Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 1:31 AM, Dave Land wrote: One view -- a minority view in Christianity -- is that the Bible is a human product, not a divine one. Or that it is a divine one but with the errors inherent in human transcription, which is a similar but distinct position to the one that you mention. Another is that the OT is there for the history, but as Jesus represents a new covenant, only the gospels represent the part of the bible of direct relevance to Christians. The Bible records certain people's wrestling with who God might be and how they might relate to God. The value in such a book (which is definitely NOT to be worshiped, but can still be taken very seriously) is that it lets us know what our spiritual forbears thought and believed, which might inform our understanding of God and our relationship to God. It also contains some historically- factual events. It has been said The Bible is true, and some of it actually happened. Problems arise when our (modern, Western) ideas of the equality of truth and factuality are layered on top of writings that didn't originate in the same understanding of truth and factuality. Indeed. Unfortunately, that's all I have time for right now, but I do hold that there is value in the book, and it is not that it was handed down from deity. This I understand, and it is the moderate Christianity that I grew up with. But the same questions apply - how do you pick and choose? Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 1:57 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: I have discussed religion with a number of Lutherans other than Nick (mainly Germanic Europeans, either in Cyprus or in Australia), and all bar one of those still practicing that I have met in the flesh (so 6 or 7) are biblical literalists. Are you sure? That's not a typical Lutheran belief, not at all. At the core of Lutheranism are scripture, faith and grace... the inclusion of faith and grace means that scripture does not stand alone, leaving no room for literalism. It may be that creationism has taken hold in the churches of those with whom I have spoken - I was really quite surprised. But I had an otherwise very nice Austrian immigrant in Australia telling me that there was no way the earth was created in more than 6 days and couldn't be more than 6000 years old. Her husband was a little embarrassed. It may also be that American Lutheranism is more moderate than its European branch. Or that I'm just unlucky (not unlikely). They'd regard themselves as Good Christians. I don't know whether anyone still active on this list is a literalist, but if one isn't a literalist, then that's a different measure for what Christianity is or what a good follower means than for those that are. How do we decide what is right? Perhaps that the wrong question. Perhaps the challenge is how to live with uncertainty, as Harris challenges us. To that question I think a quote of Feynman's is appropriate: I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. To me, this is why the traditional teaching of the major religions fails, because frankly if one can just make it up as one goes along, But that's not it at all. Then what is it? Many Christians or theists have this idea of the Bible's teachings as a moral guide, but much of the moral precept they take from it (or imagine that's in there) is simply what they want to take from it. There are good people who are living good Christian Lives, but they're behaving differently to the code as laid out in the NT. Again, how does one decide? Faith in a deity/deities/force/whatever is one thing. It's highly personal. But faith in a book is something else, and that's where the argument starts - if the book says one thing, but a follower disagrees and does something else, where's the value in the book? Plenty of Christians go astray by worshiping the Bible. Right. So the Bible is not to be worshipped. It is a guide. But again, which bits are relevant today, without massive editorial? Which gospel do we take as, er, gospel? The 4 plus Acts? Any of the others that have been rediscovered, like the recent Gospels of Judas, or Thomas, or the other Apocrypha? Do we trust that the motives of the NT editors were pure in selecting which Gospels and Epistles to include, and which not? Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 4:18 AM, Dan Minette wrote: If one is Christian, then the Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) has the greatest authority. Precisely what I was taught. I never met someone who was really a literalist concerning the whole of scriptures.they just don't count their non-literal reading as non-literal. Precisely why I abhor literalists. The implication that fundamentalism is the only complete form of a religion is a perfectly reasonable assertion But, with Christianity, then one would have to argue that it was incomplete for most of its existence. Fundamentalism is really rather new. Really? What was the Inquistion all about then? Enforcing the Doctrine of the Faith, and burning heretics to the faith. Or the Mohammedan jihads? Fundamentalism is a new name for something that has been inherent in religion (and politics and tribalism) for as long as there have been people - inflexible adherence to whatever standard has been chosen, and beating up those that disagree... Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 7:45 AM, Dan Minette wrote: I was saying that social, political and economic conditions in the Middle East have created an environment favorable to recruiting terrorists by demagogues. My point was to argue against focusing on religion as the reason there are terrorists arising in Islamic countries, as Harris chooses to do. I certainly agree with that basic point, and differ with the Fool. Socioeconomics or straight politics create the conditions in which extremism can flourish, but the tools of that extremism, the suicide bombers themselves, *are* religiously motivated. They are convinced that they are doing god's work, and they are told by those who have another agenda that killing Israelis or Americans or Brits or Sunnis or each other is doing god's work. I think the unique mix of a region that both brings cash in hand over fist and is ruled by a small group of people who control that cash fosters a lot of the danger of terrorism in the Middle East. The leader of Zimbabwe does not have the resources to build atomic weapons that can set of a massive nuclear war. The leader of Iran does...and the West is sending him $50 billion/year to spend as he sees fit. Bin Laden came from a multi-billionaire family, and had access to millions. That helped fund their operations. There is plenty of terrorism in Zimbabwe, and for much the same reasons. It's just that it's all internal (as it mostly is in the Basque region or was in Britain and Ireland). Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
Dan Minette wrote: One thing that struck methe fundamental reason for the last big European war was simply elbow room. Generally the term used is lebensraum, or living room, which is a German word. It was not the reason for the war, but it was a large part of Germany's policy toward/with several nations, in particular Russia/Soviet Union. -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ I'm gonna win, trust in me / I have come to save this world / and in the end I'll get the grrrl! --Machinae Supremacy, Hero (Promo Track) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Linux suckz
After a FR [long story...], I am trying to install Fedora Core 4 in my home computer. So far, no problem that I could not solve or see a chance to solve, except this: mkswap file1 returns error file1: Permission denied Does anyone know what the hell is going on? mkswap worked with every other distro I tried. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 4/11/06, Charlie Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then what is it? Many Christians or theists have this idea of the Bible's teachings as a moral guide, but much of the moral precept they take from it (or imagine that's in there) is simply what they want to take from it. There are good people who are living good Christian Lives, but they're behaving differently to the code as laid out in the NT. Again, how does one decide? In Lutheranism and most of Protestantism, Christianity isn't about doing good in order to get into heaven, even though that's often how it comes across. Christ's message of forgiveness frees us from the vicious cycle of guilt and error, frees us to do good, to follow the very rules that free us. This is where cause and effect are often confused. Am I a follower of Christ because I'm good? Yes, but not through my own doing. In other words, I would not be free to follow were it not for the freedom from guilt that I enjoy, a freedom that is entirely unearned -- grace (we're big on grace in Lutheranism). Lest this all sound theological, intellectual and distant, let me make it clear that in my life, I certainly have seen that I become a kinder, more loving person when I start by accepting that I am accepted, rather than the false, but often followed, idea that first I have to be good. My favorite parable about this is the woman caught in adultery. The *first* thing Jesus does is send away her accusers and says that neither does he does condemn her, vividly demonstrating that he accepts her as she is. Only then does he say those words that are so often taken out of this context -- Go and sin no more. Acceptance and forgiveness precede be good. Critics of Christianity talk about aspects that are hard to believe, but they rarely point to this wild notion that God loves us in our sin, not despite it. I certainly find it hard to give up the idea that I have to be good before you'll accept me... but when I do believe that, it is powerful stuff. Right. So the Bible is not to be worshipped. It is a guide. But again, which bits are relevant today, without massive editorial? Which gospel do we take as, er, gospel? The 4 plus Acts? Any of the others that have been rediscovered, like the recent Gospels of Judas, or Thomas, or the other Apocrypha? Do we trust that the motives of the NT editors were pure in selecting which Gospels and Epistles to include, and which not? There are various ways that churches answer that question, but if there is one that says, However you'd like to, it is most certainly on the fringe. I suppose that Unitarians fit that description. John Wesley's great contribution was to offer a method (or a Method) to go about this, his quadilateral of reason, tradition, experience and Scripture. Reason can be quite liberal, tradition tends to be conservative, experience can probably go either way (e.g., a conservative is a Christian who has been mugged, a liberal is somebody who has lived among the poor), Scripture can be used and abused... but it seems to me that respecting each is as good as any way to choose one's path. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
On this day in . . .
* 1961, Soviet cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin became the first man to fly in space, orbiting the earth once before making a safe landing * 1981, the space shuttle Columbia blasted off from Cape Canaveral on its first test flight * 1985, Sen. Jake Garn of Utah became the first senator to fly in space as the shuttle Discovery lifted off -- Ronn! :) Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one cannot remain in the cradle forever. -- Konstantin E. Tsiolkovskiy ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ This message was sent automatically using cron. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 11 Apr 2006 at 15:31, Dave Land wrote: On Apr 11, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Charlie Bell wrote: On 11/04/2006, at 6:33 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: He also seems to fail to recognize the difference between irrational and non-rational beliefs. And this statement, Religious moderation is just a cherry-picking of scripture, ultimately, is ridiculous. It implies that fundamentalism is the only *complete* form of Christianity. Nonsense, really. So how do you decide which parts of scripture to follow and which not? The whole bible? Just the NT? Just Jesus' teachings, and ignore Paul's commentary? ... Faith in a deity/deities/force/whatever is one thing. It's highly personal. But faith in a book is something else, and that's where the argument starts - if the book says one thing, but a follower disagrees and does something else, where's the value in the book? One view -- a minority view in Christianity -- is that the Bible is a human product, not a divine one. The Bible records certain people's wrestling with who God might be and how they might relate to God. The This is, incidentally, also the view of Reform Judaism. AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
At 04:35 PM Tuesday 4/11/2006, Charlie Bell wrote: On 12/04/2006, at 12:33 AM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Faith in a deity/deities/force/whatever is one thing. It's highly personal. But faith in a book is something else, and that's where the argument starts - if the book says one thing, but a follower disagrees and does something else, where's the value in the book? Charlie One answer is that if there really is a God, you could try asking Him what He wants you to do . . . Sure. Like I say, it's highly personal. Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . _ ¹Read The Father's Manual --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 11 Apr 2006 at 7:22, The Fool wrote: If you ingore some minor gibberish about buddism: www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060403_sam_harris_interview I find your faith in atheism is touching. I wonder why you need so strongly not to believe. As I said to a communist friend of mine the other day, he takes his Marx a lot more seriously than I take my Bible. AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 8:59 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: One answer is that if there really is a God, you could try asking Him what He wants you to do . . . Sure. Like I say, it's highly personal. Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . Now there's a good shortcut to atheism. :-) Charlie___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
At 01:49 PM Wednesday 4/12/2006, Charlie Bell wrote: On 12/04/2006, at 8:59 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: One answer is that if there really is a God, you could try asking Him what He wants you to do . . . Sure. Like I say, it's highly personal. Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . Now there's a good shortcut to atheism. :-) Not necessarily, if as some have suggested the Bible is a record of God's dealings with other humans. Then it might give you some useful guidelines which you could employ in your life. FWIW, my experience is that God, like a good professor, gives you the smallest possible hint to get you on the right track. In some cases that hint may well be found in the Scriptures . . . --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 7:09 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: In Lutheranism and most of Protestantism, Christianity isn't about doing good in order to get into heaven, even though that's often how it comes across. That I know - I was raised C of E, and was heavily involved in Christian fellowship through my teens. It's not what I was talking about. The Christian precept of redemption through acceptance of God's grace in the sacrifice of Jesus is one thing. That is the correct definition of a Christian, and is where so many (including many Sunday Christians like my mother) get it wrong. Christ's message of forgiveness frees us from the vicious cycle of guilt and error, frees us to do good, to follow the very rules that free us. This is where cause and effect are often confused. Sure. *snip for brevity* Lest this all sound theological, intellectual and distant, let me make it clear that in my life, I certainly have seen that I become a kinder, more loving person when I start by accepting that I am accepted, rather than the false, but often followed, idea that first I have to be good. Also fine, and well understood by me. My favorite parable about this is the woman caught in adultery. The *first* thing Jesus does is send away her accusers and says that neither does he does condemn her, vividly demonstrating that he accepts her as she is. Only then does he say those words that are so often taken out of this context -- Go and sin no more. Acceptance and forgiveness precede be good. Critics of Christianity talk about aspects that are hard to believe, but they rarely point to this wild notion that God loves us in our sin, not despite it. I certainly find it hard to give up the idea that I have to be good before you'll accept me... but when I do believe that, it is powerful stuff. Sure is. There are various ways that churches answer that question, but if there is one that says, However you'd like to, it is most certainly on the fringe. I suppose that Unitarians fit that description. John Wesley's great contribution was to offer a method (or a Method) to go about this, his quadilateral of reason, tradition, experience and Scripture. Reason can be quite liberal, tradition tends to be conservative, experience can probably go either way (e.g., a conservative is a Christian who has been mugged, a liberal is somebody who has lived among the poor), Scripture can be used and abused... but it seems to me that respecting each is as good as any way to choose one's path. Interesting how hard it is to get a straight answer, isn't it? So what you're saying is that there is no right answer, and we take out of it what we can? It still seems that the only major difference between you and I in terms of understanding our place in this world is that while we both imagine how a moral person would be and try to live that way, while we both try to be both accepting of our own shortcomings and of others', you have a belief in something I no longer have. A large part of my journey away from religious or supernatural belief was my personal and growing understanding that the ethical and moral codes I chose to follow worked just as well whether God existed or not... ...and eventually, for me, he didn't. I'm still interested in hearing the religious experience of intelligent and thoughtful scientific believers, and chewing the fat on these subjects. I may disagree (and often do, sometimes a bit strongly) but I'm always interested. Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
The Fool wrote: I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Humans are fundamentelly evil creatures who deserve to die. You must be great fun at parties. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 10:17 PM, Jim Sharkey wrote: The Fool wrote: I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Humans are fundamentelly evil creatures who deserve to die. You must be great fun at parties. *snort* Lucky I wasn't drinking just then. :D Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 12/04/2006, at 10:01 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . Now there's a good shortcut to atheism. :-) Not necessarily, if as some have suggested the Bible is a record of God's dealings with other humans. Then it might give you some useful guidelines which you could employ in your life. FWIW, my experience is that God, like a good professor, gives you the smallest possible hint to get you on the right track. In some cases that hint may well be found in the Scriptures Sure. But, I guess you're just as likely to find that smiting and stoning is recommended as a solution as kiss-and-make-up is... Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
From: Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11 Apr 2006 at 7:22, The Fool wrote: If you ingore some minor gibberish about buddism: www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060403_sam_harris_interview I find your faith in atheism is touching. I wonder why you need so strongly not to believe. As I said to a communist friend of mine the other day, he takes his Marx a lot more seriously than I take my Bible. I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Humans are fundamentelly evil creatures who deserve to die. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
At 02:20 PM Wednesday 4/12/2006, Charlie Bell wrote: On 12/04/2006, at 10:01 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . Now there's a good shortcut to atheism. :-) Not necessarily, if as some have suggested the Bible is a record of God's dealings with other humans. Then it might give you some useful guidelines which you could employ in your life. FWIW, my experience is that God, like a good professor, gives you the smallest possible hint to get you on the right track. In some cases that hint may well be found in the Scriptures Sure. But, I guess you're just as likely to find that smiting and stoning is recommended as a solution as kiss-and-make-up is... That's when it is advisable to request further light and knowledge in the form of another hint . . . --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
Sure. But, I guess you're just as likely to find that smiting and stoning is recommended as a solution as kiss-and-make-up is... That's when it is advisable to request further light and knowledge in the form of another hint . . . Lord, what sort of rock should I lob at his head? ;) Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
From: Charlie Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 12/04/2006, at 10:01 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . Now there's a good shortcut to atheism. :-) Not necessarily, if as some have suggested the Bible is a record of God's dealings with other humans. Then it might give you some useful guidelines which you could employ in your life. FWIW, my experience is that God, like a good professor, gives you the smallest possible hint to get you on the right track. In some cases that hint may well be found in the Scriptures Sure. But, I guess you're just as likely to find that smiting and stoning is recommended as a solution as kiss-and-make-up is... Burning virgin girls alive is great fun. So is abusing your concubine* sexually untill she dies and then chopping up her body and sending it to the national leaders. And who can forget that after you deafeat someone militarilly, you get to kill every adult woman, every male adult or child, and your army gets to rape all the female virgins as young as three, and keep them as sexual slaves. Great fun. * A concubine is female sex slave. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Weekly Chat Reminder
Is it working, or is there just no one else there? At 12:59 PM Wednesday 4/12/2006, William T Goodall wrote: As Steve said, The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ This message was sent automatically using cron. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l -- Ronn! ;) A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Great Sam Harris Interview
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:43 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Great Sam Harris Interview Really? What was the Inquistion all about then? There was a lot of payback of collaborators with the Moors, ethnic cleansing, etc. involved in the Inquisition. But, I realize your fundamental question is broader than that Enforcing the Doctrine of the Faith, and burning heretics to the faith. Or the Mohammedan jihads? Fundamentalism is a new name for something that has been inherent in religion (and politics and tribalism) for as long as there have been people - inflexible adherence to whatever standard has been chosen, and beating up those that disagree... Well, I was using the standard definition of fundamentalism in the Christian religion...which differs from what I see your use as. It is relevant, and not just an argument of semantics, because you were asking questions about the interpretation of scripture. There is no doubt that, from the start, there have been extremely strong arguments over theology. Paul references a number of them in his epistles. The early church, after Paul, had often had bitter differences. In hindsight, I think you can see how people who's family's died preventing authorities from getting copies of scripture would be very angry at those who held that it wasn't a critical part of the faith, and thus did hand over copies. But, this didn't result in many real punishments, except shunning, because there was no earthly authority to back up theological opinion. When Christianity became official, then power was available to back up authority. The first church council at Nicaea produced a creed that defined the orthodox faith. Other views were considered heretical. From here on out, the Catholic church was a power player. The bishop of Rome, pointed to the heritage of Peter, and called himself the vicar of Peter. After a while, it was changed to the vicar of Christ. The church council pronouncements were considered authoritive, and the result of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This was the foundation for a number of the problems the developed. Error had no right, and thus heretics were to be stamped out by all necessary means. This included fairly strong measures. And, of course, there was corruption in the church. Mundane power was backed up by the authority of God. The Inquisition can be seen in the light of a church that had a strong political component as well as being populated/led by rigid thinkers who felt that they had the authority of God and were expected to use their power to fight the evil of those who disagreed with them. But, they were not fundamentalists. The two great doctors of the church (Agustine and Aquinis) did not emphasize a literal interpretation of scripture. The authority of the Church was the keys of the kingdom being passed on from Peter to his successors, not a literal interpretation of scripture. Fundamentalism found it's foundation in the Reformation. Luther, Calvin, et. al. needed to find an authority apart from the Catholic church. It was scripture. Solo scriptura was the cry that undermined the authority of the keys of the kingdom. Still, I don't think that Luther was really a fundamentalist in the modern sense. Modern day fundamentalism is a reaction to the Enlightenment. The Great Revivals of the 19th century can be seen as a basis for Adventist religions, which started the focus of the theology of endtime and is the basis for the Left Behind understanding that many fundamentalists had. It was truly formed, in the US at least, in the early 20th century as a reaction against more liberal theological developments in various Protestant churches. Schisms resulted. One other thing worth noting...fundamentalists tend to be anti-hierarchical. Southern Baptists are the best known fundamentalists in the US. They have no real hierarchy. The Southern Baptist Convention does not have authority over the individual congregations. Indeed, the congregation rules itself by vote; they hire and fire ministers. Fundamentalism also tended to rise up among the poorer classes. Until fairly recently, it was more associated with tent revival meetings that big expensive churches. As the fundamentalists went up in the world, they did gain political and economic power. But, their self image of a besieged underdog is not without rootsits just out of date. So, that's why I said fundamentalism is new. What you have referenced is not new, of course. I think a very strong argument can be made that you are pointing out institutional sins within the Churchand that you are far from the first. Indeed, much of scripture wrestles with this problem. The prophets who proclaimed God's judgment of Israel were not the established priests. Instead, the pointed out the problems with the government and
Huzzah for chocolate milk
And you thought it was just for the kiddies? http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/524370?sssdmh=dm1.188252src=top10 (Abstract) Feb. 27, 2006 Chocolate milk is an effective postexercise drink that improves recovery, according to the results of a small, randomized trial reported in the February issue of the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism. Our study indicates that chocolate milk is a strong alternative to other commercial sports drinks in helping athletes recover from strenuous, energy-depleting exercise, coauthor Joel M. Stager, PhD, from Indiana University in Bloomington, said in a news release. Chocolate milk contains an optimal carbohydrate to protein ratio, which is critical for helping refuel tired muscles after strenuous exercise and can enable athletes to exercise at a high intensity during subsequent workouts. On 3 separate days, 9 male, endurance-trained cyclists performed an interval workout followed by 4 hours of recovery, and a subsequent endurance trial to exhaustion at 70% maximum oxygen consumption (VO2max). In a single-blind, randomized design, the men drank equivalent volumes of chocolate milk, fluid replacement drink (FR), or carbohydrate replacement drink (CR) immediately after the first exercise bout and 2 hours of recovery. The chocolate milk and CR had equivalent carbohydrate content. Primary endpoints were time to exhaustion, average heart rate, rating of perceived exertion, and total work for the endurance exercise. Time to exhaustion and total work were significantly greater for chocolate milk and for FR trials than for CR trials, suggesting that chocolate milk is an effective recovery aid between 2 exhausting exercise bouts. Study limitations include the possibility that the 4-hour recovery period limited the complete digestion of the complex carbohydrates contained in CR. The results of this study suggest that chocolate milk, with its high carbohydrate and protein content, may be considered an effective alternative to commercial FR and CR for recovery from exhausting, glycogen-depleting exercise, the authors write. The Dairy and Nutrition Council, Inc, supported this study in part. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006;16:78-91 ...According to the authors, the amount of stored glycogen in skeletal muscles influences exercise performance, and delaying carbohydrate ingestion for 2 hours after a workout can reduce the rate of glycogen resynthesis by half. Studies noted by the authors have suggested that 50 to 75 g of carbohydrate be ingested within 30 to 45 minutes after exercise, with ingestion of 1.2 to 1.5 g carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight per hour for the next few hours. Protein ingestion also has been shown to hasten the rate of glycogen synthesis. CR and FR, which replenish fluid and electrolytes lost during exercise but contain less carbohydrates, are 2 types of postexercise drinks that have been formulated to address glycogen synthesis and carbohydrate replacement. The current trial is a single-blind, randomized, crossover experimental study using endurance athletes as their own controls to compare the effect of 3 types of drinks: chocolate milk, FR, and CR with the equivalent carbohydrate content of chocolate milk, on performance as measured by time to exhaustion, average heart rate, rating of perceived exertion, and total work performed... I wonder if screaming at the late news and laughing at late night comedians qualify as 'strenuous bouts of excercise'? (Well, it was just a thought!) ;-) Debbi Currently Chugging Chai Maru __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] But, they were not fundamentalists. The two great doctors of the church (Agustine and Aquinis) did not emphasize a literal interpretation of scripture. The authority of the Church was the keys of the kingdom being passed on from Peter to his successors, not a literal interpretation of scripture. The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred booksIf you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true. --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 4/12/06, The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Seriously? And what do you do with Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem? Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On 4/12/06, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a lot of payback of collaborators with the Moors, No, no. It was the Moops! Fundamentalism found it's foundation in the Reformation. Luther, Calvin, et. al. needed to find an authority apart from the Catholic church. It was scripture. Solo scriptura was the cry that undermined the authority of the keys of the kingdom. Still, I don't think that Luther was really a fundamentalist in the modern sense. I don't think it's good to mention sola scriptura and leave out Luther's other two -- sola fide and sola gratia. It wasn't just scripture, but faith and grace as well. So, that's why I said fundamentalism is new. *Christian* fundamentalism of the kind we have today is fairly new. But fundamentalism of all sorts has been around for all of recorded history, I'd wager. But I'm defining fundamentalism as the idea that one understands an idea completely, that it is perfect and frozen in time, never needing to be reinterpreted in the context of the present. As I think I've said here before, I see a lot of liberal capitalist fundamentalism in the USA these days -- and it is rarely challenged. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Great Sam Harris Interview
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of The Fool Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:12 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Great Sam Harris Interview The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred booksIf you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true. --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28 (True, but not in a literal sense) != False. Just think of transubstantiation. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
-- From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 4/12/06, The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Seriously? And what do you do with Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem? - Does it effect the underlying math the all physics is based around? -- a + b = c (a + b) * (a - c) = c * (a - c) a^2 + ab - ac - cb = ca - c^2 a^2 + ab - ac = ca + cb - c^2 a * (a + b - c) = c * (a + b - c) a = c Phi the golden mean = 1.61803398875 1 / Phi = 0.61803398875 Phi^2 = 2.61803398875 phi = sqroot(1 + .25) + sqroot(.25) 1 / phi = sqroot(1 + .25) - sqroot(.25) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
On Apr 12, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Charlie Bell wrote: On 12/04/2006, at 10:01 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Of course, it's possible that the answer you get will be RTF¹M . . . Now there's a good shortcut to atheism. :-) Not necessarily, if as some have suggested the Bible is a record of God's dealings with other humans. Then it might give you some useful guidelines which you could employ in your life. FWIW, my experience is that God, like a good professor, gives you the smallest possible hint to get you on the right track. In some cases that hint may well be found in the Scriptures Sure. But, I guess you're just as likely to find that smiting and stoning is recommended as a solution as kiss-and-make-up is... In fact (and you probably know this), it is the preponderance of smiting and stoning as a means of nation-building that convinces some scholars that much of the OT is a human product. It is full of exhortations to tribal violence. Those parts it is relatively easy to disregard as having normative value for me and to interpret as a tiny, feisty nation's self-justification. Perhaps it is as Ronn! says: that Professor God's hints are extraordinarily subtle, that we might best /own/ what we learn by pursuing them. The main hint I get from reading some huge swaths of Scripture is that regardless of how much violence we do to one another, or how poorly we follow what we dimly see as God's will, God continues to love and pursue us. That, I find refreshing, remarkable and redeeming. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Great Sam Harris Interview
I don't think it's good to mention sola scriptura and leave out Luther's other two -- sola fide and sola gratia. It wasn't just scripture, but faith and grace as well. I was thinking in terms of teaching authority...Church teachings were not to be used. As an aside, would you agree with this statement, which is listed as one of the sources for JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church quote If we translate from one language to another, then Protestant talk about justification through faith corresponds to Catholic talk about justification through grace; and on the other hand, Protestant doctrine understands substantially under the one word 'faith' what Catholic doctrine (following 1 Cor. 13:13) sums up in the triad of 'faith, hope, and love' (LV:E 52). end quote Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
Jim Sharkey wrote: The Fool wrote: I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Humans are fundamentelly evil creatures who deserve to die. You must be great fun at parties. Jim That assumes he goes to parties. He might not. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Great Sam Harris Interview
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:55 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Great Sam Harris Interview That assumes he goes to parties. He might not. From what I understand, he only goes if he thinks a lot of cute little numbers would be there. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
The Fool said: Does it effect the underlying math the all physics is based around? Yes, it does. It applies to any mathematical system that includes ordinary arithmetic. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. Humans are fundamentally evil creatures who deserve to die. My cats and horses would disagree with those statements: Mice, voles, birds and deer (yes, deer!) are not nonsense. Grass and alfalfa make perfect gastronomic sense. Humans are providers of warm laps in which to sit, pleasing scratching posts such as tables and sofas, and mildly amusing puzzles like closet doors. Humans are good for scratching those impossible-to-reach places (such as the crest of the neck, or between the jawbones), and are a fairly reliable source of goodies like carrots and molasses treats; the amusement factor in overturning a freshly-loaded manure barrow is not to be discounted! With significant forbearance and perseverance, humans are trainable, although they frequently forget what they have learned. Treated cruelly, humans can turn vicious, and some, sad to say, ought to be returned to the compost heap posthaste. Firmness, patience, vigilance and kindness are the watchwords which must guide one's interactions with these challenging creatures. Debbi Channeling Various Critturs Maru;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
The Fool wrote: From: Andrew Crystall [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11 Apr 2006 at 7:22, The Fool wrote: If you ingore some minor gibberish about buddism: www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060403_sam_harris_interview I find your faith in atheism is touching. I wonder why you need so strongly not to believe. As I said to a communist friend of mine the other day, he takes his Marx a lot more seriously than I take my Bible. I believe only in the purity of math. Everything else is nonsense. I would not deny that one can find God in math. If the Universe was created by a supreme being then his fingerprints are all over it (albeit in the most subtle ways). Humans are fundamentelly evil creatures who deserve to die. You first! G xponent Gnostic Reflections Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huzzah for chocolate milk
On 4/12/06 4:04 PM, Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read about this a couple of weeks ago and started to drink more of the stuff. Like I need more excuses for chocolate consumption. Although I do add more protein powder to it for extra kick. I am training for a 25K the middle of next month. And now that I am jobless, I have more time to train! Matthew If you run 25 miles a week, you can eat what you want. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huzzah for chocolate milk
On 13/04/2006, at 1:24 AM, Matthew and Julie Bos wrote: Matthew If you run 25 miles a week, you can eat what you want. And if you cycle 60 miles a day for 6 months, you can have trouble eating enough... Charlie ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huzzah for chocolate milk
On Apr 12, 2006, at 3:27 PM, Charlie Bell wrote: On 13/04/2006, at 1:24 AM, Matthew and Julie Bos wrote: Matthew If you run 25 miles a week, you can eat what you want. And if you cycle 60 miles a day for 6 months, you can have trouble eating enough... And if you jump off a cliff, you won't have to eat anything any more. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Kevin Lenagh Uplift T-shirts
I got an email from Kevin Lenagh of _Contacting Aliens_ fame today. He's colorized a couple of his Uplift illustrations, and put them onto mugs and T-shirts using the CafePress.com service. You can find his store here: http://www.cafepress.com/laf_cafes __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Sam Harris Interview
Nick Arnett wrote: On 4/12/06, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a lot of payback of collaborators with the Moors, No, no. It was the Moops! Considering my primary meaning of MOOP, matter out of place, that's interesting. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
