Re: Brin: Urangutan granted human rights. First step to Urangutan uplift?
Very interesting, so the court decided that the non-human individuals have rights such as freedom of movement, and that the orangutan was unjustly imprisoned at a zoo (the story makes it clear that she didn't enjoy being there, and would probably not choose to remain). I wonder how much precedent this case will generate, and whether it will get applied to industrial animals as well. -- Matt From: ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO albm...@centroin.com.br To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:31 AM Subject: Brin: Urangutan granted human rights. First step to Urangutan uplift? A court in Argentina granted human rights to a captive Urangutan: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/21/us-argentina-orangutan-idUSKBN0JZ0Q620141221 http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/orangutan-granted-basic-legal-rights-in-argentina#.fimQx6Xkb http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/landmark-ruling-orangutan-granted-basic-rights-argentina/ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-30571577 (that's a great improvement from a country where, 40 years ago, humans didn't have human rights) Now, let's Uplift them!!! Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Urangutan granted human rights. First step to Urangutan uplift?
A court in Argentina granted human rights to a captive Urangutan: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/21/us-argentina-orangutan-idUSKBN0JZ0Q620141221 http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/orangutan-granted-basic-legal-rights-in-argentina#.fimQx6Xkb http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/landmark-ruling-orangutan-granted-basic-rights-argentina/ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-30571577 (that's a great improvement from a country where, 40 years ago, humans didn't have human rights) Now, let's Uplift them!!! Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin on Coast to Coast
1. Brin on Coast to Coast (Jon Louis Mann) Brin on Coast to Coast AM tonight nothing more to add here . . . (Ronn! Blankenship) ...except the number on the AM dial... KFI 640 Los Angeles and throughout California: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/stations/california It was spectacular!~) Jon the Mann ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin on Coast to Coast AM tonight (Wed. 17 Sep)
nothing more to add here . . . ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin on Coast to Coast
Brin on Coast to Coast AM tonight (Ronn! Blankenship) nothing more to add here . . . ...except the number on the AM dial... Here in California http://www.coasttocoastam.com/stations/california Los Angeles 640 KFI ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: For David Brin and the rest of you
Solar and wind energy on Earth certainly are economically viable, far more than the costs and damages we'll have to pay for massive climate change. Fossil fuels are cheap right now only because the costs (military action, increased pollution and disease and medical costs, climate change, wildfires, crop losses) are paid for through circuitous routes, or are not being paid yet (read: borrowed/stolen from future generations), or the costs and damages are forced onto disenfranchised people in poor countries who have no recourse to the people making these decisions. We literally can't afford to keep paying for that crap. Solar energy beamed down from outer space? I don't know anything about that. ~Ellen Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 17:40:15 -0300 Subject: Re: For David Brin and the rest of you Even if these things were economically viable (which they probably ain't), ambientally it would be a disaster. I can't image the Earth getting such extra amount of radiant energy and not turning it (she? Gaia?) into a hell much worse than the most pessimistic images of the most radical ecogroups. Alberto Monteiro (oil company guy) ___ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin on the radio!
FYI: Coast to Coast AM Schedule 1.10.14 - 1.16.14: Sunday, January 12, 2014: What if the 21st Century begins in 2014? The last two centuries (and possibly more) didn't start at their official point, the turning of a calendar from 00 to 01, suggests futurist and author David Brin. (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guest/brin-david/5828) He joins John B. Wells to discuss how 2014 might be the real start of the 21st Century and how this year will be pivotal for change. In the first hour, attorney and advocate for sustainability, David Robinson Simon, argues that the animal foods industry has rigged the game with artificially low prices, resulting in higher taxes and rampant obesity. Coast to Coast AM - Live Nightly 1am-5am EST / 10pm-2am PST ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: For David Brin and the rest of you
From: Dan Minette danmine...@att.net At $10/watt, this is about 4 million. How badly do you want to see this demo? I don't expect to see it, ever. But, that demo is an example of the very easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project. The fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of where the project is. Dan the idea that made the economics look good happened in _April_. Took a couple of months to work out the consequences and fit the idea into the economic model and get a reading that it cut the startup cost from $140 B to about $60 B. So the very existence of the concept as perhaps economically viable is _3_ months old. It has not been vetted, though the basic physics of the $140 B version passed peer review and should be published sometime in the next year. Nobody is going to build a 400 KW laser in three months. However, there does exist a 105 kW CW laser and for testing you could use a gyrotron mm wave generator that come up a MW or so. I can make a case that the demo was done 2000 years ago. Of course, if I had anything to do with such testing, you would not be hearing from me. The point is that it looks like there is a solution to the energy/carbon/climate that will provide really cheap energy for as long as the sun functions. Will we do anything with it? Probably not. Will any other country, perhaps. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
Dan Minette thread-killed: I don't expect to see it, ever. But, that demo is an example of the very easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project. The fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of where the project is. This is not fair-play! :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
managing the list at brin-l-ow...@mccmedia.com From: David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu On 9/5/2013 4:54 PM, Keith Henson wrote: The propulsion lasers to get the parts up to GEO at a cost where the whole thing makes economic sense, those are weapons, game changing weapons. And if I had to bet, it would be for them to be controlled by the Chinese. Keith Henson _ Now that's a problem with the plan. If the lasers could be weapons controlled by one country, I can see other countries upset enough to sabotage the whole project. There'd need to be a political solution that made it clear the lasers weren't going to be used as weapons by any group short of most of the UN Security Council. John Mankins, one of the big names in power satellite research, told me that the US would destroy a Chinese propulsion laser before it was turned on. Covertly. The head of the Chinese space agency talked to visiting Indians and proposed they jointly build power satellites. Would the US destroy an Indian/Chinese propulsion laser? From: Dan Minette danmine...@att.net Do you have any vidios of lasers holding up, say, a 10kg object, for 20 minutes 20 minutes is 1200 seconds. An object falling in a one g field would be attain a velocity of v=gt or 11760 m/s. Assuming 7.5 km/s exhaust velocity, the fuel mass to hover that long would be: 1-1/e^(11760/7500) or 79%. So you have a vehicle mass of 2.1 kg, with 7.9 kg of hydrogen The starting power for the laser would generate g x the mass of the vehicle, 98 N. Force being equal to ma where a is v/t for one second for the hydrogen. 98 N = mass per second x 7500 m/s solving for mass, about 13 gm/s Ke per second (i.e. watts) of the hydrogen is 1/2 m v^2 or 367,500 W, tapering off over the 20 minutes to 1/5th of that amount. At $10/watt, this is about 4 million. How badly do you want to see this demo? Keith and keeping it under control. This would be one of the easy feasability tests one would do at the start of any serious undertaking. That would be one of many things that would have to be sucessfully tested before the project would be deemed even possible. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: For David Brin and the rest of you
At $10/watt, this is about 4 million. How badly do you want to see this demo? I don't expect to see it, ever. But, that demo is an example of the very easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project. The fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of where the project is. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On Sep 6, 2013, at 12:37 PM, ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO chided: Dan Minette thread-killed: I don't expect to see it, ever. I can see Alberto taking issue with this statement, except that it's just Dan stating his expectation. Are we to judge what Dan expects? But, that demo is an example of the very easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project. The fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of where the project is. This is not fair-play! :-) It's totally fair play: With all due respect to Keith, his answer to Dan's question implied that if Dan wanted to see the thing demonstrated, he'd better be ready to pony up the $4M. But regardless of how completely world-changing it may be to beam energy from geosynchronous orbit some day, there will definitely need to be numerous, costly baby steps demos. Does anyone think that SpaceX and Virgin Galactic and XCOR and the like bypassed testing and just built ships and launched 'em? Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
David Hobby wrote: Or are you worried about energy being beamed down inefficiently, producing much more heat than just the amount from people using energy directly? No, even if it was possible to beam energy with 100% efficiency... it's still energy. It comes down, it must get out. If not, Earth gets cooked. Hell on Earth, the nightmare of science fiction, brought to us by those that try to save the planet. Isn't this the scenario of some cheap sci-fi, where the Mad Scientist tries to destroy the Earth by placing an enormous mirror or lens in orbit, concentrating solar energy? Just we don't need mirror or lens, place a lot of death ray satellites. Sorry, power satellites. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: For David Brin and the rest of you
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 08:24:00 -0300 Subject: Re: For David Brin and the rest of you From: albm...@centroin.com.br To: brin-l@mccmedia.com David Hobby wrote: Or are you worried about energy being beamed down inefficiently, producing much more heat than just the amount from people using energy directly? No, even if it was possible to beam energy with 100% efficiency... it's still energy. It comes down, it must get out. If not, Earth gets cooked. Hell on Earth, the nightmare of science fiction, brought to us by those that try to save the planet. Isn't this the scenario of some cheap sci-fi, where the Mad Scientist tries to destroy the Earth by placing an enormous mirror or lens in orbit, concentrating solar energy? Just we don't need mirror or lens, place a lot of death ray satellites. Sorry, power satellites. Alberto Monteiro And of course, anything that can be that easily weaponized, will be. Remember Heinlein's Loonies winning their independence by throwing rocks at the mother world? ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On 9/5/2013 7:24 AM, ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO wrote: David Hobby wrote: Or are you worried about energy being beamed down inefficiently, producing much more heat than just the amount from people using energy directly? No, even if it was possible to beam energy with 100% efficiency... it's still energy. It comes down, it must get out. If not, Earth gets cooked. Alberto-- Sorry, I don't understand how getting energy from space is inherently worse than getting energy by burning stuff that's been sitting in the ground for millions of years. Either way, it's extra energy. Plus, burning carbon compounds from the ground adds to the greenhouse effect, which just beaming power down would not. There may be good arguments for conserving more rather than having cheap clean power from space, but yours isn't one. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
In a message dated 9/5/2013 4:24:09 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, albm...@centroin.com.br writes: where the Mad Scientist tries to destroy the Earth by placing an enormous mirror or lens in orbit, concentrating solar energy? It's not in orbit; it's in London melting parked cars. Google: London building melting cars. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On 9/5/2013 4:54 PM, Keith Henson wrote: The propulsion lasers to get the parts up to GEO at a cost where the whole thing makes economic sense, those are weapons, game changing weapons. And if I had to bet, it would be for them to be controlled by the Chinese. Keith Henson _ Now that's a problem with the plan. If the lasers could be weapons controlled by one country, I can see other countries upset enough to sabotage the whole project. There'd need to be a political solution that made it clear the lasers weren't going to be used as weapons by any group short of most of the UN Security Council. ---David Zeus' lightning bolt, Maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: For David Brin and the rest of you
It looks like a combination of Skylon, a project being developed in the UK and big propulsion lasers will get the cost to under $100/kg to GEO. Do you have any vidios of lasers holding up, say, a 10kg object, for 20 minutes and keeping it under control. This would be one of the easy feasability tests one would do at the start of any serious undertaking. That would be one of many things that would have to be sucessfully tested before the project would be deemed even possible. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
From: Pat Mathews mathew...@msn.com How much does it cost in energy as well as in dollars? Substantial. I figured this for an elevator and got that the elevator had a 3 day payback for the parts and the same for lifting. The calculated energy investment for a kW of capacity was paid back in 53 days. Figured at 24 kWh/day, 1272 kWh. 94% of that is in the hydrogen used mostly for reaction mass. The startup scale project, 100 GW of new power plant per year takes a few LNG tankers a week to make the hydrogen Cradle to grave? Mass in GEO is useful, so a worn out power sat would probably be fed into making new ones. And is the initial investment within the capability of the United States right now? (I know. $60B is peanuts. Even so -) or any corporation? There are several current energy projects, most of them LNG, that are in that range. Apple has $100 billion. If Steve Jobs were alive they might use it for this project, but without him, probably not. The most likely to do it are the Chinese, who certainly need the energy and a way to quit burning coal. How seriously to take this, I don't know. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-11-02/india/34877401_1_space-solar-power-space-collaboration-v-ponraj What are the economics - in the terms mentioned above - of beaming solar power down to earth? (Those of using it space are, of course, well understood by now.) Space based solar power will under cut coal by half or it is not worth doing. Over the past 7 decades, I've come to see the wisdom of getting a good, solid cost accounting done before instituting any large scale project. If you want to go through the spreadsheet analyzing the project as a business, ask for it. Anyway, subject to that sort of analysis, it does sound good indeed. Now all it needs is people. From: ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO albm...@centroin.com.br Even if these things were economically viable (which they probably ain't), ambientally it would be a disaster. I can't image the Earth getting such extra amount of radiant energy and not turning it (she? Gaia?) into a hell much worse than the most pessimistic images of the most radical ecogroups. They were not economically viable before April. Now they might be. But let's put numbers on your concerns. G. Harry Stine put a maximum capacity for power sats in GEO at 177 TW. I don't know exactly how he did it, I get similar but smaller numbers around 120 TW. Because the energy is higher grade than heat, 12 TW would probably be enough to replace fossil fuel use.. The Earth receives 174 petawatts of incoming solar radiation of which 70% is absorbed by clouds, oceans and land masses, about 122 PW. So the amount of energy added to the earth by 12 TW of power satellites is around 1 part in ten thousand. But wait, there is more. If you have this kind of industrial base in space, sunshades in L! are fully possible. How cold do you want? Alberto Monteiro (oil company guy) As an oil company guy, you might start thinking about what can be done with oceans of cheap power. There are things that hydrocarbons can do that just can't be electrified at reasonable cost. If you go through the chemistry and energy economics, synthetic carbon neutral gasoline can be made for about a dollar a gallon if the cost of power gets down into the 1-2 cent range. I know ExxonMobile is thinking about it. From: Pat Mathews mathew...@msn.com And of course, anything that can be that easily weaponized, will be. Remember Heinlein's Loonies winning their independence by throwing rocks at the mother world? It's really hard to weaponize the microwave transmission link. Microwave optics just will not let you focus it tight enough to be particularly dangerous. The propulsion lasers to get the parts up to GEO at a cost where the whole thing makes economic sense, those are weapons, game changing weapons. And if I had to bet, it would be for them to be controlled by the Chinese. Keith Henson ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
For David Brin and the rest of you
As of last April, there seems to be a solution to the energy/carbon/climate problems, even water. Relatively cheap, less than ten dollars a person. It's long been understood that solar power from space gets around the limitations on the Earth. The problem has always been the high cost of lifting solar power satellite parts to GEO. It looks like a combination of Skylon, a project being developed in the UK and big propulsion lasers will get the cost to under $100/kg to GEO. Due to a clever idea by Steve Nixon, investment cost could be around $60 B, the break even point from selling power satellite around 8 years, and the ten year return on investment 500%. The cost of electric power from space would rapidly fall to 2 cents per kWh or less. That's cheap enough to make synthetic gasoline from CO2 out of the air for a dollar a gallon. Energy this cheap will allow sea water to be turned into fresh at low cost and permit recycling just about everything. $60 B is smaller than a number of exiting energy project, and only twice what the Chinese spent to build Three Gorges dam. Eye candy: Laser powered Skylon near the end of acceleration to LEO on hydrogen heated by 3 GW of lasers located in GEO http://www.htyp.org/File:SkylonLaser.jpg ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: For David Brin and the rest of you
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 10:10:33 -0700 Subject: For David Brin and the rest of you From: hkeithhen...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com As of last April, there seems to be a solution to the energy/carbon/climate problems, even water. Relatively cheap, less than ten dollars a person. It's long been understood that solar power from space gets around the limitations on the Earth. The problem has always been the high cost of lifting solar power satellite parts to GEO. It looks like a combination of Skylon, a project being developed in the UK and big propulsion lasers will get the cost to under $100/kg to GEO. Due to a clever idea by Steve Nixon, investment cost could be around $60 B, the break even point from selling power satellite around 8 years, and the ten year return on investment 500%. The cost of electric power from space would rapidly fall to 2 cents per kWh or less. That's cheap enough to make synthetic gasoline from CO2 out of the air for a dollar a gallon. Energy this cheap will allow sea water to be turned into fresh at low cost and permit recycling just about everything. $60 B is smaller than a number of exiting energy project, and only twice what the Chinese spent to build Three Gorges dam. Eye candy: Laser powered Skylon near the end of acceleration to LEO on hydrogen heated by 3 GW of lasers located in GEO http://www.htyp.org/File:SkylonLaser.jpg How much does it cost in energy as well as in dollars? Cradle to grave? And is the initial investment within the capability of the United States right now? (I know. $60B is peanuts. Even so -) or any corporation? What are the economics - in the terms mentioned above - of beaming solar power down to earth? (Those of using it space are, of course, well understood by now.) Over the past 7 decades, I've come to see the wisdom of getting a good, solid cost accounting done before instituting any large scale project. Anyway, subject to that sort of analysis, it does sound good indeed. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
Even if these things were economically viable (which they probably ain't), ambientally it would be a disaster. I can't image the Earth getting such extra amount of radiant energy and not turning it (she? Gaia?) into a hell much worse than the most pessimistic images of the most radical ecogroups. Alberto Monteiro (oil company guy) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On 9/4/2013 4:40 PM, ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO wrote: Even if these things were economically viable (which they probably ain't), ambientally it would be a disaster. I can't image the Earth getting such extra amount of radiant energy and not turning it (she? Gaia?) into a hell much worse than the most pessimistic images of the most radical ecogroups. Alberto Monteiro (oil company guy) Alberto-- I'd argue that if people are going to be using all the energy anyway, they might as well be doing it without adding to the greenhouse effect. Or are you worried about energy being beamed down inefficiently, producing much more heat than just the amount from people using energy directly? ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Lots of Cars and Trucks, No Traffic Signs or Lights: Chaos or Calm?
This sounds like something you were saying some time ago: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/04/lots-cars-and-trucks-no-traffic-signs-or-lights-chaos-or-calm/5152/ Except: Shared space is a term that simply describes a shift in thinking away from the regulated highway towards using the natural skills that humans are blessed with to negotiate movement and allow the normal civilities of life to continue, says road designer Hamilton-Baillie. copy-and-paster Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Calorie Restriction
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121121145404.htm The vacuole -- and its counterpart in humans and other organisms, the lysosome -- has two main jobs: degrading proteins and storing molecular building blocks for the cell. To perform those jobs, the interior of the vacuole must be highly acidic. Hughes and Gottschling found that the vacuole becomes less acidic relatively early in the yeast cell's lifespan and, critically, that the drop in acidity hinders the vacuole's ability to store certain nutrients. This, in turn, disrupts the mitochondria's energy source, causing them to break down. Conversely, when Hughes prevented the drop in vacuolar acidity, the mitochondria's function and shape were preserved and the yeast cells lived longer. Until now, the vacuole's role in breaking down proteins was thought to be of primary importance. We were surprised to learn it was the storage function, not protein degradation, that appears to cause mitochondrial dysfunction in aging yeast cells, Hughes said. The unexpected discovery prompted Hughes and Gottschling to investigate the effects of calorie restriction, which is known to extend the lifespan of yeast, worms, flies and mammals, on vacuolar acidity. They found that calorie restriction -- that is, limiting the raw material cells need -- delays aging at least in part by boosting the acidity of the vacuole. - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 42, Issue 16
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Klaus Stock k...@stock-consulting.com wrote: snip But now I wonder if we haven't already reached the goal of becoming a degenerate race. Progress mainly happens in marketing, not in research and development. And while we have a lot of hero material in our population, none of them is apparently able to make a difference. Would you be interested in being a hero? I can supply the program, but it's beyond me to lead it. To old for one thing. In short, we build one power satellite the hard way with conventional rockets or rocket planes. The first one is used for laser propulsion, and that drops the price of lifting parts to GEO so far that burning fossil fuel is more expensive than power from space. Presumable, that ends the use of fossil fuels. If your are not interested do you know anyone who is? Keith http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L5_Society ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Existence has arrived...
It's a shiny 3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. Charlie. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny 3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. I liked the book, although I do have some questions... ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny 3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. David wrote: It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. I liked the book, although I do have some questions... This seems to cry out for a comment like I think the electrons making my ebook cover *may be shiny*. Good thing I am not young enough to have accessory envy. Dee :-) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
Heh! Both covers are great though the lensatic one is so cool. I assume you've all seen the even-cooler preview trailer tinyurl.com/exist-trailer Thrive all From: kananda...@aol.com kananda...@aol.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wed, August 22, 2012 7:41:08 AM Subject: Re: Brin: Existence has arrived... On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. Davidwrote: It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. Iliked the book, although I do have some questions... This seems to cry out for a comment like I think the electrons making my ebook cover *may be shiny*. Good thing I am not young enough to have accessory envy. Dee :-) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:33:33 -0700 (PDT), David Brin db...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Heh! Both covers are great though the lensatic one is so cool. Doesn't work as well on Kindle though. -- Warren Adams-Ockrassa | nightwares.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
I made up for John by buying the hardcover and the Kobo e-book. Had pre-ordered the hardcover on Amazon, then ended up traveling without and was overcome by the desire to read on, so I bought and downloaded the latter (and finished it on my trip). Nick On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:15 PM, John Garcia john...@gmail.com wrote: i borrowed the hardcover from the NYPL (sorry Dr. B, but the budget is tight this year and i was not willing to wait for the paperback, although i will buy that when it is available) and that cover is pretty cool. the trailer was great. i will have to read it again but i have to digest it a bit. all in all, a great many ideas to ponder upon. good work! On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:33 PM, David Brin db...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Heh! Both covers are great though the lensatic one is so cool. I assume you've all seen the even-cooler preview trailer tinyurl.com/exist-trailer Thrive all -- *From:* kananda...@aol.com kananda...@aol.com *To:* brin-l@mccmedia.com *Sent:* Wed, August 22, 2012 7:41:08 AM *Subject:* Re: Brin: Existence has arrived... On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny 3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. David wrote: It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. I liked the book, although I do have some questions... This seems to cry out for a comment like I think the electrons making my ebook cover *may be shiny*. Good thing I am not young enough to have accessory envy. Dee :-) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
Thanks Nick! On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Nick Arnett nick.arn...@gmail.com wrote: I made up for John by buying the hardcover and the Kobo e-book. Had pre-ordered the hardcover on Amazon, then ended up traveling without and was overcome by the desire to read on, so I bought and downloaded the latter (and finished it on my trip). Nick On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:15 PM, John Garcia john...@gmail.com wrote: i borrowed the hardcover from the NYPL (sorry Dr. B, but the budget is tight this year and i was not willing to wait for the paperback, although i will buy that when it is available) and that cover is pretty cool. the trailer was great. i will have to read it again but i have to digest it a bit. all in all, a great many ideas to ponder upon. good work! On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:33 PM, David Brin db...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Heh! Both covers are great though the lensatic one is so cool. I assume you've all seen the even-cooler preview trailer tinyurl.com/exist-trailer Thrive all -- *From:* kananda...@aol.com kananda...@aol.com *To:* brin-l@mccmedia.com *Sent:* Wed, August 22, 2012 7:41:08 AM *Subject:* Re: Brin: Existence has arrived... On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny 3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. David wrote: It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. I liked the book, although I do have some questions... This seems to cry out for a comment like I think the electrons making my ebook cover *may be shiny*. Good thing I am not young enough to have accessory envy. Dee :-) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
I concur! Thanks Nick! On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Nick Arnett nick.arn...@gmail.com wrote: I made up for John by buying the hardcover and the Kobo e-book. Had pre-ordered the hardcover on Amazon, then ended up traveling without and was overcome by the desire to read on, so I bought and downloaded the latter (and finished it on my trip). Nick On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:15 PM, John Garcia john...@gmail.com wrote: i borrowed the hardcover from the NYPL (sorry Dr. B, but the budget is tight this year and i was not willing to wait for the paperback, although i will buy that when it is available) and that cover is pretty cool. the trailer was great. i will have to read it again but i have to digest it a bit. all in all, a great many ideas to ponder upon. good work! On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:33 PM, David Brin db...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Heh! Both covers are great though the lensatic one is so cool. I assume you've all seen the even-cooler preview trailer tinyurl.com/exist-trailer Thrive all From: kananda...@aol.com kananda...@aol.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wed, August 22, 2012 7:41:08 AM Subject: Re: Brin: Existence has arrived... On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. Davidwrote: It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. Iliked the book, although I do have some questions... This seems to cry out for a comment like I think the electrons making my ebook cover *may be shiny*. Good thing I am not young enough to have accessory envy. Dee :-) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Book / Time = Joy%
David Brin: Seriously. (May I? For just a moment?) Next time you contemplate a book’s retail price, try dividing it by the number of hours of pleasure you’ll get, reading it. Then tell me of any other pastime with a better minutes per pennies ratio of sheer joy! Video games. It's easy to see that Good Quality video games gives a much better ratio (I'm not talking about all these first person shooter games which are basically 100% interchangable and are basically Doom clones). Lets see, you probably get 3-5 times (average) from high quality games--Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, etc, You probably get 4-10 times from any given Zelda game (including handheld), 2-20 times from High quality fighter Games--Soul Caliber, Tekken, etc. Possibly 100's of times from open ended games--Tetris, Angband, Darklands, Minesweeper, etc. I know I spent more time playing Betray at Krondor than I did reading Magician (Apprentice Master). Then we get to TV shows/Movies. The average person probably rewatches their favorite TV shows Movies over and over again, so your conception is wrong. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Book / Time = Joy%
On 18/06/2012, at 7:18 PM, KZK wrote: David Brin: Seriously. (May I? For just a moment?) Next time you contemplate a book’s retail price, try dividing it by the number of hours of pleasure you’ll get, reading it. Then tell me of any other pastime with a better minutes per pennies ratio of sheer joy! Video games. It's easy to see that Good Quality video games gives a much better ratio (I'm not talking about all these first person shooter games which are basically 100% interchangable and are basically Doom clones). …apart from shooters with an online component - look at the hours (some) people spend playing CoD or Battlefield or Counterstrike. Or with a story like Deus Ex or STALKER or Fallout 3… (so your conception is wrong ;-) ). Lets see, you probably get 3-5 times (average) from high quality games--Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, etc, You probably get 4-10 times from any given Zelda game (including handheld), 2-20 times from High quality fighter Games--Soul Caliber, Tekken, etc. Possibly 100's of times from open ended games--Tetris, Angband, Darklands, Minesweeper, etc. Agree Minecraft has given me a lot of pleasure for awful small change. I know I've also spent around 270 hours in the Mass Effect universe, and probably similar in the Assassin's Creed universe. I know I spent more time playing Betray at Krondor than I did reading Magician (Apprentice Master). Then we get to TV shows/Movies. The average person probably rewatches their favorite TV shows Movies over and over again, so your conception is wrong. Plus the better one is at reading, the worse value for money it is… Reading is a very expensive habit! Glad I can afford it. Charlie. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Book / Time = Joy%
At 03:50 AM Monday 6/18/2012, Charlie Bell wrote: Reading is a very expensive habit! Glad I can afford it. I have a backpack full of books to return to the library tomorrow (or as soon after that as I can get there: only two are actually due tomorrow). Last time (a couple of weeks ago), I had to carry a full mesh shopping bag in addition because I had too many to return to fit in the backpack . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Book / Time = Joy%
Krondor eh? I (peripherally) helped to design the world that Ray Feist set his books game in. Knew him and helped/taught him when he saw that if Brin could get money for writing, why not me? Subconsciously, some of his less admirable characters were starkly clear self-portraits. From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Mon, June 18, 2012 1:19:26 AM Subject: Brin: Book / Time = Joy% David Brin: Seriously. (May I? For just a moment?) Next time you contemplate a book’s retail price, try dividing it by the number of hours of pleasure you’ll get, reading it. Then tell me of any other pastime with a better minutes per pennies ratio of sheer joy! Video games. It's easy to see that Good Quality video games gives a much better ratio (I'm not talking about all these first person shooter games which are basically 100% interchangable and are basically Doom clones). Lets see, you probably get 3-5 times (average) from high quality games--Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, etc, You probably get 4-10 times from any given Zelda game (including handheld), 2-20 times from High quality fighter Games--Soul Caliber, Tekken, etc. Possibly 100's of times from open ended games--Tetris, Angband, Darklands, Minesweeper, etc. I know I spent more time playing Betray at Krondor than I did reading Magician (Apprentice Master). Then we get to TV shows/Movies. The average person probably rewatches their favorite TV shows Movies over and over again, so your conception is wrong. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Book / Time = Joy%
I for one would LOVE to hear more about that! - jmh On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 2:47 PM, David Brin db...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Krondor eh? I (peripherally) helped to design the world that Ray Feist set his books game in. Knew him and helped/taught him when he saw that if Brin could get money for writing, why not me? Subconsciously, some of his less admirable characters were starkly clear self-portraits. From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Mon, June 18, 2012 1:19:26 AM Subject: Brin: Book / Time = Joy% David Brin: Seriously. (May I? For just a moment?) Next time you contemplate a book’s retail price, try dividing it by the number of hours of pleasure you’ll get, reading it. Then tell me of any other pastime with a better minutes per pennies ratio of sheer joy! Video games. It's easy to see that Good Quality video games gives a much better ratio (I'm not talking about all these first person shooter games which are basically 100% interchangable and are basically Doom clones). Lets see, you probably get 3-5 times (average) from high quality games--Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, etc, You probably get 4-10 times from any given Zelda game (including handheld), 2-20 times from High quality fighter Games--Soul Caliber, Tekken, etc. Possibly 100's of times from open ended games--Tetris, Angband, Darklands, Minesweeper, etc. I know I spent more time playing Betray at Krondor than I did reading Magician (Apprentice Master). Then we get to TV shows/Movies. The average person probably rewatches their favorite TV shows Movies over and over again, so your conception is wrong. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Book / Time = Joy%
Yep, Existence starts on Tuesday! Send all your friends to tinyurl.com/exist-trailer !! best to all - d___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Book / Time = Joy% (KZK)
Seriously. (May I? For just a moment?) Next time you contemplate a book?s retail price, try dividing it by the number of hours of pleasure you?ll get, reading it. Then tell me of any other pastime with a better minutes per pennies ratio of sheer joy! Video games. It's easy to see that Good Quality video games gives a much better ratio (I'm not talking about all these first person shooter games which are basically 100% interchangable and are basically Doom clones). Lets see, you probably get 3-5 times (average) from high quality games--Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, etc, You probably get 4-10 times from any given Zelda game (including handheld), 2-20 times from High quality fighter Games--Soul Caliber, Tekken, etc. Possibly 100's of times from open ended games--Tetris, Angband, Darklands, Minesweeper, etc. I know I spent more time playing Betray at Krondor than I did reading Magician (Apprentice Master). Then we get to TV shows/Movies. The average person probably rewatches their favorite TV shows Movies over and over again, so your conception is wrong. For me time is too precious to waste playing video games. I canceled my cable and minimized my time on Facebook because they were cutting into my reading time. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Book / Time = Joy% (KZK)
On Jun 18, 2012, at 2:19 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: For me time is too precious to waste playing video games. I canceled my cable and minimized my time on Facebook because they were cutting into my reading time. For me, video games — especially played with my son — are more valuable/enjoyable than most other forms of entertainment, perhaps more so because they involve thinking and engagement, rather than merely receiving them. The $60 or so that I spent on Fallout 3 bought me roughly 300 hours of entertainment, much of it with my son at my side, laughing along with me as various denizens of the post-apocalypse got the better of me. Seems like a pretty good deal. Yes, I know that superior people are supposed by other superior people to be above enjoying video games, but I guess I'm just not that superior. Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
Clever. I will talk the DoD into implementing it with Google Tap! From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thu, June 14, 2012 8:31:47 PM Subject: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428202/quantum-cryptography-outperformed-by-classical/ The idea is straightforward. Alice wants to send Bob a message via an ordinary wire. At each end of the wire, there are two different resistors that correspond to a 0 or 1. Alice encodes her message by connecting these two resistors to the wire in the required sequence. Bob, on the other hand, connects his resistors to the wire at random. The crucial part of this set up is that the actual current and voltage through the wire is random, ideally Johnson noise. The essential features of this noise are determined by the combination of resistors at each end. This noise is public--anybody can see or measure it. Now here's the clever bit. Bob knows which resistor he connected to the wire and so can work out which resistor Alice must have connected. But Eve, who is listening in to the publicly available noise, does not know which resistor was connected at each end and cannot work it out either because the laws of thermodynamics prevent the extraction of this information from this kind of signal. - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin events
Oh by the way, many of you probably received my annual newsletter during the last couple of days. So you know about my book tour schedule, with in-person events in Seattle, Portland, the Bay Area, LA and San Diego area. Also see http://www.davidbrin.com for info about a Tweet extravaganza on 6/20 ( 1pm) #TorChat... and a Reddit Ask Me Anything marathon on 6/26! I assume you all have seen my new web site http://www.davidbrin.com ...and the fantastic preview trailer that Patrick Farley painted and executed for me! tinyurl.com/exist-trailer Sorry for the salesmanship, but I'm working hard! And it has been 8 years since a big brin book so I hope you don't mind! Best to all. davidb___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
On 6/15/2012 2:37 AM, KZK wrote: But Eve, who is listening in to the publicly available noise, does not know which resistor was connected at each end and cannot work it out either because the laws of thermodynamics prevent the extraction of this information from this kind of signal. So why isn't this susceptible to a simple man in the middle attack?: Eve cuts the wire between Alice and Bob (AB line) and insert her own node that connects to Alice (AE line) and Bob (BE Line) individually. Alice can't tell the difference between the AB line or the AE Line and sets her resisters. Eve sets her resisters connected on the AE line to random and deciphers the sequence that Alice used. Eve then Uses that sequence on the BE Line. Bob can't tell the difference between the AB line and the BE line, sets his resisters randomly and decodes the message. (Eve can even send Bob a False message). Seems like this method requires a 100% secure land line, which is impractical. KZK-- I believe that Alice and Bob are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously, and sharing their measurements over a separate open channel. (The paper says the voltage/current data on the noisy channel is public.) Furthermore, they're tossing all the trials where those data show they both picked the high resistors or both picked the low. So all Eve can usefully look at are data for essentially identical trials, each one with the noise characteristic of one high and one low resistor on the channel. Eve is free to relay noise between the two lines in your example, but that won't help her. If the land line is tapped in a useful manner, the claim is that Alice and Bob can detect that it is. So they'd need a land line, but wouldn't have to secure it. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
On 6/15/2012 2:37 AM, KZK wrote: But Eve, who is listening in to the publicly available noise, does not know which resistor was connected at each end and cannot work it out either because the laws of thermodynamics prevent the extraction of this information from this kind of signal. So why isn't this susceptible to a simple man in the middle attack?: Eve cuts the wire between Alice and Bob (AB line) and insert her own node that connects to Alice (AE line) and Bob (BE Line) individually. Alice can't tell the difference between the AB line or the AE Line and sets her resisters. Eve sets her resisters connected on the AE line to random and deciphers the sequence that Alice used. Eve then Uses that sequence on the BE Line. Bob can't tell the difference between the AB line and the BE line, sets his resisters randomly and decodes the message. (Eve can even send Bob a False message). Seems like this method requires a 100% secure land line, which is impractical. David Hobby Fri, 15 Jun 2012 06:31:29 -0700: I believe that Alice and Bob are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously, and sharing their measurements over a separate open channel. And so Eve man-in-the-middles the second connection too. So all of Alice and Bob's communications are with eve, so that (Eve and Alice) And (Eve and Bob) are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously (but not Alice and Bob, they have no connection with each other), and (Eve and Alice) And (Eve and Bob) are sharing their measurements over the separate lines (but not Alice and Bob, they have no connection with each other). Bob still can't tell the difference between Eve and Alice and Alice can't tell the difference between Eve and Bob. (The paper says the voltage/current data on the noisy channel is public.) Furthermore, they're tossing all the trials where those data show they both picked the high resistors or both picked the low. So all Eve can usefully look at are data for essentially identical trials, each one with the noise characteristic of one high and one low resistor on the channel. Eve is free to relay noise between the two lines in your example, but that won't help her. Doesn't matter, so long as Eve is between all communications channels. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
On 6/15/2012 2:14 PM, KZK wrote: Eve cuts the wire between Alice and Bob (AB line) and insert her own node that connects to Alice (AE line) and Bob (BE Line) individually. Alice can't tell the difference between the AB line or the AE Line and sets her resisters. Eve sets her resisters connected on the AE line to random and deciphers the sequence that Alice used. Eve then Uses that sequence on the BE Line. Bob can't tell the difference between the AB line and the BE line, sets his resisters randomly and decodes the message. (Eve can even send Bob a False message). David Hobby Fri, 15 Jun 2012 06:31:29 -0700: I believe that Alice and Bob are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously, and sharing their measurements over a separate open channel. And so Eve man-in-the-middles the second connection too. So all of Alice and Bob's communications are with eve, so that (Eve and Alice) And (Eve and Bob) are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously (but not Alice and Bob, they have no connection with each other), and (Eve and Alice) And (Eve and Bob) are sharing their measurements over the separate lines (but not Alice and Bob, they have no connection with each other). Bob still can't tell the difference between Eve and Alice and Alice can't tell the difference between Eve and Bob. ... Doesn't matter, so long as Eve is between all communications channels. Between ALL communications channels, even the public ones? That's asking rather a lot of Eve. I think there are a lot of people who would use a cryptographic system that required an additional open channel, confident that they could somehow route around Eve most of the time. (Alice and Bob could be just posting their versions of the public information on their respective websites, and checking that they agreed.) But yes, it's a minor flaw that was not mentioned in the press release. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin events
On Jun 14, 2012, at 11:21 PM, David Brin wrote: Sorry for the salesmanship, but I'm working hard! And it has been 8 years since a big brin book so I hope you don't mind! I think you can be forgiven, particularly if there's any chance that your Bay Area friends can buy you a drink while you're here. If you have any time in the evening, I'd like to see you, and one or two others maybe, too? Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
David Hobby Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:35:51 -0700: Between ALL communications channels, even the public ones? That's asking rather a lot of Eve. I think there are a lot of people who would use a cryptographic system that required an additional open channel, confident that they could somehow route around Eve most of the time. (Alice and Bob could be just posting their versions of the public information on their respective websites, and checking that they agreed.) So Eve Man-in-the-middles Bob's connection to his webserver. Bob thinks he's writing information to correlate with Alice. What actually happens is Eve replaces the data Bob uses with the data from the Eve-Alice connection. When Bob is connected to the website he see's the information he thinks he's posted (Because Eve knows to change it back for him, and only him, (also Alice's website data must be changed for Bob and only Bob)). Etc. Complicated? Yes, But plausible (this is sort of how the Sony Rootkit worked). But yes, it's a minor flaw that was not mentioned in the press release. Seems like it might be impractical. CITOKATE. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin events
Dave Land Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:04:21 -0700 I think you can be forgiven, particularly if there's any chance that your Bay Area friends can buy you a drink while you're here. If you have any time in the evening, I'd like to see you, and one or two others maybe, too? FYI: Pretty sure you need the colon in Brin: for messages to be sent to DB. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin events
Sure wish I could participate, but I'm headed to the Big Boulder conference, in Boulder, Colorado, that weekend... disappointed! Nick On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Dave Land dml...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 14, 2012, at 11:21 PM, David Brin wrote: Sorry for the salesmanship, but I'm working hard! And it has been 8 years since a big brin book so I hope you don't mind! I think you can be forgiven, particularly if there's any chance that your Bay Area friends can buy you a drink while you're here. If you have any time in the evening, I'd like to see you, and one or two others maybe, too? Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin events
At every stop, there should be a What's next? question. In a message dated 6/14/2012 11:21:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, db...@sbcglobal.net writes: Ask Me Anything marathon ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428202/quantum-cryptography-outperformed-by-classical/ The idea is straightforward. Alice wants to send Bob a message via an ordinary wire. At each end of the wire, there are two different resistors that correspond to a 0 or 1. Alice encodes her message by connecting these two resistors to the wire in the required sequence. Bob, on the other hand, connects his resistors to the wire at random. The crucial part of this set up is that the actual current and voltage through the wire is random, ideally Johnson noise. The essential features of this noise are determined by the combination of resistors at each end. This noise is public--anybody can see or measure it. Now here's the clever bit. Bob knows which resistor he connected to the wire and so can work out which resistor Alice must have connected. But Eve, who is listening in to the publicly available noise, does not know which resistor was connected at each end and cannot work it out either because the laws of thermodynamics prevent the extraction of this information from this kind of signal. - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
The idea is straightforward. Alice wants to send Bob a message via an ordinary wire. At each end of the wire, there are two different resistors that correspond to a 0 or 1. Alice encodes her message by connecting these two resistors to the wire in the required sequence. Bob, on the other hand, connects his resistors to the wire at random. The crucial part of this set up is that the actual current and voltage through the wire is random, ideally Johnson noise. The essential features of this noise are determined by the combination of resistors at each end. This noise is public--anybody can see or measure it. Now here's the clever bit. Bob knows which resistor he connected to the wire and so can work out which resistor Alice must have connected. But Eve, who is listening in to the publicly available noise, does not know which resistor was connected at each end and cannot work it out either because the laws of thermodynamics prevent the extraction of this information from this kind of signal. So why isn't this susceptible to a simple man in the middle attack?: Eve cuts the wire between Alice and Bob (AB line) and insert her own node that connects to Alice (AE line) and Bob (BE Line) individually. Alice can't tell the difference between the AB line or the AE Line and sets her resisters. Eve sets her resisters connected on the AE line to random and deciphers the sequence that Alice used. Eve then Uses that sequence on the BE Line. Bob can't tell the difference between the AB line and the BE line, sets his resisters randomly and decodes the message. (Eve can even send Bob a False message). Seems like this method requires a 100% secure land line, which is impractical. - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Debunking the Myth of Intuition
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/interview-with-daniel-kahneman-on-the-pitfalls-of-intuition-and-memory-a-834407-druck.html ... Kahneman: Yes. Psychologists distinguish between a System 1 and a System 2, which control our actions. System 1 represents what we may call intuition. It tirelessly provides us with quick impressions, intentions and feelings. System 2, on the other hand, represents reason, self-control and intelligence. SPIEGEL: In other words, our conscious self? Kahneman: Yes. System 2 is the one who believes that it's making the decisions. But in reality, most of the time, System 1 is acting on its own, without your being aware of it. It's System 1 that decides whether you like a person, which thoughts or associations come to mind, and what you feel about something. All of this happens automatically. You can't help it, and yet you often base your decisions on it. SPIEGEL: And this System 1 never sleeps? Kahneman: That's right. System 1 can never be switched off. You can't stop it from doing its thing. System 2, on the other hand, is lazy and only becomes active when necessary. Slow, deliberate thinking is hard work. It consumes chemical resources in the brain, and people usually don't like that. ... - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Debunking the Myth of Intuition
The one area where Sigmund Freud offered breakthrough insights of profound and permanent value was by demonstrating conclusively that the unconscious mind exists, that it has agendas that often differ from our surface rationalizations, values and proclaimed beliefs, and that it can affect our decisions and biases before we even begin consciously weighing them. Alas, like so many other brilliant men, Freud went on to make unjustified leaps of elaboration that - ironically - erupted out of his own tortured unconscious. Still, science is continuing the verify the origical insight. This rumination discusses how difficult it is to be sure we are being truly rational. Take it as a caution. And repeat the sacred statement of science. “I might be wrong.” From:KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent:Tue, May 29, 2012 8:56:58 AM Subject:Brin: Debunking the Myth of Intuition http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/interview-with-daniel-kahneman-on-the-pitfalls-of-intuition-and-memory-a-834407-druck.html ... Kahneman: Yes. Psychologists distinguish between a System 1 and a System 2, which control our actions. System 1 represents what we may call intuition. It tirelessly provides us with quick impressions, intentions and feelings. System 2, on the other hand, represents reason, self-control and intelligence. SPIEGEL: In other words, our conscious self? Kahneman: Yes. System 2 is the one who believes that it's making the decisions. But in reality, most of the time, System 1 is acting on its own, without your being aware of it. It's System 1 that decides whether you like a person, which thoughts or associations come to mind, and what you feel about something. All of this happens automatically. You can't help it, and yet you often base your decisions on it. SPIEGEL: And this System 1 never sleeps? Kahneman: That's right. System 1 can never be switched off. You can't stop it from doing its thing. System 2, on the other hand, is lazy and only becomes active when necessary. Slow, deliberate thinking is hard work. It consumes chemical resources in the brain, and people usually don't like that. ... - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Debunking the Myth of Intuition
I might be wrong, but… This discussion reminded me of Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, which argues for paying more attention to what this piece refers to as System 1. That rapid-response part of our brain may have more value to us than our rational minds want to give credit. Also, it put me in mind of an excellent episode of Radiolab (http://www.radiolab.org/2008/nov/17/) that dealt with the seeming independence of emotional thought from rational. Dave On May 29, 2012, at 11:20 AM, David Brin wrote: The one area where Sigmund Freud offered breakthrough insights of profound and permanent value was by demonstrating conclusively that the unconscious mind exists, that it has agendas that often differ from our surface rationalizations, values and proclaimed beliefs, and that it can affect our decisions and biases before we even begin consciously weighing them. Alas, like so many other brilliant men, Freud went on to make unjustified leaps of elaboration that - ironically - erupted out of his own tortured unconscious. Still, science is continuing the verify the origical insight. This rumination discusses how difficult it is to be sure we are being truly rational. Take it as a caution. And repeat the sacred statement of science. “I might be wrong.” From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tue, May 29, 2012 8:56:58 AM Subject: Brin: Debunking the Myth of Intuition http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/interview-with-daniel-kahneman-on-the-pitfalls-of-intuition-and-memory-a-834407-druck.html ... Kahneman: Yes. Psychologists distinguish between a System 1 and a System 2, which control our actions. System 1 represents what we may call intuition. It tirelessly provides us with quick impressions, intentions and feelings. System 2, on the other hand, represents reason, self-control and intelligence. SPIEGEL: In other words, our conscious self? Kahneman: Yes. System 2 is the one who believes that it's making the decisions. But in reality, most of the time, System 1 is acting on its own, without your being aware of it. It's System 1 that decides whether you like a person, which thoughts or associations come to mind, and what you feel about something. All of this happens automatically. You can't help it, and yet you often base your decisions on it. SPIEGEL: And this System 1 never sleeps? Kahneman: That's right. System 1 can never be switched off. You can't stop it from doing its thing. System 2, on the other hand, is lazy and only becomes active when necessary. Slow, deliberate thinking is hard work. It consumes chemical resources in the brain, and people usually don't like that. ... - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Debunking the Myth of Intuition
System 1 made me read these emails.___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Brin: On Gasoline
I think that something is missing in the charts that argue for a great drop in gasoline. If you look at the official gasoline consumption chart, it gives a very different story: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PETs=MGFUPUS1f=M There's been a 10% drop since the peak in 2007, but we're at the 2001 levels. If you look at the 78-81 drop it was 50^ bigger, and consumption doesn't hit the 78 numbers until '93 even though prices went through the floor in '86. And, ethanol has been a highly subsidized substitute, which should lower gasoline consumption about 3%, even with fuel consumption constant. In other words, someone is manipulating numbers. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: On Gasoline
Dan Minette wrote: And, ethanol has been a highly subsidized substitute, which should lower gasoline consumption about 3%, even with fuel consumption constant. BTW, isn't it funny that, in 2011, Brazil was a huge importer of USA's ethanol? So, the american taxpayers are financing brazilian sugar exports. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Brin: On Gasoline
BTW, isn't it funny that, in 2011, Brazil was a huge importer of USA's ethanol? So, the american taxpayers are financing brazilian sugar exports. Yes, it shows that that the most critical factor in determining America's interest is who wins the Iowa caucus. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: On Gasoline
On 2/11/2012 5:50 PM, KZK wrote: http://www.oftwominds.com/blogfeb12/gasoline-tanking02-12.html http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/02/huge-plunge-in-petroleum-and-gasoline.html Moar: http://www.oftwominds.com/blogfeb12/energy-consumption-dropping02-12.html - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: On Gasoline
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogfeb12/gasoline-tanking02-12.html http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/02/huge-plunge-in-petroleum-and-gasoline.html - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Infinite Stupidity
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 10:34 AM, David Brin db...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Alas, Pagel spins a just-so story that is conveniently and charmingly free of reference to historical facts. For example, he ignores the fact that innovation sped up, intensely and supra-liearly, as the number of individuals in a society increased. Agrarian clans and then kingdoms allocated surplus food to specialists, rewarding them for talent and expertise, sometimes in accurate correlation to their effectiveness at innovation. I had the same reaction - absolutely true. What changed 500 years ago when the printing press had the kind of effect we're seeing today was that innovation was stimulated by access to new, diverse points of view. The more sources you have, the more points of view become available, even though the vast majority of people will copy, as he says, others. Even if the vast majority of people never pay attention to more than one POV (e.g., only believe Faux News), if only a small percentage are stimulated by access to a variety, that has always stimulated creativity and development. Innovation is driven by curiosity, which in turn is fueled by cheap distribution of diverse viewpoints and ideas. It doesn't matter if the vast majority isn't curious or innovative, it only takes a few. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Infinite Stupidity
Edge never fails to disappoint. http://edge.org/conversation/infinite-stupidity-edge-conversation-with-mark-pagel --- It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Brin: Infinite Stupidity
Prone to fads defines every urbanized civilization I've ever heard of, and tribal societies are less given to innovation that he thinks, because the traditional lore is a store of highly specialized local knowledge about conditions whose changes are well understood. Even the odd once-in-a-lifetime events can usually be answered by consulting one of the elders or grandmothers. It's my guess that innovation is the hallmark of an expanding or frontier society where all bets are off and great benefits can be had from it. Or in borderlands where cultures interact. Because a lot of what he describes as docile copying and getting our information from the society at large can also be interpreted as it is not rational to reinvent the wheel! Unless it's not working for you. And there is the other condition for innovation - to be subject to a clumsy procedure or machine and grit your teeth and mutter Bad design. VERY bad design. I could do better. And be able to do it. In which case all that culturally accumulated knowledge is there to serve you. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 06:54:29 -0600 From: evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Brin: Infinite Stupidity Edge never fails to disappoint. http://edge.org/conversation/infinite-stupidity-edge-conversation-with-mark-pagel --- It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Infinite Stupidity
Unbelievably pathetic. thx From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sat, December 17, 2011 4:54:29 AM Subject: Brin: Infinite Stupidity Edge never fails to disappoint. http://edge.org/conversation/infinite-stupidity-edge-conversation-with-mark-pagel --- It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Infinite Stupidity
Alas, Pagel spins a just-so story that is conveniently and charmingly free of reference to historical facts. For example, he ignores the fact that innovation sped up, intensely and supra-liearly, as the number of individuals in a society increased. Agrarian clans and then kingdoms allocated surplus food to specialists, rewarding them for talent and expertise, sometimes in accurate correlation to their effectiveness at innovation. Competitively striving to attain that status, youths who became scribes, blacksmiths, tool-makers, engineers and priests must have achieved enhanced reproductive ability almost equal to the feudal lords who soon dominated every society. Hence, a proclivity for nerdiness would increase... though not quite in pace with an ever-rising tendency toward oligarchy. From: Pat Mathews mathew...@msn.com To: Brin List brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sat, December 17, 2011 6:03:00 AM Subject: RE: Brin: Infinite Stupidity Prone to fads defines every urbanized civilization I've ever heard of, and tribal societies are less given to innovation that he thinks, because the traditional lore is a store of highly specialized local knowledge about conditions whose changes are well understood. Even the odd once-in-a-lifetime events can usually be answered by consulting one of the elders or grandmothers. It's my guess that innovation is the hallmark of an expanding or frontier society where all bets are off and great benefits can be had from it. Or in borderlands where cultures interact. Because a lot of what he describes as docile copying and getting our information from the society at large can also be interpreted as it is not rational to reinvent the wheel! Unless it's not working for you. And there is the other condition for innovation - to be subject to a clumsy procedure or machine and grit your teeth and mutter Bad design. VERY bad design. I could do better. And be able to do it. In which case all that culturally accumulated knowledge is there to serve you. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 06:54:29 -0600 From: evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Brin: Infinite Stupidity Edge never fails to disappoint. http://edge.org/conversation/infinite-stupidity-edge-conversation-with-mark-pagel l --- It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Libertarianism and the Leap of Faith • The Origins of a Political Cult
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/philip-pilkington-libertarianism-and-the-leap-of-faith-%e2%80%93-the-origins-of-a-political-cult.html Which dovetails rather nicely into this long socratic dialog: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-i-%e2%80%93the-vision.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-ii-%e2%80%93-the-strategy.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-iii-%e2%80%93-regulation.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-iv-%e2%80%93-the-journey-into-a-libertarian-past.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-v-%e2%80%93-dark-realities.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-vi-%e2%80%93-certainty.html - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: on Debt, Democracy, and all that
On 12/5/2011 12:51 AM, David Brin wrote: Wow, this was more interesting than I expected it to be. On Debt, Democracy, and all that... http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/michael-hudson-debt-and-democracy-has-the-link-been-broken.html Only the best for the good doctor. What with 700+ Trillion in derivatives outstanding... Huge exaggeration. 700 trillion was artificially lent to banks so that their balance sheets would show enough capital so they would not have to be closed. They then used it to buy treasury bonds.. Most of it is not missing. You're conflating a few things. Here: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-700-trillion-elephant-room-theres http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/10/stock-market-time-bomb/?page=all http://www.ied.info/articles/an-honest-bank-is-so-simple-you-can-run-it/hedge-funds-hedging-risk-becomes-infinite-risk You see Derivatives are like Gambles (or Gambles on Gambles) (Or Gambles on Gambles on Gambles), Sort of like getting fire insurance on your neighbors house, and then doing things to increase the likelihood that your neighbors house burns down, etc. HTH. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: on Debt, Democracy, and all that
BTW... I hope you all know that Brin-L style elevated discussions take place regularly under the Comments section, beneath each of my regular blog postings at http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/ A great blogmunity. And, if you call it an extension of Brin-L... one of the oldest on the Net! Hoping you all have happy holidays and a great 2012...* warm regards david brin * The year my big novel EXISTENCE comes out! (June ;-)___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: on Debt, Democracy, and all that
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/michael-hudson-debt-and-democracy-has-the-link-been-broken.html What with 700+ Trillion in derivatives outstanding... --- It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: on Debt, Democracy, and all that
Wow, this was more interesting than I expected it to be. On Debt, Democracy, and all that... http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/michael-hudson-debt-and-democracy-has-the-link-been-broken.html What with 700+ Trillion in derivatives outstanding... Huge exaggeration. 700 trillion was artificially lent to banks so that their balance sheets would show enough capital so they would not have to be closed. They then used it to buy treasury bonds.. Most of it is not missing.___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Jon Louis Mann net_democr...@yahoo.com wrote: (Keith wrote) David Brin, Greg Bear and Gregory Benford were all on a panel at Renovation last week. Amusing event. I brought up cryonics. Everyone in the audience was aware of it, several people were thinking about it for themselves and of course Gregory and I were signed up. There were around a dozen at the con who were already signed up. Keith Henson (Signed up since 1985 and helped freeze 19 people) Keith, are you with Alcor? Yes. I've been thinking about it for years, but haven't seen anyone at cons lately to sign people up. If you are serious about it, at least get insurance (unless you can afford it out of pocket, and even then, insurance is a good way to assure the funding will be there). I'm curious why so many deceased SF authors never signed up... They don't seem to be much more likely to sign up than the rest of the population. As for why, ask them, but expect rationalizations rather then reason. Keith ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: On Fracking and Earthquakes
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/08/human-activity-can-cause-earthquakes/ - It’s cheap to maintain Lies and expensive to maintain Trvth. --KZK's Maxim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 8
For me if you like having meaningful conversatuons with people you can in plus facebook and other sicial networks do not do ot even half as good.:-) the abilty to manage streams of people into circles is amazing. like i set up the briners as one of my circles so if i want to post something only to them i write and select this circle and gies directly to them. But tgis is only a tiny advantage to many to respond via my smart phone :-) Sent from Samsung Mobile Call Me On 00353868488153 Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com wrote: Hi Alex -- Can you tell me why I'd want Google+? I just got a smart phone, and so far it's smarter than I am. I had to set up a Google account for that. Thanks. Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com On 7/22/11 11:00 AM, brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com wrote: Send Brin-l mailing list submissions to brin-l@mccmedia.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com You can reach the person managing the list at brin-l-ow...@mccmedia.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Brin-l digest... Today's Topics: 1. google (Jon Louis Mann) 2. Re: google (Alex Gogan) 3. Re: google (Kevin O'Brien) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Louis Mann net_democr...@yahoo.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: google Message-ID: 1311276525.21479.yahoomailclas...@web110014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii me too...~) -- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:07:47 +0100 From: Alex Gogan a...@gogan.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e2921c3.4060...@gogan.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards On 21/07/2011 20:28, Jon Louis Mann wrote: me too...~) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com -- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:57:19 -0400 From: Kevin O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e299ddf.3050...@zwilnik.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/22/2011 3:07 AM, Alex Gogan wrote: Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards If you have any left, my gmail account is ahuka5...@gmail.com. Thanks, ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 8
Hi Alex -- Can you tell me why I'd want Google+? I just got a smart phone, and so far it's smarter than I am. I had to set up a Google account for that. Thanks. Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com On 7/22/11 11:00 AM, brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com wrote: Send Brin-l mailing list submissions to brin-l@mccmedia.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com You can reach the person managing the list at brin-l-ow...@mccmedia.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Brin-l digest... Today's Topics: 1. google (Jon Louis Mann) 2. Re: google (Alex Gogan) 3. Re: google (Kevin O'Brien) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Louis Mann net_democr...@yahoo.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: google Message-ID: 1311276525.21479.yahoomailclas...@web110014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii me too...~) -- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:07:47 +0100 From: Alex Gogan a...@gogan.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e2921c3.4060...@gogan.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards On 21/07/2011 20:28, Jon Louis Mann wrote: me too...~) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com -- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:57:19 -0400 From: Kevin O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e299ddf.3050...@zwilnik.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/22/2011 3:07 AM, Alex Gogan wrote: Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards If you have any left, my gmail account is ahuka5...@gmail.com. Thanks, ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 8
Hi Jo Anne, G+ is cool in that you can set up different circles of people and then post to one, a few or all of them. You can have a brin-l circle and use it kind of like the email list since, at the click of a button you can view just the brin-l (or family or friend etc) posts. There are a few other differences from FB, but I haven't experimented with any of them yet. Doug On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com wrote: Hi Alex -- Can you tell me why I'd want Google+? I just got a smart phone, and so far it's smarter than I am. I had to set up a Google account for that. Thanks. Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com On 7/22/11 11:00 AM, brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com wrote: Send Brin-l mailing list submissions to brin-l@mccmedia.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com You can reach the person managing the list at brin-l-ow...@mccmedia.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Brin-l digest... Today's Topics: 1. google (Jon Louis Mann) 2. Re: google (Alex Gogan) 3. Re: google (Kevin O'Brien) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Louis Mann net_democr...@yahoo.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: google Message-ID: 1311276525.21479.yahoomailclas...@web110014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii me too...~) -- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:07:47 +0100 From: Alex Gogan a...@gogan.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e2921c3.4060...@gogan.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards On 21/07/2011 20:28, Jon Louis Mann wrote: me too...~) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com -- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:57:19 -0400 From: Kevin O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e299ddf.3050...@zwilnik.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/22/2011 3:07 AM, Alex Gogan wrote: Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards If you have any left, my gmail account is ahuka5...@gmail.com. Thanks, ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 8
I have found Google+ to be way more engaging interesting than Facebook and Twitter, and very good platform for having discussions sharing knowledge. There are already quite a few Brin Listers using Google Plus; Alex, Doug myself, plus David Brin, Dave Land and a couple of others that haven't posted yet. Regards, Wayne. On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: Hi Jo Anne, G+ is cool in that you can set up different circles of people and then post to one, a few or all of them. You can have a brin-l circle and use it kind of like the email list since, at the click of a button you can view just the brin-l (or family or friend etc) posts. There are a few other differences from FB, but I haven't experimented with any of them yet. Doug On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com wrote: Hi Alex -- Can you tell me why I'd want Google+? I just got a smart phone, and so far it's smarter than I am. I had to set up a Google account for that. Thanks. Jo Anne evens...@hevanet.com On 7/22/11 11:00 AM, brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com wrote: Send Brin-l mailing list submissions to brin-l@mccmedia.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to brin-l-requ...@mccmedia.com You can reach the person managing the list at brin-l-ow...@mccmedia.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Brin-l digest... Today's Topics: 1. google (Jon Louis Mann) 2. Re: google (Alex Gogan) 3. Re: google (Kevin O'Brien) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Louis Mann net_democr...@yahoo.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: google Message-ID: 1311276525.21479.yahoomailclas...@web110014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii me too...~) -- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:07:47 +0100 From: Alex Gogan a...@gogan.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e2921c3.4060...@gogan.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards On 21/07/2011 20:28, Jon Louis Mann wrote: me too...~) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com -- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:57:19 -0400 From: Kevin O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: google Message-ID: 4e299ddf.3050...@zwilnik.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 7/22/2011 3:07 AM, Alex Gogan wrote: Hi Jon, No probs but you need to get a gmail email account which are free www.gmail.com and can send out the invite. If there are any others have some invites left. Also if any of you guys are interested in joining my circle just look out for me, alex.go...@gmail.com Regards If you have any left, my gmail account is ahuka5...@gmail.com. Thanks, ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Long Time Old Brin-Ler finally gets a real job.
It's about time, the slacker! :) Matthew ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Long Time Old Brin-Ler finally gets a real job.
I thought a few old timers might be interested in the news that Gautam has just gotten an offer of a professorship at Harvard Business School. It does sound like a mis-match, his PhD was in international affairs and security studies. But, his dissertation was on leadership, and it applies very well to organizational studies, so they offered him the position. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Long Time Old Brin-Ler finally gets a real job.
Congrats! On Feb 14, 2011 11:10 AM, Dan Minette danmine...@att.net wrote: I thought a few old timers might be interested in the news that Gautam has just gotten an offer of a professorship at Harvard Business School. It does sound like a mis-match, his PhD was in international affairs and security studies. But, his dissertation was on leadership, and it applies very well to organizational studies, so they offered him the position. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Brin: Why we still use rockets . . .
The truth seems to be between these two arguments. I think that's valid. Rockets were a technology who's time had come. I think the fact that delivering 1000 bombs could destroy a nation had something to do with how quickly they were developed at first, but in a world that had a jet starting to be tested by Germany in WWII, and the X-15, the technology was there for rockets, especially if they could be designed and built on a cost plus basis. But, they are based on fast, but not too fast, power output from available chemical energy. Everything indicates that building rockets up to the Saturn V was simply applying known physics and chemistry. But, I haven't heard of a propellant with, say, 10x the energy density of the propellants used in the '60s. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but since that time, we've been able to increase the density of semiconductor chips by more than a factor of a million in less than 40 years. In a real sense, the economy has been dependant on this, and knock offs of this during that time. That might seem strange, since Microsoft isn't in the top 10 companies and PC manufacturers come and go. But, a lot of it has to do with how the rest of us can do our jobs. Wall-Mart's big gamble in the late 80s and early 90s was to spend its money, not on stores, but on computer based inventory management. My buddies who created geosteering could not have done it if the cost of computing was as high as it was only 10 years earlier. 4-D seismic wouldn't have existedand these are just a few things off the top of my head. The real driver for new technology is the physics/chemistry/biology which form the landscape that inventors explore. It's true that an ill prepared explorer will probably find nothing. But, I think rockets worked because the technology and science of the 30s and 40s were enough to form a basis. We haven't progressed much since the '60s because the basic question of propulsion doesn't have a clear way to increase bang for the buck. Without that, we have to work hard for modest improvements. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Why we still use rockets . . .
Although I normally like Stirling Newberry this deconstruction is not one of his better blog posts. The truth seems to be between these two arguments. On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Wayne Eddy darkenf...@gmail.com wrote: The deconstruction seems more reasonable than the article to me. On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 7:44 AM, KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Ronn! Blankenship Space stasis: What the strange persistence of rockets can teach us about innovation. - By Neal Stephenson - Slate Magazine - http://www.slate.com/id/2283469/ I just read an article that completely deconstructed that article: http://www.correntewire.com/shape_social_progress_i Which basically says the Stephenson article is Fractally Wrong: Wrong at at every level of resolution. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com -- Gary Denton Increase your vocabulary game - feed the poor: http://www.freerice.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Why we still use rockets . . .
Ronn! Blankenship Space stasis: What the strange persistence of rockets can teach us about innovation. - By Neal Stephenson - Slate Magazine - http://www.slate.com/id/2283469/ I just read an article that completely deconstructed that article: http://www.correntewire.com/shape_social_progress_i Which basically says the Stephenson article is Fractally Wrong: Wrong at at every level of resolution. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Why we still use rockets . . .
The deconstruction seems more reasonable than the article to me. On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 7:44 AM, KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Ronn! Blankenship Space stasis: What the strange persistence of rockets can teach us about innovation. - By Neal Stephenson - Slate Magazine - http://www.slate.com/id/2283469/ I just read an article that completely deconstructed that article: http://www.correntewire.com/shape_social_progress_i Which basically says the Stephenson article is Fractally Wrong: Wrong at at every level of resolution. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Why we still use rockets . . .
Space stasis: What the strange persistence of rockets can teach us about innovation. - By Neal Stephenson - Slate Magazine - http://www.slate.com/id/2283469/ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Real inventions since 1970
Mel Brooks had the answer for the 1960s, if you remember your 2000 Year Old Man. Vilyehm ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Real inventions since 1970
Steve Roth asks an interesting question about the number and type of real inventions since the seventies (that aren't just improvements of existing inventions): http://www.asymptosis.com/name-one-really-big-invention-since-1970-besides-the-internet.html Optical media? (CD, LaserDisc, DVD, Blu) Hard Drives? ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Real inventions since 1970
At 04:48 PM Monday 1/31/2011, KZK wrote: Steve Roth asks an interesting question about the number and type of real inventions since the seventies (that aren't just improvements of existing inventions): http://www.asymptosis.com/name-one-really-big-invention-since-1970-besides-the-internet.html Optical media? (CD, LaserDisc, DVD, Blu) Hard Drives? Hard drives in the sense of a rigid substrate coated with a magnetic substance certainly existed in 1970. This is a type I used in those days: http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-VINTAGE-DISK-PLATTER-2135-2-THESE-/320621059587 on an IBM 1130: http://www.ibm1130.net/functional/DiskStorage.html with a platter about a foot across (about the size of a LP record album from the day) inside the pictured enclosure (which some compared to a pizza carrier) that had a capacity (as measured today) of about 1 megabyte. (And the price this guy wants for these two is just about the same numerical price they sold for in the early 70s!) Put a few of them together on a spindle and you got a disk pack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_IBM_disk_storage . . . ronn! :) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
All's quiet on the Brin front...
What's to discuss? The bloke committed treason. (Against a country he's not a citizen of, and merely be being in charge of an organisation that receives and publishes material provided by whistleblowers, which is mostly checked and redacted for personal or currently sensitive details... but it's still EVIL V) End of. ;-) C. Given the name of this list, it surprises me there has not been more discussion about recent events. Keith For shame, Charlie, AND top posting!~) Maybe Keith was talking about discussion about SF? There has been a lot of political discussion on Brin's Facebook page. So far I've been blocked by at least three people; could it be something I said?~) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: (Ignoring Murphy's Law) kills
Three days ago, a brazilian teenager was killed in hospital, because instead of saline solution, the nurse gave her vaseline. The reason was that the idiots that produced those products made _identical_ vessels for them, with the difference being a minuscule identification label. Murphy's Law is exactly the way to prevent those stupid errors. Text (in Portuguese): http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Stephane Here an image of the two vessels: http://g1.globo.com/jornal-nacional/noticia/2010/12/mae-diz-que-auxiliar-de- enfermagem-colocou-frasco-de-vaselina-em-sp.html Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: (Ignoring Murphy's Law) kills
eeek! From: Alberto Monteiro albm...@centroin.com.br To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 3:31:53 AM Subject: Brin: (Ignoring Murphy's Law) kills Three days ago, a brazilian teenager was killed in hospital, because instead of saline solution, the nurse gave her vaseline. The reason was that the idiots that produced those products made _identical_ vessels for them, with the difference being a minuscule identification label. Murphy's Law is exactly the way to prevent those stupid errors. Text (in Portuguese): http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Stephane Here an image of the two vessels: http://g1.globo.com/jornal-nacional/noticia/2010/12/mae-diz-que-auxiliar-de- enfermagem-colocou-frasco-de-vaselina-em-sp.html Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: (Ignoring Murphy's Law) kills
On Dec 7, 2010, at 5:31 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Three days ago, a brazilian teenager was killed in hospital, because instead of saline solution, the nurse gave her vaseline. The reason was that the idiots that produced those products made _identical_ vessels for them, with the difference being a minuscule identification label. Murphy's Law is exactly the way to prevent those stupid errors. Text (in Portuguese): http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Stephane Here an image of the two vessels: http://g1.globo.com/jornal-nacional/noticia/2010/12/mae-diz-que-auxiliar-de- enfermagem-colocou-frasco-de-vaselina-em-sp.html Alberto Monteiro Translation of the latter link (machine translation, but more or less intelligible): http://tinyurl.com/2vxjxxn Yes, those are pretty hard to tell apart. Doesn't mean it's not at least doubly important to read the labels, but yes, that was probably going to happen sooner or later ... :( The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed, hasn't he, Percy? -- Edmund, Lord Blackadder ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Hrm
saw it! From: KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 11:04:50 PM Subject: Brin: Hrm http://amultiverse.com/2010/09/29/dont-ask-dont-swim/ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Hrm
Related T-Shirt: http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODStore_Code=TOProduct_Code=GOAT-DONTASKCategory_Code=GOAT On 12/3/2010 1:21 PM, David Brin wrote: saw it! *From:* KZK evil.ke...@gmail.com *To:* brin-l@mccmedia.com *Sent:* Thu, December 2, 2010 11:04:50 PM *Subject:* Brin: Hrm http://amultiverse.com/2010/09/29/dont-ask-dont-swim/ -- --Max Battcher-- http://worldmaker.net ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Brin: Hrm
http://amultiverse.com/2010/09/29/dont-ask-dont-swim/ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Arguing Doesn't Work: Fact Vs Belief
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Michael Harney dolp...@mikes3dgallery.com wrote: Dawkins addresses this a bit in his book _The God Delusion_. Evolutionarily, it makes sense. Children cannot afford to disbelieve things that are told to them by elders. Doing so means consuming poisonous things or getting too close to lions or other dangerous predators. That seems tautological to me, since it is only true if what you're being told is true. Believing false information of that nature would be selected against, so one could imagine that humans could have evolved a strong sense of when to believe those in authority. Besides, some of us had parents who taught us to be skeptical of authority. I'm fairly sure DB's kids have been taught that! Be skeptical of authority, kid. Why? Because I'm your father and I said so. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Arguing Doesn't Work: Fact Vs Belief
On 11/21/2010 10:17 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Michael Harney dolp...@mikes3dgallery.com mailto:dolp...@mikes3dgallery.com wrote: Dawkins addresses this a bit in his book _The God Delusion_. Evolutionarily, it makes sense. Children cannot afford to disbelieve things that are told to them by elders. Doing so means consuming poisonous things or getting too close to lions or other dangerous predators. That seems tautological to me, since it is only true if what you're being told is true. Believing false information of that nature would be selected against, so one could imagine that humans could have evolved a strong sense of when to believe those in authority. Actually, false ideas would only be selected against if those ideas had negative survival value. If the survival value is neutral, then the idea and the people who believe it continue. Or, an idea may have negative survival value for the individual, but positive value for the group. ex: the Aztecs would sacrifice people to the gods during times of famine to try and appease the gods to end the famine. Though bad for the individual being sacrificed, whether or not the famine ended, the group would be better off as there would be less mouths to feed and fewer people would starve. You do have a point though as teenagers actually lose judgment and consequence ability in their early teen years, it makes it more likely for them to disregard what they have been taught, making it more likely to try something that they were told was bad. Any thing that has negative consequence is likely to be witnessed by others and the taboo reinforced, but expectations to can influence what a person sees. If the parents said Say your prayers every morning and night or bad things will happen. If a rebellious teen stops saying their prayers, they are more likely to interpret any bad thing that happens as a direct consequence of not saying their prayers as that is what they expect. In this way, people may end up crediting the wrong idea for good or bad results resulting in neutral ideas being sustained. Besides, some of us had parents who taught us to be skeptical of authority. I'm fairly sure DB's kids have been taught that! Be skeptical of authority, kid. Why? Because I'm your father and I said so. Nick True, but the idea of teaching children to question authority is a relatively new one, or rather, it is one that only a small portion of the population engaged in until recently. Even now I would say it is still a small minority of the population. If holy texts are any indicator, questioning authority back in much older times usually ended in the questioning person being killed. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Arguing Doesn't Work: Fact Vs Belief
My questionnaire include some digs at the notion of Toxic Memes. http://www.davidbrin.com/questionnaire.html From: Michael Harney dolp...@mikes3dgallery.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sun, November 21, 2010 9:55:54 AM Subject: Re: Brin: Arguing Doesn't Work: Fact Vs Belief On 11/21/2010 10:17 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Michael Harney dolp...@mikes3dgallery.com wrote: Dawkins addresses this a bit in his book _The God Delusion_. Evolutionarily, it makes sense. Children cannot afford to disbelieve things that are told to them by elders. Doing so means consuming poisonous things or getting too close to lions or other dangerous predators. That seems tautological to me, since it is only true if what you're being told is true. Believing false information of that nature would be selected against, so one could imagine that humans could have evolved a strong sense of when to believe those in authority. Actually, false ideas would only be selected against if those ideas had negative survival value. If the survival value is neutral, then the idea and the people who believe it continue. Or, an idea may have negative survival value for the individual, but positive value for the group. ex: the Aztecs would sacrifice people to the gods during times of famine to try and appease the gods to end the famine. Though bad for the individual being sacrificed, whether or not the famine ended, the group would be better off as there would be less mouths to feed and fewer people would starve. You do have a point though as teenagers actually lose judgment and consequence ability in their early teen years, it makes it more likely for them to disregard what they have been taught, making it more likely to try something that they were told was bad. Any thing that has negative consequence is likely to be witnessed by others and the taboo reinforced, but expectations to can influence what a person sees. If the parents said Say your prayers every morning and night or bad things will happen. If a rebellious teen stops saying their prayers, they are more likely to interpret any bad thing that happens as a direct consequence of not saying their prayers as that is what they expect. In this way, people may end up crediting the wrong idea for good or bad results resulting in neutral ideas being sustained. Besides, some of us had parents who taught us to be skeptical of authority. I'm fairly sure DB's kids have been taught that! Be skeptical of authority, kid. Why? Because I'm your father and I said so. Nick True, but the idea of teaching children to question authority is a relatively new one, or rather, it is one that only a small portion of the population engaged in until recently. Even now I would say it is still a small minority of the population. If holy texts are any indicator, questioning authority back in much older times usually ended in the questioning person being killed. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
