- Original Message -
From: John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If I moved to the US
(which I wouldn't) part of the deal I would strike with the government
would
be to accept say bans on short selling of stick if the government decided
that was a good idea,
What if the government
Sorry if the analogy is confusing or faulty, my main point is that
governments are consenting partners too.
That just ain't so. As has been observed Government is force. and
there's sweet F.A negotiation between it, its agents and the citizens it
bends to its will.
Force generally is not
On 23/09/2008, at 10:26 AM, Dan M wrote:
Other posters have pointed out the fact that best suited is
dependant on
the particulars of the environment, the history of environments, etc.
Charlie may correct me, but I think I recall him stating that there
is no
teleology in evolution.
If
On 23/09/2008, at 1:27 PM, Julia Thompson wrote:
The general SEC requirement had been to limit it to 12X. An
exception was
made in 2004 for 5 companies - Goldman, Merrill, Lehman, Bear
Stearns, and
Morgan Stanley.
None of which exist today in the form they did five years ago. D'oh.
On 23/09/2008, at 10:26 AM, Dan M wrote:
Other posters have pointed out the fact that best suited is
dependant on
the particulars of the environment, the history of environments, etc.
Charlie may correct me, but I think I recall him stating that there
is no
teleology in evolution.
If
Maybe I am in the minority, but I have never felt the government is
opressing me, or forcing me to do things I don't want to do, and I reckon I
get fair recompence for paying my taxes obeying the law.
It is not required for a government to be oppresive for it to be true
that you do not
From: Euan Ritchie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry if the analogy is confusing or faulty, my main point is that
governments are consenting partners too.
That just ain't so. As has been observed Government is force. and
there's sweet F.A negotiation between it, its agents and the citizens it
bends
Wayne Eddy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Another part of the deal (there would of course be thousands of parts)
would be assurances that I would not become a slave after I emigrated (I
believe the American constitution would spell that out).
Since the American constitution can be amended, that would
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 7:06 AM, John Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
You seem to be talking about an odd sort of consent. You will consent
to do any new thing that the government decides to tell you to do, as
long as it is not too many things. In case it is not clear, the examples
I listed
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I see some confusion here about consent versus consensus.
I said nothing about consensus. Now that you've mentioned that you
post nonsense if you don't have enough caffeine, I don't know when
to take your posts seriously.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:14 AM, John Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I see some confusion here about consent versus consensus.
I said nothing about consensus. Now that you've mentioned that you
post nonsense if you don't have enough caffeine, I don't know
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes, you said nothing about consensus. That is exactly why I brought it up.
You seem to have confused me with someone else. You get confused a lot,
don't you?
___
I give my consent to be governed by people with whom I disagree, so long as
they are elected by legal democratic means.
Nick
Don't forget, Hitler was elected by Democratic means.
Olin
- Original Message -
From: Nick Arnettmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et
Olin Elliott wrote
I give my consent to be governed by people with whom I disagree,
so long as they are elected by legal democratic means.
Don't forget, Hitler was elected by Democratic means.
This is a myth. He was elected by the parliament, which is not
democratic. It's like Bush II in
Olin Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Don't forget, Hitler was elected by Democratic means.
Let me guess Nick's response:
I see some confusion about elected versus selected by a
vote. Let's debate which is better. Or perhaps we could
all vote on a rule about which language we may use.
Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is a myth. He was elected by the parliament, which is not
democratic. It's like Bush II in 2000, who was elected by the
electoral college, and not by the people.
Ah, so you are saying it was only about 49.9% of the popular
preference, instead of
John Williams wrote:
This is a myth. He (Hitler) was elected by the parliament, which
is not democratic. It's like Bush II in 2000, who was elected
by the electoral college, and not by the people.
Ah, so you are saying it was only about 49.9% of the popular
preference, instead of 50.1%?
Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have no fsking idea what you are trolling about.
That makes two of us! I'm having a good day if I understand
more that 50% of what I am trolling about.
OTOH, Bush II was _accepted_ by 75% of the USA voters - only
25% voted against him.
26%, you didn't
This is a myth. He was elected by the parliament, which is not
democratic. It's like Bush II in 2000, who was elected by the
electoral college, and not by the people.
Alberto Monteiro
Hmmm ... I'm no expert on German History, so I'll take your word for it.
Still, being elected by Parliament
I have no fsking idea what you are trolling about.
That makes two of us! I'm having a good day if I
understand more that 50% of what I am trolling about.
Trolling is Internet slang is someone who posts controversial, irrelevant or
off-topic messages in online community discussion forums, or
OTOH, Bush II was _accepted_ by 75% of the USA voters
- only 25% voted against him.
are you saying that 75% of those eligible to vote, including those who
boycotted or were apathetic?
jon
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
UNCOUNTED: The New Math of American Elections
A Film by David Earnhardt
Exposes how American voters were cheated during the 2004 and 2006 elections and
why it will likely happen again in 2008.
Trailer:
http://www.uncountedthemovie.com/trailer.html
Powerful and persuasive...
- Howard
Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Trolling is Internet slang is someone who posts controversial, irrelevant or
off-topic messages in online community discussion forums, or chat rooms, with
the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response, or to
deliberately disrupt normal
Charlie may correct me, but I think I recall him
stating that there
is no teleology in evolution.
which is why I am an atheist...
If I did, I was paraphrasing much greater thinkers than I.
But yes.
Evolution is a drunken walk. Or a moth in a disco.
Charlie.
Teleology:
1. The study
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Olin Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My point was simply that being chosen by Democratic means does not mean
that a leader is fit to rule, or that he has any respect for Democratic
process.
If there isn't a reasonable correlation there, then democracy is
Trolling is Internet slang is someone who posts
controversial, irrelevant or
off-topic messages in on line community discussion
forums, or chat rooms, with
the intention of provoking other users into an
emotional response, or to
deliberately disrupt normal on-topic discussion. It is
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If there isn't a reasonable correlation there, then democracy is in trouble.
Perhaps so.
Or perhaps people place too much faith in politicians and government, and
would be better off reducing their power and scope.
If I read
correctly, and I multi-sourced this, there was a short period that
companies
couldn't sell short term paper; in other words companies with big assets
couldn't get loans for a day or two that were a fraction of their
assets.
Not all companies...mainly the companies that
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Now, you can argue that Sears and Ford are questionable, but GE? The point
is that the liquidity of the market was drying up. And, at
No, the liquidity of the market was not drying up. Interest rates went up. As
they should. As they should have long ago if there
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Williams
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:58 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Meltdown
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The natural tendency of business (which we
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The problem was that no-one (including the board of directors of AIG knew
that AIG was insolvent until the day the government intervened.
LOL! Do you believe in the tooth fairy, too?
At that point, _everything_ becomes questionable. GE having to pay nearly
double
On 24/09/2008, at 3:11 AM, Olin Elliott wrote:
I give my consent to be governed by people with whom I disagree, so
long as
they are elected by legal democratic means.
Nick
Don't forget, Hitler was elected by Democratic means.
Olin
Kind of. Was horse-trading in the parliament that got
On 24/09/2008, at 4:27 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
Charlie may correct me, but I think I recall him
stating that there
is no teleology in evolution.
which is why I am an atheist...
If I did, I was paraphrasing much greater thinkers than I.
But yes.
Evolution is a drunken walk. Or a moth
On 24/09/2008, at 6:40 AM, John Williams wrote:
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The problem was that no-one (including the board of directors of
AIG knew
that AIG was insolvent until the day the government intervened.
LOL! Do you believe in the tooth fairy, too?
Instead of mocking, why don't
On 24/09/2008, at 6:21 AM, Dan M wrote:
The problem was that no-one (including the board of directors of AIG
knew
that AIG was insolvent until the day the government intervened.
That sounds implausible. Someone knew. It's what level they were at
and what they choose to do with the
I give my consent to be governed by people with whom I disagree, so long as
they are elected by legal democratic means.
I doubt very much anyone ever asked you (who had the will and power to
change it) if it was okay that you were governed by the system in place.
And absent that you haven't
Charlie Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Instead of mocking, why don't you try EXPLAINING.
Instead of telling other people what you think they should do,
why don't YOU explain whatever you believe needs explaining?
___
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Williams
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:40 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Meltdown
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The problem was that no-one (including the
Don't forget, Hitler was elected by Democratic means.
While initially true it is inaccurate to claim he took power
democratically. His party was elected to a significant proportion of
government but the position of authority he abused was bestowed by
presidential executive fiat.
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That's
what the interest rate measures...the willingness of folks to buy GE notes.
Gee, really? It couldn't possibly be just a little more complicated than that?
A rational
market wouldn't change GE's interest rate that quickly
Again, really? Either you are
This is a myth. He was elected by the parliament, which is not
democratic. It's like Bush II in 2000, who was elected by the
electoral college, and not by the people.
Ah, so you are saying it was only about 49.9% of the popular
preference, instead of 50.1%? Sounds like a robust system.
The problem was that no-one (including the board of directors of AIG knew
that AIG was insolvent until the day the government intervened. Bubbles and
panics are part of the nature of the market. You can repeat your mantra of
free markets are perfect until you are blue in the face, but AIG
Euan Ritchie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That combination of economic depression and exploitable militarism is
something to worry about, really quite topical.
I agree. I think it is scary.
Although a problematic example it does give on pause to wonder about the
situation where a democratic election
On 23 Sep 2008, at 23:13, Charlie Bell wrote:
Yes, most of us know what teleology is. Why did you post a
definitition of teleology in response to my descriptions of evolution
as non-teleological?
He was repulsing a windmill full of strawmen?
Mixed metaphor Maru
--
William T Goodall
Euan Ritchie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It amazes me (was this AIG or Fanny and Freddie, I forget) that they
went to ask for some 30 Billion but on a couple of days investigation it
turned out to be more like 70 Billion was needed to meet their obligations.
The management of the relevant company
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charlie Bell
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 5:28 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Meltdown
On 24/09/2008, at 6:21 AM, Dan M wrote:
The problem was that no-one
it does give on pause to wonder about the
situation where a democratic election may place people to whom democracy
is disposable in power. I guess it's a string argument for rigid
Constitutional rule.
I'm not sure how rigid constitutional rule would be able to stop a determined
leader with
Dan M [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But, my understanding is that the bundling has become so
layered and convoluted that folks really didn't understand what was
happening in real time. With the amount of leverage that exists, a
perfectly reasonable looking position can fall apart quickly.
Yes, and if
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com
- Original Message
From: John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 6:52:33 PM
Subject: Re: Meltdown
Dan M
At 03:40 PM Tuesday 9/23/2008, John Williams wrote:
Just a thought, but you might inspire a bit more confidence in your marks
if you spent a little time learning about how markets and regulation actually
work and a little less repeating cliched-jokes that were corny when my
grandfather was young.
At 05:35 PM Tuesday 9/23/2008, Euan Ritchie wrote:
I give my consent to be governed by people with whom I disagree, so long as
they are elected by legal democratic means.
I doubt very much anyone ever asked you (who had the will and power to
change it) if it was okay that you were governed
At 03:36 AM Tuesday 9/23/2008, Wayne Eddy wrote:
You can't trade away your right to trade something (slaves say) in exchange
for Citizenship, and then expect to be able to sell slaves anyway anymore
than you can trade your cow to one person for a horse and the same cow to a
second person for a
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: John Williams
Gee, really? It couldn't possibly be just a little more complicated than that?
Me:
There are more factors,
Yes, that is what I was referring to.
but in the short-term money market, not that many, really.
Surely the laws of supply
Dan M wrote:
The problem was that no-one (including the board of directors of AIG knew
that AIG was insolvent until the day the government intervened. Bubbles and
panics are part of the nature of the market. You can repeat your mantra of
free markets are perfect until you are blue in the
On Sep 23, 2008, at 8:00 PM, Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
Dan M wrote:
The problem was that no-one (including the board of directors of
AIG knew
that AIG was insolvent until the day the government intervened.
Bubbles and
panics are part of the nature of the market. You can repeat your
Dan M wrote:
Oh, the irrationality. Why would people be reluctant to by one day notes
from GE. Does any sane person think GE will go belly up _tomorrow?_ That's
what the interest rate measures...the willingness of folks to buy GE notes.
All of a sudden, buyers dried up. That's a measure of
On Sep 23, 2008, at 8:00 PM, Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
Now, most decent spreadsheet programs will not let you get away with
this circular reference, but an unregulated market can. Essentially,
it
all came down to a shell game where everyone was insuring each others
risks, and then convincing
Kevin B. O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Now, most decent spreadsheet programs will not let you get away with
this circular reference, but an unregulated market can. Essentially, it
all came down to a shell game where everyone was insuring each others
risks, and then convincing themselves that
- Original Message
From: John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:48:12 PM
Subject: Re: Meltdown
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: John Williams
Gee, really? It couldn't possibly be
1. Something definitely happened, but I doubt anyone knows exactly what,
as yet.
2. It is almost certainly not as dire as Paulson and Bernanke are trying
to make it sound. The world won't come to an end if we take the time to
think things through.
3. Anyone who trusts what this administration
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But
such a stampede could cause lots of otherwise fine companies to go under,
which
would cause still more companies to go under, and so on,
It's hard to imagine _anything_ worth the risk of going
through that when interventions can prevent it.
So,
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:52 PM, John Williams
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Sure, the government was largely responsible for creating a huge home price
bubble and encouraging a bunch of bad loans to con-artists and people who
had no business getting the loans, but that is not the problem. The
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Now, you have these fund managers. All of them are worried. They've just
seen several things happen that they've never seen before. They know that
there are still securities on a lot of balance sheets that have
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm all for reducing the size and market interference... of
greed. I'm not sure how to do that other than via some sort of political
process.
You want to impose your ideals on the rest of us and destroy one of
the main drivers of innovation and growth? You've
- Original Message
From: John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:16:58 PM
Subject: Re: Meltdown
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But
such a stampede could cause lots of otherwise fine
So I have two simple questions for you. What do you think the odds of such a
collapse occurring are? 1% 5%? Whatever number you pick - what do you think
should be done to lessen that risk? Nothing? If so, do you not buy health
insurance?
Best,
Gautam
I hate replying to m own post, but
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, I say I'd go to astronomers, and astrophysicists, and aerospace
engineers. And I'd find the best ones in the world.
Why haven't you?
OK, your argument, just to be clear, is that you don't know anything about
finance.
It is?
You have no
- Original Message
From: John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 12:15:33 AM
Subject: Re: Meltdown
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, I say I'd go to astronomers, and astrophysicists, and
Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Again, you know nothing about me,
Ah, so you are saying everything you have written today is nonsense. Not
much point in me replying to your nonsense anymore. This will be the last
email, then.
It's not my job to educate you.
Heh, good one. I have data,
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