Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? @15I think you are massively misunderstanding my position. There is no point in any of my posts in this thread that I said the backend shouldn't be unit tested. The backend was extensively unit tested. But unit tests only do so much.It isn't possible to write a unit test for a python backend as far as I know that would check that the output data conforms to the specification expected by a typescript backend, because on the backend the scheme is going to be defined in some python way and for the frontend it is going to be defined in terms of typescript, so there are two schemas defined either way. So, whenever you change the schema in one place you need to change it in the other place and then manually check that they actually match. For this you would need some sort of integration test or just do it manually.The reason that the frontend defensively verifies that the data it is receiving from an endpoint is what it expects at the point of receiving is because it is much easier to find bugs at this point instead of just trusting the data to be the shape we'd expect and then have it cause some much harder to debug problem somewhere deeper in the system. Writing a schema checker using a strong type system and a decent library is as little effort as defining the schema itself, so there is virtually no added dev effort, but in practise it has proven to be very productive.Also about typescript not being as robust as people would say. , alas, most programmers don't seem to know how to use it affectively. Most articles where typescript is used are littered with bad practises, like type assertions, and are just total garbage. I think this might just be because of people coming from js and not knowing how to use a strong type system to make their program more robust with it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/580979/#p580979 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? @14Yeah, but my point is that if you're not productive with the tools you're using, you're probably using them wrong.All that effort you put into making the frontend verify data from the backend could have just been put into unit testing the backend. Even if you had used Typescript for the backend, you'd still have to unit test it. Typescript is not nearly so bulletproof as the proponents would like you to believe.What you seem to be saying, basically, is "we used Flask for a Django problem, then instead of unit testing our backend we decided to make the frontend verify that the backend data is bug-free, therefore we should use Typescript". I hate to say it, but whoever is in charge of that made some really bad decisions. You should never, ever, ever be in a position where the frontend is responsible for checking the backend's output. And whether that's Python or otherwise doesn't matter. Yes, Typescript can help. Sure. But the fact that you're saying that you feel like Typescript is necessary and that you can't trust your backend and need the frontend to try to be defensive and catch bugs, that's because mistakes were made.And if your org isn't devoting time to testing, that's yet another mistake: you can't be confident that your stuff works without it. Plus, you don't need integration tests to find out if the backend's responses are of the right shape. That's just run-of-the-mill unit testing. But being as you apparently don't have any, that would take weeks to fix, so you're probably stuck. However if you did, you could change basically anything and hit a button and know if it worked in 15 minutes at most, rather than what I presume is a manual process where devs have to be sure to remember to hand-test everything.Yeah, Typescript might help. But wherever you are, you have much bigger problems than whether or not the frontend and backend can share some type definitions, and even with Typescript you'd still be in this bad place where the frontend has to be defensive because no one bothered to make a reliable backend and, well, better you than me.I don't care if you advocate Typescript. It has its place, even if that place is nowhere near anything I have control over. But you're advocating Typescript because whoever designed whatever you're working on dropped the ball, unless you've got some really interesting justifications for why you'd adopt flask for a big web backend and then not unit test the thing. You probably have security problems from this, even, since I'd bet you reimplemented authentication as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/580669/#p580669 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? @13 I agree about flask. next time I would just go with django, although it wasn't me ultimately that made the flask choice.There might be some misunderstanding by what I meant by encoders/decoders, which I should have maybe qualified more. essentially on the frontend, I used a library to create a decoder for my typescript types that would verify that the incoming json was of the specified type, so it was basically a schema checker. the reason that was valuable was that whether incoming data is what is expected by the frontend is verified at the boundary of the application and if there is an error then it is handled right then and there. further it is used to make sure that the code is typesafe and there aren't any surprises somewhere deeper in the app logic when the app would try to access a field that isn't there.This was actually massively valuable in practice and allowed us to catch bugs much faster, since these errors became trivial to diagnose.since the backend was python, it couldn't be checked at compile time that the json it was sending to the frontend conformed to the typescript type definition. instead that had to be verified through manual testing, by using the app and seeing if there are any decoding errors from the frontend typescript decoders.I was thinking of setting up some integration tests to do this automatically, but it was a pretty non-trivial task, so we put up with manual testing instead.if backend was also typescript, it could be verified at compile time that the outbound and inbound data was conformant and would have altogether removed the need for that sort of testing URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/580609/#p580609 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? @11As someone who has had the opportunity to do that, it doesn't actually work out. You end up sharing basically zero code between them in practice. If you have that issue though, it's probably because someone made the backend API too complicated. Frontend decoding should really just be JSON.parse. If it needs more than that and you aren't using a tool, find a tool and use it, i.e. protobuf.Sounds to me like whatever/wherever you're working, someone saw JS and Python and went "let's use these like java" and in the process made everything more complicated than it needed to be. Something like DRF can handle backend encoding, something like OpenAPI can give you a reasonable client in any language, etc. If you want to do both in Node just to be able to share a Typescript definition file, you're probably thinking about the problem wrong, and if you're hand-writing encoders and decoders for a new project that you have full control over you're definitely thinking about the problem wrong.Also: Flask is part of your problem, there is a reason I always fight so hard to get people to use Django, Django can spin up a fully functional Rest API with everything you have ever wanted ever in a couple hours and you won't even be thinking about testing backend encoders or CRUD endpoints or anything like that, because it's just coded for you, turn it on and done. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/580455/#p580455 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? What is your server going to do?Python is famous for having great linguistic and machine learning libraries like NLTK or Tensorflow that you would probably need to analyze the legal documents and provide answers to questions users pose to a chatbot. This gets kind of advanced though, but if that's where you are headed, python gives you the best bang for your time.If you want to rapidly turn out apps without switching languages, Node is fantastic. You can get overwhelmed quickly though. I would not use Node for any major amount of processing. It's a little more verbose than python, and the standard library is terrible. There are a million ways to do something in _javascript_, and this really slows down learning and production.I would actually recommend Flask, as it will get you up and running with an easy to understand server quickly. When you're ready for working on your actual server, Django would probably be better, as it builds a lot of boilerplate for you, but it hides what's going on in the background, whereas Flask doesn't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/580379/#p580379 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? The main thing that makes me personally interested in node.js as a web server middleware is havin code sharing between the backend and frontend. I noticed the big value of havin this during the last major project I worked on, which had a python flask backend and typescript/js frontend. One of the major painpoints for me was writing the encoding/decoding for python and ts seperately and needing to constantly manually keep them in sync and testing them that they are compatible.Being able to write one type definition and encoder/decoder in one place and use it both in the backend and frontend would have been really nice, removing the need to keep two seperate pieces of code in sync and removing a bunch of testing that needed to be done.But this topic is likely a bit ahead of OP, so it is really just a personal side note. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579298/#p579298 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? @9That's interesting, but I think it's good to point out here that for new programmers, old and opinionated is better. Old because there'll be lots of resources, opinionated because there'll be less ways to make entirely bad choices. So I would have to say that for the purposes of this thread, that's probably not super relevant or useful.Also: if you're going to use one of the non-Django Python web things for the sake of performance, you just gave up what Django has to offer and might as well leave Python entirely and take the 2x to 10x additional performance increase along the way, so there's also that. But this thread isn't the appropriate place for that discussion. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579253/#p579253 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? Anyone look at Fastapi? Its kinda like Flask, though a lot more advanced. https://fastapi.tiangolo.com/Heard about that from a podcast... seems like an interesting library. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579233/#p579233 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? @7Node actually doesn't do so great at async high-performance networking either. Rust and Go beat it out, Python with gevent comes pretty close to it, Elixir/Erlang as you already mentioned, I think Java might actually also win though I've never checked on benchmarks,, C/C+ for the masochists...I'm trying not to be too detailed here because this is a thread for and by a new programmer. But when I say Node is the worst of all possible worlds: you don't get the ease of something like Django, you don't get the performance of something like Go, you are limited to one core in ways that even Python isn't, etc etc etc. It got momentum, it's not as bad as many technologies, but it's not actually good, just popular, and it's not good either if you don't happen to pick just the right set of packages to use.But to Diego, let me be clear that performance shouldn't be a consideration: the database should do the heavy lifting, whatever you write just asks the database to do things, so the language doesn't matter that much in terms of how fast it is. If you want quick results as a new programmer, Python with Django is pretty good. If you want something good for the resume, Node is amazingly popular (all be it for bad reasons, but it's livable, and gets you paid lots of money). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579219/#p579219 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? It's really what you intend to do with it that matters here, I think.Node's real thing is the asynchronous, non-blocking model that allows for a huge amount of concurrent connections essentially by default. I'd argue Elixir does this in a far better way, but then, that is also a far more non-standard language As for Ruby vs Python ...if you want to be explicit and have the framework do what you tell it to rather than what it thinks you told it, go Python Django. If you'd like magic based on (sometimes obscure) configuration conventions, go Ruby on Rails.Both can be gotten used to, but I honestly do have to caution that Rails apps, while they are great for rapidfire prototyping, are a major pain to debug at times because of the implicit way it does things for you. If you're not 100% proficient in Rails, super simple debugging can take WAY longer than it needs to.As for the project you mentioned, legal terminology database ...I mean technically all of these could work. Node seems overkill for this, but if you add ExpressJS and MongoDB to it I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I also don't really see any particular advantage of doing this over more established and wider supported paradigms like PHP/Ruby though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579210/#p579210 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? I'd go Ruby or Python, not Node. Node is popular and you can find lots of learning resources, but it's kind of the worst of all possible worlds, and the primary reason it became popular is because lots of devs already knew JS. I can't speak to Ruby on Rails, but Django just gives you a bunch of stuff out of the box like backend control panels for admins, templating languages, etc etc etc that Node doesn't really have good equivalents to unless you go hunting for all the different pieces and figure out how to put them together yourself. And you can avoid the async programming stuff with adequate performance for what you're probably thinking of doing.Python is more popular than Ruby but people who know what they're talking about have told me that Ruby on Rails is basically the same thing, so for the "this is easy, I just turned on some switches and got a dozen features" approach it should also deliver.And to the people who are likely as not to be all "but Node is fine": work has code that we copy between all our services because if you throw exceptions in Express endpoints they hang forever, and I've found bugs in the ORMs (plus, none of them give you easy migrations either). Yeah it's got learning resources, but "hunt for the libraries you need on NPM and haha there's no ways to tell if it's a good one until you try using it" is not at all a good experience for someone new in my opinion, and async programming is *way* harder than people here seem to be giving it credit for. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579122/#p579122 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? wow thank you all for the help and great info. This is exactly what I needed. What would you say is the difference between ruby and Node in conventions. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/579102/#p579102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? Node.js is very commonly used at universities to teach web app development for novices, so I think you can safely assume that it is suitable for learning how to develop a web app.As for do conventions from other programming languages apply? well, the universal ones of course do. but each programming language has its own conventions and isms. node.js is focused around async programming, which is a very solid paradigm for developing IO heavy apps like web servers. if you are unfamiliar with async programming then that will be something new you will learn while learning node.js, but it is very useful for programming in general and can be applied in virtually any programming language that supports first class functions.is it suitable for a legal terminology database? depends on how much functionality is required. if ht e only one updating it is you, then creating a static website or using a CMS like was already mentioned would be much simpler and any sort of web app would be overkill.but if instead you are creating a CRUD style app, where your website has authenticated users and they can create terms, update, and delete them, then you need an actual web app and node.js is fine for developing something like that. just find some web app development framework URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/578999/#p578999 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? Yes I use Node at my current job. I do full stack, but the technology is heavy on _javascript_/Java. As far as recommending as the first backend language, I don't know if I would go so far as to encourage it, only because there is somewhat of a learning curve when dealing with deployment, integration, and all the asynchronis coding fun. But it is the path that many newcomers are taking, so there is something to be said about that. Oh, and it's actually become very popular. If you follow some project recommendations on freeCodeCamp, you could learn it no problem! And I dare say, to prototype a project, or to get something set up really quick, I've been using Ruby on Rails lately. I know, a little older, but it works to get things up and running in no time!And I don't really know what you mean by "legal terminology database." Node is not database technology. It allows you to interact with databases, but that's a bit of a different skill set to learn. Maybe you can pick up MySQL database? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/578954/#p578954 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development?
Re: anyone using Node for back end web development? I have.Not hard to learn.I'd say that conventions mostly apply, but you'll have to learn some _javascript_-isms that are slowly going away. I.e. many functions use a callback style, where the first argument is an error (if any) and the second the actual return value. IME that's pretty unique to _javascript_, but if you just mentally invert how you think of the problem (I.e. the function isn't returning a value, it calls a callback with the value or an error after computation) it can be conceptualized in the usual contexts. Other than that it's pretty standard, and callback style is slowly being replaced by promises and async/await.Hard to say if it's a good starter language. If you just want to slap up a website for a business, a CMS like WordPress or Ghost is probably a better bet. If you're building a web app, it's certainly a good starter language, but that doesn't make it a great fit for every problem.I don't know much about your product, but legal terminology sounds like a potentially complex space. Node can probably do fine, but you'll probably be using it as glue between existing technologies like ElasticSearch. If you're planning on rolling your own, it's probably not a good fit, but if you have to ask whether Node is a good fit there, you're probably under-estimating how complex a legal terminology database can get. I say that as a software developer with a girlfriend studying to be a paralegal, so I know enough to know how much I likely don't know, if you get my meaning. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/578945/#p578945 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
anyone using Node for back end web development?
anyone using Node for back end web development? how hard is it to learn. Do the conventions for other programing languages still mostly apply? Would it be a good starter language for someone who seeks to develop a website. Is it a good idea for creating a legal terminology data base? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/578940/#p578940 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development
Re: Web development @3 happy to help. I will also link to my favorite reference to using WAI-ARIA. it has a lot of recipes for making accessible widgets using aria markup and has sections on other topics like regions, and implementing accessible keyboard interface.section 5, "Providing Accessible Names and Descriptions", lists the rules for how accessible names are computed by a browser, so can help in debugging if the accessible name isnt what you would expect it to be.https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/573300/#p573300 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development
Re: Web development Well yes and no. aria-label has weird edge cases. It works pretty reliably if the div has role button, link, or etc. or if the div is reached by focusing it (i.e. tabIndex=0). But in general you'll have to test it.The right answer was to use proper semantic HTML and not try to do this after the fact, which *is* possible, and tere's nothing super special about mobile that prevented it. How hard it is given that they didn't, I don't know, it depends on the app. But they'll need to learn most of aria to fix it, I suspect. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/573051/#p573051 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development
Re: Web development Thank you! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/573042/#p573042 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development
Re: Web development for these kind of things you would want to refer to WAI-ARIA documentation.to create an accessible label (one that is read out by assisstive tech, but not rendered visually) you can use aria-label attribute like this:and a screen reader will read that as "banana area" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/573029/#p573029 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Web development
Web development Hey all. I have a question. One of the hungarian devs is trying to make their browser game more accessible than it is now. They're using objects to make the mobile users happy. The problem is that there is no text on these, and they try to add labels to it. Is there an attribute aside from title, which can be read by NVDA? The problem with title is that mobile users see the text too and it is distracting.Thanks in advance.P.S.: I'm not familiar with web development so sorry if the terminology is a litle off. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/573017/#p573017 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @34A more direct answer to your question is the problem that making a website appealing is subjectively arbitrary. Just because the person you asked didn't like the font, font size, padding, or colors, doesn't mean others wouldn't like it, or how many wouldn't like it. This makes the question of making an "appealing" site a moving target, which makes it very hard to give a straight forward answer to your question. This has a lot of parallel's to Art, which is both subjective and fluid to say the least, and which can also be frequently used in frontend development, depending on the application. So, the question instead may be less about making an appealing site, but more a better understanding of common designs conventions and standards.So, with that in mind the most I can offer is a few suggestions. To help build a better understanding of current conventions and the relationship between visual displays and code, you could try asking people to describe in excruciating detail different kinds of websites, to get a sense of whats out there and what other people are doing for design. Also keep in mind the underlying sites content and function when doing this. You can also have them describe the site your working on to get a better understanding of the relationship between code and display.Avoid suggestions like "This looks good", or "I like X", or "No thats bad" without explicit explanations and details for why. There is an inherent risk of subjective bias in those kinds of descriptions that you may want to avoid, part of this is finding what you like, and determining that involves having an objective view. Don't let people do the work for you, this is about the learning and experience in the long term, not the immediate task at hand. You can also try using tools like The vOICe or BrushTone for getting a sonified look at different scales and segments of the website, in combination with color filtering to try and observe the layout yourself. There are a few tricks you can use to change the color scheme of the CSS script to help make the padding and layouts easier to parse. Again, keep the sites content and function in mind in relation to these things.If you have any more questions, we can try talking about it further and see where it goes.@33I understand what your trying to say, there are gradients and cirumstances people may be more well suited to than others. But trying to define who is or isn't a frontend dev becomes an inherently slippery slope. What level of complexity of design would qualify as sufficient to be considered a frontend dev? From whom would that validation come from? It may ultimately be besides the point anyway.Previous visual experience is also a fair point, to a degree. Studies on the spacial cognition of the blind conducted by psychologist John M. Kennedy indicated that people with brief periods of early visual perception had an easier time relating to spacial concepts such as depth, perspective, and the same methodologies the sighted develop over time. You can find reference to his work [here] and [here]. Note however that I said it makes it easier for those with visual experience, not impossible without it, and this is illustrated by the painter [Esref Armagan] who was born blind and learned artistic techniques, including shading, perspective, and color representation, purely through practice and feedback from others. Also keep in mind that i'm not talking about some fancy vague definition of art consisting of abstract or interpretive styles, but discrete anatonmically correct representation.As for sonifiers, and I don't suggest people rely solely on them as BrushTone also has Braille Display support and other features, is that while the overall resolution is limited, you can "zoom in" on segments of images for greater detail, the equivalent of focusing on a particular part of the image, which is equivalent to some aspects of limited visual perception. The vOICe also has a color filtering system that allows you to isolate a particular color and sonify only that to the exclusion of everything else, other tools like EyeMusic use different musical instruments interlaced to represent up to 5 colors simultaneously. The concept of shading is more of a perceptual interpretation of that information, the use of gradients and spacial reasoning. BrushTone comes with a few other features such as pixel RGB color representation via a series of pitch modulated tones, in addition to the ability to isolate the RGB layers or specify a specific color to sonify, and line scanning. Another advancement to that is Orbit Researches Graphiti, a literal tactile display monitor with variable height pins, haptic feedback, touch display, and color support, Which would all be great if not for the sticker shock. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/518375/#p518375 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-ref
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @34A more direct answer to your question is the problem that making a website appealing is subjectively arbitrary. Just because the person you asked didn't like the font, font size, padding, or colors, doesn't mean others wouldn't like it, or how many wouldn't like it. This makes the question of making an "appealing" site a moving target, which makes it very hard to give a straight forward answer to your question. This has a lot of parallel's to Art, which is both subjective and fluid to say the least, and which can also be frequently used in frontend development, depending on the application. So, the question instead may be less about making an appealing site, but more a better understanding of common designs conventions and standards.So, with that in mind the most I can offer is a few suggestions. To help build a better understanding of current conventions and the relationship between visual displays and code, you could try asking people to describe in excruciating detail different kinds of websites, to get a sense of whats out there and what other people are doing for design. Also keep in mind the underlying sites content and function when doing this. You can also have them describe the site your working on to get a better understanding of the relationship between code and display.Avoid suggestions like "This looks good", or "I like X", or "No thats bad" without explicit explanations and details for why. There is an inherent risk of subjective bias in those kinds of descriptions that you may want to avoid, part of this is finding what you like, and determining that involves having an objective view. Don't let people do the work for you, this is about the learning and experience in the long term, not the immediate task at hand. You can also try using tools like The vOICe or BrushTone for getting a sonified look at different scales and segments of the website, in combination with color filtering to try and observe the layout yourself. There are a few tricks you can use to change the color scheme of the CSS script to help make the padding and layouts easier to parse. Again, keep the sites content and function in mind in relation to these things.If you have any more questions, we can try talking about it further and see where it goes.@33I understand what your trying to say, there are gradients and cirumstances people may be more well suited to than others. But trying to define who is or isn't a frontend dev becomes an inherently slippery slope. What level of complexity of design would qualify as sufficient to be considered a frontend dev? From whom would that validation come from? It may ultimately be besides the point anyway.Previous visual experience is also a fair point, to a degree. Studies on the spacial cognition of the blind conducted by psychologist John M. Kennedy indicated that people with brief periods of early visual perception had an easier time relating to spacial concepts such as depth, perspective, and the same methodologies the sighted develop over time. You can find reference to his work [here] and [here]. Note however that I said it makes it easier for those with visual experience, not impossible without it, and this is illustrated by the painter [Esref Armagan] who was born blind and learned artistic techniques, including shading, perspective, and color representation, purely through practice and feedback from others. Also keep in mind that i'm not talking about some fancy vague definition of art consisting of abstract or interpretive styles, but discrete anatonmically correct representation.As for sonifiers, and I don't suggest people rely solely on them as BrushTone also has Braille Display support and other features, is that while the overall resolution is limited, you can "zoom in" on segments of images for greater detail, the equivalent of focusing on a particular part of the image, which is equivalent to some aspects of limited visual perception. The vOICe also has a color filtering system that allows you to isolate a particular color and sonify only that to the exclusion of everything else, other tools like EyeMusic use different musical instruments interlaced to represent up to 5 colors simultaneously. The concept of shading is more of a perceptual interpretation of that information, the use of gradients and spacial reasoning. BrushTone comes with a few other features such as pixel RGB color representation via a series of pitch modulated tones, in addition to the ability to isolate the RGB layers or specify a specific color to sonify, and line scanning. Another advancement to that is Orbit Researches Graphiti, a literal tactile display monitor with variable height pins, habit feedback, touch display, and color support, Which would all be great if not for the sticker shock. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/518375/#p518375 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-ref
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @32 let me tell you one of my experiences and show you that you are completely wrong:I designed a simple webpage (really really simple one) with a background color of black and foreground of white (2 different colors).when I showed that to a sighted person, he complained about it's padding, font, font size, even it's simple coloringI should tell you that that website was entirely accessible inn terms of accessibility.in addition, I should tell you that my vision was more in the passed (I could drive a car when I was about 11 or 12 or so with some help (not so much, the guy told me a car is coming and I could see and easily react))@31, I'm not talking about the art, since Beethoven was somehow death (you might have heard of his musics) and you are right by thisagain @32, someone sighted write the html, css stuff and loads it on the browser and checks it easily.but what happens for someone visually impaired?how many times we should ask a sighted person to come and tell us his/her apinian? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/517274/#p517274 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @32 let me tell you one of my experiences and show you that you are completely wrong:I designed a simple webpage (really really simple one) with a background color of black and foreground of white (2 different colors).when I showed that to a sighted person, he complained about it's padding, font, font size, even it's simple coloringI should tell you that that website was entirely accessible inn terms of accessibility.in addition, I should tell you that my vision was more in the passed (I could drive a car when I was about 11 or 12 or so with some help (not so much, the guy told me a car is coming and I could see and easily react))@31, I'm not talking about the art, since Beethoven was somehow death (you might have heard of his musics) and you are right by thisagain @32, someone sighted write the html, css stuff and loads it on the browser and checks it easily.but what happens for someone blind?how many times we should ask a sighted person to come and tell us his/her apinian? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/517274/#p517274 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @31While sensory substitution may make up for some things in limited contexts, I will concede only once we actually have blind frontend devs. You can't get the kind of resolution necessary out of any of that stuff.Also: if you have vision for a while you get some of this experience, if you're doing art you can just shrug and say that it's art and it looks however you want it to, a quick look at articles (as I don't have the time to watch videos right now) suggests that mostly those people also didn't use theory to do what they did. So my points stand.but I do think experience is really worth highlighting here--even if you have a sensory substitution device you'd need to spend a hell of a lot of time looking at frontends to even be able to reason out things that sighted people get on an intuitive level, and so far as I'm aware none of them can do color and shading, and again: resolution is a problem.@32You don't know enough to know what you don't know on this topic. The sorts of things @30 is bringing up are the frontend hello world equivalent. You don't get to just water this down to a "basic design". What you want to water it down to is no design at all. The kinds of things in @30 are the kinds of things that sighted people get in an hour or two of work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/517104/#p517104 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @30i agree that we can't do complicated designing but, if we stick to simple way thats enough. the real question is why would we want to do really complicated designs? and again most likely no company would hire a blind person as their front end developperfor sure. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/517079/#p517079 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @23Hmm... If you take two people, one blind and one sighted and have them look at a portrait in their respective ways, the sighted person will likely remark on the overlay of color and perspective visually. The blind person will likely appreciate the texture, outlines, description, or sound of the portrait via sonfier. Both people are experiencing the exact same thing, but in different ways. The fact that a blind person doesn't experience the portrait visually doesn't mean the sensory experiences they have can't translate to creating work that can similarly be appreciated by the sighted, because again, they are experiencing different aspects of the same thing. My point here is when we talk about a shared visual experience, what we should really be saying is a 'shared experience', expressed through one or more sensory modes, ie: visual, auditory, and kinesthetic.There are blind painters whom by sighted standards are [pretty good], and devised their own approaches to shape, form and color selection, or exhibits of blind photographers like [Sights Unseen]. When I first released BrushTone, it took only a day or two for people to make some rather decent pixel art, color appropriate art no less. So I know people can do it, but the techniques and guides used by sighted people who experience the medium in one way are likely to be less effective for someone who experiences it in another, even if the two may overlap in their final result. Its not perfect, but its a start.Frontend development though is a bit of an odd medium to be debating artistic rendition when I think about it, if only because of how fluid it can be. A sites content and function are usually the core aspects typically with aesthetics accentuating them, though other aspects of the design can include analytics, monetization, and behavioral psychology for retention and click through based on the model. Other than the technical implementation aspects, that can be a fairly complex affair that doesn't lend well to copy/pasting or surface analysis. But then again some people do go with just two colors and let their content do the talking for them, like anything it depends on the application, and for all the design, metrics, and analytics, they still can't predict what will or won't get market appeal. Do I think people can make an appealing site? Sure, but other than riding on its own merits there are other less obvious aspects to take into consideration than code and artistic aesthetics, and the nature of such sites can be fleeting. It could be interesting to look into and write up abit about the different aspects of it, though some of that may already be covered in the monetization model articles I posted a bit ago by [Ramin] [Shokrizade]. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/516844/#p516844 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development although bootstrap can make it responsive, but you need sighted assistance in any case.@28, it's not possible. (if you do it, it might not look something appealing as many of the websites which are designed by sighted people are not looking good).another thing is that you might have list of lists or different things which require different padding etc. then you easily will realize that you can't design it and you'll be screwed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/516270/#p516270 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @27i m not new to web, not saying it will be perfectly ok but, u can play with headings, fonts, margins etc and ask someone with sight how it looks, thats what i m trying to say. Although i hadn't deal with css mutch , this is the way i would go thru.Edit: Accidental spelling error. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/516017/#p516017 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @28Yes. Which is what I've said. But you would be amazed how fast this turns into asking the sighted person to do it for you. Got to check the site on all combinations of the following:Windows+Firefox, Windows+Edge, Windows+Chrome, Windows+Internet Explorer (arguably), Linux+Firefox, Linux+Chrome, Mac+Safari, Mac+Firefox, Mac+Chrome, iOS+Safari, iOS+Firefox (arguably), Android+Chrome, Android+Firefox (arguably).And you really want multiple screen sizes for each of the desktop platforms in that list. Fortunately for Android the simulator is probably good enough to keep you needing a lot of different Android tablets.Anything short of this level of testing and checking and it's going to look bad for someone. And do notice the size point--You really really need proper constraints these days as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/516026/#p516026 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @27i m not new to web, not saying it will be perfectly ok but, u can play with headings, fonts, margins etc and ask someone with side how it looks, thats what i m trying to say. Although i hadn't deal with css mutch , this is the way i would go thru. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/516017/#p516017 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @26Try this and get back to us, and you'll come away understanding why we're telling you this can't be done. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515981/#p515981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @20 and @21i was meaning copy and tweak your code accordingly. offcourse no need to say examine sites with simillar content of Yours. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515919/#p515919 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @24, the thing with wordpress is that it's default themes are as crap as hell.(saw it, sighted people agreed with me at least regarding twenty ten).for someone blind we even don't need css at all (the website can be a simple html page).but I'm talking about at least designing it that it least look good.(simply choosing colors doesn't suffice, you need to make it look good). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515865/#p515865 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development 1. Use WordPress or the default themes for whatever you are building. This will get things 90% there and will work to make your site not look bad.2. Use a UI library like Vaadin that has default styling. You will need to sit next to someone with the CSS for your site open and go through each page to make sure it looks good.3. Use something like Bootstrap CSS and then have a sighted person sit next to you and let you know what to do to make it look better.Once you have an idea of what components people like, then you can plug and play those pieces of the UI into future sites, but you always need to have a sighted person look at the interface to see how it looks. I equate CSS to a more complex version of aria. You never want to use aria without having a screen reader user test it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515846/#p515846 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @22I don't know, and I am speaking as someone who tried to get that knowledge and failed. I let the themes of my static site generator handle it.The most junior frontend people I've ever worked with go beyond where blind people can follow almost immediately. Get 10 or 20 colors going, shadows, animations, you name it. If I had to guess--without having the shared sighted experiences that let any of us guess, which is my entire point--I'd say you're looking at easily 5 to 10 different foreground colors, up to 2 background colors, at least 2 or 3 different fonts, and at least 2 or 3 different text sizes on the most basic modern blog that "looks good".But sadly that's not actually sufficient, because HTML also isn't able to do layout by modern standards, in the sense that if someone tries to read your site on their phone and you don't put effort in they're going to have a terrible experience. So you now also need to consider all the sizing stuff, so that your article doesn't wrap text weirdly, and test it on multiple screen sizes. And this can't just be pixels, because devices are now too diverse for that, so you need constraints of some sort, and then that feeds cyclically back into font choices.Sighted devs like static site generators too, or WordPress, or downloading react components from NPM and then writing special case CSS to override. The level of complexity here is why. There is some misunderstanding on this thread that if you're sighted you pick a couple colors and say use these colors and you're done with it or something. That's so far from the modern reality. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515828/#p515828 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @18What precisely are we talking about here? I don't disagree that theory isn't everything, but in what respect is it not enough? Aesthetically? In the functional creation of digital art? In the development of complex CSS scripting? There are varying degrees of complexity in each endeavor that can inform different approaches and tools for the tasks, you don't necessarily need an exquisitely complex CSS page for example.Skipping professional employment, what would you consider a workable level of CSS for a personal webpage? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515822/#p515822 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @19Actually, no you cannot. You have to get all the CSS selecters right for your page as a bare minimum.CSS isn't just setting background and foreground color. It sets literally hundreds of properties per element using a complex query language that can let you i.e. change the color of all paragraphs inside a div with a specific attribute on it but if and only if it's the tag immediately after an h3 tag. For example. It has behavior differences across all browsers. The most basic CSS you can do that looks even tolerable, even if copying, requires customization and testing against Linux, Windows, Mac, and iOS, with each browser on those platforms. Just to know if it works. Not even works as in looks good. Works as in took effect and did something in the first place.There are people who don't even know a proper programming language making near $10 simply by building a career around knowing how to get CSS right. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515797/#p515797 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development Just because it works does not mean that it will do so in your situation. Not every code runs the same and different browsers. Not every code runs the same and different page layouts. You can’t tell that it works as it should. Finally, people may have had different reasons to use such CSS. It may have been contrasting with something else on the page. It may have been highlighting something which you don’t even have. You just can’t tell that something is appropriate in your situation when it comes to visual components. It’s like saying to use parts of Linux code in windows because they’re both OS’. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515791/#p515791 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development Just because it works does not mean that it will do so in your situation. Not every code runs the same and different browsers. Not every code runs the same and different page layouts. You can’t tell. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515791/#p515791 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @18You can simply copy a working csss. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515721/#p515721 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @12It's not really an argument about learning styles. If it was possible to do music via music theory or painting via painting theory, we'd have had AI doing this in the 90s. yes, it's useful. yes, you can use it as a jumping off point. But at the end of the day it's really, really not enough.@17it doesn't matter. because you also have 3. 3 is there is literally no reliable tool to tell you whether your CSS is working. There is no need for such a tool because for sighted people that tool is called functional vision.Blind people can't do everything. This is one of the things we can't do. The best I ever found for working on existing codebases is dpxdt, which can be used in CI setups to prove that you didn't break CSS, but it still doesn't tell you if the CSS you wrote is doing what you think, or even doing anything at all.If you rope a sighted friend in you can write the CSS, but note that this still requires a sighted friend. I also went through the "but maybe somehow" bargaining phase that everyone goes through and there isn't a maybe somehow for this one. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515720/#p515720 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development in fact there are two ways of clearing up this issue and actually combining two is my method.1.Imitate what others do. Examine other html pages, how they do this and that ect.2.Spesiphic colours for spesiphic content types.as i said before, make two of these come together and all fine.How ever i agree noone would want to hier a totally blind person to be their a front end developer though getting hired as a web developper might not be that muthc of an issue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/515696/#p515696 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development Just to reiterate - yes, there is nothing stopping you from using CSS yourself, but there exist no tools to tell you whether or not it is "appealing," seeing as it's a subjective thing that companies have dedicated teams for. You are not going to be able to accomplish front-end work all on your own as a totally-blind person if you're shooting for aesthetics. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514985/#p514985 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development all of us have no problem with html side of things, just the css part is the problem since it directly deals with appearance. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514962/#p514962 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development I did some front-end work at one of my previous internships. All I did was look up Bootstrap tags and get a general sense of what they do. I incorporated what I thought was asked of me, handed it off to another dev, and they either confirmed it was the necessary change or not. I'd then try again once more, and if that didn't take the dev would just do it himself.Now, in practical terms, it's far easier to just have someone else do the visually-driven things. That doesn't mean you can't be a part of building the HTML. Far too many front-end devs think HTML is too make the website "look visually-appealing," and that is an intro to web design 101 kind of bullet point that isn't talked about or stressed enough. [DO NOT] use headings to make your text look bigger. That's what CSS is for. Remember the ML stands for "markup language." You're quite literally marking up the content of your website. In other words, the HTML just describes the content, but does not operate as the driver for making it appear in a visually-pleasing manner.My point here is that while you won't find it easy to do front-end work in terms of visual aesthetics, you can still play a vital role in how HTML is handled, and that makes a whole world's difference when it comes to Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and what that means for screen-reader users. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514954/#p514954 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @8,I don't mean accessibility.from a totally blind perspective and when for totally blind visitors, I have no problem of setting colors (background color black foreground color blue for example) and it doesn't make any sense for them.but when someone sighted comes to my website, he says this website is terrible in terms of appearance.not just the color, amount of margin, padding, fonts and their sizes etc all of them have effect on the people who see your website.as you know, every color has meaning (in different cultures they can mean differently).as an example coca cola's color is a white text written on a red background which is not an accidental choice.I even don't mean the contrast between the colors (as it's a requirement for accessibility), but the thing that sighted people can see and even comment on it.as far as i know, there isn't any tool that can help us with this matter. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514682/#p514682 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @11It depends. In some respects thats an argument of one learning style over another, since some benefit more from theory than others do. For many visual artists they can learn innately because visual material isn't an abstract concept, though some benefit more from theory study than others in practice. There are an enormous number of styles and ways to create art however, some more formulaic or programmatic than others, like OpenSCAD for modeling, or Povray3D for raytracing. In the end its just arranging 2D arrays of data into particular patterns by arbitrary standards. When I say "theory", I mean the application of particular techniques and methods in a structured deterministic way, much like programming. Given that visual art may be an abstract concept for non-visual users, working on such a practical, or theoretical side first can help conceptually build a foundation towards more practical experience.When it comes to my own pixel art, I tend to work methodically and geometrically using patterns with existing art techniques, or at times with programatically generated procedural art. Same with GUI Design. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514612/#p514612 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @11It depends. In some respects thats an argument of one learning style over another, since some benefit more from theory than others do. For many visual artists they can learn innately because visual material isn't an abstract concept, though some benefit more from theory study than others in practice. There are an enormous number of styles and ways to create art however, some more formulaic or programmatic than others, like OpenSCAD for modeling, or Povray3D for raytracing. In the end its just arranging 2D arrays of data into particular patterns by arbitrary standards. When I say "theory", I mean the application of particular techniques and methods in a structured deterministic way, much like programming. Given that visual art may be an abstract concept for non-visual users, working on such a practical, or theoretical side first can help conceptually build a foundation towards more practical experience.When it comes to my own pixel art, I tend to work methodically and geometrically using patterns with eisting art techniques, or at times with programatically generated procedural art. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514612/#p514612 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @11Theoretical resources are more of a starting point, practical experience is the only useful metric long term. Artists typically use theory to refine existing techniques, which they can readily gain through practice. But for them, working with visual material isn't an abstract concept. If you sat a sighted person down and told them to paint a colored image blindfolded, they would have to rely much more heavily on technique to determine not just what colors their working with and where, but in what mixtures and techniques to get the desired result.Put another way, sighted artists et al may not talk about theory, because they don't have to. This doesn't mean that theory wouldn't be of increased value to non-sighted artists for approaches and techniques. A similar concept would be soldering for the blind, which is something many schools conceptually have a hard time thinking is even possible, let alone safe, yet which [guides] are written tat help conceptualize that its not only possible, but how its done.But again, theory is just a starting point. Applying it towards practical experience is the end goal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514598/#p514598 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @9Most painters don't go talk about color theory. Most musicians don't go talk about music theory. Most frontend developers don't go talk about frontend development theory either. For things which are almost entirely human-centric, the theoretical resources are only going to get you halfway there but probably much less. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514561/#p514561 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
2020-03-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development @9 I just love how you always have wwhat's needed. You're quite resourceful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514560/#p514560 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development Thats a bit of a misconception, since Art Theory draws from a set of well traveled techniques, same with Color Theory. The main problem is available tools and approach, which is very different from a non-visual perspective than that of a visual one, not to mention there not being an abundance of books or materials around that cover it, though you can find some [here]. Accessible digital paint tools are also still largely in their infancy, and with better tools and materials, the practical experience becomes more one of exposure. Then there's also things like [AI assisted drawing tools]. These are things i've wanted to tackle more, but i've been rather occupied of late, if it helps there's a guide on accessible color schemes [here] that may be useful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514548/#p514548 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development Thats a bit of a misconception, since Art Theory draws from a set of well traveled techniques, same with Color Theory. The main problem is available tools and approach, which is very different from a non-visual perspective than that of a visual one, not to mention there not being an abundance of books or materials around that cover it, though you can find some [here]. Accessible digital paint tools are also still largely in their infancy, and with better tools and materials, the practical experience becomes more one of exposure. Then there's also things like [AI assisted drawing tools]. These are things i've wanted to tackle more, but i've been rather occupied of late, if it helps there's an accessible color scheme guide [here] that may be useful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514548/#p514548 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development Thats a bit of a misconception, since Art Theory draws from a set of well traveled techniques, same with Color Theory. The main problem is available tools and approach, which is very different from a non-visual perspective than that of a visual one, not to mention there not being an abundance of books or materials around that cover it, though you can find some [here]. Accessible digital paint tools are also still largely in their infancy, and with better tools and materials, the practical experience becomes more one of exposure. These are things i've wanted to tackle more, but i've been rather occupied of late, if it helps there's an accessible color scheme guide [here] that may be useful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514548/#p514548 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development If the question is actually just how do sighted people do this...I know a sighted frontend developer as a somewhat close friend, and work with some others. There are guidelines you can pull from, i.e. Apple's human interface guidelines, and for accessibility there's the WCAG 2.0. But it really just seems to turn into art for everyone, like the digital app equivalent of painting. There's also a large degree of being blind meaning not having certain shared experiences to draw from. And in this case even a little bit of vision doesn't help you have those experiences, because the details that people get stuck on are very fine details indeed.It's like how sighted people i.e. freak out when I go cooking in the kitchen with the sharp knives or don't understand how I'm living alone: there's too much of a gap for there to be a good common language, and people on one side have to try very hard to even get a little bit of what it's like to be on the other side of it. But it's not formulaic like programming and you'll be hard pressed to find some sort of table or something to draw from. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514521/#p514521 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development @6 it doesn't work always.consider that someone puts a text in orange in a black screen.if you saw it before (people who had vision before can understand what I'm saying).or a text in cyan in a green screen (consider that someone who is color blinded wants to read it). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514520/#p514520 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
2020-03-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development Here's a tip ty. Dark colours on light background. Light colours on dark backgrounds. If you want I can help you out with colours and what looks good and what looks bad. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514518/#p514518 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development I agree with @4 so I asked this.although bootstrap can help you with this, but you need sighted assistance (I'm saying this because I had more vision than now in passed).@2 if you research on which color is good for what you won't make it at all. because you should see both forground and background colors and decide URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514406/#p514406 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development You can't be a frontend developer professionally. It doesn't matter how much CSS you know. No one is going to give you a full-time sighted assistant to help check your styling to make sure it's accurate and working on all the major browsers. You either have enough vision that you don't need to ask this question, or you don't do frontend development, and there is honestly no middle ground here.For a personal site, use something like Nikola or Jekyll and let the default themes handle it. Or hire/find a friend, either to help you test or to just give you working CSS. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514351/#p514351 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
Re: frontend web development I actually have a similar question. I know CSS, but I just don't know what colors look good on what. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514331/#p514331 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development
2020-03-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : manamon_player via Audiogames-reflector
Re: frontend web development I'll reserch for cullers then i'll decideI won't make my website dark URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514302/#p514302 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
frontend web development
frontend web development hi,suppose you want to develop a website for yourself, how you will make it look good (as we're have sight issues)?how do you style it or make it good for someone who is not visually impaired?or lets dive more deeper into it, suppose you want to be hired as a frontend developer or a full stack developer. how do you make a good looking website?how do you color your website in such a way that when someone sighted look at your website will enjoy it?or how do you make your website that someone who are color blind can read it without problem?thanks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/514262/#p514262 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? in some situations node is popular (because of using _javascript_).but php, c# and all of them have their own demands.for example, wordpress is so much popular and many companies want wordpress professionals (at least in Iran).also many people want asp.net pros, for example the website of our university is written in asp.net.the thing is learn whatever you are comfortable with and what you can earn more money with it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/510837/#p510837 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? OK, i understanmd. Thank you URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/510818/#p510818 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? @11Just look at their pricing page. It will answer all your questions.The short version is you'll be able to use the free tier and the limitations it comes with until your project is ready for release, then you pay a flat rate of $7/month. You'll maybe also need an additional $9/month for the database. If you need bigger plans than these, you're in a good lace to be.Now someone's going to say "but that's expensive! I don't have $20/month" and my answer to you is that if you don't have $20/month, this is going to be a massive headache and you aren't going to have any real reliability. You can bargain shop if all you're doing is storing some static assets like a blog, but if your project is even slightly popular then $20/month is a very, very reasonable price to run it. You don't even want to know what's involved in backing up Postgres reliably. I've done it. It's not fun. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/510150/#p510150 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? Well, it seems interesting. I will look into it. I am just a hoobyist but I want to make money from all of this someday, hence my questions. If I had a job, a house and a secure living, I'd go for C# as I love the language lol. But from my research it seems like Node is in high demand now. Thank you for all your valuable feedback. With Heroku I do not understand, as you said that it has a free tier, but later on it was said they charge for requests. So how is it? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/510107/#p510107 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? @9, for someone like me who live in a sanctioned country it's not possible.another issue is that I even can't verify my account there!. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/510074/#p510074 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? @8Heroku charges a flat monthly fee for the non-fre tier. It's not usage-based billing.The 30 minute thing is a free tier limitation. Free tier dynos turn themselves off after 30 minutes from the last request. They'll automatically turn themselves back on, but it takes on the order of seconds or more for them to do so so the first request will always lag.You can get hobby for $7/month and it's always awake plus it handles ssl etc for you out of the box. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509957/#p509957 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? hi,the thing with heroku is that if you deploy and if someone sends only 1 request to your heroku application, you will be charged something like 30 minutes.I mean your server will run for about 30 minutes then waits for another request.on that time, it doesn't matter if you get 1 request or a hundred thousand requests.but in my point of view, heroku is great. I love it for it's simplicity. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509943/#p509943 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? @6If you are comfortable enough with Apache to get it proxying HTTP requests to a unix domain socket, then don't worry about it. I'd specifically have to Google resources for you though, because when I need to do this I just use the reference manuals.Basic Nginx config is around 20 lines and the language you do it in isn't weird XML. If you google Nginx Node.js you can probably find a bunch of tutorials and sample configs.Apache is a terrible monster because it supports a lot of legacy stuff from the olden days, like PHP where it needs the web server to invoke it instead of just always running.But whichever you use you'll get about the same performance, and Nginx doesn't count for a whole lot more on the resume, so if you already know Apache then use it.But as I said, in anything but PHP, you don't even have to worry about Apache/Nginx until the very end, and if you just use heroku you don't have to worry about either even then. Knowing Linux doesn't make Heroku obsolete. My point is "If you know Linux then you don't need Heroku", it's that from the professional perspective hiring someone who knows Linux to admin your web servers and be on call 24/7 doesn't make sense for new projects these days when you can get Heroku to do it. Don't underestimate out of the box single-command deploys and letting someone else handle all the configuration headaches for you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509920/#p509920 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? @Camlorn, I can use Linux very well, I never messed with NGINX but if you point me to some reliable how tos I am willing to try URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509898/#p509898 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? I'd go NodeJS if the goal is job-friendliness because knowing _javascript_ alone is a massive boon to the resume and knowing Node is an even more massive boon to the resume.I'd go Python and Django if the goal is building a Rest API (i.e. game save storage, an authentication system) in a hurry.PHP is used for lots of stuff, but is an ugly language that has massive scalability problems. It got popular because it's easy to start with and people wrote some software in it that took off by being in the right place at the right time, not because it's good.You don't make Node talk to Apache. You make Apache talk to node. It's perfectly doable, and no harder than PHP or Python. That said, overall Nginx is easier to configure and generally preferred these days for new projects, so I'd look at that instead of trying to get the massive monolith that is Apache going.It is perhaps not so obvious how this works, but all Apache does (even in the PHP case) is proxy HTTP requests like any other HTTP proxy. You configure Node, Python, or whatever else that isn't PHP to listen on a Unix socket, then you configure Apache or Nginx to proxy HTTP connections there. What makes PHP special is that it can't exactly run without a web server launching it for you, so with other stuff a lot of the complexity just goes away.The rest of these don't even need Nginx or Apache because they're already running their own HTTP servers, so for development you can just run a command at a shell, and it will run i.e. on your local machine without a problem. You really only bother with Apache or Nginx at the end for performance or security.I would look into the Heroku free tier. If you're already using Git, you do about 5 minutes of setup, then do git push heroku whenever you want to deploy. Their non-free tiers are about as expensive as a non-Heroku VPS. You won't have to know how Apache or Nginx work, or even how to administer Linux. They handle it all for you. Most people use something like this in the real world, instead of paying someone full time to manage their servers.If you want to go C# you can. Just use .net core. I haven't set it up but I've looked into it, and it's just some normal Linux package installs away. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509869/#p509869 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
2020-03-18
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? Hi there,well, simply said, go with the language you like the most.For me personally, I like C#, for tons of benefits I have written many times on this forum, such as ability to make proper encapsulation (not all languages have that), nice properties syntax, Solid naming conventions, Linq, Subprocessing etc.But above all of these, I like the syntax, and that's often more important than thousand features. Both Java and C# have Tasks for example, but the syntax in Java case is so horrible, that I can't even name how horrible it is. Someone may like it, but I don't. Therefore C# is my number one choice.On the other side, _javascript_ and PHP, I don't like any of them. I use _javascript_ for client side stuff if necessary, but C# can do this as well with its Blazor project, so I'll perhaps limit that too.Both of them are quite developed languages, with millions of libraries and projects, but what's that good for, when I don't like the syntax?Coding is not about using some exotic tools, which would require a very specific setup, but more about applying already existing things so precisely, that the result will be functional, nice and reliable in the same time. Thus select your toolbox in a way, that tools themselves won't be a drag for you.Or, in other words, it's similar to selecting a mattress for your bed. While trying out various models in a shop, it's good to keep in mind, that what you're lying on at the moment will be your sleeping pad for next 10 years.Btw, isn't asp.net core compatible with linux natively? I didn't really try, but it's written in .net core, which is crossplatform and asp.net core itself thus is as well. But I don't know what is the situation on Linux, so it might be worth checking.Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509860/#p509860 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? I wonder if I can use Node modules in pure JS. Because as far as I am concerned, it's not easy to make Node talk to Apache. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509854/#p509854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Re: Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? hi,C# is hard to set up in linux, thats correct. you need to setup mono for .net stuff as far as I can think of.node is the same _javascript_, so if you learn it, you will be good to go.but for the php: many of the website scripts are written in php(wordpress, joomla, drupal, MyBB, PunBB,, SMF, etc).it's easy to setup, has a great manual, and so on, specially if you learn something like laraval.but it's a little bit slower than others in terms of executionpython: you didn't ask about this, but I'll talk about it.it has many frameworks and microframeworks like django, flask, web2py etc which make it a little bit hard to choose. but the learning curve forr all of them are somehow the same (I know flask and thats great for my needs).but the simple answer is learn whatever that you are comfortable with. because everything have their own pros and cons. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509853/#p509853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP?
Web Development: Node JS, C# or PHP? Hello!I am now wondering about learning some web technology in summer, when my school year ends. I am quite well-versed in C#, so I thought about going with ASP.NET, Razor and so on. However from what I know, it's kinda hard to set it up on Linux, which is my main envrionment for server stuff. Node JS looks promising, I like how it works, but I don't know if it's good.And finally: PHP, I have heard some very bad things about the technology. I know it a bit, but not well enough to form my own opinion on it. What do you guys think? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/509832/#p509832 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? I mentioned poking this thread when Id tagged my blog. To that end, heres everything Ive written so far about the problem of realtime online games. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186273#p186273 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Yes, exactly. Except that the lengths of the corridors and whether they turn is considered unimportant. The only information youre interested in is that two intersections are connected by a corridor. In the most basic setup, nothing else is kept. And just that is enough to write a program that can solve the maze. Going further, you can actually represent really strange things as graphs, for example an in-progress checkers game, but thats a whole second discussion about AI programming and Im by no means an expert. I really should post my 15-puzzle solver one of these days.A Wysiwyg engine of sufficient complexity to actually do something at all has to have scripting. The problem is that, for those of us who know how one might go about doing it, its pointless to actually do it. We can already make whatever we want without such things. I kinda started down that road with audiogame_engine, at least as far as the basic windowing and state transition stuff, but that doesnt even have talking menus yet. Nor will it be Wysiwyg-the point is to provide the smaller pieces that everyone duplicates themselves for everything, not to be a side-scroller or what have you. These engines cant come in two versions, and thats why Audiogame Engine (written in flash, if I recall correctly) failed. It tried to be so ridiculously nontechnical that actually doing anything complex was impossible. I said this back when I was using it in early high school and barely handling 50-lline programs; Id probably have much worse things to say now.Since this is already spiraling way, way off topic and I cant actually make it much worse, Im going to try to explain Libaudioverse a bit without using the word graph. I get the feeling my comments were misunderstood to some extent.Basically, its like having boxes and wires. You can hook the input side of any box to the output side of any other box with a wire. Because were using special magical sockets, you can hook as many inputs from as many different boxes as you like to the same output--this allows feeding sources with the same file and controlling them all by controlling the playback time and speed of the file. The 3d simulation mostly hides this, save that a source is an object with one input that needs to be hooked to something--this enables doing things like making wind synthesizers or piping midi messages into your game world. But if you want, you can drop down and use the low-level pieces directly and make media players, for example. One of the C examples, as of yet not ported to Python because of laziness, does exactly this. A full command line media player in exactly 75 lines of C (dont you hate license comments, the 10-line macro thats needed because C doesnt have exceptions, and the inc ludes?). I keep managing to get distracted by the fact that school started this week, already missed the promised date for releasing the preview, and consequently kind of want to port it so that its there in Python before I do anything. It shows off every feature of Libaudioverse save array properties, which are only used in one place anyway (speaker maps for the n-channel amplitude pannere). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185490#p185490 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Yes, exactly. Except that the lengths of the corridors and whether they turn is considered unimportant. The only information youre interested in is that two intersections are connected by a corridor. In the most basic setup, nothing else is kept. And just that is enough to write a program that can solve the maze. Going further, you can actually represent really strange things as graphs, for example an in-progress checkers game, but thats a whole second discussion about AI programming and Im by no means an expert. I really should post my 15-puzzle solver one of these days.A Wysiwyg engine of sufficient complexity to actually do something at all has to have scripting. The problem is that, for those of us who know how one might go about doing it, its pointless to actually do it. We can already make whatever we want without such things. I kinda started down that road with audiogame_engine, at least as far as the basic windowing and state transition stuff, but that doesnt even have talking menus yet. Nor will it be Wysiwyg-the point is to provide the smaller pieces that everyone duplicates themselves for everything, not to be a side-scroller or what have you. These engines cant come in two versions, and thats why Audiogame Maker (written in flash, if I recall correctly) failed. It tried to be so ridiculously nontechnical that actually doing anything complex was impossible. I said this back when I was using it in early high school and barely handling 50-lline programs; Id probably have much worse things to say now.Since this is already spiraling way, way off topic and I cant actually make it much worse, Im going to try to explain Libaudioverse a bit without using the word graph. I get the feeling my comments were misunderstood to some extent.Basically, its like having boxes and wires. You can hook the input side of any box to the output side of any other box with a wire. Because were using special magical sockets, you can hook as many inputs from as many different boxes as you like to the same output--this allows feeding sources with the same file and controlling them all by controlling the playback time and speed of the file. The 3d simulation mostly hides this, save that a source is an object with one input that needs to be hooked to something--this enables doing things like making wind synthesizers or piping midi messages into your game world. But if you want, you can drop down and use the low-level pieces directly and make media players, for example. One of the C examples, as of yet not ported to Python because of laziness, does exactly this. A full command line media player in exactly 75 lines of C (dont you hate license comments, the 10-line macro thats needed because C doesnt have exceptions, and the incl udes?). I keep managing to get distracted by the fact that school started this week, already missed the promised date for releasing the preview, and consequently kind of want to port it so that its there in Python before I do anything. It shows off every feature of Libaudioverse save array properties, which are only used in one place anyway (speaker maps for the n-channel amplitude pannere). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185490#p185490 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Podsix is built for games, so hopefully it will not be that ugly when writing games. Also, there is a game engine that is like a wysiwyg game engine that uses podsix.I dont know how it would be when trying to write a website though.Twisted, Gevent, and Asyncio are all general pirpus and what I should eventually learn. Is django something that hides all of this stuff and just lets you worry about the website and content?Asyncio honestly looks like the easiest of those three you said, and I think it is built-in...In other news, I am eagerly eagerly eagerly awaiting libaudioverse! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185356#p185356 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Well, heh. Im about to release a preview of it, possibly this evening; it is lacking in features and documentation an isnt yet alpha quality, but the examples and basic 3d stuff works. Describing it properly is going to require a full manual or me finding someone who gets it and is better at technical writing: the concept is fine, if you get something from directed acyclic graph of audio processors, but otherwise needs informative examples/tutorials. Its honestly not that bad, and the Python examples Im going to put up are pretty clean and informative. Ive just spent so long thinking about graphs that I can no longer think of things like Libaudioverse in any other context, making writing about them in a less mathematical way difficult. Its incredibly easy to use, at least in my opinion, just hard to document without saying here, have some sample code. In a sentence, its basically Pyo but fast enough to be useful in games and not necessarily GPL. Commercial licenses will happen, as Ive been careful to be the only coder. I wish I were a lawyer because then Id have copyright agreements and could get help from others. Im the only coder I know who knows DSP at all and would be interested so thats kinda a moot point anyway.Django doesnt hide things, in that you can access most of HTTp. What Django is doing is providing a framework to say if the user asks for /blog/posts/june2014, then call the get_archive function and whatever the get_archive function returns needs to go out as HTML. Its not quite that simple, in that you also use Django for web API creation (a whole second beast and I cant talk much about it for lack of experience). Whats going on with Django is that Django speaks HTTP on your behalf, ending the connection appropriately when the funct ion returns and figuring out what to call. It also gives you a *ton* of free web behavior, i.e. youve got a full and capable (and accessible, actually) database editor in about 5 minutes-just as soon as you define the models. It also provides a lot of nice stuff for database access/management and rendering templates-but neither is specific to HTTP. I dont believe Django uses Twisted or anything under the hood, but would need to read its actual code to check. In Twisted/whatever, youd have to implement the HTTP protocol yourself; alternatively, call out to a library that accepts incoming data and interprets it for you.Asyncio is built into Python 3. Python 2 versus Python 3 is a big topic, and Im not going to judge you one way or another. There is a backport to Python 2 called Trollius that you can install. As far as I can tell, Asyncio gets the best of the Twisted world and the best of the Gevent world at the sa me time, plus a few nice things that neither of them offer. If you go far down the online game creation world in the direction of Swamp, youll be writing your own protocol, so arguments about supporting Obscure File Transfer V 1.0 are kinda out the window. But yes, learning one of them is probably a pretty good idea. My argument about things like Pod6net is that they are lacking maturity: lots of people have used Twisted and Gevent, and the people who developed Twisted and Gevent brought a huge amount of how we went wrong to the Asyncio table. When you start talking about obscure packages like this, you can sometimes find that youre giving up a lot of nice stuff-for example, tutorials on how to do complex things and other libraries that complement the main framework specifically.Also, Wysiwyg tends to be pretty inaccessible in my experience. Is this for browser games or actual MMO-style things? If the latter, yo ure going to hit the roadblock of not having a trimesh editor, I suspect. But Im curious to see. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185365#p185365 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? I look forward to the panning feature!Im not sure what you mean about talking in graphs, but in a game like Swamp or even Paladin of the Sky, if you dont mention graphs, life becomes very complex... If you place the object at 5 squares ahead and 2 to the left, when you play it it will sound in your left speaker, not quite full-volume. If you go to where the object is 2 squares to your left, the sound will play very loud in your left ear...LOL And I dont really read the words as a piece of code can speak a thousand words... Just say:to place an object on your map:libaudioverse.stereo.object.set(x=10, y=8)will place an object in the array that runs each game loop and will trigger when objects are at libaudioverse.stereo.distance.set(squares=10) squares away.Really any example will be fine though, if you say it is easy, Ill believe you LOL.I still use python 2.7, but that is because it ha s the most things that work on it. But slowly, life is becoming OK in 3.X in regards to packages. What will libaudioverse be in? (Although I think for calls you dont run into any problems between the two).Asyncio doesnt seem to have any documentation that is directly related to gaming, so I would have to translate everything to what I would need it for.PodSix is used in Construct which I dont think is accessible at all.(btw, why dont we have a pythonic game what you hear is what you get engine? I can think of several extremely high-end ones for sighted people that have their own audio engine, multiplayer support, graphics rendering, map builders, events assigned to objects and all kinds of things that make game creation super nice and easy. (The kind of easy that allows my sighted brother to produce one small game a month). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185368#p185368 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? A graph is a structure in mathematical and computer science generally. Its a structure of interconnected nodes typically and used to represent structures. Its used for pathfinding algorithms etc. I really am not the expert in this field though. I think he meant that due to the complexity of hrtf and the audio engine in general, it would be difficult to switch to an abstracted view of the library. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185373#p185373 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? No, no, no.Firstly, Libaudioverse is currently Python 2, but the binding generator I wrote for it means that I can target anything and theres no reason that it cant also be Python 3. And by anything, I mean anything, at least so long as the FFI has a specific set of low-level primitives (sorry, but BGT is out. You dont have pointers to pointers, you dont have callbacks, any capable programming language neutral library for anything needs both).In much the same way that someone who knows calculus III probably would have trouble teaching basic Algebra, I know enough about Graphs and computer science that directed acyclic dependency graph of audio processors tells me everything Id ever want to know about the audio library in question. For this reason, I find it hard to bridge the gap between what I know and what a user who doesnt know what graphs are needs to know-save, of course, via giving you examples. sp; When I actually write them out, theyre quite simple-I just cant get English itself to do what I want as I keep ending up using too many computer science terms. This is a problem with me as a writer, not Libaudioverse itself.In this case, a graph is not what you think. A graph is a construct consisting of nodes which are connected by edges. The particular position of the nodes is not important-graphs often represent things that dont even exist in actual, physical space! Graphs, as a computer science term, occur in all sorts of places. For example, computers connected by networks (the nodes are the computers and the edges the wires running between them), roads (edges) and intersections (nodes), etc. Most of the classical examples use train tracks, but you can also look at air ports and the planes that fly between them this way. A linked list, tree, and most other similar data structures are special cases of gr aphs.Someone did try to do the Wysiwyg engine for the blind, but failed. This was Audiogame Maker back in the day, and it honestly fell very, very flat. Im not too sure why weve not seen another attempt. I suspect that partially this is due to the fact that it failed so hard and partially to the fact that we honestly dont have many programmers of the required level of experience in this community.Youre not going to find too much that documents specifically for games. Its assumed that youll have some idea what you want or need by the time youre looking at low-level network programming. The difficulty is not the connection; the difficulty is figuring out what you have to send. The one good-looking thing I found was Panda3ds networking package for automatically keeping objects in sync; then it turned out that, when Disney released it, they only released the client portion. The server i s the hard part for that, and no one ever got a stable implementation going. Only a grad student at CMU ever tried. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185385#p185385 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? I cant wait for you to post libaudioverse up on the forum! LOL *refreshes the forum every 10 seconds*So basically a graph is a list of linked data structures that are connected by something. Basically like a chain or maze.Im sure my first uses of libaudioverse will have enough comments to constitute a small tutorial lol (I tend to program in the summer and breaks and do nothing in between, so I end up forgetting everything and need to remember what I was doing when I stopped LOL).Ill let you know what these higher level packages are like.How hard would it be to create an engine that is wysiwyg? Also, what was that older engine programmed in? I think what turns people off of languages like BGT or scripting languages like that is the fact you cant do anything but make audio games with that knowledge.Also, like you say, people who have the knowledge to create these awesome engines often have a hard time expressing th eir concepts to non programmers in a basic way. That is why python has kind of become popular as a way to make audio games for newbies. Learn python the hard way is a super awesome tutorial that is written for non programmers and gets people to a place to where when they seefrom libaudioverse import soundclass S(sound): def __init__(self, right=5, left=5, sound_file=None):sound.__init__()self.right = rightself.left = leftself.sound_file = sound_filethey dont freak.My brother uses an engine that uses python as the base language and the tutorial kind of expects that people have gone through something like learn python the hard way before reading it.Although, Im sure one could make an awesome engine that is a little technical, then make another version that is really restrictiv e for really newbie people.Because I find that a lot of my time is spent creaBbting modules that cycle through lists and whatnot in different ways. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185429#p185429 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? So I did some googling and foundPodSixNeta python package that will do exactly what I want. It sends info from the client to the server, has code for the server to send info to the client and I just need to run the check once in my game loop to do all the checks. Im going to play with this and see if I can get it working! It has a nice little chat example as well.Here is a tutorial for a lines game using pod6Ill see how it works and hopefully will understand a little more after working with it for a while. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185167#p185167 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? So I did some googling and foundPodSixNeta python package that will do exactly what I want. It sends info from the client to the server, has code for the server to send info to the client and I just need to run the check once in my game loop to do all the checks. Im going to play with this and see if I can get it working! It has a nice little chat example as well.Here is a tutorial for a lines game using pod6Ill see how it works and hopefully will understand a little more after working with it for a while.*note*After a little more searching around, I found:Astral NetworkingA more advanced library to stack on the top of podSix and it is built to work with pygame.The only do wnside is that it is version 0.0... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185167#p185167 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Be careful when choosing to use less popular packages; Twisted, Gevent, and Asyncio are written and used by many, many people. Im not saying that you should disregard the packages you have found. But if your code starts getting ugly, it may be the fault of the package and not yourself, so keep that in mind. Also, note that LGPL is arguably GPL when using Python, in that you basically cant do anything to close-source the client effectively and still obey the license.Part of network programming is not blocking. This means that you can never explicitly wait on anything. Twisted achieves this through the concept of deferred, which is confusing the first 6 or so times you see it. Gevent achieves it by being threads-but-not; other greenlets get a chance to run when you read from the network, so you can make blocking code that magically doesnt. Asyncio combines these: you can code in the gevent style, but must syntactically note what is going to block (solving the a calls b calls c calls d which reads from the network, which is one of the big issues with Gevent). If you want me to talk about why Gevent is not a free lunch, I will. For a game, it ends up not mattering which of these you use, believe it or not. There is a game loop on the server which processes available messages from clients every tick and queues up new ones to go out. The networking should probably be kept completely separate from this loop, or so shows my first failed prototype. Ive seen the problems I am describing in real code.Regardless, the first time you do network programming for the server side of things right, its going to feel very wrong. Incredibly so.Here are the estimates I have given myself for something akin to Swamp but more mud-like (quests, talking NPCs, etc): 1-6 months to finish Libaudioverse and write a simple game using it, 6 mon ths to write an online server/client pair that contain everything needed for building, scripting, and basic gameplay, and an additional year for testing and worldbuilding before a launch. Doing this successfully is not about knowing a specific programming language, believe it or not. You will get much, much further with creative architecture; turn-based stuff is simple, i.e. board games, but realtime games definitely require it. My blog posts may not help you yet, but Ill poke this thread with a link once I have the time to go tag everything, as I need to do a bunch of small stuff for my web site soon anyway. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185212#p185212 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? I wish to make a score-board for my game. So when people finish, they can click submit score and there will be a list of other peoples scores that their score will be compared against.I wish to do onboard programming, developing my app in python and C++, then just use the server for storing data that is submitted to it from the onboard games.Eventually I would like to have something like a store like Entombed has, and depending on how complex that is, move on to a chat client, and then storing and sending variable data, so everyone is sinked with the server so there can be multiplayer interactions.But first I just wish to create a score board. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185005#p185005 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Everything youve mentioned except full multiplayer is actually not so hard and, for a certain type of game, multiplayre isnt either. In this case, since its a client talking to a server, all you need is Django and perhaps the Django Rest Framework. You can do without that last one, however. Django will give you scoreboard serving in a day or two of work, though I make no statement as to the difficulty of the client (this varies widely depending on programming language). Id suggest looking at requests as well, a python library for calling HTTP-based APIs. I started learning these technologies, but am much more versed on how you make your own protocols and use the socket APIs, as this is what both of my MMO prototypes do.keep in mind that knowing exactly how HTTP works, i.e. low-level socket programming, isnt necessary. You need the basics of the internet, but after that point you can just pretend that its opaque and magical. This is what Django lets you do.The store is also the same sort of thing, only this time you need a request for the purchase and an error response. The error is required when two players might buy the same item: the request that gets there first wins, and the other player needs to know that that item no longer exists in the store. If done incorrectly, an online store can lead to item duplication bugs. The severity of this problem depends on the game.You can do board and card games through HTTp-based APIs, but youre now getting into places where Django will start to fall over. Django is all about responding to requests and stopping and not so much on-running processes. You can model a card game with django, but doing things like placing time limits is possibly a bit harder. Not impossible, but Id start looking to something else. For something like a card game, a custom JSON-based protocol is what Id consider. Alternatively, theres HTTp streaming, but neither fits well into Django as far as Im aware. This is the point when you want to maybe look at Twisted or Gevent. Its worth noting that Gevent looks great at first but falls down hard unless you really think hard, as it has a lot of magic going on. The difference between this and the previous two things is that you probably want to keep the connection open, and Django is not at all aimed at that (the end of an HTTp request, unless its HTTp streams, is the socket being closed by the server). it is worth mentioning Python 3s asyncio, which appears to combine the best of Twisted and Gevent and has people involved from both of them. I have not used this framework, but it does look really nice. If you look at Twisted and go [[wow]], thats complex, you are so far from alone that I cant even describe how far from a lone you are.A chat server is the same problem as a card or board game, but easier because you neednt worry about game logic. In both of these cases, security is a concern-especially if the intent is commercial.Full realtime multiplayer games are really, really hard algorithmically. The reason for this is that the network is not instant. If I do something, it takes anywhere from 20 ms (UDP, which adds a whole new set of complexities, and Im on a really good high-end internet package) to half a second or more for the server to know about it. The server then communicates this out to other players, all of which take anywhere from 20 MS to half a second or more. Syncing the data is easy. Making the game feel like its not molasses is really hard. If you design it poorly, both in coding and gameplay terms, I dont find out about things soon enough. If you shoot me and that update takes a whole second to get to my client, I have a whole second where the server thinks Im dead and I dont know I actually am. If the client has to wait on the server to say okay before letting me take every step, my movement speed depends on network round-trip time; everyone ends up moving at different speeds. These are surmountable problems and Id suggest looking up the quake and half-life protocols to understand it better. Once updates need to be noticed in less than 5 seconds or so, you need to start being creative.Alternatively, you can cheat and make the server very light-weight, sharing only a bit between them. In this case, you make everyone basically play their own game, except for some shared elements. Games in the sighted world that do this include Demons Souls (you can leave messages for others and invade for PK, but its never more than two players playing together). Ive heard that Swamp does a lot of this kind of thing from a lot of people, but never played it far enough to make it glaringly obvious to me what it does and doesnt share. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185009#p185009 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Isnt it possible to have django send commands to a client after a set time?so have something like:player sends:player: fredcommand: open the door to the dragonon the cliant I have a check:if open the door to the dragon: if not check_for_arg()sleep(5) if not check_for_arg() do_something_bad() else:do_something_good()Then that can be running on one thread while the player is getting stuff from their client and other threads.I dont know if a full on program can be run from a server, running many different threads at once, but I dont see why not... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185040#p185040 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? No. You do not stay connected. HTTp request/response pairs end with the connection closing, unless we are talking about HTTP streams. HTTP streams are a very special case, almost a hack, and Django does not support them in the manner you need. Im not aware of anything that does. Django gets a request and answers the request. It is bad practice and I believe requires a bunch of extra steps to keep the connection open for a long time because that blocks other requests or otherwise degrades performance. That is all. Django is not, in any way, for realtime online games that resemble Muds. Django will work fine for a scoring system because that is a request/response system-I ask for the scoreboard or say that this was my score today. Same with a store system, as thats got the same idea behind it-I request the list and say buy x of y-note that this doesnt solve allowing me to trivially lie about my money , and you have to completely trust clients to be telling the truth. By the time were on to allowing two players to trade directly, were talking about custom servers being easier by far, and anything beyond that or anything with time limits means its probably time to pull out the socket module and make our own protocol. Other things can work, but thats probably the path of least resistance.You cannot ever make a connection from a server to a client; the client must always initiate. This is true for 95% of users; the remaining 5% are those who know how to set up port forwarding and whom you have provided the needed info to. Do not be fooled by a technique known as hole-punching-you cant connect to my computer in any way unless software on my computer connects to your server first.I hate to say this because its discouraging. You may eventually be able to do an online game. You are far away from it, howe ver. The amount of information missing from your understanding of how this works is large enough that conveying it here simply isnt going to work. You need to research on your own, possibly looking for books or tutorials. Id start with how tcp works at a search engine, followed up by how http works. This article about using sockets with Python is how I put my first MMO prototype together. My blog contains an entire account of my adventures, but I didnt tag them so Id have to link all 7 or so articles individually (maybe Ill do that and post here again).My suggestion is this. Either make a single-player game to develop your programming skill more, develop some sort of simple online software like a blogging engine with something like Django, or both. You can add a high score system and a chat system to a single-player game, bu t the things you are suggesting will not work.Be very scared of the word thread. Very. Incredibly. The t-word is not the friend of programmers. The t-word is not always a mistake, far from it, but threads cause a very large number of problems-especially if you dont have a good understanding of how to use queues properly. Greenlet in Python is slightly better, but also pretty evil. Beware of client-side simulation, because thats so easy to hack its not funny (I can have whatever just by saying that I do, and you cant check it). Its also very difficult to get right. Clients should never identify themselves explicitly in requests: this is also unbelievably simple to abuse. The trick is to have a login procedure and to keep the connection open; you can identify me by my socket on the server, and then Alice cant pretend to be Bob.And drop HTTP. HTTP is a request/response system, th at is you get responses from the server to requests from the client. It seems to me that you have not fully grasped what this means. To repeat it one more time, the server does nothing at all unless the client asks for something. Youre going to need to learn socket programming. And I take back everything I said about not worrying about security: the things you are suggesting can be hacked in five minutes or less, most of us have the packages and whatnot installed to do it already, and the hacks can be bundled in nicely distributable scripts. I thought you were talking about locking down an Apache/Nginx configuration, not security in your code itself; I gave advice accordingly,.And finally, look at JSON. Most people do not shove all the information in the header like this-you have the ability to send along arbitrary information with post, so why not serialize entire python dicts? Django does contain support for this if you can use HTTP, otherwise you can use null-terminated strings over a socket (theres advantages to length-prefix, though. See the howto, it goes into that a bit).But really, I think you need to go to Stack Overflow. Theyve got people who do a generally good job on well thought-out questions, and youll be reading it all the time as a programmer anyway. Start with asking them about where to learn basic networking concepts, or better search stack overflow for such questions
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Youre right on ports.What kind of game are we talking about? Are you trying to do Swamp or are you trying to do something like Core Exiles? In the former case, you dont even use HTTP; HTTP is not really built for swamp-style gameplay. Its actually worth noting that swamp isnt as online as you think: you are seeing different zombies than everyone else, for example.And as for all this interconnection, if its a browser game like Kingdom of Loathing, you only need Django. Nothing more. Django does everything necessary for that.Swamp-like games are a whole different thing. You typically use a custom desktop client and a hand-written server, not the browser. Especially for audiogames, given the poor state of Webaudio-only Chrome has a full implementation, but nothing else on windows does.When we get into games that talk to web sites, theres two or three ways that Ive seen. Y ou can do what youre thinking and write an HTTP web-based API, but this is overkill. You can have the game write to a database and have the web site read from that database (probably the most common and what Id do). You can use something like Websockets to allow the web site to ask the game directly for the info. Pick 2 or 3, not 1. If the game is something like KoL, just make the game the web site and dont worry about talking back and forth between 3 apps. You seem to have a tendency to bring in way too many pieces.I can talk a bit about how things like swamp work, if thats the kind of info youre looking for. Aprone can probably say more, but we have different programming philosophies: Id never, ever settle for the kind of tricks Swamp uses to get around network limits and would much prefer something fully shared, where everyone sees the same thing always. This is what I am working towards with my b log articles and Libaudioverse (because why do it with less than the optimum audio experience?). I think that I can, but am probably a year or so out from it.Muds use TCP to transport data and speak the Telnet protocol on top of it. Theres not much to say about telnet. Its just another protocol, only this time its for talking about how wide your screen is and what youre typing at the mud clients input bar.The tutorials on how the web works dont really exist anymore. You can find them, but everyone seems to start off by hammering on Apache config files and the like until they work. Most people do not care about how HTTP works, and just want it to draw a smiley face or whatever. Typically, thats picked up a bit later, and developing a mud makes it happen faster (because Muds do not speak HTTP there are not many frameworks that hide it all away like Django). Keep in mind that the Django tutorials make Django look easy, but that it doesnt stay that way-it would be accurate to say that Django is probably the easiest approach I know, but theres a difference between easiest and simple. If you really want to know the gritty and very technical details, there are official specifications you can read for all of it (I had occasion to look at the TCP spec exactly once. I would never do that again). Most helpful, though, is googling http introduction or similar-there are some out there if you look explicitly for them.And finally, keep in mind that the internet is not like normal software. A bunch of different people worked on it all at the same time and all without close collaboration. Then, in the 70s and 80s, we started linking all of them together; in the 90s, the web browser became popular and the internet exploded; in the 2000s, we started having a huge explosion of games that, by now, blow World of Warcraft o ut of the water. The internet tends to be someone does it, someone else says good idea, so lets standardize it; most of us wish it was someone says this might be a good idea, someone experiments to see if it is, etc. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184732#p184732 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? So Django is a http only framework? That doesnt make any sense, because django is just the receiver on the server isnt it? So couldnt I just tell it to except a packet of info that says:codename = frastlinscore = 92005/codeand once those 2 lines of code are received by django on the server, cant I then take those values and post them in a score-board?I wish to make a score-board first, something like what entombed has.I dont think I need all the headers that http uses, I just need my custom lines of code. Almost like telnet, but 2 lines rather than 1. I wouldnt even need a protocol then would I? Or if I had one it would be called My custom Game Protocol wouldnt it?I dont really wish to make muds, but I can still go to Evenea if you think it would really help, but I use VIP Mud which hides what it is doing through my IP address.Granted, I would learn h ow to upload code to a vps and get it configured, but I still dont get the knowledge of what it is doing to send or receive code.So how can I make a score-board like what Entombed uses? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184764#p184764 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? There isnt one defined way to do that.Regarding http and Django, it would be more difficult to handle it in a non-http mannor.Like you said, there are a few options.1: A custom server side program that can receive incoming connections and sort them into the scoreboard as required.2: A php file that receives an http request with standard parameters like score.php?name=bobscore=12345.The main issue here is the security of it. These programs are generally easy to hack if you have the ability to view a programs network traffic, etc. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184769#p184769 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? So if I wish to do something simple should I take a look at PHP?I am not too worried about security at the moment, I think that will come after I have a working server.I googled what an HTTP request looks like and I think I could totaly use that format for sending my requests. For posting on score boards, I could send an incripted file with the info and then decript it on the server.The request would look something like:codePOST /path/file_with_score.sco HTTP1.1Host: www.myserver.comFrom: my-game-nameName: usernameKey: RegKeyContent-Type: allincoded-scorerandomlyincodedtextthatcanbeincodedontheserver/codeYes it could be hacked, but it would be kind of annoying I think... and it would be perfectly easy to create something to incript and decript that into info I could use.I just need to know how to create both a cliant and a server in python.I looked at the python library and what do you know, there is a socket module! So perhaps I can create a mud client like VIP Mud, just much more simple!That way I can start with what I know which is onboard programming and practice sending and receiving info.Does this sound like a good place to start? Then I can worry about server stuff once Im comfortable with working cliant-side. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184781#p184781 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? That could work.When sending data though your not sending a file as such, your sending raw data. Think of it as a flow of water between you and the recipient. socket wlil usually make sure your data is securely transferred. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184782#p184782 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Web development?
Re: Web development? Sockets are not HTTp and Django is not sockets. Django does one thing and one thing only: HTTP responses. This includes, as you have no doubt seen, all the other stuff to make an app out of them. But it will always be HTTp. Your scoreboard example is indeed fine, in that it is a client using an HTTp API to talk to a server-this is how I would do it too.Security is a concern, however. Those HTTP requests-should I know the format-are trivially easy to do. I can use my telnet client, curl, or any number of other programs. You would also want to use SSL here, because then I cant trivially use any of a number of command line utilities or GUI programs that others have written specifically to intercept and fake requests like yours. You debug your app with one of these, so obviously the hackers have it too.Please specify the end goal here. You are flailing around blindly among a bunch of technologies for a bunch of di fferent purposes, and have not clearly specified what you want when you are done. As a result, I am flailing around blindly and providing very broad explanations. I think more focused discussion aimed at specifically what you are wanting to do would be beneficial at this point. Making the mud client, for example, is only helpful for a certain type of thing-learning raw socket programming-and wont help with HTTP explicitly. Can you lay out exactly what you want to end up with at the end? There are at least 3 directions you can head in, each only tangentially related to the others and each accomplishing slightly different things. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184796#p184796 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
