Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Archival disclosure

[omd via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:45 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> My understanding is that this is an intentional noncomformance on the part
> of mailman. As far as I can recall, it's not a bug. They just decided to
> ignore the standard. There are scripts that will transform it to standard
> format. I used to have a link as a citation for this, but I've since lost
> it.

This suggest that it was actually fixed at some point:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266000

And indeed... if you look at the message to agora-business with
Message-ID: 
,
the "From R. Lee" is escaped.

But that fix wouldn't affect older messages already in the mbox file.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Archival disclosure

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 1:30 AM Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 28, 2017, at 4:15 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
>
> > If you're subscribed to the Agora lists (and I'm pretty sure you are),
> > you should also be able to log in to the archive here:
> > 
>
> Would you believe, these archives are corrupt according to the more
> reasonable interpretations of the BSD mbox format? I suspect that there may
> be a very old Mailman bug lurking in them.
>
> The agora-business archive contains, in the message
>
> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:31:31 +1100 (EST)
> From: Steve Gardner 
> To: Agora Business 
> Message-id: <
> pine.gso.4.10.10211240018260.10341-100...@sng.its.monash.edu.au>
>
> a line beginning with the characters ‘From ‘ which is not prefixed with >
> or transformed by any encoding.
>
> I’ll happily consider that my parser may be incorrect, but I’m reasonably
> sure that no BSD mailbox should contain such a line, other than as a
> message delimiter.
>
> It’s not the end of the world, I can easily fix the message in my local
> copy and carry on with life, but: wow.
>
> -o


Okay, I know this reply is very late. This is just one of those things that
I keep never having time for, or forgetting. I've been meaning to reply to
this since I originally received it though and now I have the time.

My understanding is that this is an intentional noncomformance on the part
of mailman. As far as I can recall, it's not a bug. They just decided to
ignore the standard. There are scripts that will transform it to standard
format. I used to have a link as a citation for this, but I've since lost
it.

-Aris

Re: DIS: How to keep up

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 10:25 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/21/20 10:16 PM, Zyborg Mao via agora-discussion wrote:
>> I just signed up and already have 50+ messages. I'm not sure how to deal
>> with this. Any hints/tips?
> Read everything in agora-official, most things in agora-business (unless
> it's about a contract or something you're not involved in), and only the
> things in agora-discussion that address you or interest you. If your
> email supports it, add tags for the different lists so you can just look
> through agora-official and agora-business when you're low on time or
> uninterested in the discussions.
>
> --
> nch
> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
>
>
And by read I really mean more just "look at until you get the gist."

Official is full of reports and you should get used to checking them for 
specific information (like the parts that impact you) but you don't need 
to understand all of them right away.

Business is where people do things. Especially important to read here is 
the new threads (anything without "Re:" in the title). If the beginning 
of the thread doesn't seem relevant to you, the rest of it probably 
isn't either.

Discussion is definitely the least important. It's good for context, but 
since nothing that happens here actually impacts the game directly, you 
could really ignore all of it and get by just fine. How much you read 
here is up to you.

Ask questions, and if you skip something you can always look at it again 
later when you have more time and context.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: How to keep up

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 10:16 PM, Zyborg Mao via agora-discussion wrote:
> I just signed up and already have 50+ messages. I'm not sure how to deal
> with this. Any hints/tips?

Read everything in agora-official, most things in agora-business (unless 
it's about a contract or something you're not involved in), and only the 
things in agora-discussion that address you or interest you. If your 
email supports it, add tags for the different lists so you can just look 
through agora-official and agora-business when you're low on time or 
uninterested in the discussions.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: How to keep up

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

most of the messages are boring and worthless and just going through the
motions. try to ignore everything in A-D, just check important stuff on A-B
like proposals and contracts and things like that, thats where actual
gameplay happens.

Also join this discord: https://discord.gg/FwmJW8 and we will answer any
questions you may have. This discord is new and will hopefully decerase the
amount of spam.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:16 PM Zyborg Mao via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> I just signed up and already have 50+ messages. I'm not sure how to deal
> with this. Any hints/tips?
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: Put the discord on the agora home page

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

https://discord.gg/FwmJW8

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:12 PM Rebecca via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> See title
>
> Also all should join it, it has been a fun and very active atmosphere,
> although too small.
>
> --
> From R. Lee
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: How to keep up

[Zyborg Mao via agora-discussion]

I just signed up and already have 50+ messages. I'm not sure how to deal
with this. Any hints/tips?

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: TRIGON

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

call a cfj

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:58 PM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 2020-06-21 20:55, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> > Construe this message as extending Trigon's latest public message.
> >
> > I, Trigon, transfer 20 coins to Jason.
>
> I note that the Subject of this message is "BUS: TRIGON" and not "TRIGON"
>
> --
> Trigon
>
> transfer Jason one coin
> nch was here
> I hereby
> don't... trust... the dragon...
> don't... trust... the dragon...
> Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: TRIGON

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-21 20:55, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:

Construe this message as extending Trigon's latest public message.

I, Trigon, transfer 20 coins to Jason.


I note that the Subject of this message is "BUS: TRIGON" and not "TRIGON"

--
Trigon

transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

DIS: Re: OFF: [ADOP] Metareport Revision 1

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

The below document is my revised Metareport (ADoP weekly) valid as of 4:12
am UTC on the 21st of June 2020. The only difference is that Aris is
correctly listed as Prime Minister.

=Metareport=
>
> This is the ADoP’s weekly report
>
> Date of last report: 2020-06-13
>
> Date of this report: 2020-06-21
>
>
> MISCELLANEOUS INFO
>
> --
>
> Filled offices: 15/15 (100%, 0 interim)
>
> Total officers: 10
>
> Consolidation[1]: 1.5
>
> Late reports: 0%
>
> --
>
> [1] This is the number of filled offices divided by the number of
>
> officers. Each officer, on average, holds this many offices.
>
> OFFICES
>
> Office Holder Since Last Election
>
> --
>
> ADoP   R. Lee 2020-06-072020-06-13
>
> ArbitorG. 2019-06-112019-11-23
>
> Assessor   Jason  2019-07-092019-11-11
>
> Distributoromd2018-06-15imposed
>
> Herald PSS2020-05-032020-05-16
>
> Notary ATMunn 2020-06-152020-06-15
>
> Prime Minister Aris   2020-03-072020-03-07
>
> Promotor   Aris   2016-10-212017-09-21
>
> RefereePSS2020-03-292020-04-19
>
> Registrar  Falsifian  2019-05-042020-02-26
>
> Rulekeepor Jason  2019-12-062020-03-07
>
> SpeakerG. 2020-06-15imposed
>
> Tailor PSS2020-04-192020-04-19
>
> Treasuror  Trigon 2020-05-012020-05-01
>
> Webmastor  nch2020-06-032020-06-13
>
> --
>
> * = Interim elected office (vacant or holder not elected)
>
>
> WEEKLY REPORTS
>
> Office Report   Last Published Late[1]
>
> --
>
> ADoP   Offices  2020-06-13[2]
>
> ArbitorJudicial matters 2020-06-20
>
> Herald Matters of Honour2020-06-14
>
> Notary Contracts2020-06-15
>
> Promotor   Proposal pool2020-06-10
>
> RefereeRule violations  2020-06-14
>
> Registrar  Players, Fora2020-06-16
>
> Rulekeepor Short Logical Ruleset2020-06-18
>
> Treasuror  Coins, other currencies  2020-06-19
>


> Tailor Glitter Prices   never
>
> --
>
> [1] ! = 1 period missed, !! = 2, !!! = 3+
>
> [2] Not including this report
>
> MONTHLY REPORTS
>
> Office ReportLast Published Late
>
> --
>
> Herald Patent titles 2020-05-31
>
> Registrar  Player history2020-06-16
>
> Rulekeepor Full Logical Ruleset  2020-05-24
>
> Tailor Ribbons   2020-05-31
>
> Webmastor  Web resources 2020-06-03
>
> --
>
> ELECTIONS
>
> Office Initiated   Phase   Candidates
>
> --
>
> ADoP   2020-06-15  Voting  R. Lee, Murphy
>
> --
>
> STARTABLE ELECTIONS[1]
>
> Office   Last Election
>
> --
>
> Promotor 2017-09-21
>
> Assessor 2019-11-11
>
> Arbitor  2019-11-23
>
> Registrar2020-02-26
>
> Rulekeepor   2020-03-07
>
> --
>
> [1] Anyone can start an election (with 2 support and also becoming a
>
> candidate) 90 days after the previous one (or if it's interim and no
>
> election is ongoing). This section lists the offices for which anyone could
> start an election this way.
>
>
> INTERESTS
>
> -
>
> Office Interest
>
> --
>
> ADoP   Efficiency
>
> ArbitorJustice
>
> Assessor   Efficiency, Legislation
>
> DistributorParticipation
>
> Herald Participation
>
> Notary Economy
>
> Prime Minister Every Ministry
>
> Promotor   Legislation
>
> RefereeJustice
>
> Registrar  Efficiency
>
> Rulekeepor Legislation, Participation
>
> SpeakerEvery Ministry
>
> Tailor Participation
>
> Treasuror  Economy, Economy
>
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Promise] Treasure

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 10:32 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 7:23 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
>  wrote:
>> I believe this fails because promises cannot possess promises
> Why not?


Promises can only be possessed by Agora, players, contracts, and the
Library. A promise is none of those.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Promise] Treasure

[omd via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 7:23 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> I believe this fails because promises cannot possess promises

Why not?

DIS: Re: BUS: [Promise] Treasure

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 10:21 PM, omd via agora-business wrote:
> I grant myself a promise with the text "I pay 200 coins to the bearer".
>
> I transfer that promise to itself.


I believe this fails because promises cannot possess promises, and
because of R2576:

>   Each asset has exactly one owner. If an asset's backing document
>   restricts its ownership to a class of entities, then that asset
>   CANNOT be gained by or transferred to an entity outside that
>   class, and is destroyed if it is owned by an entity outside that
>   class. The restrictions in the previous sentence are subject to
>   modification by its backing document. By default, ownership of an
>   asset is restricted to Agora, players, and contracts.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Contract] Agoran officer monetizes signature

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-21 20:04, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

I transfer 3 coins to SEAMSTRESS and specify the text "don't... trust...
the dragon..."


I approve this signature suggestion, transferring 3 coins to myself.

--
Trigon

transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...

DIS: Re: BUS: is this too morbid?

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?3411

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:00 PM ATMunn via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> I feel like I vaguely recall this being discussed at some point
> previously, but I thought I would go for it anyways.
>
> I initiate a Call for Judgement on the following statement: "If a player
> dies unbeknownst to all persons involved in Agora, e is still a person."
>
> Rule 869 states that
>Any organism that is generally capable of freely originating and
>communicating independent thoughts and ideas is a person. Rules to
>the contrary notwithstanding, no other entities are persons.
>
> If someone dies, e is no longer capable of freely originating and
> communicating independent thoughts and ideas; therefore, e is not a
> person. FALSE.
>
> ...but if nobody knows that e died, then e has to still be a person. We
> can't assume without proof that anyone is dead and declare em not a
> person. So PARADOXICAL? Maybe?
>
> --
> ATMunn
> friendly neighborhood notary here :)
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: [Contract] Agoran officer monetizes signature

[nch via agora-discussion]

I transfer 3 coins to SEAMSTRESS and specify the text "don't... trust... 
the dragon..."

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

this proposal is fine except it better not ues the word "power"

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 11:50 AM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 2020-06-21 19:45, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On 6/21/20 9:42 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
> >> And that's a problem because...? If players consent to such a contract,
> >> they obviously must be getting something out of it. That shouldn't even
> >> prevent other contracts/players from being empowered.
> >
> > Why wouldn't it prevent other contracts?
> >
> >> If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
> >> Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
> >> is Empowered.
> >
> > [also, typo "their" should be "there"]
> >
> > There can only be one that is Empowered.
>
> Ah, I guess you're right. Still, if someone can monetize Empowerment in
> a way that players feel like they gain something from Empowerment, I
> think that contract deserves to be Empowered.
>
> --
> Trigon
>
> nch was here
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-21 19:45, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/21/20 9:42 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:

And that's a problem because...? If players consent to such a contract,
they obviously must be getting something out of it. That shouldn't even
prevent other contracts/players from being empowered.


Why wouldn't it prevent other contracts?


If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
is Empowered.


[also, typo "their" should be "there"]

There can only be one that is Empowered.


Ah, I guess you're right. Still, if someone can monetize Empowerment in 
a way that players feel like they gain something from Empowerment, I 
think that contract deserves to be Empowered.


--
Trigon

nch was here

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 9:48 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 6:40 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
>  wrote:
>> On 6/21/20 9:38 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> Powerful Contracts
>>>
>>> Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential
>>> values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power
>>> Target (empower) by announcement once a week.
>>>
>>> If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
>>> Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
>>> is Empowered.
>>>
>>> Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered
>>> contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been
>>> done this week.
>>>
>> I feel like this will inevitably lead to a single contract that requires
>> all of its members to empower it.
> Perhaps one under the aegis of the Dragon Corporation? :)
>
>
>
> -Aris


Brilliant idea, I fully support this proto and will vote FOR it.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 6:40 PM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
> On 6/21/20 9:38 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> > Powerful Contracts
> >
> > Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential
> > values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power
> > Target (empower) by announcement once a week.
> >
> > If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
> > Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
> > is Empowered.
> >
> > Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered
> > contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been
> > done this week.
> >
>
> I feel like this will inevitably lead to a single contract that requires
> all of its members to empower it.

Perhaps one under the aegis of the Dragon Corporation? :)



-Aris

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 9:42 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 2020-06-21 19:40, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/21/20 9:38 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> Powerful Contracts
>>>
>>> Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential
>>> values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power
>>> Target (empower) by announcement once a week.
>>>
>>> If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
>>> Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
>>> is Empowered.
>>>
>>> Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered
>>> contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been
>>> done this week.
>>>
>> I feel like this will inevitably lead to a single contract that requires
>> all of its members to empower it.
> And that's a problem because...? If players consent to such a contract, 
> they obviously must be getting something out of it. That shouldn't even 
> prevent other contracts/players from being empowered.
>

Why wouldn't it prevent other contracts?

> If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
> Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
> is Empowered.

[also, typo "their" should be "there"]

There can only be one that is Empowered.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-21 19:40, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/21/20 9:38 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

Powerful Contracts

Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential
values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power
Target (empower) by announcement once a week.

If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
is Empowered.

Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered
contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been
done this week.



I feel like this will inevitably lead to a single contract that requires
all of its members to empower it.


And that's a problem because...? If players consent to such a contract, 
they obviously must be getting something out of it. That shouldn't even 
prevent other contracts/players from being empowered.


--
Trigon

nch was here

Re: DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 9:38 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> Powerful Contracts
>
> Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential
> values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power
> Target (empower) by announcement once a week.
>
> If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
> Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
> is Empowered.
>
> Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered
> contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been
> done this week.
>

I feel like this will inevitably lead to a single contract that requires
all of its members to empower it.

-- 
Jason Cobb

DIS: [Proto] Powerful Contracts

[nch via agora-discussion]

Powerful Contracts

Power Target is a player switch tracked by the Notary with the potential
values None (the default), and any Contract. A player CAN flip eir Power
Target (empower) by announcement once a week.

If their is a single contract that is the value of at least 5 Power
Target switches and is the target of the most Power Target switches, it
is Empowered.

Any player CAN create a Victory Card in the possession of the Empowered
contract by announcement. This CANNOT be done if it has already been
done this week.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

[attn. Treasuror] Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fine, I destroy "Combinotron"

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

Not sure flagging in the message body helps that much. As a loyal member 
of LoAFER, I flagged it in the subject line for you. :)


On 6/21/2020 9:03 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:

I resolve these intents. Attn treasuror

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:02 AM Rebecca  wrote:


Once again, I intend to transfer a victory card and a legislative card
from the L department to me, without objection.

I intend to transfer 500 coins from the L department to the plunder
partnership, without objection

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:00 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:


On 6/15/20 7:34 PM, Edward Murphy via agora-business wrote:

Cuddlebeam wrote:


I intend, without objection, to transfer an amount of coins equal to

the

current amount of coins in the Lost and Found Department from the Lost

and

Found Department to the Plunder Partnership.

I object to all intents to transfer assets from the Lost and Found
Department. I'm open to withdrawing this objection on a case-by-case
basis, though.


I know I'm self interested, but R. Lee *was* trying to get back eir own
assets e accidentally sent to the L

--
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate





--
 From R. Lee






--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary here :)

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8442-8457

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 9:25 PM, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
> I vote like this (despite the large number of AGAINST votes, I am voting
> genuinely)


Said R. Lee, to the discussion forum.

-- 
Jason Cobb

DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8442-8457

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

I vote like this (despite the large number of AGAINST votes, I am voting
genuinely)

ID Author(s)AITitle
---
8442e  G.   1.0   Barrel Barrel Badger Barrel
AGAINST
8443f  G.   2.0   Term Limit
AGAINST
8444f  Aris 2.0   Sedate Officiation
AGAINST
8445*  Aris 3.0   Easier Retitling
AGAINST
8446e  G., nch  1.0   Victory Auction
FOR
8447p  CB   1.0   Rule Infancy
AGAINST
8448*  Aris, Alexis, Falsifian  3.0   Populist Administration
AGAINST
8449p  Aris, [1]1.5   Simpler Heraldry
AGAINST
8450j  G.   1.7   CFJ extensions
AGAINST
8451p  CB   1.0   HUMBLE AGORAN FARMER WINS THE GAME
AGAINST
8452j  P.S.S., Jason, Trigon1.0   Indictment Fixes
FOR
8453p  G.   1.0   win indirection
FOR
8454j  G., Jason, P.S.S.2.0   Judicial non-person fixes
FOR
8455j  G., Jason2.0   old judgements are good judgements
FOR
8456p  G.   1.0   namings
aGAINST
8457f  R. Lee, P.S.S.   2.0   CHILL BRO
FOR

-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: [Contract] Agoran officer monetizes signature

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/2020 7:16 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-business wrote:

I consent to the below contract (sorry Notary).


it's really fine, I joke about being overwhelmed but now that I've 
gotten caught up it's really not that hard to just copy and paste stuff, 
which is pretty much all my job is


--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary here :)

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Action Is better than words

[James Cook via agora-discussion]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 20:13, nch via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> On 6/20/20 8:47 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:
> > Therefore, please join this discord server I made
> > https://discord.gg/UGxm3v
> >
> > Tell me what channels you want all up in there and stuff
> > --
> >  From R. Lee
>
> Just wanted to point out since this isn't obvious on the list: 6 of us
> joined last night and there's been a decent amount of chatter, some of
> which has actually been productive and some of which has just been fun
> in a way the lists aren't conductive towards. I don't think it's been in
> any way detrimental to the lists.

Thanks for the report! Let me know if anything happens worth
mentioning in the weekly summaries.

- Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that

[James Cook via agora-discussion]

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 22:02, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> On 6/20/2020 2:55 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > I don't think we need continuity/historicity on every card transfer, and
> > the only reason for some of the other reports to have timestamped
> > documents (e.g. Treasuror) is to have self-ratified rollback points.
>
> What do people think about a type of self-ratification that ratifies a
> particular git commit as being the authoritative version?  That's
> cloneable if any single platform flakes on us.

What's the advantage over just including the text to be ratified in the message?

Also, we could probably already do this under the current rules. Just
ratify the document at path X at git commit Y (and include a link
where it can be found at the time the message is sent).

- Falsifian

DIS: Re: BUS: [Contract] Agoran officer monetizes signature

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 7:16 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-business wrote:
> I consent to the below contract (sorry Notary).
> 
> -
> Signature Enthusiast Allows Modification of Signature Through Rigorous
> Exchanging of Signature Suggestions
> 
> Players can join and leave this contract at any time.
> 
> Any party to this contract CAN submit a signature suggestion by paying 3
> coins to this contract and stating a short body of text no longer than
> 10 words.
> 
> Within the 4 days after a signature suggestion's submission, Trigon CAN
> and SHALL either approve or deny a signature suggestion by
> announcement. E SHALL NOT deny a suggestion unless the suggestion breaks
> one of the rejection criteria, which are enumerated at the end of this
> contract.
> 
> When Trigon approves a signature suggestion, e adds the suggestion to
> eir signature which is included at the end of all of eir messages, then
> e transfers 3 coins from this contract to emself.
> 
> When Trigon denies a signature suggestion, e transfers 3 coins from this
> contract to the player that submitted the signature suggestion.
> 
> Trigon is obligated to keep each suggestion in eir signature for a
> period of two weeks. After that period elapses, e may remove the
> suggestion at any time.
> 
> The rejection criteria are as follows:
> 
> 1. The suggestion includes swear words.
> 2. The suggestion includes serious, intentional insult to a person.
> 3. The suggestion treats real-world and/or in-game issues lightly.
> 4. The suggestion is otherwise in poor taste.
> 

You should probably include some safety against taking actions. Also,
you seem to be restricting the time period for the CAN, not just the SHALL.

-- 

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8442-8457

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/2020 2:30 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> Like I said, I'm not upset, just... mildly frustrated. Could you attempt to
> get your feedback in somewhat earlier in the process next time? I know the
> lists have been really busy lately, but this has been up for discussion for
> weeks, and you yourself have commented last time this was up for
> distribution. I'm starting to feel slightly like I'm stuck in an infinite
> loop.

I'm sorry.  There were a few different threads about this, and I thought I
said very early on that officers' regulations shouldn't be binding on the
next officer.  It might have been in a different thread and for that I
apologize.

And with the plethora of proposals last week, I honestly lost track of
what was in the proto stage versus proposal stage.  I'd wholly forgotten
this had actually been submitted until you published the draft.

And to be clear, I promoted this for discussion so someone might change my
mind before the voting period ends :).

-G.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8442-8457

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 2:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

>
> On 6/21/2020 2:11 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >> 8448*  Aris, Alexis, Falsifian  3.0   Populist Administration
> > AGAINST.  I think it's very important that elections clear the regulatory
> > slate for incoming officers (or at least let the incoming officer clear
> > the slate).  This current version could lead to an Officer basically
> > making regulations that suit emself and lead to less willingness for
> > people to compete for offices with added regulations.
>
> Just wanted to highlight this for discussion, because I want something
> like this to work, but am quite concerned about the limited officer
> discretion especially in office changeovers.  I could almost vote for this
> with a promise of later amendment, but am unsure now.


Erm...

Not that I disagree, or that I'm upset. But here's the process this
proposal has been through.

1. Aris submits a proto and solicits comments.
2. Various people request changes.
3. Aris incorporates all requested changes and submits a final version.
4. The proposal goes up for voting.
5. G. requests a further change.
6. Aris submits a new version that has G.'s requested change, well in
advance of the distribution.
7. The new version goes up for voting.
8. G. requests a yet further change.

Like I said, I'm not upset, just... mildly frustrated. Could you attempt to
get your feedback in somewhat earlier in the process next time? I know the
lists have been really busy lately, but this has been up for discussion for
weeks, and you yourself have commented last time this was up for
distribution. I'm starting to feel slightly like I'm stuck in an infinite
loop.

As is, this is seeming like something that can be resolved by later
amendment.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8442-8457

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 5:14 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
> 
> On 6/21/2020 2:11 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>> 8448*  Aris, Alexis, Falsifian  3.0   Populist Administration
>> AGAINST.  I think it's very important that elections clear the regulatory
>> slate for incoming officers (or at least let the incoming officer clear
>> the slate).  This current version could lead to an Officer basically
>> making regulations that suit emself and lead to less willingness for
>> people to compete for offices with added regulations.
> 
> Just wanted to highlight this for discussion, because I want something
> like this to work, but am quite concerned about the limited officer
> discretion especially in office changeovers.  I could almost vote for this
> with a promise of later amendment, but am unsure now.
> 

I'd be supportive of such a change, but I also think that we as the
potential supporters and opposers should just be attentive to this in
the meantime.

-- 

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ 3853 Judged True

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 4:11 PM, nch via agora-business wrote:
> On 6/20/20 9:37 AM, nch via agora-business wrote:
>> ===  CFJ 3853 ===
>>
>>  Within the past week, Jason committed the crime of Uncertain
>>  Certification.
>>
>> ==
>>
>> I judge CFJ 3853 TRUE.
> I earn a blue ribbon for judging CFJ 3853.
>
> --
> nch
> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
>
>
Ooops no I don't. I earn blue glitter for judging CFJ 3853.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8442-8457

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/2020 2:11 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> 8448*  Aris, Alexis, Falsifian  3.0   Populist Administration
> AGAINST.  I think it's very important that elections clear the regulatory
> slate for incoming officers (or at least let the incoming officer clear
> the slate).  This current version could lead to an Officer basically
> making regulations that suit emself and lead to less willingness for
> people to compete for offices with added regulations.

Just wanted to highlight this for discussion, because I want something
like this to work, but am quite concerned about the limited officer
discretion especially in office changeovers.  I could almost vote for this
with a promise of later amendment, but am unsure now.

Re: [Poll] A chat client for Agora (was Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that)

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

For someone whose daily driver is a 2008 laptop from a now-defunct company,
bridges are great for me since IRC clients are generally lower-power than
Discord's web interface.

--
Trigon

currently on a phone

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 14:16 nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 6/21/20 3:00 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote:
> > So we could set up a Discord community and then bridge it with IRC.
> > This can sometimes have awkward results [1], but from what I've heard
> > it basically works.
>
> I've been on discords that have IRC/Discord bridges, and they seem
> perfectly serviceable. I don't see any downside either.
>
> --
> nch
> Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
>
>
>

Re: [Poll] A chat client for Agora (was Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that)

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 3:00 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote:
> So we could set up a Discord community and then bridge it with IRC.
> This can sometimes have awkward results [1], but from what I've heard
> it basically works.

I've been on discords that have IRC/Discord bridges, and they seem 
perfectly serviceable. I don't see any downside either.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Herald] Weekly Report

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 4:08 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote:
> 
> On 6/21/2020 1:05 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>
>> On 6/21/2020 12:45 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>> -5 Falsifian <= HONOURLESS WORM
>>
>> 1.  This ain't right.
> 
> Erm, since I just sent the above to Business for the NoH, does the above
> qualify as a CoE (accidental of course).  :)
> 

Given the context and lack of specification, I'm interpreting it as not
one, but I appreciate the sentiment.

-- 

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

DIS: Re: BUS: Action Is better than words

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/20/20 8:47 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:
> Therefore, please join this discord server I made
> https://discord.gg/UGxm3v
>
> Tell me what channels you want all up in there and stuff
> --
>  From R. Lee

Just wanted to point out since this isn't obvious on the list: 6 of us 
joined last night and there's been a decent amount of chatter, some of 
which has actually been productive and some of which has just been fun 
in a way the lists aren't conductive towards. I don't think it's been in 
any way detrimental to the lists.

-- 
nch
Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Herald] Weekly Report

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/2020 12:49 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> On 6/21/20 3:45 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> Herald's Weekly report
>>
>> Date of Last Report: 14 June 2020
>> Date of This Report: 21 June 2020
>>
>> Karma  Entity
>> -  --
>>
>> <= SHOGUN
>>
>> +6 Jason
>> +6 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> +5 Aris
>> +5 G.
>>
>> -  ABOVE +4 STAND THE SAMURAI
>>
> I had to make a judgment call here because the rules aren't clear about
> ties for Shogun. I decided that no one would have it because the rules
> imply that it is unique, but if there are objections, I'll CFJ it.
> 

I think there's something on the cfj books somewhere that by default
"entity with highest/most X" is the empty set if there's a tie.  And in
paticular with that "(if any)" clause in the honor rule.  Don't remember
the cfj context, it wasn't honor, but that was my thinking when we were
drafting the rule (and how it's been marked by the previous heralds I think).

Re: [Poll] A chat client for Agora (was Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving or something like that)

[omd via agora-discussion]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 3:24 PM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> So here comes the poll part: what does everyone think about a chat client?
> IRC or Discord? Something open like Matrix? There are lots of options here.
> What's the call?

In addition to Matrix, open source options include Mattermost,
Rocket.Chat, and Zulip.  I'm willing to host any of those if desired,
although that would probably not be necessary for Matrix since it has
existing free public servers.

As far as I know, those alternatives are largely on par with Discord
in terms of pure functionality.  But that's only part of the story.
If you're on Discord, you can see all your Discord "servers" (i.e.
communities; they're not actually independently hosted) in one
integrated interface.  That makes it easy and convenient to add
another server; personally, I'm on dozens of servers, even though I
rarely even use Discord!  In contrast, using another chat site, even
if it looks like Discord, requires you to actively keep that site open
in your browser.

In other words, Discord has a strong proprietary lock-in.  I'm pretty
annoyed by it, but I don't much blame Discord itself.  I blame the
world for not coming up with better third-party chat clients, ones
capable of integrating multiple independent chat services into one
interface.  There are many IRC clients; there were many AIM/Yahoo/MSN
clients back in the day; where are the "Slack-alike" clients?  There
are ways to connect IRC clients to these services, but they tend to
lose functionality (e.g. edits and formatting).  You'd think it would
be possible to connect Matrix clients to them, but I haven't seen a
gateway that works well for personal use.

On the other hand, more on-topic, there *is* a relatively robust
ecosystem of tools to publicly bridge channels on different services,
where a bot connects to each channel and relays all messages from the
other channel.  For example, there's matterbridge, which, despite its
name referring to Mattermost, is a:

> bridge between mattermost, IRC, gitter, xmpp, slack, discord,
> telegram, rocketchat, steam, twitch, ssh-chat, zulip, whatsapp,
> keybase, matrix, microsoft teams and more with REST API (mattermost
> not required!)

So we could set up a Discord community and then bridge it with IRC.
This can sometimes have awkward results [1], but from what I've heard
it basically works.

[1] https://drewdevault.com/2019/07/01/Absence-of-features-in-IRC.html
(I disagree with the overall thesis, but it shows the problem with
bridges)

DIS: Re: OFF: [Herald] Weekly Report

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 3:45 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> Herald's Weekly report
> 
> Date of Last Report: 14 June 2020
> Date of This Report: 21 June 2020
> 
> Karma  Entity
> -  --
> 
> <= SHOGUN
> 
> +6 Jason
> +6 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> +5 Aris
> +5 G.
> 
> -  ABOVE +4 STAND THE SAMURAI
> 
I had to make a judgment call here because the rules aren't clear about
ties for Shogun. I decided that no one would have it because the rules
imply that it is unique, but if there are objections, I'll CFJ it.

-- 

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

DIS: Re: OFF: [Referee] Crime and Punishment

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 3:51 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> 
>               Crime and Punishment (Referee's Weekly Report)
> 
> 
> Date of this report: 2020-06-21
> Date of last report: 2020-06-14
> (all times UTC)
> 
> 
> BLOT HOLDINGS                                            (self-ratifies)
> 
> 
>    Blots    Active player
>    -    -
>  2  Gaelan
>  1  G.
>      2  omd
> 
>    Blots    Zombie
>    -    --
> 
>    No fugitives exist.
> 
> PENDING FINGERS                                   (does not self-ratify)
> 
> 
>   * Jun 19: R. Lee pointer eir finger at Jason for Uncertain
> Certification for "Future-proofing black ribbons" (see CFJ
> 3853; Indictment is on hold pending a fix)
> 
>   * Jun 19: G. pointed eir finger at R. Lee for Engaging in Forbidden
> Arts (see CFJ 3851; Indictment is on hold pending a fix)
> 
>   * Jun 20: R. Lee pointed eir finger at R. Lee for Uncertain
> Certification of every proposal in the pool at that time
> (Indictment is on hold pending a fix)
> 
> 

I've added this section as much for myself as for others because of the
strange recent developments, but I hope that it will soon become
unnecessary again.

-- 

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Reports as snapshots of fixed time (was: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] let's just match the promotor's reality shall we)

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

Treasuror checking in. I feel like I should comment early on this thread as
this change would affect my office a lot.

--
Trigon

currently on a phone

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 12:16 Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> > Should we do it with other reports too? This would help us get
> > complete snapshots. If we really wanted to, we could even split asset
> > tracking between Dealor/Treasuror as mentioned in the other thread and
> > still have snapshots.
> >
> > Dunno how much complete snapshots matter outside of asset tracking.
>

At first I was a bit apprehensive about this idea, but I have found myself
thinking about this more and more. I think actually that having weekly
snapshots of Asset holdings could be incredibly valuable for historical
purposes. Especially if asset tracking is split among several officers.

For things like CFJs and ADoP, things move slowly enough, or the timing of
> most changes is under the control of the officer (cfj assignments,
> election resolutions) it's easy or easier (IMO) to do up-to-the-minute.
> E.g. I always do the gazette right after case assignments and I rarely
> have to worry about a new cfj being called or judgement delivered in the
> mean time, it would be harder for me to go back and say "what was the
> snapshot 5 days ago" and it seems silly/uniformative to report CFJs as
> "open" (or an office as vacant) when it was resolved 4 days ago.
>

This is a very valid point. I would say the same goes for Rulekeepor;
versions of the ruleset are generally based on the Assessor's resolutions.
Especially relevant at this point since the two officers are currently the
same person.

So my first reaction was that things like Treasuror should also be "up to
> the minute" by default - if the report is filling in lots of little
> transactions it's relatively easy to be "up-to-the minute" and there's
> nothing in currency rules keyed to the start of a week.  But now I'm
> wondering: maybe for gameplay, it *would* be more interesting (and a
> change) to be more turn-based as in "here's the state at the beginning of
> the turn (i.e. the start of the week)."  And if Cards/products get spread
> across multiple offices (as is being discussed) it's probably good to have
> a sync point to track transmutations etc.
>

I know I'm not going to be 100% reliable as a Treasuror. If I had an
obligation to post asset balances as of a specific point in time each week,
the Agoran public could likely count on more consistent snapshots as
opposed to my current philosophy of "let's put one out mid-to-end-of-week"
which allows for a gap of 5-9 days between reports.

In short, I am supportive of this idea in general.

>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] let's just match the promotor's reality shall we

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/2020 10:11 AM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 15:52, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> [This confuses everyone regularly, except Aris.  Let's just make it clear]
>>
>> I submit the following proposal "no backdating needed", AI-3:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Amend Rule 1607 (Distribution) by replacing:
>>   The Promotor's report includes a list of all proposals in the
>>   Proposal Pool
>> with:
>>   The Promotor's report includes a list of all proposals that were
>>   in the Proposal Pool at the beginning of the current Agoran week
>>
>> 
> 
> Should we do it with other reports too? This would help us get
> complete snapshots. If we really wanted to, we could even split asset
> tracking between Dealor/Treasuror as mentioned in the other thread and
> still have snapshots.
> 
> Dunno how much complete snapshots matter outside of asset tracking.

Hmm, my first reaction was that proposals are a special case.  For
proposals, it's good to have a fixed weekly check point so you don't have
to go back and re-do whole proposal distributions if you miss one, and
this explicitly lines up with the current legal responsibilities, that
link distribution to proposals that are in the pool and pending at week start.

For things like CFJs and ADoP, things move slowly enough, or the timing of
most changes is under the control of the officer (cfj assignments,
election resolutions) it's easy or easier (IMO) to do up-to-the-minute.
E.g. I always do the gazette right after case assignments and I rarely
have to worry about a new cfj being called or judgement delivered in the
mean time, it would be harder for me to go back and say "what was the
snapshot 5 days ago" and it seems silly/uniformative to report CFJs as
"open" (or an office as vacant) when it was resolved 4 days ago.

So my first reaction was that things like Treasuror should also be "up to
the minute" by default - if the report is filling in lots of little
transactions it's relatively easy to be "up-to-the minute" and there's
nothing in currency rules keyed to the start of a week.  But now I'm
wondering: maybe for gameplay, it *would* be more interesting (and a
change) to be more turn-based as in "here's the state at the beginning of
the turn (i.e. the start of the week)."  And if Cards/products get spread
across multiple offices (as is being discussed) it's probably good to have
a sync point to track transmutations etc.

-G.

DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] let's just match the promotor's reality shall we

[James Cook via agora-discussion]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 15:52, Kerim Aydin via agora-business
 wrote:
> [This confuses everyone regularly, except Aris.  Let's just make it clear]
>
> I submit the following proposal "no backdating needed", AI-3:
>
> 
>
> Amend Rule 1607 (Distribution) by replacing:
>   The Promotor's report includes a list of all proposals in the
>   Proposal Pool
> with:
>   The Promotor's report includes a list of all proposals that were
>   in the Proposal Pool at the beginning of the current Agoran week
>
> 

Should we do it with other reports too? This would help us get
complete snapshots. If we really wanted to, we could even split asset
tracking between Dealor/Treasuror as mentioned in the other thread and
still have snapshots.

Dunno how much complete snapshots matter outside of asset tracking.

- Falsifian

Re: DIS: [Promotor] Draft

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 11:46 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
>
> On 6/21/2020 8:33 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/21/20 2:16 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> Here's my draft report. It's been a completely exhausting day in a
>>> busy week, so the chance of errors here are higher than normal.
>> That's alright! You certainly have one of the hardest jobs available here.
>>
>>
>>> -Aris
>>> ---
>>> I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
>>> Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
>>> pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
>>> quorum is 8, the voting method is AI-majority, and the valid
>>> options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are
>>> conditional votes).
>>
>> This is missing talismans ([0], pended at [1]), fee-based methods ([1],
>> certified by R. Lee), and the black ribbon patch ([2], certified by me).
> I'm assuming e's still cutting off the report at the beginning of the
> current week (beginning of June 15).  Backdating is a minor annoyance at
> the beginning of the week, a bit bigger of one at the end
>

Oh, you're right : thonk:.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Promotor] Draft

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/2020 8:33 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/21/20 2:16 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
>> Here's my draft report. It's been a completely exhausting day in a
>> busy week, so the chance of errors here are higher than normal.
> 
> That's alright! You certainly have one of the hardest jobs available here.
> 
> 
>>
>> -Aris
>> ---
>> I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
>> Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
>> pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
>> quorum is 8, the voting method is AI-majority, and the valid
>> options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are
>> conditional votes).
> 
> 
> This is missing talismans ([0], pended at [1]), fee-based methods ([1],
> certified by R. Lee), and the black ribbon patch ([2], certified by me).

I'm assuming e's still cutting off the report at the beginning of the
current week (beginning of June 15).  Backdating is a minor annoyance at
the beginning of the week, a bit bigger of one at the end

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/20/2020 11:32 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:25 PM Rebecca wrote:
>>
>> Welcome! My advice is just do stuff when you feel like it, no need to read
>> every message, rule or CFJ
> 
> I on the other hand would advise reading all of the rules and
> messages. Reading all of the CFJs... I'm not sure if that's humanly
> possible? But I read the FLR before I registered, which put me in a
> pretty good position as a player. Message traffic is... a lot higher
> now than it was when I joined.

I think a key point for new players is you don't *have* to read everything
(or even a whole lot), you won't really "screw up" if you don't know
something, you can learn by watching, choosing what to watch, or reading
in detail - all works.  Simple starting point:

- The "round" we just started is pretty much described in Rules 2620 and
2621.

- You were just given one of each card described in Rule 2620, as a
welcome package (Rule 2499).

- Trade cards with people, collect sets, make products, and win!  (as per
those rules).

- Everybody's cards and products (updated weekly) can be found here:
https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/reports/weekly/fresh.txt

Re: DIS: [Promotor] Draft

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/21/20 2:16 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> Here's my draft report. It's been a completely exhausting day in a
> busy week, so the chance of errors here are higher than normal.

That's alright! You certainly have one of the hardest jobs available here.


>
> -Aris
> ---
> I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
> Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
> pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
> quorum is 8, the voting method is AI-majority, and the valid
> options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are
> conditional votes).


This is missing talismans ([0], pended at [1]), fee-based methods ([1],
certified by R. Lee), and the black ribbon patch ([2], certified by me).


[0]:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043422.html

[1]:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043441.html

[2]:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043456.html

[3]:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2020-June/043457.html

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: A logo for Agora

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

If you are referring to the ones that Jason noticed had been omitted, then yes; 
otherwise, I’ll need more information.

> On Jun 20, 2020, at 23:44, Rebecca via agora-discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> PSS this is kind of unrelated (but related to herald) but your last report
> omitted some hard labor titles, the next one will have them right?
> 
>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 12:54 PM Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
>> agora-discussion  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve got the rules coming although there are a lot of edge cases. I should
>> have a draft in the next week.
>> 
>>> On Jun 20, 2020, at 21:20, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion <
>> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 6/20/2020 6:03 PM, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
 Free Tournament? Free Tournament? Free Tournament?
>>> 
>>> Suggestion for tournament rule:  Anyone can submit a design wholly
>>> described in text.  Anyone else can try to draw that based on the text.
>>> co-winners for the best pair, judged both for overall good looks but also
>>> match between text and drawing (by popular vote).  secret collaboration
>>> strongly discouraged.
>>> 
>>> Publius, I don't know how the Diplonomic is coming along, but this (or a
>>> variation) is a simple tournament that goes along with the "birthday"
>> theme.
>>> 
>>> -G.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

interesting, i think the moral of the story is that reading is for suckers

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 4:33 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:25 PM Rebecca via agora-discussion
>  wrote:
> >
> > Welcome! My advice is just do stuff when you feel like it, no need to
> read
> > every message, rule or CFJ
>
> I on the other hand would advise reading all of the rules and
> messages. Reading all of the CFJs... I'm not sure if that's humanly
> possible? But I read the FLR before I registered, which put me in a
> pretty good position as a player. Message traffic is... a lot higher
> now than it was when I joined.
>
> I think the moral of the story here is that there are several valid
> approaches, and which one you should take depends on your inclinations
> and circumstances.
>
> -Aris
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:25 PM Rebecca via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
> Welcome! My advice is just do stuff when you feel like it, no need to read
> every message, rule or CFJ

I on the other hand would advise reading all of the rules and
messages. Reading all of the CFJs... I'm not sure if that's humanly
possible? But I read the FLR before I registered, which put me in a
pretty good position as a player. Message traffic is... a lot higher
now than it was when I joined.

I think the moral of the story here is that there are several valid
approaches, and which one you should take depends on your inclinations
and circumstances.

-Aris

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

Welcome! My advice is just do stuff when you feel like it, no need to read
every message, rule or CFJ

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 4:14 PM Zyborg Mao via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> I, Zyborg, an Unregistered Person, wish to Register as a Player.
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

Welcome to Agora! Always great to see new players. Our ruleset is a bit
hard to get a handle on, so please don't be afraid to ask questions. We
even (as of today) have a Discord server where you can ask questions in a
more casual environment if that's your style. I hope you enjoy your time
here!

https://discord.gg/UGxm3v

--
Trigon

currently on a phone

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 00:14 Zyborg Mao via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> I, Zyborg, an Unregistered Person, wish to Register as a Player.
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration [attn. Treasuror]

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:14 PM Zyborg Mao via agora-business
 wrote:
>
> I, Zyborg, an Unregistered Person, wish to Register as a Player.

Welcome to Agora, Zyborg! I cause Zyborg to receive a Welcome Package.

-Aris

DIS: [Promotor] Draft

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

Here's my draft report. It's been a completely exhausting day in a
busy week, so the chance of errors here are higher than normal.

-Aris
---
I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
quorum is 8, the voting method is AI-majority, and the valid
options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are
conditional votes).

ID Author(s)AITitle
---
8442#  G.   1.0   Barrel Barrel Badger Barrel
8443#  G.   2.0   Term Limit
8444#  Aris 2.0   Sedate Officiation
8445*  Aris 3.0   Easier Retitling
8446#  G., nch  1.0   Victory Auctions
8447#  CB   1.0   Rule Infancy
8448*  Aris, Alexis, Falsifian  3.0   Populist Administration
8449#  Aris, [1]1.5   Simpler Heraldry
8450#  G.   1.7   CFJ extensions
8451#  CB   1.0   HUMBLE AGORAN FARMER WINS THE GAME
8452#  P.S.S., Jason, Trigon1.0   Indictment Fixes
8453#  G.   1.0   win indirection
8454#  G., Jason, P.S.S.2.0   Judicial non-person fixes
8455#  G., Jason2.0   old judgements are good judgements
8456#  G.   1.0   namings
8457f  R. Lee, P.S.S.   2.0   CHILL BRO

[1] Alexis, Jason, P.S.S.

Proposal pool report: At the beginning of this Agoran week, the proposal pool
contained the proposals listed above.

Legend: * : Democratic proposal.
# : Ordinary proposal, unset chamber.
e : Economy ministry proposal.
f : Efficiency ministry proposal.
j : Justice ministry proposal.
l : Legislation ministry proposal.
p : Participation ministry proposal.


The full text of the aforementioned proposal(s) is included below. Where
the information shown below differs from the information shown above,
the information shown above shall control.

//
ID: 8442
Title: Barrel Barrel Badger Barrel
Adoption index: 1.0
Author: G.
Co-authors:


Create a power-1 rule, "The General Store", with the following text:

  Barrels are a currency tracked by the Coopor (an office) in eir
  monthly report. A player CAN Corner the Market by paying a fee of
  100 barrels.  When a player corners the market, e wins the game.

  A bargain is a specification consisting of a title, a payout (a
  number of barrels between 1 and 10), and a tender (a list of 6 or
  more rules-defined card types; a type may be repeated, with each
  repeat being a separate element on the list).

  A player CAN cash out a specified bargain that's "on the barrel",
  by announcement, provided that, in the same message, e paid cards
  (possibly spread over multiple sets) to successfully earn rules-
  defined products, and those cards match all of the cards types in
  that bargain's tender.  The payment of a particular card instance
  can only match a single tender element for the single cashing out
  of a bargain.

  When a player cashes out a bargain on the barrel, e earns the
  payout for that bargain.

  The Coopor CANNOT cash out a specific bargain in the 14 days
  after putting that bargain on the barrel.


Create a power-1 rule, "Bargains on the Barrel", with the
following text:

  If there are fewer than four bargains on the barrel, the Coopor
  CAN put a bargain on the barrel with notice.  If there are fewer
  than eight bargains on the barrel, the Coopor CAN put a bargain on
  the barrel with 3 support.

  The Coopor CAN take a bargain off the barrel without N objections,
  where N is the number of months, rounded up, since that bargain
  was last placed on the barrel.  Within 14 days after winning an
  election for Coopor, the Coopor CAN take any bargain off the
  barrel with notice.

  The Coopor's monthly report includes a list of all bargains on the
  barrel.  E SHOULD publish such a list whenever e adds or removes a
  bargain from the barrel.


There are no bargains on the barrel.

G. is hereby made Coopor.

An election for Coopor is hereby initiated.

//
ID: 8443
Title: Term Limit
Adoption index: 2.0
Author: G.
Co-authors:


Amend Rule 2423 (First Among Equals) by appending the following
paragraph:

Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, a player CANNOT become a
candidate in an election for Prime Minister if e has held the office
for 60 or more of the 90 days prior to the election's initiation.

//
ID: 8444
Title: Sedate Officiation
Adoption index: 2.0
Author: Aris
Co-authors:


[In case the public wants a change but prefers more conventional
vocabulary.]

Amend each of Rule 1023