RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Brian Butterworth wrote: I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too. The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_ foxsathdr. asp As are the Panasonic HD recorders: http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+% 26+Players /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it mentioned in any publicity. Ah well when Freesat's involved there's an inveitable issue here as so far there hasn't been an SD PVR in the range in order to distinguish between Freesat+ and Freesat HD+/+HD/whatever. The Freesat website basically pushes freesat+ as a HD DVR, and so far there are companies interested in manufacturering even the basic SD boxes. http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=products.Productstype_id=3 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On a side bar, the estimable @nevali is doing lovely work on an IPTV interface, incluing a far nicer Freeview logo! http://emberapp.com/nevali/images/services-menu a On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Brian Butterworth wrote: I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too. The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_ foxsathdr. asp As are the Panasonic HD recorders: http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+% 26+Players /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it mentioned in any publicity. Ah well when Freesat's involved there's an inveitable issue here as so far there hasn't been an SD PVR in the range in order to distinguish between Freesat+ and Freesat HD+/+HD/whatever. The Freesat website basically pushes freesat+ as a HD DVR, and so far there are companies interested in manufacturering even the basic SD boxes. http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=products.Productstype_id=3 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
September 30th? Oh no, not again. This all means I'll have had to retune my mother's TV and Freeview DVD recorder no fewer than four times within five weeks. She lives within the Carmel transmitter area, for which the dates were/are: August 26th (DSO1) September 9th (S4C moved to Mux B, Wales-wide) September 23rd (DSO2) September 30th (Mux B changes, UK-wide) It'll settle down after this, I hope... Rhys 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv It's not really being converted. The Freeview HD services are a cease and re-provide. After switch-over the multiplexes are known as BBCA, D3+4, BBCB, SDN, ARQA and ARQB or PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5 and COM6 (plus the MEN mux in Manchester). [helpful graphic snipped] 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Poor choice of words by me. Multiplex B is having the SD channels removed from it and is being converted to MPEG4 part 10 and DVB-T2 to allow HD channels to be transmitted. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still owns the multiplex. It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon four) public service HD channels. 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD services. First region on air is Granada later this year. 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.comhttp://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
What tosh. 2009/9/18 Tom Morris bbtommor...@gmail.com On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 18:19, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: BUT The plus denotes a PVR and two letter denote HD There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV Well, we've got: * Internet * Internet+ - lets you save files! * Internet HD - appears in high resolution * Internet HD+ - appears in high resolution AND lets you save files And of course there are different regulatory guidelines for each one. We haven't yet figured out how Internet HD+ is going to work, so let's consult with stakeholders and rightsholders but not users... The semantics of this have doomed it from the start: the job of the BBC and of the regulators and the broadcasting infrastructure is to get the stuff into my home. It's not a protocol-level issue, nor a branding issue, whether the content is high-resolution or not or whether, once I've got it, I record it onto a hard disk recorder or not. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
[backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error correction (not FEC) and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k). http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377 Basically, this is not a software upgrade! 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn brendan.qu...@bbc.co.uk Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals. But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the first box was announced five days ago, to be released in the first half of 2010: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h d-box/ I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3 It uses HDMI upscaling to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in HD, you will need to buy a new box :-( HTH, Brendan. [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for next-gen freeview: the T is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2 standards for HD over those platforms. [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before -- but it seems to work... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
[backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn brendan.qu...@bbc.co.uk Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1%0A0catid=2Itemid=3 I have an even older Topfield PVR, which doesn't even have an HDMI output (just scart), so that's guaranteed never to be upgradeable. On the other hand though, standard definition freeview looks good enough on my telly, plus I can record hours and hours worth of programmes, and even download them to a computer via a USB cable (admittedly, this takes ages) and re-encode to fit on an iPhone/iPod touch (requires buying an MPEG2 encoder licence for Quicktime) - all legally (though an absolute faff). If only I could stream BBC iPlayer direct to my TV via my Apple TV box, I wouldn't really ever need a Freeview HD box. Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Cynically, who wants to guess what proportion of HD Ready TV owners a) think they're already watching HD content on Freeview Probably a similar amount to those who have boxes set to 4:3 centre cut out, which is then stretched to 16:9 by their TV :( - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2. Wikipedia suggests at least 35. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error correction (not FEC) and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k). http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377 Basically, this is not a software upgrade! 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn brendan.qu...@bbc.co.uk Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals. But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the first box was announced five days ago, to be released in the first half of 2010: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h d-box/http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h%0Ad-box/ I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1%0A0catid=2Itemid=3 It uses HDMI upscaling to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in HD, you will need to buy a new box :-( HTH, Brendan. [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for next-gen freeview: the T is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2 standards for HD over those platforms. [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before -- but it seems to work... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Freeview+ is the name of the Freeview PVR/DVR. Freeview HD will be called, Freeview HD. 2009/9/17 Ant Miller ant.mil...@gmail.com Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called) will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared around them. The New mux will be a part of the main digital switch over process from the Granada switch onwards, with advance broadcasts in enough areas to make HD a possible service for a decent majority of the population by the time of the World Cup. Yes, by the middle of next year, a very large part of the UK TV audience will have the option to buy kit that will let them watch HD over terrestrial digital broadcast at home using their existing TV ariel. The bandwidth is moderate- improvements in carrier (256 QAM) and video compression (h.264) have given the broadcasters about 50% more capacity for a given bit of spectrum. Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a critical task, and one that a phenomenal amount of effort is going onto- in fact the whole DVB-T2 story is one of incredibly good AND quick research, development and engineering, driven along by frighteningly tight regulatory deadlines. To be honest, slotting additional DRM requirements at this stage looks like adding a horrid additional complication to an already mind bending engineering challenge, and perhaps more importantly, could break the delicate public trust the roll-out depends upon. All of the above is based on my personnal opinion and understanding based on public domain discussions, especially from the IBC conference last week. It is not the BBC's official possition. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Please see http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051316 http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051316and http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377 http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377and (for dates) http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051590 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.comhttp://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still owns the multiplex. It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon four) public service HD channels. 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD services. First region on air is Granada later this year. 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.comhttp://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
Wikipedia is wrong (that's a suprise). The carrying capacity is 30Mbps, according to the specification. 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net 30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2. Wikipedia suggests at least 35. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error correction (not FEC) and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k). http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377 Basically, this is not a software upgrade! 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn brendan.qu...@bbc.co.uk Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals. But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the first box was announced five days ago, to be released in the first half of 2010: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h d-box/http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h%0Ad-box/ I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1%0A0catid=2Itemid=3 It uses HDMI upscaling to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in HD, you will need to buy a new box :-( HTH, Brendan. [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for next-gen freeview: the T is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2 standards for HD over those platforms. [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before -- but it seems to work... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 09:54 +0100, Frankie Roberto wrote: ... If only I could stream BBC iPlayer direct to my TV via my Apple TV box, I wouldn't really ever need a Freeview HD box. I have created an iPlayer streaming proxy for Unix/Linux/OSX/Win32 to do just this. Not actually tried it with an Apple TV box (I don't own one) but it does stream mov, flv, mp3, aac from iPlayer flash programmes, local files and BBC live TV/radio streams. google for 'Web PVR Manager'. Specifically look at the README for examples of how to create dynamic M3U iPlayer playlists and streaming URLs based on programme names/episodes etc. I also use it to browse and stream the flash AAC live radio and listen-again (mp3,aac,real) streams to my Squeezebox and it works a treat :-) - P Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
Last time I checked the Blue book it didn't mention bitrates: http://www.dvb.org/technology/standards/a122r1.tm3980r7.DVB-T2.pdf And the last time I saw the chairman of the DVB-T2 technical module speaking he mentioned 36 Mbps: 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Wikipedia is wrong (that's a suprise). The carrying capacity is 30Mbps, according to the specification. 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net 30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2. Wikipedia suggests at least 35. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error correction (not FEC) and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k). http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377 Basically, this is not a software upgrade! 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn brendan.qu...@bbc.co.uk Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals. But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the first box was announced five days ago, to be released in the first half of 2010: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h d-box/http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h%0Ad-box/ I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1%0A0catid=2Itemid=3 It uses HDMI upscaling to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in HD, you will need to buy a new box :-( HTH, Brendan. [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for next-gen freeview: the T is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2 standards for HD over those platforms. [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before -- but it seems to work... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Poor choice of words by me. Multiplex B is having the SD channels removed from it and is being converted to MPEG4 part 10 and DVB-T2 to allow HD channels to be transmitted. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still owns the multiplex. It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon four) public service HD channels. 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD services. First region on air is Granada later this year. 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.comhttp://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account
Re: [backstage] Re: Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
Simon, I might be wrong, but I'm sure that when you put in the parameters that are being used in the UK for DVB-T2 you get 30Mbps of post-error corrected data. It's quite possible that they have changed the parameters to provide 36Mbps, but my understanding was that 30Mbps is what you will get to get the correct 98.5% coverage. I'm quite happy to be wrong about this, but I would like more proof than Wikipedia... It my experience that people talk up bitrates in the same way that they do hard drive sizes. Being an old hand in broadcast data transmission, I always use 2^10 for my k and 2^20 for my M and so on. Other people use 10^3 and 10^6 and this effects the result... 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Last time I checked the Blue book it didn't mention bitrates: http://www.dvb.org/technology/standards/a122r1.tm3980r7.DVB-T2.pdf And the last time I saw the chairman of the DVB-T2 technical module speaking he mentioned 36 Mbps: 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Wikipedia is wrong (that's a suprise). The carrying capacity is 30Mbps, according to the specification. 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net 30 Mbps is a bit of a low estimate for T2. Wikipedia suggests at least 35. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Briefly, DVB-T2 uses MPEG4 delivered in a 30Mbps (compare 18Mbps and 24Mps) multiplex using 256QAM (compared with 16QAM and 64QAM) with LDPC/BCH error correction (not FEC) and 32k carriers (compare 2k and 8k). http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051377 Basically, this is not a software upgrade! 2009/9/17 Brendan Quinn brendan.qu...@bbc.co.uk Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals. But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the first box was announced five days ago, to be released in the first half of 2010: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h d-box/http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h%0Ad-box/ I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1%0A0catid=2Itemid=3 It uses HDMI upscaling to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in HD, you will need to buy a new box :-( HTH, Brendan. [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for next-gen freeview: the T is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2 standards for HD over those platforms. [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before -- but it seems to work... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Yup, my bad. In my defense, it's all a bit complex, and the slides I saw didn't make the distinction clear. Still and all, to get back to the original thread subject, I've seen no sign of a broadcast flag or even CPCM being shoe horned into either the DSO or HD roll out. a On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: Freeview+ is the name of the Freeview PVR/DVR. Freeview HD will be called, Freeview HD. 2009/9/17 Ant Miller ant.mil...@gmail.com Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called) will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared around them. The New mux will be a part of the main digital switch over process from the Granada switch onwards, with advance broadcasts in enough areas to make HD a possible service for a decent majority of the population by the time of the World Cup. Yes, by the middle of next year, a very large part of the UK TV audience will have the option to buy kit that will let them watch HD over terrestrial digital broadcast at home using their existing TV ariel. The bandwidth is moderate- improvements in carrier (256 QAM) and video compression (h.264) have given the broadcasters about 50% more capacity for a given bit of spectrum. Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a critical task, and one that a phenomenal amount of effort is going onto- in fact the whole DVB-T2 story is one of incredibly good AND quick research, development and engineering, driven along by frighteningly tight regulatory deadlines. To be honest, slotting additional DRM requirements at this stage looks like adding a horrid additional complication to an already mind bending engineering challenge, and perhaps more importantly, could break the delicate public trust the roll-out depends upon. All of the above is based on my personnal opinion and understanding based on public domain discussions, especially from the IBC conference last week. It is not the BBC's official possition. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
It's not really being converted. The Freeview HD services are a cease and re-provide. After switch-over the multiplexes are known as BBCA, D3+4, BBCB, SDN, ARQA and ARQB or PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5 and COM6 (plus the MEN mux in Manchester). 2009/9/18 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Poor choice of words by me. Multiplex B is having the SD channels removed from it and is being converted to MPEG4 part 10 and DVB-T2 to allow HD channels to be transmitted. 2009/9/18 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv Multiplex B aka PSB3 aka BBCB is not VACATED by the BBC, BBC FTV Ltd still owns the multiplex. It is being used for Freeview HD carrying three (soon four) public service HD channels. 2009/9/17 Simon Thompson st...@zepler.net Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD services. First region on air is Granada later this year. 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.comhttp://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 01:01, Mr I Forrester mail...@cubicgarden.comwrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as HD Ready). But to be fair, whos's fault is that? Ian It doesn't matter whose at fault (especially as blame would have to spread across Ofcom, freeview, the broadcasters, the retailers, the manufacturers and the public themselves). If what matters is Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls, then that's probably not going to happen in a lot of HD Ready households.
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service 2009/9/18 Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 01:01, Mr I Forrester mail...@cubicgarden.comwrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as HD Ready). But to be fair, whos's fault is that? Ian It doesn't matter whose at fault (especially as blame would have to spread across Ofcom, freeview, the broadcasters, the retailers, the manufacturers and the public themselves). If what matters is Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls, then that's probably not going to happen in a lot of HD Ready households. -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Brian Butterworth wrote: Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service As an aside, the two types of Freesat receiver we have in the office are marked Freesat HD and Freesat+. But the Freesat+ box does HD as well as PVR. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD... 2009/9/18 Gareth Davis gareth.da...@bbc.co.uk Brian Butterworth wrote: Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service As an aside, the two types of Freesat receiver we have in the office are marked Freesat HD and Freesat+. But the Freesat+ box does HD as well as PVR. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Brian Butterworth wrote: I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too. The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr. asp As are the Panasonic HD recorders: http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it mentioned in any publicity. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
BUT The plus denotes a PVR and two letter denote HD There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV 2009/9/18 Gareth Davis gareth.da...@bbc.co.uk Brian Butterworth wrote: I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too. The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr. asp As are the Panasonic HD recorders: http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it mentioned in any publicity. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
To be honest I saw a lot of confusing presentation of logos in the DVB-T2 presentation at IBC. It's a personal point but I happen to think the Freeview logo is an absolute dog of design, and all the + and HD tack ons are awful. Still waddo I know?! a On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: BUT The plus denotes a PVR and two letter denote HD There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV 2009/9/18 Gareth Davis gareth.da...@bbc.co.uk Brian Butterworth wrote: I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too. The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr. asp As are the Panasonic HD recorders: http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it mentioned in any publicity. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Ant, I totally agree about the Freeview logo. When I was a kid you could get Cooper Black[1] in Boots The Chemist dry transfer lettering (poor man's Letraset). Everytime I see it I just think of the layouts I did at school using a typewriter (before the school has a printer) and Cooper Black. I've even got some it in a box of old things somewhere. Does anyone like the BBC HD logo? [1] http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/cooper-black/ 2009/9/18 Ant Miller ant.mil...@gmail.com To be honest I saw a lot of confusing presentation of logos in the DVB-T2 presentation at IBC. It's a personal point but I happen to think the Freeview logo is an absolute dog of design, and all the + and HD tack ons are awful. Still waddo I know?! a On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: BUT The plus denotes a PVR and two letter denote HD There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV 2009/9/18 Gareth Davis gareth.da...@bbc.co.uk Brian Butterworth wrote: I thought we were talking about FreeVIEW HD. Freesat is named the same, Freesat+ is the PVR, Freesat HD is the HD service, Freesat+ HD is the PVR with HD We were talking about Freeview, however if it follows the same conventions as Freesat then Freeview+ can mean HD too. The Humax Freesat HD PVR is branded Freesat+, see here: http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_satellite_foxsathdr . asp As are the Panasonic HD recorders: http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/DVD+Recorders+%26+Players /DIGA+DVD+Recorders/DMR-XS350/Overview/2359654/index.html I've yet to see a device branded Freesat+ HD, and I've not seen it mentioned in any publicity. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 15:54, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tvwrote: Once again, Freeview+ is the PVR, Freeview HD is the HD service I know that, I was requoting Ant's minor slipup of using Freeview+ for FreeviewHD
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 18:19, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: BUT The plus denotes a PVR and two letter denote HD There's no wonder 8% of the public think the TVL pays for ITV Well, we've got: * Internet * Internet+ - lets you save files! * Internet HD - appears in high resolution * Internet HD+ - appears in high resolution AND lets you save files And of course there are different regulatory guidelines for each one. We haven't yet figured out how Internet HD+ is going to work, so let's consult with stakeholders and rightsholders but not users... The semantics of this have doomed it from the start: the job of the BBC and of the regulators and the broadcasting infrastructure is to get the stuff into my home. It's not a protocol-level issue, nor a branding issue, whether the content is high-resolution or not or whether, once I've got it, I record it onto a hard disk recorder or not. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
I totally agree about the Freeview logo. When I was a kid you could get Cooper Black[1] in Boots The Chemist dry transfer lettering (poor man's Letraset). Everytime I see it I just think of the layouts I did at school using a typewriter (before the school has a printer) and Cooper Black. I've even got some it in a box of old things somewhere. Does anyone like the BBC HD logo? It's amost right - that two-tone effect they have on the joined verticals of the HD always looks like pixelation or an encoding flaw to my subconscious mind, which then makes me focus on it and wastes that valuable viewing time ;) and it must be using far more bits to encode the difference when they could just be using a solid black fill for the whole thing. Seems a bit wasteful and quite distracting to be honest. BBC HD dog needs to be done away with completely 100% of the time, imho. I've laboriously tuned to the BBC HD channel myself and should I have a bout of sudden-onset amnesia, I always have the EPG to remind me. Otherwise I always know exactly which channel I'm watching. (yes, I'm a fan of DOGless TV!)
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
2009/9/16 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html BBC wants to put DRM on the TV Brits are forced to pay for It's worth noting that this applies ONLY to HD DTV (Freeview), which barely even exists yet. So don't throw away your Freeview boxes just yet. I can't see a switchover from Freeview to Freeview HD happening any time soon... Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
2009/9/17 Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com It's worth noting that this applies ONLY to HD DTV (Freeview), which barely even exists yet. So don't throw away your Freeview boxes just yet. I can't see a switchover from Freeview to Freeview HD happening any time soon... This is some interesting speculation: *It’s not the BBC asking for this. They’re being held over a barrel by third-party rightsholders, from whom they’re obligated under their charter to obtain a substantial proportion of their programming!* *I suspect the best thing that could happen would be for OFCOM to unambiguously refuse that permission. Doing so would substantially strengthen the BBC’s negotiating position with rightsholders; “Well, we would do as you ask, but we think it’s would be a violation of long-standing principle and contrary to the public interest. More to the point, our regulator agrees with us.”* *Indeed, I suspect this is exactly the response that the BBC is privately hoping for. They don’t want to do this.* http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/2009/09/personal-video-recorders-ofcom-consultation-indicates-that-the-bbc-want-to-make-yours-obsolete/#comment-84732 Wonder if that is indeed that case... Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. The Beeb should be pointing to what happened with the Broadcast Flag in the States as the perfect case study! The US TV industry hasn't imploded as a result of the Broadcast Flag requirement being dropped, and the world continues to turn in a regular fashion. Why are rightsholders so scared of fully engaging with technology? Metaphor of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted and subsequently gone on to win the Grand National comes to mind. Further reading http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/06/dtv-era-no-broadcast
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non- enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called) will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared around them. The New mux will be a part of the main digital switch over process from the Granada switch onwards, with advance broadcasts in enough areas to make HD a possible service for a decent majority of the population by the time of the World Cup. Yes, by the middle of next year, a very large part of the UK TV audience will have the option to buy kit that will let them watch HD over terrestrial digital broadcast at home using their existing TV ariel. The bandwidth is moderate- improvements in carrier (256 QAM) and video compression (h.264) have given the broadcasters about 50% more capacity for a given bit of spectrum. Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a critical task, and one that a phenomenal amount of effort is going onto- in fact the whole DVB-T2 story is one of incredibly good AND quick research, development and engineering, driven along by frighteningly tight regulatory deadlines. To be honest, slotting additional DRM requirements at this stage looks like adding a horrid additional complication to an already mind bending engineering challenge, and perhaps more importantly, could break the delicate public trust the roll-out depends upon. All of the above is based on my personnal opinion and understanding based on public domain discussions, especially from the IBC conference last week. It is not the BBC's official possition. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Ofcom is going to use Multiplex B (vacated by the BBC) to provide DVB-T2 HD services. First region on air is Granada later this year. 2009/9/17 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Will we ever see HD freeview though? The bandwidth requirement would be enormous. On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:53, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/17 Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk chris...@infinitus.co.uk Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. By the sounds of it, the main 'enforcement' mechanism of the metadata compression/encryption isn't so much technological, as the fact that you won't be able to use the Freeview HD logo, or be listed on the Freeview website, without signing for a free licence (which requires you to implement some as-yet-unspecified restrictions). Which won't really stop free software from existing - but may stop it from being a commercial success. That said, I wonder how many people will really bother to upgrade from Freeview to Freeview HD anyway - standard definition Freeview seems good enough for most people (especially those with non-enormous tellies). So the migration to Freeview HD will happen slowly, as people upgrade their televisions as part of their natural lifecycle. (Assuming that the signal doesn't get switched off). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.comhttp://www.rattlecentral.com This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Simon Thompson GMAIL Account
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Ant Miller wrote: Freeview and freeview+ (as the DVB-T2 carried HD mux is to be called) will exist in parallel- the number of muxes will drop from 6 to 5, one will go to DVB-t2, the other 4 will up their capacity with a little tweak and reshuffled channels from the flipped mux will be shared around them. And the shuffling starts at the end of this month. Everyone will need to rescan their Freeview STBs and IDTVs on the 30th September. More details here: http://www.freeview.co.uk/freeview/Resolutions/About-Channels/Retuning/F reeview-national-retune-30-September-2009 ... which also suggests Freeview HD in London from December this year. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? On 17 Sep 2009, at 17:52, Ant Miller ant.mil...@gmail.com wrote: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
I don't know the topfield box, but it's unlikely it can decode the new carrier mode. h.264 it might be able to handle, but it would be a surprise. So no, the HD will need a new box. Optional upgrade, not a free upgrade! Though the broadcast service will remain free to air. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? On 17 Sep 2009, at 17:52, Ant Miller ant.mil...@gmail.com wrote: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. a On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.ukpentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Freeview HD vs existing HDMI upscaling freeview boxes (was RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?)
Alan wrote: I assume my topfield HD will be out of date with these proposed changes? Ant replied: You'll need to retune, but the services you currently get on Freeview should still be available. Think of Freeview + as an optional upgrade. To which Alun wrote: I meant in terms of the HD element if they are changing the spec? If there is a decryption requirement I doubt the Topfield will have it? I would say you're right, your box wont' receive HD freeview signals. But that's not (only) because of any encryption, it's because the spec for encoding HD over freeview [1] was only agreed last week and the first box was announced five days ago, to be released in the first half of 2010: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/09/12/pace-unveils-dvb-t2-freeview-h d-box/ I guess you have this box [2]: http://www.topfield.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=1 0catid=2Itemid=3 It uses HDMI upscaling to work with your HD TV. But it's not actually processing the real freeview HD signal and never can -- your box needs different chips to be able to do that. So to actually see Freeview HD in HD, you will need to buy a new box :-( HTH, Brendan. [1] known as DVB-T2. The DVB are the standards committee for most TV standards in Europe, India, Australia etc. The BBC is a member. DVB-T was the standard for regular freeview, so DVB-T2 is the standard for next-gen freeview: the T is for terrestrial. You can guess that DVB-C is for cable and DVB-S is for satellite... They also have C2 and S2 standards for HD over those platforms. [2] URL edited for brevity -- yes it was much longer than that before -- but it seems to work... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 17:29, Ant Miller ant.mil...@gmail.com wrote: Keeping audiences happy as DSO happens and Freeview+ rolls out is a critical task, I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as HD Ready).
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as HD Ready). But to be fair, whos's fault is that? Ian - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as HD Ready). Prime opportunity to flog another STB / CAM to correctly display broadcast flagged content on pre-BCF-compatible displays? Do I hear the usual suspects (Panny, Alba, Sony, Humax etc) getting in line for tender as I speak? ;)
RE: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 15:50 +0100, Christopher Woods wrote: Moreover, you just *know* that within months of any broadcast flag implementation, the more creative technological tinkerers will have subverted the flag entirely using commonplace/free equipment and software. Like region coding, broadcast flags really are an exercise in stupidity and corporate backslapping. The Beeb should be pointing to what happened with the Broadcast Flag in the States as the perfect case study! The US TV industry hasn't imploded as a result of the Broadcast Flag requirement being dropped, and the world continues to turn in a regular fashion. Why are rightsholders so scared of fully engaging with technology? Metaphor of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted and subsequently gone on to win the Grand National comes to mind. Further reading http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/06/dtv-era-no-broadcast I actually think your on to something with that case study! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
On 18/09/2009, Mr I Forrester mail...@cubicgarden.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 22:04 +0100, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: I think that there's going to be a lot of unhappy freeview HDTV owners wondering why the TV they have recently bought isn't picking up the new HD channels when they're launched (especially as the TV was probably sold as HD Ready). But to be fair, whos's fault is that? Cynically, who wants to guess what proportion of HD Ready TV owners a) think they're already watching HD content on Freeview, b) understand what HD Ready means, and c) bought from those clever DSG staff who could answer b)? A small gripe, even back in 2005, but the older HD Ready standard didn't require the TV to be able to display even a native 720p frame without horizontal scaling. More importantly for the content producers, it did have to support HDCP... Cheers, Nick -- Nick Morrott MythTV Official wiki: http://mythtv.org/wiki/ MythTV users list archive: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest. - Benjamin Franklin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
I was going to post about this when I saw the original document, but I'm ashamed to say I didn't get around to it, so here is the EFF on it... http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-ukThe BBC has indicated that third party content owners are seeking to ensure that reception equipment will implement ... copy protection. Because [these] requirements are not mandatory, representatives of content owners have asked the BBC to take steps to ensure that reception equipment will implement the specified content management arrangements. Probably should do an FoI request to find out who the third party content owners are... -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
At a guess it is the parties that paid large sums of money to acquire or create the content. Sent from my dog On 16 Sep 2009, at 07:52, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: I was going to post about this when I saw the original document, but I'm ashamed to say I didn't get around to it, so here is the EFF on it... http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk The BBC has indicated that third party content owners are seeking to ensure that reception equipment will implement ... copy protection. Because [these] requirements are not mandatory, representatives of content owners have asked the BBC to take steps to ensure that reception equipment will implement the specified content management arrangements. Probably should do an FoI request to find out who the third party content owners are... -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ROOT 6 LIMITED Registered in the UK at 4 WARDOUR MEWS, LONDON W1F 8AJ Company No. 03433253 inline: email_sig_banner.jpginline: email_sig_logo.jpg
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/15/bbc-wants-to-put-drm.html BBC wants to put DRM on the TV Brits are forced to pay for 2009/9/16 Rupert Watson rup...@root6.com At a guess it is the parties that paid large sums of money to acquire or create the content. Ah, those lovely people at PACT. Sent from my dog On 16 Sep 2009, at 07:52, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: I was going to post about this when I saw the original document, but I'm ashamed to say I didn't get around to it, so here is the EFF on it... http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-ukThe BBC has indicated that third party content owners are seeking to ensure that reception equipment will implement ... copy protection. Because [these] requirements are not mandatory, representatives of content owners have asked the BBC to take steps to ensure that reception equipment will implement the specified content management arrangements. Probably should do an FoI request to find out who the third party content owners are... -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tvhttp://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ [image: banner] [image: root6 logo] http:/www.root6.com/ *root6 ltd* Registered in the UK at: 4 Wardour Mews, London W1F 8AJ Tel: +44 (0) 20 7437 6052 Company No. 03433253 -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 email_sig_logo.jpgemail_sig_banner.jpg
Re: [backstage] License to Kill Innovation: the Broadcast Flag for UK Digital TV?
Rupert Watson wrote: At a guess it is the parties that paid large sums of money to acquire or create the content. Boingboing seemed to think it was a DRM consortium that had prompted the move. Sent from my dog Loving it, wish my dog could answer email for me! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
