Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Hi,
Thank you so much for this extremely informative and well throughout email.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 19:46, Travis Siegel  wrote:

> Just a quit explanatory email to address some of the issues raised, and
> (possibly) explain why python is so popular.
>
> First off, languages like python, java perl and ruby  are interpreted
> languages, not compiled ones.  This means, that by their very nature,
> they will be slower than compiled languages like pascal, C or C++.
>
> There's not much that can be done about that, it's just the nature of
> the way the language is designed. Sure, there's some java tricks that
> can speed up the execution to near native speeds, but that's something
> that has had a lot of work put into it, and java is a much older
> language than python, so you can't expect the same performance from
> unoptimized interpreters.
> That said, there are ways to quote compile unquote python code, but
> truly, this doesn't really convert the python code into machine language
> (which is what the computer needs to execute something natively), it's
> normally just a method of embedding an interpreter into the executable,
> so a stand-alone python interpreter isn't necessary.  Of course, this
> isn't getting into things like just in time compilation,, object code,
> and machine specific optimization some compilers introduce, things can
> get complicated in a hurry.
> But in general, suffice it to say interpreted is always going to be
> slower than compiled.
> With that said,
> Python is only the latest in a long line of languages that were built
> for readability, ease of use, and simplicity.
> This doesn't make it better than other languages, it only makes it the
> current crowd favorite.  Give it 5 or ten or twenty years, and there
> will be something new.  In the 90s, it was java, in the 80s, it was
> basic, and no doubt it will be something different in a decade or two.
> I personally hate python, but the reasons are primarily due to personal
> preference as opposed to any real technical reason, (though they do
> exist too), but for the most part, I can use it well enough, and get
> along well enough to accomplish the task I set out to do.  I'd honestly
> rather use a language like Power basic, Pascal, or C (depending on what
> I'm trying to accomplish).  I'm fairly well versed in some two dozen
> programming languages, and each one has it's strengths and weaknesses,
> and for the most part, if I'm programming on windows, I use powerbasic.
> If I'm programming on unix type oses, I'll use C, and if I'm working on
> something that absolutely has to be cross platform, I'll generally use
> pascal, because the free pascal compiler has versions for each and every
> platform I'd need to support.  C can be used for this too, but
> sometimes, differences in system implementations causes modifications to
> be necessary on some platforms, so I use pascal, and prevent that problem.
> Each programmer has their preferred languages, and each one will give
> you different reasons why they like those choices.
> There's nothing wrong with that, if the language in question can handle
> the task, then it doesn't matter if it's something you made up on a
> friday night after too many beers (I could name a few), or if it's a
> language that has decades of support behind it, if it does the job, then
> it shouldn't matter what is used.
> Of course, some languages are better for some things than others, but it
> doesn't matter how good the language is for something if you aren't
> comfortable with it, and actively dislike the language, you won't
> accomplish your task properly with issues like that holding you back.
> Should python be used for every project?
> Absolutely not, though you'll meet folks that claim it should.
> Nor should C or C++ be used for everything, there's a reason why there
> are so many programming languages, and no language is any more important
> than any other, they can all do the same things given enough time and
> resources, and that's where the choices come in.  It's considerably
> faster to throw a few python functions together, and drop it into your
> current project, than it is to rewrite a lot of that functionality from
> scratch in a language that doesn't have pre-existing functions to do the
> tasks, and that more than anything else is why it's gotten so popular.
> This email got a whole lot longer than I intended, and I apologize for
> that, but even gaming discussion groups can benefit from programming
> discussions, considering folks always want to know how easy it is to
> write a game, so I don't truly feel like this is off topic.
> Of course, I've been flamed/kicked off groups for less, so  
>
>
> On 2/15/2021 11:42 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
> > Hi Chris,
> > If I implied that Python was evil based on irrefutable evidence, then
> > that was definitely not my intention. Indeed, it is apparently the
> > third most popular programming language behind C and 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Travis Siegel]

Just a quit explanatory email to address some of the issues raised, and 
(possibly) explain why python is so popular.


First off, languages like python, java perl and ruby  are interpreted 
languages, not compiled ones.  This means, that by their very nature, 
they will be slower than compiled languages like pascal, C or C++.


There's not much that can be done about that, it's just the nature of 
the way the language is designed. Sure, there's some java tricks that 
can speed up the execution to near native speeds, but that's something 
that has had a lot of work put into it, and java is a much older 
language than python, so you can't expect the same performance from 
unoptimized interpreters.
That said, there are ways to quote compile unquote python code, but 
truly, this doesn't really convert the python code into machine language 
(which is what the computer needs to execute something natively), it's 
normally just a method of embedding an interpreter into the executable, 
so a stand-alone python interpreter isn't necessary.  Of course, this 
isn't getting into things like just in time compilation,, object code, 
and machine specific optimization some compilers introduce, things can 
get complicated in a hurry.
But in general, suffice it to say interpreted is always going to be 
slower than compiled.

With that said,
Python is only the latest in a long line of languages that were built 
for readability, ease of use, and simplicity.
This doesn't make it better than other languages, it only makes it the 
current crowd favorite.  Give it 5 or ten or twenty years, and there 
will be something new.  In the 90s, it was java, in the 80s, it was 
basic, and no doubt it will be something different in a decade or two.
I personally hate python, but the reasons are primarily due to personal 
preference as opposed to any real technical reason, (though they do 
exist too), but for the most part, I can use it well enough, and get 
along well enough to accomplish the task I set out to do.  I'd honestly 
rather use a language like Power basic, Pascal, or C (depending on what 
I'm trying to accomplish).  I'm fairly well versed in some two dozen 
programming languages, and each one has it's strengths and weaknesses, 
and for the most part, if I'm programming on windows, I use powerbasic.  
If I'm programming on unix type oses, I'll use C, and if I'm working on 
something that absolutely has to be cross platform, I'll generally use 
pascal, because the free pascal compiler has versions for each and every 
platform I'd need to support.  C can be used for this too, but 
sometimes, differences in system implementations causes modifications to 
be necessary on some platforms, so I use pascal, and prevent that problem.
Each programmer has their preferred languages, and each one will give 
you different reasons why they like those choices.
There's nothing wrong with that, if the language in question can handle 
the task, then it doesn't matter if it's something you made up on a 
friday night after too many beers (I could name a few), or if it's a 
language that has decades of support behind it, if it does the job, then 
it shouldn't matter what is used.
Of course, some languages are better for some things than others, but it 
doesn't matter how good the language is for something if you aren't 
comfortable with it, and actively dislike the language, you won't 
accomplish your task properly with issues like that holding you back.

Should python be used for every project?
Absolutely not, though you'll meet folks that claim it should.
Nor should C or C++ be used for everything, there's a reason why there 
are so many programming languages, and no language is any more important 
than any other, they can all do the same things given enough time and 
resources, and that's where the choices come in.  It's considerably 
faster to throw a few python functions together, and drop it into your 
current project, than it is to rewrite a lot of that functionality from 
scratch in a language that doesn't have pre-existing functions to do the 
tasks, and that more than anything else is why it's gotten so popular.
This email got a whole lot longer than I intended, and I apologize for 
that, but even gaming discussion groups can benefit from programming 
discussions, considering folks always want to know how easy it is to 
write a game, so I don't truly feel like this is off topic.

Of course, I've been flamed/kicked off groups for less, so  


On 2/15/2021 11:42 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi Chris,
If I implied that Python was evil based on irrefutable evidence, then 
that was definitely not my intention. Indeed, it is apparently the 
third most popular programming language behind C and Java (according 
to Wikipedia), and most of its output is perfectly usable.
I myself use NVDA as my primary screen reader, which is 85% Python 
driven (according to GitHub). I use two Python-powered apps for my 
virtual change ringing practice sessions. And I 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

se
>>> <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.promises.html> types,
>>> to the scheduling features provided by pyglet.clock
>>> <https://pyglet.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/clock.html>.
>>>
>>> What there *isn't* yet, is filters. This is because they're not yet in
>>> Synthizer.
>>>
>>> There is reverb and delay though, so you've got your two main fx covered.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Chris Norman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 11:29, john  wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've also recently been looking into various game engines myself
>>>> (mostly rust-based), but this sounds pretty interesting as well. My current
>>>> conundrum is around getting something that has actual genuinely accurate
>>>> sound panning; how is Earwax for that? Ideally I'd like to be able to pass
>>>> it either a degree value (from centered) or use a linear scale that
>>>> actually maps itself directly to degrees, so that when an object is
>>>> directly left, there's *zero*! audio in the right speaker, and when the
>>>> object is at a 45 degree offset, one side is at half volume. Most games
>>>> I've played seem to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to
>>>> have to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic of
>>>> game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real
>>>> handling of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that case I can
>>>> pretty easily make up the difference in an audio editor if needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>>>> I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try it,
>>>> I'd love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues, so I can fix
>>>> 'em! :)
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>> Chris Norman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>>>>>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
>>>>> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
>>>>> Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
>>>>> <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be
>>>>> more familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework
>>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
>>>>>  (for
>>>>> want of a better name), and pyAGE
>>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
>>>>>  (which
>>>>> is still very much in its early stages).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
>>>>> work, there's Godot Accessibility
>>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
>>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on
>>>>> the audiogames.net forum.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and
>>>>> probably some other stuff in C# too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>&g

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Jacob Kruger]

tting something that has actual genuinely
accurate sound panning; how is Earwax for that? Ideally
I'd like to be able to pass it either a degree value
(from centered) or use a linear scale that actually maps
itself directly to degrees, so that when an object is
directly left, there's *zero*! audio in the right
speaker, and when the object is at a 45 degree offset,
one side is at half volume. Most games I've played seem
to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to
have to get into decibels and logarithms, but since
we're on the topic of game engines here, it can't hurt
to ask.

Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded
for real handling of behind-the-player processing, but
at least in that case I can pretty easily make up the
difference in an audio editor if needed.


Best,

John


On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io
<http://groups.io> wrote:
I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if
you do try it, I'd love to know how you get on. Also,
please submit issues, so I can fix 'em! :)

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss
mailto:sm.ever...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked
at it.



On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io
<http://groups.io> wrote:


Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any
documentation for it.

*From:* blind-gamers@groups.io
<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io>

<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*Chris Norman via groups.io <http://groups.io>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
    *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and
programming questions

Hi,

There are a few different audio game engines for
Python, these include Earwax
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
<https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is
supposed to be more familiar to those coming from
BGT, Framework

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
 (for
want of a better name), and pyAGE

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
 (which
is still very much in its early stages).

If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't
mind a little more work, there's Godot
Accessibility

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>.

Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this
thread

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on
the audiogames.net <http://audiogames.net> forum.

There are others, namely MonoGame
<https://www.monogame.net/>, and probably some
other stuff in C# too.

Other than that, please just do everyone a favour
(mainly yourself), and don't use BGT. It's like
deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, using a
plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and
dorb for lining, and stiff prayer for water
purification.

HTH,

Take care,

Chris Norman

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via
groups.io <http://groups.io>
mailto:verizon@groups.io>> wrote:

Hello, everyone I have just joined the group,
and I hope the distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community
understand that I am very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of
simple dice or card games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script
doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window
stays open only for a couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the
program's keystrokes can be

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

io in the right speaker, and when the
>>> object is at a 45 degree offset, one side is at half volume. Most games
>>> I've played seem to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to
>>> have to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic of
>>> game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.
>>>
>>> Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real handling
>>> of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that case I can pretty
>>> easily make up the difference in an audio editor if needed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>>> I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try it,
>>> I'd love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues, so I can fix
>>> 'em! :)
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Chris Norman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>>>>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
>>>> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
>>>> Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
>>>> <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be more
>>>> familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
>>>>  (for
>>>> want of a better name), and pyAGE
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
>>>>  (which
>>>> is still very much in its early stages).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
>>>> work, there's Godot Accessibility
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on
>>>> the audiogames.net forum.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and
>>>> probably some other stuff in C# too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself),
>>>> and don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool,
>>>> using a plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining,
>>>> and stiff prayer for water purification.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris Norman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io >>> verizon@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I hope the
>>>> distinguished
>>>> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very
>>>> much a
>>>> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card
>>>> games. I
>>>> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
>>>> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a
>>>> couple of
>>>> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
>>>> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work
>>>> under
>>>> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
>>>> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for
>>>> a
>>>> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be
>>>> programmed in
>>>> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses
>>>> keystroke-driven
>>>> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I
>>>> have
>>>> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently
>>>> trying to
>>>> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
>>>> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or
>>>> parts
>>>> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just
>>>> abstract
>>>> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up,
>>>> discarded,
>>>> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate
>>>> the
>>>> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus?
>>>> How
>>>> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I
>>>> clearly
>>>> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
>>>> clarifications.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>
>


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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

 so I've been figuring I'm going to
>>> have to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic of
>>> game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.
>>>
>>> Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real handling
>>> of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that case I can pretty
>>> easily make up the difference in an audio editor if needed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>>> I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try it,
>>> I'd love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues, so I can fix
>>> 'em! :)
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Chris Norman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>>>>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
>>>> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
>>>> Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
>>>> <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be more
>>>> familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
>>>>  (for
>>>> want of a better name), and pyAGE
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
>>>>  (which
>>>> is still very much in its early stages).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
>>>> work, there's Godot Accessibility
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
>>>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on
>>>> the audiogames.net forum.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and
>>>> probably some other stuff in C# too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself),
>>>> and don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool,
>>>> using a plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining,
>>>> and stiff prayer for water purification.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris Norman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io >>> verizon@groups.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I hope the
>>>> distinguished
>>>> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very
>>>> much a
>>>> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card
>>>> games. I
>>>> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
>>>> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a
>>>> couple of
>>>> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
>>>> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work
>>>> under
>>>> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
>>>> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for
>>>> a
>>>> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be
>>>> programmed in
>>>> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses
>>>> keystroke-driven
>>>> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I
>>>> have
>>>> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently
>>>> trying to
>>>> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
>>>> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or
>>>> parts
>>>> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just
>>>> abstract
>>>> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up,
>>>> discarded,
>>>> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate
>>>> the
>>>> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus?
>>>> How
>>>> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I
>>>> clearly
>>>> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
>>>> clarifications.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>
>


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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Jacob Kruger]

 please submit
issues, so I can fix 'em! :)

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss
mailto:sm.ever...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.



On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io
<http://groups.io> wrote:


Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any
documentation for it.

*From:* blind-gamers@groups.io
<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io> 
<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Chris
Norman via groups.io <http://groups.io>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
*To:* blind-gamers@groups.io <mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and
programming questions

Hi,

There are a few different audio game engines for Python,
these include Earwax
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
<https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is
supposed to be more familiar to those coming from BGT,
Framework

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
 (for
want of a better name), and pyAGE

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
 (which
is still very much in its early stages).

If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind
a little more work, there's Godot Accessibility

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>.

Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this
thread
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on
the audiogames.net <http://audiogames.net> forum.

There are others, namely MonoGame
<https://www.monogame.net/>, and probably some other
stuff in C# too.

Other than that, please just do everyone a favour
(mainly yourself), and don't use BGT. It's like deciding
to dig yourself a swimming pool, using a plastic bucket
and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining, and
stiff prayer for water purification.

HTH,

Take care,

Chris Norman

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io
<http://groups.io> mailto:verizon@groups.io>> wrote:

Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I
hope the distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community
understand that I am very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple
dice or card games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script
doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window stays
open only for a couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the
program's keystrokes can be
executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported,
but it does work under
Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know
how to implement
keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked
basic tutorials for a
few programming languages, and realized that game
logic can be programmed in
any of the languages but none of these tutorials
addresses keystroke-driven
implementation, or addition of sound. And even in
the BGT tutorial, I have
not found answers to some of my questions. The game
I am currently trying to
write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create,
for example, a card
game, how do you make a card playable? If cards
exist as strings, or parts
of an array, or even instances of their own class,
they are just abstract
logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated
- picked up, discarded,
etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program
a way to navigate the
list of cards and then perform an action on a card
currently in focus? How
to make it an element of interface so it can be
selected? I hope I clearly
expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance
for any clar

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

OK,
I'm not going to try and answer all of your questions here, partly because
I already feel this topic is getting quite off topic, and secondly because
some of it is frankly far outside my experience, and I('d hate to speak out
of turn and give out incorrect information.

If this is something people are genuinely interested in, I'm more than
happy to speak to them either personally (via email), or do some kind of
Google Meet thing where I can try and explain some Python basics.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 16:42, Damien Garwood  wrote:

> Hi Chris,
> If I implied that Python was evil based on irrefutable evidence, then
> that was definitely not my intention. Indeed, it is apparently the third
> most popular programming language behind C and Java (according to
> Wikipedia), and most of its output is perfectly usable.
> I myself use NVDA as my primary screen reader, which is 85% Python
> driven (according to GitHub). I use two Python-powered apps for my
> virtual change ringing practice sessions. And I play a few small
> Python-powered games. So I couldn't agree more that Python does, indeed,
> have its place.
> What I'm saying though, is that I don't think the place for it is for
> writing big blockbuster audio games. If we want more games like BK, A
> Hero's Call, or Manamon, I just don't think Python could cope. Of course
> I have no evidence to support that apart from my past experiences with
> three relatively small games, two of which were purely online-based and
> one which has since been optimised.
> I merely intended to provide my own opinions and experiences as a
> beginner myself so that any other learners could take those into account
> in their decision making processes. If this has already been explored
> elsewhere then I am unaware of it.
> If a new learner turns out to be one of the many who can overcome the
> barriers that have stopped me in my tracks and proved me to be some kind
> of ice-age wild monkey with a straw-filled head, then that's great. But
> I Also feel it's important that learners who are struggling with it are
> aware that there are alternatives, and ones which could prove easier and
> better for them, especially if they want to do the seemingly impossible
> and make a purely audio-driven equivalent of GTA.
> Finally, I'm genuinely curious as to what Python offers that is worth
> sacrificing speed and simplicity for. Whatever it is must be absolutely
> amazing, and once I find that spot then chances are I'll likely get the
> bug as well (no pun intended there).
>
> Anyway, to challenge your answers (constructively, I hope):
>
> 1. Speed
> That depends. If you're measuring a single operation, chances are you're
> probably right, the improvement may well be less than a millisecond. Try
> traversing data over a million or even billion cycle loop though, and
> that extra time adds up. Try doing intensive activities over a network,
> it could be even worse.
> A test that took 30 seconds in BGT and just under a minute in Python
> took less than 100 milliseconds in C. Granted, maybe I don't know the
> Python language well enough to know how to optimise my code, but bear in
> mind I'm speaking from a beginner's point of view - I was doing a test
> based on code from a tutorial.
>
> 2. Readability
> That's more a case of personal preference. I find some areas of Python
> easier to read than others, but that would be the same for any language.
> I love Python's import/autonamespacing system, and given that a lot of
> build scripts seem to be written in Python, that would be a lot better
> to me than the cavernous leap between C/C++ code and makefiles or CMake.
> But I do prefer the way C/C++ does variable and function definitions
> (unless of course you count explicit casting). On the other hand, I much
> prefer BASIC's logic in calling its custom datatypes "types" compared to
> what C calls "structs". Programming in any language is all about
> compromise and it's all down to personal judgment as to what compromises
> you believe are worth your time and energy.
>
> Take the following Python definition:
>
> def get_media_info(entry, media)
>
> What on earth does def mean? Oh, it means function. Right. Does this
> function return a string? Or is there a media_info object somewhere?
> What are entry and media? Are they strings, or integers corresponding to
> list indexes, or separate entry/media objects...Is media perhaps the raw
> data of an audio file? We have no way of knowing without trawling the
> function to try and gain some context.
>
> string get_media_info(int entry, int media)
>
> To me, that's much clearer what things are. It returns a string, and
> requires two int parameters (probably indexes that allow access to a
> vector or array). Can't get much simpler or more specific than that.
> Of course, there are ways around it like anything - comments being one
> of them. But a "programming best practices" style tutorial told me that
> you should never 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Damien Garwood]

Hi Chris,
If I implied that Python was evil based on irrefutable evidence, then 
that was definitely not my intention. Indeed, it is apparently the third 
most popular programming language behind C and Java (according to 
Wikipedia), and most of its output is perfectly usable.
I myself use NVDA as my primary screen reader, which is 85% Python 
driven (according to GitHub). I use two Python-powered apps for my 
virtual change ringing practice sessions. And I play a few small 
Python-powered games. So I couldn't agree more that Python does, indeed, 
have its place.
What I'm saying though, is that I don't think the place for it is for 
writing big blockbuster audio games. If we want more games like BK, A 
Hero's Call, or Manamon, I just don't think Python could cope. Of course 
I have no evidence to support that apart from my past experiences with 
three relatively small games, two of which were purely online-based and 
one which has since been optimised.
I merely intended to provide my own opinions and experiences as a 
beginner myself so that any other learners could take those into account 
in their decision making processes. If this has already been explored 
elsewhere then I am unaware of it.
If a new learner turns out to be one of the many who can overcome the 
barriers that have stopped me in my tracks and proved me to be some kind 
of ice-age wild monkey with a straw-filled head, then that's great. But 
I Also feel it's important that learners who are struggling with it are 
aware that there are alternatives, and ones which could prove easier and 
better for them, especially if they want to do the seemingly impossible 
and make a purely audio-driven equivalent of GTA.
Finally, I'm genuinely curious as to what Python offers that is worth 
sacrificing speed and simplicity for. Whatever it is must be absolutely 
amazing, and once I find that spot then chances are I'll likely get the 
bug as well (no pun intended there).


Anyway, to challenge your answers (constructively, I hope):

1. Speed
That depends. If you're measuring a single operation, chances are you're 
probably right, the improvement may well be less than a millisecond. Try 
traversing data over a million or even billion cycle loop though, and 
that extra time adds up. Try doing intensive activities over a network, 
it could be even worse.
A test that took 30 seconds in BGT and just under a minute in Python 
took less than 100 milliseconds in C. Granted, maybe I don't know the 
Python language well enough to know how to optimise my code, but bear in 
mind I'm speaking from a beginner's point of view - I was doing a test 
based on code from a tutorial.


2. Readability
That's more a case of personal preference. I find some areas of Python 
easier to read than others, but that would be the same for any language. 
I love Python's import/autonamespacing system, and given that a lot of 
build scripts seem to be written in Python, that would be a lot better 
to me than the cavernous leap between C/C++ code and makefiles or CMake. 
But I do prefer the way C/C++ does variable and function definitions 
(unless of course you count explicit casting). On the other hand, I much 
prefer BASIC's logic in calling its custom datatypes "types" compared to 
what C calls "structs". Programming in any language is all about 
compromise and it's all down to personal judgment as to what compromises 
you believe are worth your time and energy.


Take the following Python definition:

def get_media_info(entry, media)

What on earth does def mean? Oh, it means function. Right. Does this 
function return a string? Or is there a media_info object somewhere? 
What are entry and media? Are they strings, or integers corresponding to 
list indexes, or separate entry/media objects...Is media perhaps the raw 
data of an audio file? We have no way of knowing without trawling the 
function to try and gain some context.


string get_media_info(int entry, int media)

To me, that's much clearer what things are. It returns a string, and 
requires two int parameters (probably indexes that allow access to a 
vector or array). Can't get much simpler or more specific than that.
Of course, there are ways around it like anything - comments being one 
of them. But a "programming best practices" style tutorial told me that 
you should never have to comment what something is, you should only ever 
need to comment why you are using a certain method to achieve a goal. I 
could be either misinterpreting or being literalist about it, but bear 
in mind, 80 to 85% of my programming knowledge is self-taught based on 
personal blogs and the odd tutorial on the internet and so I've had no 
exposure to external or practical context or even discussions about this 
sort of thing.


3. Maintainability
Define "maintainable".
If we're talking about compilers, C and C++ compilers are constantly 
being maintained, as is Python. You might even argue that C/C++ 
compilers are even more maintained - Python is 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

OK,
Version 2026.2.6 hopefully fixes that, although I'm using Python 3.9.1, so
other things might rely on newer language features.

To ensure the best compatibility with Earwax, use the latest version of
Python you can lay your hands on.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 12:24, Jacob Kruger  wrote:

> Chris, if I install it via pip, then, the moment I try to import it, I get
> the following error:
>
>   File
> "C:\Users\bandi\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python37-32\lib\site-packages\earwax\mixins.py",
> line 7, in 
> from typing import (TYPE_CHECKING, Any, Dict, List, Optional, TextIO,
> Type,
> ImportError: cannot import name 'get_args' from 'typing'
> (C:\Users\bandi\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python37-32\lib\typing.py)
>
>
> That's under python 3.7.8 32-bit, if relevant.
>
> Jacob Kruger
> Blind Biker
> Skype: BlindZA
> "...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
> On 2021-02-15 02:12 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>
> OK, so this is actually an area where Earwax's documentation is sadly
> lacking.
>
> Behind the scenes, Earwax uses Synthizer <https://synthizer.github.io/> for
> its sound needs.
>
> When creating a sound, you can use three types of positions: You can set
> the position to ``None``, which is Python's answer to ``null``, or ``nil``.
> This unpans the sound, so it's completely unaffected by anything spacial.
>
> You can slo set the sound to a float value between -1.0, and 1.0. This
> pans the sound left and right (with 0 being centre), as you'd expect.
>
> Finally, you can set it to an earwax Point
> <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.point.html> instance,
> which gives you full 3d capabilities.
>
> Also, the earwax ``BufferCache`` class is a LRU cache (least recently
> used), so you can get buffers from it, and it'll remove the buffers which
> were used longest ago.
>
> For more information on sounds, check the earwax.sound
> <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.sound.html> module
> documentation.
>
> As for behind the player processing, it would depend what you mean.
> There's a whole raft load of scheduling features, from the earwax.Task
> <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.task.html> class, to
> two different promise
> <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.promises.html> types,
> to the scheduling features provided by pyglet.clock
> <https://pyglet.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/clock.html>.
>
> What there *isn't* yet, is filters. This is because they're not yet in
> Synthizer.
>
> There is reverb and delay though, so you've got your two main fx covered.
>
> Take care,
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 11:29, john  wrote:
>
>> I've also recently been looking into various game engines myself (mostly
>> rust-based), but this sounds pretty interesting as well. My current
>> conundrum is around getting something that has actual genuinely accurate
>> sound panning; how is Earwax for that? Ideally I'd like to be able to pass
>> it either a degree value (from centered) or use a linear scale that
>> actually maps itself directly to degrees, so that when an object is
>> directly left, there's *zero*! audio in the right speaker, and when the
>> object is at a 45 degree offset, one side is at half volume. Most games
>> I've played seem to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to
>> have to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic of
>> game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.
>>
>> Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real handling
>> of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that case I can pretty
>> easily make up the difference in an audio editor if needed.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>> I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try it, I'd
>> love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues, so I can fix 'em!
>> :)
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Chris Norman
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss  wrote:
>>
>>> I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>>>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, Feb

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Jacob Kruger]

Chris, if I install it via pip, then, the moment I try to import it, I 
get the following error:


  File 
"C:\Users\bandi\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python37-32\lib\site-packages\earwax\mixins.py", 
line 7, in 
    from typing import (TYPE_CHECKING, Any, Dict, List, Optional, 
TextIO, Type,
ImportError: cannot import name 'get_args' from 'typing' 
(C:\Users\bandi\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python37-32\lib\typing.py)



That's under python 3.7.8 32-bit, if relevant.


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2021-02-15 02:12 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
OK, so this is actually an area where Earwax's documentation is sadly 
lacking.


Behind the scenes, Earwax uses Synthizer 
<https://synthizer.github.io/> for its sound needs.


When creating a sound, you can use three types of positions: You can 
set the position to ``None``, which is Python's answer to ``null``, or 
``nil``. This unpans the sound, so it's completely unaffected by 
anything spacial.


You can slo set the sound to a float value between -1.0, and 1.0. This 
pans the sound left and right (with 0 being centre), as you'd expect.


Finally, you can set it to an earwax Point 
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.point.html> instance, 
which gives you full 3d capabilities.


Also, the earwax ``BufferCache`` class is a LRU cache (least recently 
used), so you can get buffers from it, and it'll remove the buffers 
which were used longest ago.


For more information on sounds, check the earwax.sound 
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.sound.html> module 
documentation.


As for behind the player processing, it would depend what you mean. 
There's a whole raft load of scheduling features, from the earwax.Task 
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.task.html> class, 
to two different promise 
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.promises.html> types, 
to the scheduling features provided by pyglet.clock 
<https://pyglet.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/clock.html>.


What there *isn't* yet, is filters. This is because they're not yet in 
Synthizer.


There is reverb and delay though, so you've got your two main fx covered.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 11:29, john <mailto:jpcarnemo...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I've also recently been looking into various game engines myself
(mostly rust-based), but this sounds pretty interesting as well.
My current conundrum is around getting something that has actual
genuinely accurate sound panning; how is Earwax for that? Ideally
I'd like to be able to pass it either a degree value (from
centered) or use a linear scale that actually maps itself directly
to degrees, so that when an object is directly left, there's
*zero*! audio in the right speaker, and when the object is at a 45
degree offset, one side is at half volume. Most games I've played
seem to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to have
to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic
of game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.

Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real
handling of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that
case I can pretty easily make up the difference in an audio editor
if needed.


Best,

John


On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io <http://groups.io>
wrote:
I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try
it, I'd love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues,
so I can fix 'em! :)

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss mailto:sm.ever...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.



On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io
<http://groups.io> wrote:


Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any
documentation for it.

*From:* blind-gamers@groups.io
<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io> 
<mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman
via groups.io <http://groups.io>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
    *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io <mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming
questions

Hi,

There are a few different audio game engines for Python,
these include Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta),
Lucia <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is
supposed to be more familiar to those coming from BGT,
Framework

<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
 (for
want of a better name), and p

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

OK, so this is actually an area where Earwax's documentation is sadly
lacking.

Behind the scenes, Earwax uses Synthizer <https://synthizer.github.io/> for
its sound needs.

When creating a sound, you can use three types of positions: You can set
the position to ``None``, which is Python's answer to ``null``, or ``nil``.
This unpans the sound, so it's completely unaffected by anything spacial.

You can slo set the sound to a float value between -1.0, and 1.0. This pans
the sound left and right (with 0 being centre), as you'd expect.

Finally, you can set it to an earwax Point
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.point.html> instance,
which gives you full 3d capabilities.

Also, the earwax ``BufferCache`` class is a LRU cache (least recently
used), so you can get buffers from it, and it'll remove the buffers which
were used longest ago.

For more information on sounds, check the earwax.sound
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.sound.html> module
documentation.

As for behind the player processing, it would depend what you mean. There's
a whole raft load of scheduling features, from the earwax.Task
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.task.html> class, to
two different promise
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/earwax.promises.html> types,
to the scheduling features provided by pyglet.clock
<https://pyglet.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/clock.html>.

What there *isn't* yet, is filters. This is because they're not yet in
Synthizer.

There is reverb and delay though, so you've got your two main fx covered.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 11:29, john  wrote:

> I've also recently been looking into various game engines myself (mostly
> rust-based), but this sounds pretty interesting as well. My current
> conundrum is around getting something that has actual genuinely accurate
> sound panning; how is Earwax for that? Ideally I'd like to be able to pass
> it either a degree value (from centered) or use a linear scale that
> actually maps itself directly to degrees, so that when an object is
> directly left, there's *zero*! audio in the right speaker, and when the
> object is at a 45 degree offset, one side is at half volume. Most games
> I've played seem to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to
> have to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic of
> game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.
>
> Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real handling
> of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that case I can pretty
> easily make up the difference in an audio editor if needed.
>
>
> Best,
>
> John
>
>
> On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
> I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try it, I'd
> love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues, so I can fix 'em!
> :)
>
> Take care,
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss  wrote:
>
>> I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:
>>
>> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
>> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
>> Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
>> <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be more
>> familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework
>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
>>  (for
>> want of a better name), and pyAGE
>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
>>  (which
>> is still very much in its early stages).
>>
>>
>>
>> If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
>> work, there's Godot Accessibility
>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
>> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on the
>> audiogames.net forum.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and
>> probably some other stuff in C# too.
>>
>>
&g

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[john]

  
  
I've also recently been looking into various game engines myself
  (mostly rust-based), but this sounds pretty interesting as well.
  My current conundrum is around getting something that has actual
  genuinely accurate sound panning; how is Earwax for that? Ideally
  I'd like to be able to pass it either a degree value (from
  centered) or use a linear scale that actually maps itself directly
  to degrees, so that when an object is directly left, there's
  *zero*! audio in the right speaker, and when the object is at a 45
  degree offset, one side is at half volume. Most games I've played
  seem to struggle with this so I've been figuring I'm going to have
  to get into decibels and logarithms, but since we're on the topic
  of game engines here, it can't hurt to ask.
Additionally, significant bonus points will be awarded for real
  handling of behind-the-player processing, but at least in that
  case I can pretty easily make up the difference in an audio editor
  if needed.



Best,
John



On 2/15/2021 5:42, Chris Norman via
  groups.io wrote:


  I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so
if you do try it, I'd love to know how you get on. Also, please
submit issues, so I can fix 'em! :)

  

  
Take care,


Chris Norman


  

  
  

  
  
  
On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47,
  Shaun Everiss <sm.ever...@gmail.com> wrote:


  
I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.




On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:


  
Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and
could not find any documentation for it.
 

  From: blind-gamers@groups.io

On Behalf Of Chris Norman via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021
6:20 AM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers]
    Introduction, and programming questions

 

  Hi,
  
There are a few different
audio game engines for Python, these include Earwax (beta), Lucia (which
is supposed to be more familiar to those coming
from BGT, Framework (for
want of a better name), and pyAGE (which
is still very much in its early stages).
  
  
 
  
  
If you'd rather go the
mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
work, there's Godot
  Accessibility.
  
  
 
  
  
Finally, for some
subjective comparisons, see this
  thread on the audiogames.net
forum.
  
  
 
  
  
There are others, namely MonoGame,
and probably some other stuff in C# too.
  
  
 
  
  
Other than that, please
just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), and
don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig
yourself a swimming pool, using a plastic bucket
and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for
lining, and stiff prayer for water purification.
  
  
 
  
  
HTH,
  
  

  

   
  
Take care,
  
  
 
  
  
Chris 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

I'm it's primary (and currently soul) developer, so if you do try it, I'd
love to know how you get on. Also, please submit issues, so I can fix 'em!
:)

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 22:47, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

> I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.
>
>
>
> On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:
>
> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>
>
>
> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
> Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
> <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be more
> familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
>  (for
> want of a better name), and pyAGE
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
>  (which
> is still very much in its early stages).
>
>
>
> If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
> work, there's Godot Accessibility
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
> .
>
>
>
> Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on the
> audiogames.net forum.
>
>
>
> There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and
> probably some other stuff in C# too.
>
>
>
> Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), and
> don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, using a
> plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining, and stiff
> prayer for water purification.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io  verizon@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much
> a
> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple
> of
> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed
> in
> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying
> to
> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up,
> discarded,
> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
> clarifications.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>


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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

It's currently undergoing a major overhaul, so the documentation is
currently a bit patchy.

Keep an eye on this thread
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/31079/lucia-opensource-audiogame-engine-written-in-python/>,
as I'm sure 2.0 will be announced there.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 19:55, Immigrant via groups.io  wrote:

> Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.
>
>
>
> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io  *On Behalf Of *Chris
> Norman via groups.io
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
> Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia
> <https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be more
> familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
>  (for
> want of a better name), and pyAGE
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
>  (which
> is still very much in its early stages).
>
>
>
> If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more
> work, there's Godot Accessibility
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
> .
>
>
>
> Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
> <https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on the
> audiogames.net forum.
>
>
>
> There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and
> probably some other stuff in C# too.
>
>
>
> Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), and
> don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, using a
> plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining, and stiff
> prayer for water purification.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io  verizon@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much
> a
> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple
> of
> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed
> in
> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying
> to
> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up,
> discarded,
> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
> clarifications.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>


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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

I would say this is massively subjective, although there are some valid
points in there I guess.

It also completely glosses over a few major facts. Namely:

1. Speed is less and less of a problem these days.

2. It's much easier to read than either C or C++.

3. It's much more maintainable than either C or C++.

4. While you lose a lot of speed, you also lose the chance that memory bugs
will creep in.

Also, if you need parts of your game sped up, you can always use external
libraries written in C, C++, or Rust.

Finally, indentation is not a problem for anyone in 2021, and it's
ridiculous how often this is presented as a reason for not using Python.
Even in languages where indentation is not mandatory, it's highly
recommended because of the increased readability, for everyone, not just
people who can see.

Anyways, I don't want to start a programmers' pissing contest, just wanted
to point out that if a new developer read your email, they would reasonably
assume that Python was pure evil, and should be avoided like a fart in a
confined space.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 13:24, Damien Garwood  wrote:

> Hi,
> Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about Python.
> For what my opinion's worth, I would suggest C or C++, all the way, 100%.
> The one advantage I can see with Python, apart from the fact that it is
> regularly maintained (always a plus), is its inherent ability to package
> scripts together and interact with them separately but cooperatively. In
> all fairness, I absolutely love that feature.
> Other than that:
> 1. Python is far slower than C and C++ (to be expected with an
> interpreted language using so many higher-level wrapper layers). You
> might not think that's a problem for games, but it depends on how big
> your games are, and how much you care about speed. As a developer, I'd
> much rather plan for the worst case, that is to say a massive open-world
> game which might have thousands of objects, and try and optimise it in a
> way that allows it to take three seconds to open in a solid language
> than having to stick with the limitations of it taking over 30 seconds
> in an interpreted environment, simply because you have no control over
> how memory is allocated or accessed.
> 2. Python is far too bloated. Again, so many moving parts, having to
> ship the interpreter with the code, any DLLs (or indeed PYDs) that might
> be being wrapped etc. None of this can be linked statically. There are
> complicated workarounds that would trigger the alarm of certain virus
> scanners, but they're not ideal by any means. With C or C++, as long as
> you have the source code to what you're linking, you could link
> everything statically and safely into one executable. As an example, if
> SoundRTS was rewritten in C++, chances are the distribution directory
> could easily contain 600 files less than the Python distribution does.
> We already saw an example on list the other day of what can happen if
> you just happen to be missing one DLL!
> 3. Python is far too vulnerable to reverse engineering, only making it
> viable for open-source products. Experienced closed-source Python users
> know how to get around that, either by using obfuscation, or even by
> modifying the interpreter. But again, that's using complicated methods
> that Python wasn't technically designed for, possibly making it even
> slower at runtime, and definitely making Python more complicated for the
> learner. On the other hand, try to decompile a release binary in C and
> C++, and you get nothing but hex and assembly.
> 4. In some cases, Python seems a lot more complicated. I'm not sure
> whether that's because of the tutorials or the philosophy behind it, but
> start talking to me about virtual environments, pip, the processes for
> building executables, or the process for trapping exceptions in pyw,
> it's enough to send my head in a spin. In C++, you don't need packages
> and environments, and its ways of exceptions and executables are a lot
> more elegant.
> 5. On a more personal pet hate of mine, Python is far too visual with
> its indentation requirements. I guess that's OK for people using braille
> or partials that can see a screen, but mere mortals using speech don't
> need it, and for my part I could spend the rest of my life without it. I
> find it much easier to read code with deliberate boundary symbols. Of
> course that is simply a matter of preference and setup.
> The way I see it, Python wasn't designed for programming at all. In
> fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Python is slightly like AutoIt. That is
> to say, it started out as an automated or possibly shell scripting
> environment, and has since evolved to try to be like any other
> programming language, and for that reason, it suffers from many defects
> and deficiencies. I believe even the Python documentation refers to a
> few situations that arise as a result of previous bugs or design
> oversights.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Shaun Everiss]

I have heard of earwax but I haven't really looked at it.



On 15/02/2021 4:41 am, Immigrant via groups.io wrote:


Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.

*From:* blind-gamers@groups.io  *On Behalf Of 
*Chris Norman via groups.io

*Sent:* Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
*To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

Hi,

There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include 
Earwax <https://earwax.readthedocs.io/> (beta), Lucia 
<https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia> (which is supposed to be more 
familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/> (for 
want of a better name), and pyAGE 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/> (which 
is still very much in its early stages).


If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more 
work, there's Godot Accessibility 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>.


Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/> on 
the audiogames.net <http://audiogames.net> forum.


There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/>, and 
probably some other stuff in C# too.


Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), 
and don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, 
using a plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for 
lining, and stiff prayer for water purification.


HTH,

Take care,

Chris Norman

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io 
<http://groups.io> <mailto:verizon@groups.io>> wrote:


Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I hope the
distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am
very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card
games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a
couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes
can be
executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does
work under
Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic
tutorials for a
few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be
programmed in
any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses
keystroke-driven
implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT
tutorial, I have
not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently
trying to
write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a
card
game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings,
or parts
of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just
abstract
logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up,
discarded,
etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to
navigate the
list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in
focus? How
to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I
clearly
expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
clarifications.









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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Immigrant via groups.io]

Thanks. I heard of Lucia, and could not find any documentation for it.

 

From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of Chris Norman 
via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:20 AM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

 

Hi,

There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include Earwax 
<https://earwax.readthedocs.io/>  (beta), Lucia 
<https://github.com/luciasoftware/lucia>  (which is supposed to be more 
familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38239/framework-my-new-set-of-tools-for-audiogame-creation-in-python3/>
  (for want of a better name), and pyAGE 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38941/pyage-yet-another-python-audio-game-engine/>
  (which is still very much in its early stages).

 

If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more work, 
there's Godot Accessibility 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/33909/migrated-godot-accessibility-to-github/>
 .

 

Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread 
<https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/38995/python-and-audiogame/>  on the 
audiogames.net <http://audiogames.net>  forum.

 

There are others, namely MonoGame <https://www.monogame.net/> , and probably 
some other stuff in C# too.

 

Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), and don't 
use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, using a plastic 
bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining, and stiff prayer for 
water purification.

 

HTH,

 

Take care,

 

Chris Norman

 

 

 

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io <http://groups.io>  
mailto:verizon@groups.io> > wrote:

Hello, everyone I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in
any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying to
write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded,
etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.











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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Damien Garwood]

Hi,
Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about Python.
For what my opinion's worth, I would suggest C or C++, all the way, 100%.
The one advantage I can see with Python, apart from the fact that it is 
regularly maintained (always a plus), is its inherent ability to package 
scripts together and interact with them separately but cooperatively. In 
all fairness, I absolutely love that feature.

Other than that:
1. Python is far slower than C and C++ (to be expected with an 
interpreted language using so many higher-level wrapper layers). You 
might not think that's a problem for games, but it depends on how big 
your games are, and how much you care about speed. As a developer, I'd 
much rather plan for the worst case, that is to say a massive open-world 
game which might have thousands of objects, and try and optimise it in a 
way that allows it to take three seconds to open in a solid language 
than having to stick with the limitations of it taking over 30 seconds 
in an interpreted environment, simply because you have no control over 
how memory is allocated or accessed.
2. Python is far too bloated. Again, so many moving parts, having to 
ship the interpreter with the code, any DLLs (or indeed PYDs) that might 
be being wrapped etc. None of this can be linked statically. There are 
complicated workarounds that would trigger the alarm of certain virus 
scanners, but they're not ideal by any means. With C or C++, as long as 
you have the source code to what you're linking, you could link 
everything statically and safely into one executable. As an example, if 
SoundRTS was rewritten in C++, chances are the distribution directory 
could easily contain 600 files less than the Python distribution does. 
We already saw an example on list the other day of what can happen if 
you just happen to be missing one DLL!
3. Python is far too vulnerable to reverse engineering, only making it 
viable for open-source products. Experienced closed-source Python users 
know how to get around that, either by using obfuscation, or even by 
modifying the interpreter. But again, that's using complicated methods 
that Python wasn't technically designed for, possibly making it even 
slower at runtime, and definitely making Python more complicated for the 
learner. On the other hand, try to decompile a release binary in C and 
C++, and you get nothing but hex and assembly.
4. In some cases, Python seems a lot more complicated. I'm not sure 
whether that's because of the tutorials or the philosophy behind it, but 
start talking to me about virtual environments, pip, the processes for 
building executables, or the process for trapping exceptions in pyw, 
it's enough to send my head in a spin. In C++, you don't need packages 
and environments, and its ways of exceptions and executables are a lot 
more elegant.
5. On a more personal pet hate of mine, Python is far too visual with 
its indentation requirements. I guess that's OK for people using braille 
or partials that can see a screen, but mere mortals using speech don't 
need it, and for my part I could spend the rest of my life without it. I 
find it much easier to read code with deliberate boundary symbols. Of 
course that is simply a matter of preference and setup.
The way I see it, Python wasn't designed for programming at all. In 
fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Python is slightly like AutoIt. That is 
to say, it started out as an automated or possibly shell scripting 
environment, and has since evolved to try to be like any other 
programming language, and for that reason, it suffers from many defects 
and deficiencies. I believe even the Python documentation refers to a 
few situations that arise as a result of previous bugs or design oversights.

Cheers,
Damien.

On 14/02/2021 11:20 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

Hi,
There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include 
Earwax  (beta), Lucia 
 (which is supposed to be more 
familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework 
 (for 
want of a better name), and pyAGE 
 (which 
is still very much in its early stages).


If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more 
work, there's Godot Accessibility 
.


Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread 
 on the 
audiogames.net  forum.


There are others, namely MonoGame , and 
probably some other stuff in C# too.


Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), and 
don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, using 
a 

Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[john]

  
  
This is a really useful set of links to keep around - much
  appreciated.




On 2/14/2021 6:20, Chris Norman via
  groups.io wrote:


  Hi,
There are a few different audio game engines for Python,
  these include Earwax (beta), Lucia (which is supposed to be
  more familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework (for want of a better
  name), and pyAGE (which is still very much
  in its early stages).


If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a
  little more work, there's Godot Accessibility.


Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread on the audiogames.net
  forum.


There are others, namely MonoGame,
  and probably some other stuff in C# too.


Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly
  yourself), and don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig
  yourself a swimming pool, using a plastic bucket and spade for
  digging, wattle and dorb for lining, and stiff prayer for
  water purification.


HTH,

  

  
Take care,


Chris Norman


  

  
  

  
  
  
On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42,
  Immigrant via groups.io verizon@groups.io>
  wrote:

Hello, everyone. I have just
  joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
  gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I
  am very much a
  beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or
  card games. I
  wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't
  generate any
  compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only
  for a couple of
  seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's
  keystrokes can be
  executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it
  does work under
  Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to
  implement
  keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic
  tutorials for a
  few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be
  programmed in
  any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses
  keystroke-driven
  implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT
  tutorial, I have
  not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am
  currently trying to
  write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for
  example, a card
  game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as
  strings, or parts
  of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are
  just abstract
  logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked
  up, discarded,
  etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to
  navigate the
  list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently
  in focus? How
  to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I
  hope I clearly
  expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
  clarifications.
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  

  



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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Hi,
There are a few different audio game engines for Python, these include
Earwax  (beta), Lucia
 (which is supposed to be more
familiar to those coming from BGT, Framework

(for
want of a better name), and pyAGE

(which
is still very much in its early stages).

If you'd rather go the mainstream route, and don't mind a little more work,
there's Godot Accessibility

.

Finally, for some subjective comparisons, see this thread
 on the
audiogames.net forum.

There are others, namely MonoGame , and probably
some other stuff in C# too.

Other than that, please just do everyone a favour (mainly yourself), and
don't use BGT. It's like deciding to dig yourself a swimming pool, using a
plastic bucket and spade for digging, wattle and dorb for lining, and stiff
prayer for water purification.

HTH,

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 02:42, Immigrant via groups.io  wrote:

> Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much
> a
> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple
> of
> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed
> in
> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying
> to
> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up,
> discarded,
> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any
> clarifications.
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>


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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Nathaniel Schmidt]

You could research audio game engines online. There would be multiple solutions 
available.


Nathaniel Schmidt
Undergraduate student
Bachelor of Computer Science (S306)
School of Information Technology
Faculty of Science, Engineering and Built Environment
Deakin University, Melbourne (Burwood) campus
https://sync.deakin.edu.au/profiles/student/njschmidt/

E:
njschm...@deakin.edu.au
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/njsch/
GitHub:
https://github.com/njsch/
Skype: nathaniel_schmidt1994
about.me/njschmidt/

> On 14 Feb 2021, at 5:03 pm, Immigrant via groups.io 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Thanks. Does C++ have a sound class?
>
> From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of Nathaniel 
> Schmidt
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2021 11:11 PM
> To: blind-gamers@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions
>
> Hi,
> If BGT arrays are the same as in C++, they won’t be very flexible if you use 
> them to store cards because you won’t be able to add or remove items very 
> easily. In C++ you can get around this by using vectors but I don’t know how 
> you would do this in BGT.
>
> If you instantiated objects, then you could create methods of classes to 
> perform on card instances which could change the values of class 
> members/object attributes.
>
> I might have mentioned this on the list before. But if you want to use code 
> similar to BGT that contains fairly easy-to-implement support for a basic 
> graphical interface and keyboard input, you could always consider the option 
> of C++ and a library called Splashkit (www.splashkit.io).
>
> Using this library, you could create a basic game window by simply calling 
> open_window ("window title", 800, 600);// you must specify screen height and 
> width in pixels
> process_events ()// do this while the game quick query is false so that the 
> program keeps on looking for key pressed events
>
> Something like that.
>
> Nathaniel
>
> 
> 
> Nathaniel Schmidt
> 
> Undergraduate student
> 
> Bachelor of Computer Science (S306)
> 
> School of Information Technology
> 
> Faculty of Science, Engineering and Built Environment
> 
> Deakin University, Melbourne (Burwood) campus
> 
> https://sync.deakin.edu.au/profiles/student/njschmidt/
> 
>
> 
> E:
> 
> njschm...@deakin.edu.au
> 
> LinkedIn:
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/njsch/
> 
> GitHub:
> 
> https://github.com/njsch/
> 
> Skype: nathaniel_schmidt1994
> 
> about.me/njschmidt/
> 
> 
> 
> On 14 Feb 2021, at 1:42 pm, Immigrant via groups.io 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much a
> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple of
> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in
> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying to
> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded,
> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Immigrant via groups.io]

I read a little about Python and Ruby, but couldn't figure out how these 
languages handle keystrokes or sound.

-Original Message-
From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of William
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 12:42 AM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

if I were you, I will do this in python and wxpython.


Immigrant via groups.io 於 14/2/2021 10:41 寫道:
> Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the 
> distinguished gamers and writers in this gaming community understand 
> that I am very much a beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of 
> simple dice or card games. I wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the 
> script doesn't generate any compilation errors. However, the game 
> window stays open only for a couple of seconds, and then disappears, 
> so none of the program's keystrokes can be executed. I realize that 
> BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under Windows 10, and it 
> is the only engine where I know how to implement keystrokes and add 
> and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a few programming 
> languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in any of 
> the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven 
> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I 
> have not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am 
> currently trying to write is a dice roller, but if one tries to 
> create, for example, a card game, how do you make a card playable? If 
> cards exist as strings, or parts of an array, or even instances of 
> their own class, they are just abstract logical structures. But cards 
> need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded, etc. If I have a hand 
> with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the list of cards and 
> then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How to make it an 
> element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly expressed my 
> questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.
>
>
>
> 
>
>







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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Immigrant via groups.io]

Thanks. Does C++ have a sound class?

 

From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of Nathaniel 
Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2021 11:11 PM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

 

Hi,

If BGT arrays are the same as in C++, they won’t be very flexible if you use 
them to store cards because you won’t be able to add or remove items very 
easily. In C++ you can get around this by using vectors but I don’t know how 
you would do this in BGT.

 

If you instantiated objects, then you could create methods of classes to 
perform on card instances which could change the values of class members/object 
attributes.

 

I might have mentioned this on the list before. But if you want to use code 
similar to BGT that contains fairly easy-to-implement support for a basic 
graphical interface and keyboard input, you could always consider the option of 
C++ and a library called Splashkit (www.splashkit.io <http://www.splashkit.io> 
).

 

Using this library, you could create a basic game window by simply calling 
open_window ("window title", 800, 600);// you must specify screen height and 
width in pixels

process_events ()// do this while the game quick query is false so that the 
program keeps on looking for key pressed events

 

Something like that.

 

Nathaniel

 



Nathaniel Schmidt

Undergraduate student

Bachelor of Computer Science (S306)

School of Information Technology

Faculty of Science, Engineering and Built Environment

Deakin University, Melbourne (Burwood) campus

https://sync.deakin.edu.au/profiles/student/njschmidt/

 

E:

njschm...@deakin.edu.au <mailto:njschm...@deakin.edu.au> 

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/njsch/

GitHub:

https://github.com/njsch/

Skype: nathaniel_schmidt1994

about.me/njschmidt/





On 14 Feb 2021, at 1:42 pm, Immigrant via groups.io 
mailto:immigrant328=verizon@groups.io> 
> wrote:

Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in
any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying to
write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded,
etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.











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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[William]

if I were you, I will do this in python and wxpython.


Immigrant via groups.io 於 14/2/2021 10:41 寫道:

Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in
any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying to
write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded,
etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.









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Re: [blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Nathaniel Schmidt]

Hi,
If BGT arrays are the same as in C++, they won’t be very flexible if you use 
them to store cards because you won’t be able to add or remove items very 
easily. In C++ you can get around this by using vectors but I don’t know how 
you would do this in BGT.

If you instantiated objects, then you could create methods of classes to 
perform on card instances which could change the values of class members/object 
attributes.

I might have mentioned this on the list before. But if you want to use code 
similar to BGT that contains fairly easy-to-implement support for a basic 
graphical interface and keyboard input, you could always consider the option of 
C++ and a library called Splashkit (www.splashkit.io).

Using this library, you could create a basic game window by simply calling 
open_window ("window title", 800, 600);// you must specify screen height and 
width in pixels
process_events ()// do this while the game quick query is false so that the 
program keeps on looking for key pressed events

Something like that.

Nathaniel


Nathaniel Schmidt
Undergraduate student
Bachelor of Computer Science (S306)
School of Information Technology
Faculty of Science, Engineering and Built Environment
Deakin University, Melbourne (Burwood) campus
https://sync.deakin.edu.au/profiles/student/njschmidt/

E:
njschm...@deakin.edu.au
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/njsch/
GitHub:
https://github.com/njsch/
Skype: nathaniel_schmidt1994
about.me/njschmidt/

> On 14 Feb 2021, at 1:42 pm, Immigrant via groups.io 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
> gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much a
> beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
> wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
> compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple of
> seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
> executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
> Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
> keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
> few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in
> any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
> implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
> not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying to
> write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
> game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
> of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
> logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded,
> etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
> list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
> to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
> expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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[blind-gamers] Introduction, and programming questions

[Immigrant via groups.io]

Hello, everyone. I have just joined the group, and I hope the distinguished
gamers and writers in this gaming community understand that I am very much a
beginner, trying to write perhaps a couple of simple dice or card games. I
wrote a dice game script in BGT, and the script doesn't generate any
compilation errors. However, the game window stays open only for a couple of
seconds, and then disappears, so none of the program's keystrokes can be
executed. I realize that BGT is no longer supported, but it does work under
Windows 10, and it is the only engine where I know how to implement
keystrokes and add and manipulate sounds. I checked basic tutorials for a
few programming languages, and realized that game logic can be programmed in
any of the languages but none of these tutorials addresses keystroke-driven
implementation, or addition of sound. And even in the BGT tutorial, I have
not found answers to some of my questions. The game I am currently trying to
write is a dice roller, but if one tries to create, for example, a card
game, how do you make a card playable? If cards exist as strings, or parts
of an array, or even instances of their own class, they are just abstract
logical structures. But cards need to be manipulated - picked up, discarded,
etc. If I have a hand with 5 cards, how do I program a way to navigate the
list of cards and then perform an action on a card currently in focus? How
to make it an element of interface so it can be selected? I hope I clearly
expressed my questions, and I am grateful in advance for any clarifications.



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