just don’t have much familiarity with any other options outside of 
AirFiber. Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options: 

Mimosa 11 GHz Pros: 

1. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license and 
require less babysitting for interference 
2. Should support longer links, but that isn’t a big consideration for us 
as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for sure 
and likely the AF 24 as well 
3. Little less susceptible to rain fade 


Cons: 

1. Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated with 
it 
2. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before applying 
for the license 
3. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD) 
4. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD) 



Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros: 

1. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links 
2. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy 
3. Higher throughput on the HD 


Cons: 

1. Unlicensed. Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links now 
might have noise later 
2. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although this 
isn’t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti products 
3. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link 


Here are some questions we are hoping for help with: 

1. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if you 
see other noise out there? We have been looking but are finding it tough to 
figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to 
other channels. 
2. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic across 
any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD? Seems like a well planned link 
with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking for some real 
world experience. 
3. Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the ones 
already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious questions? 


Thanks, 

David Coudron 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[Rory Conaway]

We are getting ready to do a lot of these and will be using 18GHz.  I’m not 
agreeing with Steve on the Mimosa gear, I’ve got several B11’s up, one as far 
as 50 miles.  If you are limited to 40MHz, then Ubiquiti is more efficient.  If 
you have 80MHz, then Mimosa, at least until Bridgewave comes out with their new 
Navigator.  However, they were a year behind Mimosa so a lot of spectrum was 
used and reserved before that option became available.

11GHz is pretty much hammered in the areas that we are in so 18GHz looks a lot 
more attractive for 5-7 miles for now.

Rory



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of David Coudron
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:08 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

Hey guys,

Thanks a ton for the input.  Looks like we got oversold on the distance from 
the link planning tools for 24 GHz.   This conversation has been really 
helpful, although I had to call over 3 different people to help interpret 
Steve’s reply    Once they stopped laughing at this thread and the “tying down 
wires” reply, we got it figured out.

For us, our links are mostly in the 6 mile or a little over 6 mile range.  
Sounds like 11 GHz is the right move.

Much appreciated.

David Coudron


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz


Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from the 
AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high throughput. We 
gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in congested areas anyway.



bp




On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the B11, 
but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do more 
throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one direction 
with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you can only get 
around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real full duplex radio 
though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you need a 50/50 split).

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince 
> wrote:

What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 GHz. 
Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest 6 GHz.

I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more throughput on 
less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.



bp




On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We have been 
doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of 
years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to 
see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d like to make the jump 
to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.�� The 
links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 
24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range 
for the links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.�� For 
11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty 
well and have all the management tools in place for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d 
likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.�� We have worked with 
Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don�t have much familiarity with any 
other options outside of AirFiber.� Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of 
the two options:
�
Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

  1.  Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license and 
require less babysitting for interference
  2.  Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big consideration for us 
as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for sure 
and likely the AF 24 as well
  3.  Little less susceptible to rain fade
�
Cons:

  1.  Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated with 
it
  2.  Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before applying 
for the license
  3.  Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
  4.  More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)
�
�
Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

  1.  All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
  2.  No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
  3.  Higher throughput on the HD
�
Cons:

  1.  Unlicensed.� Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links 
now might have noise later
  2.  Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although this 
isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti 

Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

[David Coudron]

Hey guys,

Thanks a ton for the input.  Looks like we got oversold on the distance from 
the link planning tools for 24 GHz.   This conversation has been really 
helpful, although I had to call over 3 different people to help interpret 
Steve’s reply    Once they stopped laughing at this thread and the “tying down 
wires” reply, we got it figured out.

For us, our links are mostly in the 6 mile or a little over 6 mile range.  
Sounds like 11 GHz is the right move.

Much appreciated.

David Coudron


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz


Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability from the 
AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high throughput. We 
gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in congested areas anyway.



bp




On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum compared to the B11, 
but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), so it can do more 
throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig in one direction 
with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but you can only get 
around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real full duplex radio 
though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you need a 50/50 split).

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince 
> wrote:

What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or so) 24 GHz. 
Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. Longest 6 GHz.

I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more throughput on 
less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.



bp




On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would throw it out again to 
hear additional thoughts as products continue to evolve.�� We have been 
doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products for the last couple of 
years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, but we are starting to 
see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d like to make the jump 
to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 GHz for that.�� The 
links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which pushes the limits of the 
24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site we think we are in range 
for the links we are looking at as far as the design tools tell us.�� For 
11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product line, we know it pretty 
well and have all the management tools in place for it.�� For 24 GHz we�d 
likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 HD.�� We have worked with 
Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don�t have much familiarity with any 
other options outside of AirFiber.� Here is where we see the Pros and Cons of 
the two options:
�
Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

  1.  Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of the license and 
require less babysitting for interference
  2.  Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big consideration for us 
as it looks like everything we will need is under the limits of the HD for sure 
and likely the AF 24 as well
  3.  Little less susceptible to rain fade
�
Cons:

  1.  Have to mess around with the license and there is a cost associated with 
it
  2.  Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use before applying 
for the license
  3.  Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 24 HD)
  4.  More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less than the HD)
�
�
Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

  1.  All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on hand for all links
  2.  No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker to deploy
  3.  Higher throughput on the HD
�
Cons:

  1.  Unlicensed.� Might fight other noise out there, and even quiet links 
now might have noise later
  2.  Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with Mimosa, although this 
isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots of Ubiquiti products
  3.  Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link
�
Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

  1.  How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move channels if you see 
other noise out there?�� We have been looking but are finding it tough to 
figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we be able to move to 
other channels.
  2.  Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate IP traffic across 
any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?�� Seems like a well planned 
link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, but looking for some 
real world experience.
  3.  Any oddball items we should take into consideration other than the ones 
already mentioned here? Or are we missing some 

Re: [AFMUG] How to test your license protection?

[Lewis Bergman]

I can speak to the fact that Commscope does watch your license and if
something is truly going to interfere they will file an objection on your
behalf. They will alert you by email that they have have filled and ask for
further guidance. If you want to object or allow them to build out. I don't
know if intellipath does the same.
I do know that once you get a few dozen links spread out over a couple
hundred miles you get swamped but those notices. If they don't include a
map it takes a lot of effort to figure out if they would interfere with
you. I paid Commscope and thought it was a bargain.

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018, 2:16 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

> So half out 11ghz is through the hottie at intellipathe the orth half is
> through commscope. With commscope you get a free year of "protection".
> Sure, we get our monthly readouts on the commscope thing. But how do I
> KNOW theyre doing their due diligence? I havent gotten one " ALERT:theyre
> poking your bear" email. We just got a ne license that we had to dump 10db
> on over a complaint from a major carrier VERY far away.
> How do I test that my gear is actually protected, since I realistically
> cant complain after the fact?
> Eventually wed have to protect all our shots, and pay for it.
> This complaint seemed to have happened even before a PCN, the solution of
> the 10 db even faster. (not complaining at all on that, I just now that the
> few PCNs I have time to map, I wouldnt have had a response this quick, let
> alone resolution)
> All I have in this are questions, all answers or ideas are welcome.
> Is this just an issue that we arent "carrier" enough to have dedicated
> staff to complain or what?
>
>

[AFMUG] How to test your license protection?

[Steve Jones]

So half out 11ghz is through the hottie at intellipathe the orth half is
through commscope. With commscope you get a free year of "protection".
Sure, we get our monthly readouts on the commscope thing. But how do I KNOW
theyre doing their due diligence? I havent gotten one " ALERT:theyre poking
your bear" email. We just got a ne license that we had to dump 10db on over
a complaint from a major carrier VERY far away.
How do I test that my gear is actually protected, since I realistically
cant complain after the fact?
Eventually wed have to protect all our shots, and pay for it.
This complaint seemed to have happened even before a PCN, the solution of
the 10 db even faster. (not complaining at all on that, I just now that the
few PCNs I have time to map, I wouldnt have had a response this quick, let
alone resolution)
All I have in this are questions, all answers or ideas are welcome.
Is this just an issue that we arent "carrier" enough to have dedicated
staff to complain or what?