Am I right in thinking that what these people:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html
are saying is that memories can be stored as changes in the DNA inside
neurons?
If so, that would upset a few apple carts.
Would it mean that memories
Note also,
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200308/20030803A0129895.php
Jean Baptiste de Lamarck (1744-1829) maintained that characteristics
that were acquired during an organism's lifetime are passed on to its
offspring. This theory, known as Lamarckian inheritance, was later
On 12/3/2008 8:11 AM, Richard Loosemore wrote:
Am I right in thinking that what these people:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html
are saying is that memories can be stored as changes in the DNA
inside neurons?
If so, that would
Richard,
The role played by the epigenome in genetics actually does have a slightly
Lamarckian tinge. Nova had a show saying that when identical twins are born
their epigenomes are very similar, but that as they age their epigenomes
start to differ more an more, and that certain behaviors like
Interesting.
Note, however, that it is conceivable that those other examples of plant
and bacterial adaptation could be explained as situation-specific - in
the sense that the particular cause of the adaptation could have worked
in ways that were not generalizable to other, similar factors.
Harry Chesley wrote:
On 12/3/2008 8:11 AM, Richard Loosemore wrote:
Am I right in thinking that what these people:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html
are saying is that memories can be stored as changes in the DNA
inside neurons?
Implication for neuroscientists proposing to build a WBE (whole brain
emulation): the resolution you need may now have to include all the
DNA in every neuron. Any bets on when they will have the resolution
to do that?
No bets here. But they are proposing that elements are added onto
2008/12/3 Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html
are saying is that memories can be stored as changes in the DNA inside
neurons?
No. They are saying memories might be stored as changes *on* the DNA.
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the link, pretty intriguing. It's important to note that the
mechanism proposed is just a switch that turns specific genes off... so
properly understood, it's likely that the resolution required to model this
mechanism would not necessarily require modeling the entire
2008/12/3 Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Implication for neuroscientists proposing to build a WBE (whole brain
emulation): the resolution you need may now have to include all the
DNA in every neuron. Any bets on when they will have the resolution
to do that?
No bets here. But
Ed,
That's a good point about synapses, but perhaps the methylation just affects
the neuron's output, e.g., the targeted genes express proteins that only find a
functional role in the axon.
Terren
--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Richard,
The role played by the
Philip Hunt wrote:
2008/12/3 Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html
are saying is that memories can be stored as changes in the DNA inside
neurons?
No. They are saying memories might be stored as changes
Terren Suydam wrote:
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the link, pretty intriguing. It's important to note that
the mechanism proposed is just a switch that turns specific genes
off... so properly understood, it's likely that the resolution
required to model this mechanism would not necessarily require
I don' really see how a change in gene expression in the nucleus of a neuron
caused by methylation could store long term memories, since most neural
network models store all most all their information in the location and
differentiation of they synapses.
How is information in a neural net stored
I definitely agree that getting from there to a situation
in which packages of information are being inserted into
germ cell DNA is a long road, but this one new piece of
research has - surprisingly - just cut the length of that
road in half.
Half of infinity is still infinity ;-]
It's just
Terren Suydam wrote:
I definitely agree that getting from there to a situation in which
packages of information are being inserted into germ cell DNA is a
long road, but this one new piece of research has - surprisingly -
just cut the length of that road in half.
Half of infinity is still
Ed,
Though it seems obvious that synapses are *involved* with memory storage, it's
not proven that synapses individually *store* memories. Clearly memory is
distributed, as evidenced by brain injury studies (a situation that led Karl
Pribram/David Bohm to propose a holographic storage
Ed, you seem to be taking the memory as synaptic weight modification
model a bit too seriously ... it's really just a simplified formal
model that captures a certain percentage of what goes on in the brain
(and no one knows how much)
This is why I shy away from brain-modeling approaches to AGI
Does it work?
Assuming that the encodings between parent and child are compatible, it could
work. But you'd still be limited to the total amount of information storage
allowable in the junk DNA (which would necessarily be a miniscule fraction of
the total information stored in the brain as
I know you're just playing here but it would be easy to empirically test
this. Does junk DNA change between birth and death? Something tells me we
would have discovered something that significant a long time ago.
Terren
well, loads of mutations occur in nuclear DNA between birth and
Ben Goertzel wrote:
I know you're just playing here but it would be easy to empirically test this.
Does junk DNA change between birth and death? Something tells me we would have
discovered something that significant a long time ago.
Terren
well, loads of mutations occur in nuclear DNA
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Terry and Ben,
I never implied anything that could be considered a memory at a conscious
level is stored at just one synapse, but all the discussions I have heard of
learning in various brain science books and lectures imply
Terry and Ben,
I never implied anything that could be considered a memory at a conscious
level is stored at just one synapse, but all the discussions I have heard of
learning in various brain science books and lectures imply synaptic weights
are the main place of our memories are stored.
Richard,
You asked can the state of the switches be preserved during reproduction?
According to the Nova show I saw about epigenome, they were able to induce a
change in a mouse's epigenome that changed its appearance, then its children
would be more likely to inherit the same changed
Possibly... it has been shown with methylation. But I think the mechanism
you're proposing could not involve methylation because (someone can correct me
if wrong) methylation is only applicable to coding regions (methyl group only
added to specific DNA sequences that mark the gene). That's not
Steve,
Based on your attached response, How about this alternative approach:
Send (one of) them an email pointing out
http://www.dreliza.com/standards.php which will obviously usurp their own
efforts if they fail to participate, and offer them an opportunity to
suggest amendments these standards
Steve,
Frankly, I find it rather unlikely that Cyc would consider it
obvious that your project will usurp their own efforts if they fail
to participate.
Two points
1) it's not as though you have any really awesome demonstrated results
with Dr. Eliza, that would compel them
2) even if you did,
Junk DNA doesn't code for protein, but it seems to carry out various
control functions over the protein synthesis and interaction
processes, no?
ben g
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Terren Suydam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Possibly... it has been shown with methylation. But I think the
Ben,
I basically agree.
There many things going in the human brain. There are all the different
neuro- chemicals, receptors, and blockers, some of which are not only
effective across individual synapses, but often across broader distances.
There is the fact that neuron branches can
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_inheritance#DNA_methylation_and_chromatin_remodeling
The DNA sites where methylation can occur are rare, except in the regions where
gene transcription occurs... which generally supports what I was saying about
coding regions. However it is certainly
I think the key is to see the gene switching not as an information store per se
but as part of a larger dynamic process (which might be similar in principle to
simulated annealing), in which the contributions of whole neurons (e.g., the
outputs) are switched in some way meaningful to the
Yes.
Ed etc., what comes to mind is Eugene Ishikevich (sp?) 's nonlinear
dynamics models of fast and slow dynamics in neurons, which are based
on ion channel models similar to (but more sophisticated in some cases
than) the classic Hodgkin-Huxley equations
Potentially the gene switching under
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html
Actually, this makes sense. It explains most of the discrepancy between the
10^9 bits of human long term memory estimated by Landauer and the 10^15
synapses in the human brain. If memory is stored in
Well, LTP is definitely real ... and I'm quite sure the scheme you
describe is *not* how learning works in the brain ;-) ,,, but I'm
equally sure that the full story has not yet been uncovered...
ben
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Steve Richfield said:
Seeing that Dr. Eliza's approach is quite different, they should then figure
out that their only choices are to join or die. I wonder how they would
respond? You know these guys. How would YOU play this hand?
I believe that Larry Lefkowitz is still the marketing director
Ben,
Oops, I have made my usual mistake of presuming what is obvious to me. OK,
to correct my error...
I appears obvious to me that the first person who proposes the following
things together as a workable standard, will own the future 'web. This
because the world will enter the metadata faster
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