Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Steve Edwards]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.


I use both interfaces.

I would hate to see either go away. They serve different purposes for me.

The big draw for email is 'it comes to me' and it's quick to browse. I can 
'funnel' (procmail) all of the Asterisk mailing lists into a single folder 
and browse it all in a few seconds. I use 'alpine' as my MUA, so it's all 
just a couple of keystrokes and I'm done. It does not disrupt my 'shell 
heavy' workflow.


I like the web interface, particularly if I'm quoting or formatting a 
snippet as 'code.'


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-
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Niklas Larsson]

Den 2023-12-04 kl. 13:00, skrev Joshua C. Colp:

Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk 
community forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, 
has also gotten more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, 
etc.. To continue the mailing lists would require a huge time and 
resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.



If you have any input, now is the time to state it.



Would really prefer mail-list for the asterisk-dev, there is nothing 
that works so well and gives me the least work - no need to poll a forum 
etc. It just arrives in my email client where ever I am.


So my 5 öre would be to not change it the kind of transport. Go with 
groups.io or something like that, if you don't want to maintain it yourself.


/niklas


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Andreas Wehrmann]

Am 04.12.2023 um 13:52 schrieb aster...@phreaknet.org:
I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists 
are essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of 
non-ephemeral development discussion happens either on IRC or here on 
the asterisk-dev list - just check the archives to see that it's still 
active. Most of us are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be 
bothered to use them. You can go and see now that "Development" on the 
community forums is basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so 
trying to push that on everyone is a terrible idea.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major 
loss. Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but 
far more *quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being 
on a mailing list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. 
More serious questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. 
The community forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who 
can't tell a hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade 
through a bunch of low-quality posts to find the few that might have 
some use. Thus, getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant 
drop in the average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if 
the -users list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some 
form.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and 
no, that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.


GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately 
I think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells 
and whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper 
tool they try to emulate.


I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the 
right job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else 
do it. I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. 
Contrary to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, 
have not "moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I 
get hundreds of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.


Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google 
Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have 
now migrated to groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it 
compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now 
free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. 
As the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, 
I've been pretty happy with it.


I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list 
manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on 
mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's 
completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means 
people here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and 
I'm sure Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't 
want to run mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price 
to keep developers happy.


NA


I'm signing this as well.
I work with several FOSS projects and basically all have something in 
common: A mailing list.
Now, if different projects get the idea of migrating to different 
forums, things become really impractical.
Right now; I can open my e-mail client and immediately search 
for/through discussions, no need to fire up the browser and log into 
some forum.

And this works cross project (for the most part).

If I want to take part in a discussion, I just select the mail and press 
"reply list"; easy as that.
Internet searches, ML archives: saved me a couple of times, sometimes, 
the messages that helped were older than a decade.


I think keeping a pretty "low tech" way for this (like mailing lists) is 
important, especially for a project as big and important as Asterisk
because it makes it more accessible and more likely "to be around" in 
the future; there is less potential for "breakage".



Best Regards,
Andreas


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Michael Maier]

Hello!

I can fully agree with what you have written. 100%

Thanks
Michael


On 04.12.23 at 13:52 aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:
I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are essential 
for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral development 
discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev list - just check the 
archives to see that it's still active. Most of us are not on the community forums 
and/or couldn't be bothered to use them. You can go and see now that "Development" 
on the community forums is basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so 
trying to push that on everyone is a terrible idea.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss. Far more 
*discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more *quality* 
discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing list seems to be a 
natural weedout for junk questions. More serious questions still seem to come 
through on the mailing list. The community forums is far fuller of useless 
postings from people who can't tell a hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants 
to wade through a bunch of low-quality posts to find the few that might have some 
use. Thus, getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the 
average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users list is 
dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no, that's not 
a proper replacement for a mailing list.


GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I think 
that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and whistles but most 
of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool they try to emulate.


I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right job. If 
you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it. I do a combination 
of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary to the opinions of some, 
people, especially technical people, have not "moved on" from mailing lists; they 
are widely used, and I get hundreds of emails a day from them that I have a good 
workflow for.


Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google Groups, 
mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have now migrated to 
groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it compared to other platforms. 
It used to be completely free; it's now free for lists under 100 members, or ones 
that are grandfathered in. As the maintainer of several lists there and a member 
of many more, I've been pretty happy with it.


I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list manually opt 
into it, since there are probably a lot of people on mailman that aren't active 
anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's completely free anyways. If more than 100 
people join, that means people here *really* like mailing lists and find value in 
them, and I'm sure Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't 
want to run mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep 
developers happy.


NA

On 12/4/2023 7:28 AM, Jaco Kroon wrote:


Hi,

My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.

Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also means that 
stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.


github discussions are better than forums at least.

May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML? Perhaps I might be 
able to assist ...


Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:


Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has diminished, 
with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community forums[1]. The 
state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten more complicated - 
emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the mailing lists would 
require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective February 
1st, 2024.


This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; specifically, 
where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few options:


1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ already 
that can be used.

2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub project.
3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which is 
where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has been set 
up and enabled already.


If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us 

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:40 AM Dovid Bender  wrote:

> Josh,
>
> IMHO the list has dwindled as most issues are covered. When the project
> first started there were a lot of questions that are now available on
> Google. However every so often things come up where the list is very
> helpful. Also the forums seem to attract a different crowd I feel like the
> people on this list may not be the same ones visiting the forum. I am more
> than happy to give of my time to help setup fresh boxes, help admin the
> email list etc. We also have some 2nd gen boxes (R630 and R730 boxes) that
> we would give for the cause.
>

I have noted your opinion and offer.

-- 
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Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Dovid Bender]

Josh,

IMHO the list has dwindled as most issues are covered. When the project
first started there were a lot of questions that are now available on
Google. However every so often things come up where the list is very
helpful. Also the forums seem to attract a different crowd I feel like the
people on this list may not be the same ones visiting the forum. I am more
than happy to give of my time to help setup fresh boxes, help admin the
email list etc. We also have some 2nd gen boxes (R630 and R730 boxes) that
we would give for the cause.


On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:00 AM Joshua C. Colp  wrote:

> Greetings all,
>
> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
> minimal use.
>
> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
> February 1st, 2024.
>
> This means the following:
>
> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>
> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
> options:
>
> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
> already that can be used.
> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
> project.
> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>
> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which
> is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has
> been set up and enabled already.
>
> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
> --
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> asterisk-dev mailing list
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:31 AM Olle E. Johansson  wrote:

>
>
> On 4 Dec 2023, at 13:38, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
>
> The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.
>
> …and the archives for everything is still around.
>
> Mail is boring but very very long-term stable.
>
> Forums are cool, sexy and keeps changing so we loose history because the
> cost of mirgrating old postings and comments is way too high and the
> marketing department that runs the forums seldom understand the need to
> keep it persistent…
>
>
Did you mean for new content? And are you referring to just the
asterisk-dev mailing list?

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:31 AM Olle E. Johansson  wrote:

>
>
> On 4 Dec 2023, at 13:38, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
>
> The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.
>
> …and the archives for everything is still around.
>

As mentioned in my original email, the list archives will remain available.
They will be in the same format they are now, same location, same look.


>
> Mail is boring but very very long-term stable.
>
> Forums are cool, sexy and keeps changing so we loose history because the
> cost of mirgrating old postings and comments is way too high and the
> marketing department that runs the forums seldom understand the need to
> keep it persistent…
>
> I would encourage keeping a development mailing list.
>
> /O
>
>
> For self hosting they would need to be completely redone on fresh
> infrastructure, fresh distro, fresh software, and hopefully things would
> possibly import. They'd also need to be updated to conform to current
> standards on sending so that that they don't appear as spam as often. (For
> me 25% of emails from the lists go to my spam currently and require manual
> involvement)
>
> For hosted we'd need support for over 2500+ subscribers for the -dev list
> if it were to be imported. For commercial entities we could possibly
> import, but for something like someone doing that work and effort and
> hosting I would not be comfortable providing such information, and people
> would need to sign up fresh again. It would also not be something I would
> be willing to spend money on due to the low use of the lists.
>
> Past that - can you explain why it's a bad idea? I've looked at the
> interactions for the past few years and while some have existed, they've
> been minimal over all.
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:28 AM Jaco Kroon  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.
>>
>> Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also
>> means that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.
>>
>> github discussions are better than forums at least.
>>
>> May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML?  Perhaps I
>> might be able to assist ...
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Jaco
>>
>> On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>>
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
>> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
>> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
>> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
>> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
>> minimal use.
>>
>> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
>> February 1st, 2024.
>>
>> This means the following:
>>
>> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
>> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>>
>> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
>> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
>> options:
>>
>> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
>> already that can be used.
>> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
>> project.
>> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>>
>> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project,
>> which is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This
>> has been set up and enabled already.
>>
>> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Joshua C. Colp
>> Asterisk Project Lead
>> Sangoma Technologies
>> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
> --
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>
>
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Olle E. Johansson]

> On 4 Dec 2023, at 13:38, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
> 
> The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.
…and the archives for everything is still around.

Mail is boring but very very long-term stable.

Forums are cool, sexy and keeps changing so we loose history because the cost 
of mirgrating old postings and comments is way too high and the marketing 
department that runs the forums seldom understand the need to keep it 
persistent…

I would encourage keeping a development mailing list.

/O
> 
> For self hosting they would need to be completely redone on fresh 
> infrastructure, fresh distro, fresh software, and hopefully things would 
> possibly import. They'd also need to be updated to conform to current 
> standards on sending so that that they don't appear as spam as often. (For me 
> 25% of emails from the lists go to my spam currently and require manual 
> involvement)
> 
> For hosted we'd need support for over 2500+ subscribers for the -dev list if 
> it were to be imported. For commercial entities we could possibly import, but 
> for something like someone doing that work and effort and hosting I would not 
> be comfortable providing such information, and people would need to sign up 
> fresh again. It would also not be something I would be willing to spend money 
> on due to the low use of the lists.
> 
> Past that - can you explain why it's a bad idea? I've looked at the 
> interactions for the past few years and while some have existed, they've been 
> minimal over all.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:28 AM Jaco Kroon  > wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.
>> 
>> Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also means 
>> that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.
>> 
>> github discussions are better than forums at least.
>> 
>> May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML?  Perhaps I might 
>> be able to assist ...
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> Jaco
>> 
>> On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>> 
>>> Greetings all,
>>> 
>>> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
>>> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community 
>>> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten 
>>> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the 
>>> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for 
>>> minimal use.
>>> 
>>> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
>>> February 1st, 2024.
>>> 
>>> This means the following:
>>> 
>>> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
>>> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>>> 
>>> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; 
>>> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few 
>>> options:
>>> 
>>> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ 
>>> already that can be used.
>>> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub 
>>> project.
>>> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which 
>>> is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has 
>>> been set up and enabled already.
>>> 
>>> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Joshua C. Colp
>>> Asterisk Project Lead
>>> Sangoma Technologies
>>> Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
>>> www.asterisk.org 
>>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
> www.asterisk.org 
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>   http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev

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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:24 AM Fred Posner  wrote:

>
> > On Dec 4, 2023, at 9:19 AM, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
> >
> > No changes have actually occurred as of yet, aside from me sending an
> email, and I also gave 2 months of notice on purpose to allow people to
> think and respond.
> >
>
> In your original email you wrote:
>
> > To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
> February 1st, 2024.
>
>
> This absolutely gives the impression of a decision/change being made.
>

Okay, I acknowledge that. In my mind with decisions until things are
actually enacted there is always the chance or possibility of change. I
will take that into consideration for the future.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Henning Westerholt]

Hello,

thanks for starting the discussion.

I am obviously not a large contributor to asterisk. Nevertheless, I would also 
prefer to stay with a real hosted mailing list for the development 
communication instead of moving to a web forum or another more closed web 
service like github.

Cheers,

Henning


--
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Kamailio services – https://gilawa.com


From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of Joshua 
C. Colp
Sent: Montag, 4. Dezember 2023 13:00
To: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has diminished, 
with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community forums[1]. The 
state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten more complicated - 
emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the mailing lists would 
require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal use.

To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective February 
1st, 2024.

This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; specifically, 
where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few options:

1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ already 
that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub project.
3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which is 
where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has been set 
up and enabled already.

If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and 
www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Fred Posner]

> On Dec 4, 2023, at 9:19 AM, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
> 
> No changes have actually occurred as of yet, aside from me sending an email, 
> and I also gave 2 months of notice on purpose to allow people to think and 
> respond.
> 

In your original email you wrote:

> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
> February 1st, 2024.


This absolutely gives the impression of a decision/change being made.


Regards,

Fred Posner
p: +1 (352) 664-3733



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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 9:27 AM Fred Posner  wrote:

> Looks like the majority of responses are negative.
>
> I’m also disappointed in this decision/
>
> > Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
> minimal use.
>
> I don’t want to get on a “which is better” argument, but will add that
> email is by far the most accessible method of communication available to a
> worldwide audience of different means, languages, and abilities. It is not
> prohibitive by those with limited sight, easily translated, easily indexed
> for searching, and simple for those on even the most basic non-gui systems.
>
> Of course there are also other benefits that I think would only result in
> wasted typing as it seems that this decision done.
>
> I will say the disappointment comes from making such a change without even
> taking the minimal effort of surveying the user/list base/community for
> what methods would be most desired.
>

No changes have actually occurred as of yet, aside from me sending an
email, and I also gave 2 months of notice on purpose to allow people to
think and respond.


>
> The complicated argument, in my opinion, is a bit exaggerated and the
> issues have been handled by so many other groups, that assistance can
> surely be provided if the project having trouble.
>

Yes, it is possible. People have offered alternative suggestions, and I
have made note of them.


>
> To me personally, this shows how important it is to strengthen the
> community as a whole, to check the temperature now and then, and to
> consider feedback/audience/goal prior to making top down decisions.
>
> I remain disappointed; although to be honest, at this point, I’m not
> surprised by these decisions.
>

If you wish to be disappointed, then do so in me - as this is all my work.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Fred Posner]

Looks like the majority of responses are negative.

I’m also disappointed in this decision/

> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community 
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten 
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the 
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal 
> use.

I don’t want to get on a “which is better” argument, but will add that email is 
by far the most accessible method of communication available to a worldwide 
audience of different means, languages, and abilities. It is not prohibitive by 
those with limited sight, easily translated, easily indexed for searching, and 
simple for those on even the most basic non-gui systems.

Of course there are also other benefits that I think would only result in 
wasted typing as it seems that this decision done.

I will say the disappointment comes from making such a change without even 
taking the minimal effort of surveying the user/list base/community for what 
methods would be most desired.

The complicated argument, in my opinion, is a bit exaggerated and the issues 
have been handled by so many other groups, that assistance can surely be 
provided if the project having trouble.

To me personally, this shows how important it is to strengthen the community as 
a whole, to check the temperature now and then, and to consider 
feedback/audience/goal prior to making top down decisions.

I remain disappointed; although to be honest, at this point, I’m not surprised 
by these decisions.


Regards,

Fred Posner
p: +1 (352) 664-3733



> On Dec 4, 2023, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Aquilina  wrote:
> 
> I would like to add my 2 cents here as a long tim follower of this list.
> 
> I am aware of another mailing platform for such mailing lists. 
> 
> https://www.sympa.community/
> 
> Would something like this be considered as a replacement from what I am 
> assuming this list is based on which is mailman?
> 
> Also if you do decide to upgrade the infra and mailing list. I would highly 
> recommend it is done internally at sangoma given then there are alot of GDPR 
> and other privacy concerns that woudl arise.
> 
> Regards,
> Jonathan Aquilina
>  From: asterisk-dev  on behalf of 
> Joshua C. Colp 
> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 14:02
> To: aster...@phreaknet.org 
> Cc: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future
>  On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:52 AM  wrote:
> I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are 
> essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral 
> development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev 
> list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us 
> are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them. 
> You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is 
> basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that 
> on everyone is a terrible idea.
> 
> The "Development" category was done on a whim and hasn't really been 
> advertised or mentioned a huge amount. I presented it merely as an option, as 
> it was present.
>  
> Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss. 
> Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more 
> *quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing 
> list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious 
> questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community 
> forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a 
> hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of 
> low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus, 
> getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the 
> average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users 
> list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.
> 
> To be quite blunt, the quality is better on asterisk-users because few 
> actually use it. In the earlier days the quality wasn't as good when it was 
> actually used more. Even then, the quality still varies on the asterisk-users 
> list.
>  
> I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no, 
> that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.
> 
> GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I 
> think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and 
> whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool 
> they try to emulate.
> 
> I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right 
> job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it. 
> I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary 
> to the opinions of 

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Jonathan Aquilina]

I would like to add my 2 cents here as a long tim follower of this list.

I am aware of another mailing platform for such mailing lists.

https://www.sympa.community/

Would something like this be considered as a replacement from what I am 
assuming this list is based on which is mailman?

Also if you do decide to upgrade the infra and mailing list. I would highly 
recommend it is done internally at sangoma given then there are alot of GDPR 
and other privacy concerns that woudl arise.


Regards,

Jonathan Aquilina




From: asterisk-dev  on behalf of Joshua 
C. Colp 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 14:02
To: aster...@phreaknet.org 
Cc: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:52 AM 
mailto:aster...@phreaknet.org>> wrote:
I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are
essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral
development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev
list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us
are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them.
You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is
basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that
on everyone is a terrible idea.

The "Development" category was done on a whim and hasn't really been advertised 
or mentioned a huge amount. I presented it merely as an option, as it was 
present.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss.
Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more
*quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing
list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious
questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community
forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a
hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of
low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus,
getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the
average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users
list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.

To be quite blunt, the quality is better on asterisk-users because few actually 
use it. In the earlier days the quality wasn't as good when it was actually 
used more. Even then, the quality still varies on the asterisk-users list.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no,
that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.

GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I
think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and
whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool
they try to emulate.

I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right
job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it.
I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary
to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, have not
"moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I get hundreds
of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.

Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google
Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have
now migrated to 
groups.io
 and are generally highly satisfied with it
compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now
free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. As
the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, I've
been pretty happy with it.

I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list
manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on
mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's
completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means people
here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and I'm sure
Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't want to run
mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep
developers happy.

Your opinion has been noted.

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at 
https://link.edgepilot.com/s/1bcb522c/0XLwQyf7QE6vbZFOkxlodA?u=http://www.sangoma.com/
 and 
https://link.edgepilot.com/s/9ea5ac89/mzGwUzF2PkiBwMdnYDrV4g?u=http://www.asterisk.org/


Links contained in this email have been replaced. If you click on a link in the 
email above, the link will be analyzed for known threats. If a known threat is 
found, you will not be able to proceed to the destination. If suspicious 
content is detected, you will see a warning.
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-- 

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:52 AM  wrote:

> I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are
> essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral
> development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev
> list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us
> are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them.
> You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is
> basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that
> on everyone is a terrible idea.
>

The "Development" category was done on a whim and hasn't really been
advertised or mentioned a huge amount. I presented it merely as an option,
as it was present.


>
> Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss.
> Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more
> *quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing
> list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious
> questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community
> forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a
> hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of
> low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus,
> getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the
> average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users
> list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.
>

To be quite blunt, the quality is better on asterisk-users because few
actually use it. In the earlier days the quality wasn't as good when it was
actually used more. Even then, the quality still varies on the
asterisk-users list.


>
> I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no,
> that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.
>
> GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I
> think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and
> whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool
> they try to emulate.
>
> I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right
> job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it.
> I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary
> to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, have not
> "moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I get hundreds
> of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.
>
> Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google
> Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have
> now migrated to groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it
> compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now
> free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. As
> the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, I've
> been pretty happy with it.
>
> I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list
> manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on
> mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's
> completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means people
> here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and I'm sure
> Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't want to run
> mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep
> developers happy.
>

Your opinion has been noted.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[asterisk]

I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are 
essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral 
development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev 
list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us 
are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them. 
You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is 
basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that 
on everyone is a terrible idea.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss. 
Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more 
*quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing 
list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious 
questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community 
forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a 
hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of 
low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus, 
getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the 
average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users 
list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no, 
that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.


GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I 
think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and 
whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool 
they try to emulate.


I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right 
job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it. 
I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary 
to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, have not 
"moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I get hundreds 
of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.


Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google 
Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have 
now migrated to groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it 
compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now 
free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. As 
the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, I've 
been pretty happy with it.


I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list 
manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on 
mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's 
completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means people 
here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and I'm sure 
Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't want to run 
mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep 
developers happy.


NA

On 12/4/2023 7:28 AM, Jaco Kroon wrote:


Hi,

My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.

Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also 
means that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.


github discussions are better than forums at least.

May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML? Perhaps I 
might be able to assist ...


Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:


Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk 
community forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, 
has also gotten more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, 
etc.. To continue the mailing lists would require a huge time and 
resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.


This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; 
specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a 
few options:


1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ 
already that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub 
project.

3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, 
which is where everything development-related happens now regardless. 
This has been set up and enabled already.


If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 








--

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.

For self hosting they would need to be completely redone on fresh
infrastructure, fresh distro, fresh software, and hopefully things would
possibly import. They'd also need to be updated to conform to current
standards on sending so that that they don't appear as spam as often. (For
me 25% of emails from the lists go to my spam currently and require manual
involvement)

For hosted we'd need support for over 2500+ subscribers for the -dev list
if it were to be imported. For commercial entities we could possibly
import, but for something like someone doing that work and effort and
hosting I would not be comfortable providing such information, and people
would need to sign up fresh again. It would also not be something I would
be willing to spend money on due to the low use of the lists.

Past that - can you explain why it's a bad idea? I've looked at the
interactions for the past few years and while some have existed, they've
been minimal over all.

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:28 AM Jaco Kroon  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.
>
> Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also means
> that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.
>
> github discussions are better than forums at least.
>
> May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML?  Perhaps I
> might be able to assist ...
>
> Kind regards,
> Jaco
>
> On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
> minimal use.
>
> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
> February 1st, 2024.
>
> This means the following:
>
> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>
> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
> options:
>
> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
> already that can be used.
> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
> project.
> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>
> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which
> is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has
> been set up and enabled already.
>
> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
>
>

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Jaco Kroon]

Hi,

My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.

Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also 
means that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.


github discussions are better than forums at least.

May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML? Perhaps I 
might be able to assist ...


Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:


Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk 
community forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, 
has also gotten more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, 
etc.. To continue the mailing lists would require a huge time and 
resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.


This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; 
specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few 
options:


1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ 
already that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub 
project.

3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, 
which is where everything development-related happens now regardless. 
This has been set up and enabled already.


If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 
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[asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

[Joshua C. Colp]

Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
minimal use.

To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
February 1st, 2024.

This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
options:

1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
already that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
project.
3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which
is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has
been set up and enabled already.

If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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