RE: No Americans Need Apply
Jan Coffey wrote: That's weird..using Hindi at work I mean. Your company did land up with a lot of impolite jerks. It's common practice. I am not talking about just one company here. It is still weird, especially since Hindi isn't the language in which this work is done here in India. And I haven't even touched upon the rudeness factor. Although some Indean Americans are able to avoid anti white, hispanic, chinese, black etc. racesim, they still are subject to the classism when applicable. I am not sure how you define 'classism' here. I would have assumed that the Indians are prey to casteism and regionalism. Indean Americans are being hurt by these situations just as much as non-Indean Americans. As is Chinese Americans etc. etc. The sad thing is, that some poeople don't understand this, and there is begining to be quite a bit of raceism here. 3 Indeans have been killed this year in apparent acts of racial violence. I think the Indians are beginning to realise this. There seems to be a reverse brain drain, especially in the IT sector, where a lot of Indians from US and Europe are moving back to India - some to work for the same companies, some in new jobs. There is already a massive baclash in US and Europe against the Indian IT industry which has led the govt. to insist that the industry starts focusing on South-East Asia as its next market. When Indeans and Chinese get to the point where they have enough numbers in a company, the culture begins to become the norm. The workplace starts to function in that culture and under the rules and norms of that culture. For instance: I was once reprimanded for stacking books on the ground to be able to reach a mouse on a high shelf. It seams that stepping on a book is somehow taboo in the Indean culture. I was told that I was being offensive and recieved a reprimand which excluded me from promotion. FOR STEPPING ON A BOOK! for ciseakes. Excluding you from promotion was ridiculous but, yes, we do have a taboo against stepping on books/printed material, throwing the same on the gound...basically anything which suggests that one is being less than respectful towards knowledge. My friend (ethnicaly Indean) ran into many of the same type of issues. He told his new Indean boss that the architecture had an issue that should be corrected. His boss told him that he expected better behavior from him, and that he should know better than to question his boss. Now this can happen anywhere from a control freak boss, but this one was specific about the code of conduct being and Indean one and that he intended to run his department to those standards and that culture. But didn't your friend tell him that not questioning one's bosses *isn't* Indian culture? American and Indean, and Chinses cultures are very differnt. I think that an American in Indea whould be expected to adopt the local customs. I am not so sure about the local customs but any employee here would be expected to follow the culture/rules of the management. The rules would certainly not be uniform even in different companies in the same city. But when Indeans are in an american company it is the American expected to adopt their customs. I think this is going to be a problem in the years to come. There are just too many Indians and Chinese in the world and most of the citizens of both the countries have had an exposure to the rest of the world only in the last decade or so. And people do carry their culture with them when they travel and migrate. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: You should never make such assumptions. I do not make typographical errors. I make spelling errors becouse I am Dyslexic. This topic has been beat to death but if you want to learn more about dyslexia or why spell checkers do not solve the problem , i would be glad to entertain the conversation. Yesterday I watched a program in _Discovery Health_ about dyslexia. It seems that they were tracing the cause to some substance deficit, that can be found in nuts. [or something else]. There is a condition simmilar to Dyslexia that is caused by a deficit in a nurro transmiter. This consition, (cant remember the name) although simmilar to dyslexia has other very disturbing consequences Dyslexis do not experience. Be carefull when you hear the word Dyslexia, the word has been overloaded, and used in the discription of many conditions having nothing at all to do with real Dyslexia. That said, there is now even the acknolegment that there are several types of Dyslexia, and that it is a gray scale rather than boolean (you have it or you don't is not the case, you can have it mildly). The form I have is caused most probably by a diffenece in brain achitecture. Perhaps brought on by certain parts of the brain developing earlier than normal. This form makes phonetic, non logical accociations difficult becouse the part of the brain that does phonem recal has been programmed for some other function. This means that I can not read or write on automatic. I must perform these functions in the same way that many others would do long devision in their head. It is not a condition that can be solved by eating oats. I was angry when majority of Indeans made it into managment positions they had no quams about continuing their class system and racesism in the workplace. They treated women deploribly, and worked people like slaves. Is this legal? Effectivly yes. It is very difficult to prove than a class system is being used when all of the buisness is being done in Hindi. It is dificult to show that racism is happeing for the same reason, and becouse the software development process is not something that judges or juries understand, (many software developers don't understand it properly). Esentialy you have to -proove- guilt. (this is a good thing). But to proove guilt you have to prove that the reason Indeans were advanced and Americans were not was race related and not Performance related. To do this the Judge and Jury would have to understand what good and bad performance were. Many Indean women are very subservient to men. It would require one of these women to simply stop acting in that way and demand better treatment. Since most of them act so subservient and have it beat into them, they would never think of taking action against the kind of treatment they indure...Well, that ~was~ the case. The Oracle lawsuit may lead the way for more. But even then the Oracle deal was much more extream. Being forced to perform felacio to maintain ones job (be able to stay in the US) is one thing. Software Engineers who get all the men on a team coffee and biscuts, and are expected to keep their cubes and offices neet and aranged is something less dificult to do anything about. Especialy when the Woman does it without being asked, comunicated in Hindi, and when asked says that she likes to see here teams work area neet and the team functionin well together. Working people like slaves is actualy legal. The law that set the work week at 40 hours was repealed for technical workers. It's not like the managament doesn't know what is happening, it's just that it's so much cheeper to hier someone who has to keep their job or go back to Indea. And yes there did use to be a law that forced companies to hire US citizens or Perminant Residents first. But this is avoided easily. It has to do which the requirment to proove that you did look for USC's and GCs first. All you have to do is find the H1 you want to hier, make sure their resume has so much stuff on it that no one other person could truthfully compare. Then you put out the add for someone to fill the postion who has all of these skills and knowledge. Now if anyone calls you on it, they would have to proove to a judge and jury that the H1 actualy does not all of the stuff he said he did. Since they probably wont even understand the explination for these skills and knowledge, how are they going to decide whether of not the H1 knows it or not? I was angry when 7 groups at Seible were asked to train the Indeans who would replace them, all the while being promised that they were not going to loose their jobs. And I imagine that they trained them? evil grin I don't know what you mean with that evil grin but yes they did and yes they were layed off directly after doing so. Since many of the people left in positions that were being moved off shore are on H1s and there ability to stay in the
RE: No Americans Need Apply
--- ritu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: I was angry becouse as more and more H1's were at work the culture shifted to be ~their~ culture. It became difficult to get anything done at work in English, and although I do speak a bit of Chinese, it's not enough to get by at work, and I know only a couple of words in Hindi. That's weird..using Hindi at work I mean. Your company did land up with a lot of impolite jerks. It's common practice. I am not talking about just one company here. I was angry when I saw frieds who labored to build start-ups for half of what they could have been makeing elsewhere and who showed the highest degree of loyalty and work ethic booted out of their jobs just before their options vested and replaced by H1's who would work for next to nothing with hardly no options. I was angry when 7 groups at Seible were asked to train the Indeans who would replace them, all the while being promised that they were not going to loose their jobs. Was the management Indian in both the above cases? Partialy. The first case is a sinario that was repeated over and over. The second was both Indean Citizens, H1, and others. Remmber though, when I say US Citizen or Green Card Holder I am often talking about ethnicaly Indeans as well. Although some Indean Americans are able to avoid anti white, hispanic, chinese, black etc. racesim, they still are subject to the classism when applicable. Indean Americans are being hurt by these situations just as much as non-Indean Americans. As is Chinese Americans etc. etc. The sad thing is, that some poeople don't understand this, and there is begining to be quite a bit of raceism here. 3 Indeans have been killed this year in apparent acts of racial violence. And this makes me angry becouse just as the DotCom failed becouse of over zelous expectations coupled with crap for code, now the same will happen to the rest of the technology sector. Unless of course the Indean and Chinese education system steps up (and I would be glad for them to do so). Or the US firms start behaving more responsibly towards their employees and caring more about skills than about the bottom line. So True. You don't think that when that happens they will hier Americans there, let our culture take over their company, and shift all buisness to being spoken in English...do you? They might hire Americans though it is doubtful because, for a long time to come, an average Indian *would* be happier with a lower pay than an average American. I don't understand what you mean by your culture taking over... When Indeans and Chinese get to the point where they have enough numbers in a company, the culture begins to become the norm. The workplace starts to function in that culture and under the rules and norms of that culture. For instance: I was once reprimanded for stacking books on the ground to be able to reach a mouse on a high shelf. It seams that stepping on a book is somehow taboo in the Indean culture. I was told that I was being offensive and recieved a reprimand which excluded me from promotion. FOR STEPPING ON A BOOK! for ciseakes. My friend (ethnicaly Indean) ran into many of the same type of issues. He told his new Indean boss that the architecture had an issue that should be corrected. His boss told him that he expected better behavior from him, and that he should know better than to question his boss. Now this can happen anywhere from a control freak boss, but this one was specific about the code of conduct being and Indean one and that he intended to run his department to those standards and that culture. American and Indean, and Chinses cultures are very differnt. I think that an American in Indea whould be expected to adopt the local customs. But when Indeans are in an american company it is the American expected to adopt their customs. unless of course you believe that fair and equitable treatment at workplace is a uniquely American characteristic. Oh please. Most of the business in a lot of IT firms [any which doesn't hire on a purely linguistic basis] is already done in English as English is the only common language we Indians have. So that shouldn't be a concern really. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just my point. Historically, upper-echelon IT workers have been very liberterian and anti-union. Serves 'em right. Well with all the laws the way they are, and with section 7 being practicaly ignored maybe it isn't about the polotics of individuals. Maybe it's fear. Which ones are loosing their jobs? Are these individuals the same ones you seem to detest? Instead of creating such conflict and pushing people away, why don't you try and help them? If it's time for change, maybe leading the way is a better choice. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Trent wrote: Historically, upper-echelon IT workers have been very liberterian and anti-union. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, of course. One can be both libertarian and pro-union. Unions can be (and have been) a great tool for preserving and promoting the rights of individuals against the domination of ownership and upper management. It's all about strength (or safety) in numbers. Reggie Bautista _ Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! https://broadband.msn.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Jan Coffey wrote: I was once reprimanded for stacking books on the ground to be able to reach a mouse on a high shelf. It seams that stepping on a book is somehow taboo in the Indean culture. I was told that I was being offensive and recieved a reprimand which excluded me from promotion. FOR STEPPING ON A BOOK! for ciseakes. But, in this case, they were right to reprimand you [but not for using this to exclude the promotion]. It's a general norm of politeness that people should abide by the rules that other people find offensive. For example, we usually tell jokes in my workplace that involve sadism, sexism, racism, etc. But we don't tell them in the presence of people who might get offended. [I imagine they exclude me from the To: list when they circulate jokes that begin with Johnny was a mongoloid...] Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
On Sunday, Sep 14, 2003, at 06:46 America/New_York, The Fool wrote: From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. Where are these so-called IT unions. I haven't seen one. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Communications Workers of America's affiliate in Washington State: http://www.washtech.org/wt/ ; International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers: http://www.ifpte17.org/ ; Department for Professional Employees, AFL-CIO http://www.dpeaflcio.org/index.cfm ; Techs Unite, an online community: http://www.techsunite.org/ ; CyberLodge, an open source union project www.cyberlodge.org ; john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: I was once reprimanded for stacking books on the ground to be able to reach a mouse on a high shelf. It seams that stepping on a book is somehow taboo in the Indean culture. I was told that I was being offensive and recieved a reprimand which excluded me from promotion. FOR STEPPING ON A BOOK! for ciseakes. But, in this case, they were right to reprimand you [but not for using this to exclude the promotion]. It's a general norm of politeness that people should abide by the rules that other people find offensive. 2 points here: 1) Let's suppose that your assertian that It is general norm of politenes to abide by the rules that other people find offensive. How is one, living in their own country suppose to learn the cultural ways of all other contries for which they have co-workers, and then remember all the little newaunces. Basicaly, how was I supposed to know that anyone would be offended by me using a book as a step ladder? 2) Your WRONG!!! it is not a general norm at all! If that wore the case then we would quickly degrade to the least common denominator culture. That is akin to cultural genocide. In the USA we have choosen melting-potism over multi-culturalism. The funny thing is, some people get the terms backward. It's easy to do the terms are basicaly backwards becouse some people have tried to skew the meanings specificaly by introducing the term multi-culturalism to describe something that... JUST ISN'T. _Multi-Culturalism_ is what you describe. It is on the ownes of the person taking an action not to offend anyone else of any other culture. _Melting-potism_ is when it is the ownes of the person observing the action not to be offended. The melting-potism is much more tolerant, as it accepts all cultures to live together. It allows for the best parts of each to be adopted while also allowing some continued differences to co-exist without strife. Multi-culturalism is an ill fated attempt to do exactly what melting-pot sounds like, boil everyone down into the same culture and avoide strife becouse everyone is the same. It just so happens that a big component [THE FIRST COMPONENT] of the culture of the USA is Melting-potism. This works out just nicely becouse it shows the superiority of the system. Acording to multi-culturalism the general norm of politeness would be to not offend Americans by insisting that they not be offensive in nuanced ways of other cultures. Therefore under your own rules of general norm... politness they were not being very polite to me. We recognize this when we make laws about offensivness. They specificaly state that harasment is not harasment until the one being harased as stated that the actions they find harrasing have been requested to not be taken in their presence. This very subject is important in American-World relations specificaly becouse it comes up when Americans are abroad. We tend to find other cultures difficult, and they tend to find us a bit brash. Why? becouse our definitin of tolerance is exactly the opposit. We think of Tolerance as what you do when someone else does something that you don't particularly like, you accept it and accept that the other has a differnt set of NORMS and that they didn't mean the same thing as someone from your own culture doing the same thing. Others think of Tolerance as treding lightly around those from other cultures and trying to be well read in others culture and not do anything that they wouldn't like. Of couse it's not so black and white, but there you have it. That very grayish feature is exactly why we in the USA find multi-culturalism undesireable. In that system eventualy you get to the point of not wanting others to destroy your culture, and you start to take steps to prevent it. In France they have laws about the use of non-french words along with other forms of nationalism. In Toranto and Huston you have anti-Chinese raceism. In the Bay Area there is a growing anti-Indean raceism. I believe that Raceism and Nationalism are the natural outcomes of attempting multi-culturalism. There is a reason why the bulk of the US chose the melting-pot option. Most imigrants to this country understand that they will be mixing with people from many differnt cultures and that these cultures will have components they may find offensive. Most understand that their sons and daugters will have many more cultural choices and may even take a mate from outside their ethnic group. Most know what they are getting themselves into. What is happening now scares me. Becouse I can see the violence out on the horizon. I see the sons and daughters of displaced and out of work parents, and the Americanists taking the low road. I see the evils of multi-culturalism, and the deranged counter-deffinition of tolerance rearing it's ugly head and becomeing raceism. It's happening right now right in front of my eyes. =
Re: No Americans Need Apply
From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. Where are these so-called IT unions. I haven't seen one. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: No Americans Need Apply
Jan Coffey wrote: I was angry becouse as more and more H1's were at work the culture shifted to be ~their~ culture. It became difficult to get anything done at work in English, and although I do speak a bit of Chinese, it's not enough to get by at work, and I know only a couple of words in Hindi. That's weird..using Hindi at work I mean. Your company did land up with a lot of impolite jerks. I was angry when I saw frieds who labored to build start-ups for half of what they could have been makeing elsewhere and who showed the highest degree of loyalty and work ethic booted out of their jobs just before their options vested and replaced by H1's who would work for next to nothing with hardly no options. I was angry when 7 groups at Seible were asked to train the Indeans who would replace them, all the while being promised that they were not going to loose their jobs. Was the management Indian in both the above cases? And this makes me angry becouse just as the DotCom failed becouse of over zelous expectations coupled with crap for code, now the same will happen to the rest of the technology sector. Unless of course the Indean and Chinese education system steps up (and I would be glad for them to do so). Or the US firms start behaving more responsibly towards their employees and caring more about skills than about the bottom line. But then that would also mean that all of my profesion would be moved off-shore. Not in the aforementioned scenario. You don't think that when that happens they will hier Americans there, let our culture take over their company, and shift all buisness to being spoken in English...do you? They might hire Americans though it is doubtful because, for a long time to come, an average Indian *would* be happier with a lower pay than an average American. I don't understand what you mean by your culture taking over...unless of course you believe that fair and equitable treatment at workplace is a uniquely American characteristic. Most of the business in a lot of IT firms [any which doesn't hire on a purely linguistic basis] is already done in English as English is the only common language we Indians have. So that shouldn't be a concern really. Ritu --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Trent Shipley wrote: Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. Have computer programmers unionized anywhere? Or IT workers? I'm curious (and interested). Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Julia Thompson wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. I believe he is insinuating that IT professionals, among others, _should_ unionize to protect themselves from this kind of stuff. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Just my point. Historically, upper-echelon IT workers have been very liberterian and anti-union. Serves 'em right. (telecom workers are another matter) On Sunday 2003-09-14 03:46, The Fool wrote: From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. Where are these so-called IT unions. I haven't seen one. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Trent Shipley wrote: Just my point. Historically, upper-echelon IT workers have been very liberterian and anti-union. Serves 'em right. (telecom workers are another matter) Can you elaborate on your statement about telecom workers? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 9:29 PM Subject: Re: No Americans Need Apply Trent Shipley wrote: Just my point. Historically, upper-echelon IT workers have been very liberterian and anti-union. Serves 'em right. (telecom workers are another matter) Can you elaborate on your statement about telecom workers? I eat lunch at the Telecommunication Local (#6222) almost every day. Most Bell employees are members, and they are growing at the present time. xponent IBEW #716 Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: [[BTW: you were so angry when you replied that it showed in many typographical errors...]] You should never make such assumptions. I do not make typographical errors. I make spelling errors becouse I am Dyslexic. This topic has been beat to death but if you want to learn more about dyslexia or why spell checkers do not solve the problem , i would be glad to entertain the conversation. As far as my emotional state goes, yes a few years ago (still in the hight of the DotCom bubble) I was angry. Then it was H1's finding advancement over those with greencards or citizenship not becouse of their skill, abillity, or commitment, but becouse they were nearly or just as good, but for less money. I was angry becouse as more and more H1's were at work the culture shifted to be ~their~ culture. It became difficult to get anything done at work in English, and although I do speak a bit of Chinese, it's not enough to get by at work, and I know only a couple of words in Hindi. BTW my wife is Chinese and my best friend is Indian. (But they don't have class systems, or racesism, and they use a language everyone can understand at work). I was angry when majority of Indeans made it into managment positions they had no quams about continuing their class system and racesism in the workplace. They treated women deploribly, and worked people like slaves. it got so bad at one point at Oracle that one whole team slept under their desks at work for over a month. Then all the GCs and Citazens quit, or moved to other groups. The brain drain on that project finaly made it fail. There are several law suits right now against Oracle for such goings on and even worse. Including one Indean woan ho was forced by her Indean boss to preform sexual favors or loose her job. It is unfortnate that Indiean society has not yet slufed off the class system and still has less reguard for women than for men. And this isn't allways the case with all Indeans, but it IS the case, to deny it is only to allow it to continue. I was angry when I saw frieds who labored to build start-ups for half of what they could have been makeing elsewhere and who showed the highest degree of loyalty and work ethic booted out of their jobs just before their options vested and replaced by H1's who would work for next to nothing with hardly no options. I was angry when 7 groups at Seible were asked to train the Indeans who would replace them, all the while being promised that they were not going to loose their jobs. It would be one thing if the Indean and Chinese corporations could do the same work, but when they have not recieved the same training. In my experience they do not understand object Oriented Design, or much at all about modern software development. They Indean and Chinese schools are simply not up to par. And this makes me angry becouse just as the DotCom failed becouse of over zelous expectations coupled with crap for code, now the same will happen to the rest of the technology sector. Unless of course the Indean and Chinese education system steps up (and I would be glad for them to do so). But then that would also mean that all of my profesion would be moved off-shore. You don't think that when that happens they will hier Americans there, let our culture take over their company, and shift all buisness to being spoken in English...do you? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. On Saturday 2003-09-13 11:47, Jan Coffey wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: [[BTW: you were so angry when you replied that it showed in many typographical errors...]] You should never make such assumptions. I do not make typographical errors. I make spelling errors becouse I am Dyslexic. This topic has been beat to death but if you want to learn more about dyslexia or why spell checkers do not solve the problem , i would be glad to entertain the conversation. As far as my emotional state goes, yes a few years ago (still in the hight of the DotCom bubble) I was angry. Then it was H1's finding advancement over those with greencards or citizenship not becouse of their skill, abillity, or commitment, but becouse they were nearly or just as good, but for less money. I was angry becouse as more and more H1's were at work the culture shifted to be ~their~ culture. It became difficult to get anything done at work in English, and although I do speak a bit of Chinese, it's not enough to get by at work, and I know only a couple of words in Hindi. BTW my wife is Chinese and my best friend is Indian. (But they don't have class systems, or racesism, and they use a language everyone can understand at work). I was angry when majority of Indeans made it into managment positions they had no quams about continuing their class system and racesism in the workplace. They treated women deploribly, and worked people like slaves. it got so bad at one point at Oracle that one whole team slept under their desks at work for over a month. Then all the GCs and Citazens quit, or moved to other groups. The brain drain on that project finaly made it fail. There are several law suits right now against Oracle for such goings on and even worse. Including one Indean woan ho was forced by her Indean boss to preform sexual favors or loose her job. It is unfortnate that Indiean society has not yet slufed off the class system and still has less reguard for women than for men. And this isn't allways the case with all Indeans, but it IS the case, to deny it is only to allow it to continue. I was angry when I saw frieds who labored to build start-ups for half of what they could have been makeing elsewhere and who showed the highest degree of loyalty and work ethic booted out of their jobs just before their options vested and replaced by H1's who would work for next to nothing with hardly no options. I was angry when 7 groups at Seible were asked to train the Indeans who would replace them, all the while being promised that they were not going to loose their jobs. It would be one thing if the Indean and Chinese corporations could do the same work, but when they have not recieved the same training. In my experience they do not understand object Oriented Design, or much at all about modern software development. They Indean and Chinese schools are simply not up to par. And this makes me angry becouse just as the DotCom failed becouse of over zelous expectations coupled with crap for code, now the same will happen to the rest of the technology sector. Unless of course the Indean and Chinese education system steps up (and I would be glad for them to do so). But then that would also mean that all of my profesion would be moved off-shore. You don't think that when that happens they will hier Americans there, let our culture take over their company, and shift all buisness to being spoken in English...do you? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And there are 7 or 8 year old kids in south american countries that are happy to make tennis shoes for a $1 a day, but that doesn't make it right. _ Jan William Coffey Well, it might. Are they better off making those shoes for $1 a day than they would be not making those shoes? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: No Americans Need Apply
The Fool forwarded: Daniel Soong, who lost his programming job to Indian offshore companies, is willing to relocate to India. But Indian officials have told him they don't hire Americans. This is weird. Afaik, there are no laws in place prohibiting foreign nationals from working in Inda for Indian firms. Did he really hear that from a lawyer/Indian govt. official or is it something that was told to him by the 'no H1B visas' group? I can't access the article right now Ritu GCU These Indians Are Crazy --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: No Americans Need Apply
Jan Coffey wrote: Ok fine if that's the way you want it, but that means that any American should have just as much opertunity to work in Indea as Ineans do to work here, shouldn't it? But that *is* the case. Afaik, anyway. This is the first time I have heard of anybody saying that Americans or other foreigners can't work in India. My husband is a foreign national and while he has to fill out more forms to start a new venture/job than I would have to if I were doing the same, there are no prohibitions. Ritu, who wishes she could read the article so that she could find out the details... PS- Could somebody please give me the particulars of the case: Who said this? Which organisation is he connected to? Was he talking about non-Indians in general or just Americans and the IT industry? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Jan Coffey wrote: [[BTW: you were so angry when you replied that it showed in many typographical errors...]] A few years ago software engeneer was begingin to become as prestegious a job as doctor or lawyer. This is the situation here in Brazil - all three professions, when exercised honestly, have ***no*** prestige. How would you feel if you had taken one of the most difficult majors and racked up a lot of student loans to have those who spent their time at school partying artificialy make your degree worthless? I would ask to be fired. Wait a minute! Wrong time tense! I did it, two weeks ago. I can't say about the USA, but here in Brazil the only professions that seem to have any perspective of success are drug dealers and tax collectors. The tax collectors will extort money from the drug dealers, and the drug dealers will sell drugs to the tax collectors. The most recent estimation is that honest workers are sucked in 5 months per year of their income to support state's parasitism. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 03:02:49PM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I would ask to be fired. Wait a minute! Wrong time tense! I did it, two weeks ago. Alberto, you asked to be fired? What do you mean? Someone was willing to do your job for less, so you told your boss to fire you? I would have thought most people in that situation would try to find a skill that they have that IS worth paying you for -- because you can do that better than someone else -- and try to bring that skill into play. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Alberto Monteiro wrote: I can't say about the USA, but here in Brazil the only professions that seem to have any perspective of success are drug dealers and tax collectors. The tax collectors will extort money from the drug dealers, and the drug dealers will sell drugs to the tax collectors. The most recent estimation is that honest workers are sucked in 5 months per year of their income to support state's parasitism. I think someone calculated that, on average, in the US, all wages up to some time in May would have to be paid in taxes. Don't remember the magical date, though. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
At 12:37 PM 9/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: Alberto Monteiro wrote: I can't say about the USA, but here in Brazil the only professions that seem to have any perspective of success are drug dealers and tax collectors. The tax collectors will extort money from the drug dealers, and the drug dealers will sell drugs to the tax collectors. The most recent estimation is that honest workers are sucked in 5 months per year of their income to support state's parasitism. I think someone calculated that, on average, in the US, all wages up to some time in May would have to be paid in taxes. Don't remember the magical date, though. Julia That is of course the Tax Freedom Day. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html Which has been April 19 for the last two years, down from a high of April 30, 2000. And next year it will be even earlier. Kevin T. - VRWC Excuse me while I cabbage patch ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Kevin Tarr wrote: At 12:37 PM 9/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: Alberto Monteiro wrote: I can't say about the USA, but here in Brazil the only professions that seem to have any perspective of success are drug dealers and tax collectors. The tax collectors will extort money from the drug dealers, and the drug dealers will sell drugs to the tax collectors. The most recent estimation is that honest workers are sucked in 5 months per year of their income to support state's parasitism. I think someone calculated that, on average, in the US, all wages up to some time in May would have to be paid in taxes. Don't remember the magical date, though. Julia That is of course the Tax Freedom Day. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html Which has been April 19 for the last two years, down from a high of April 30, 2000. And next year it will be even earlier. Coulda sworn it was around May 6 or so at some point Thanks! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Erik Reuter asked: I would ask to be fired. Wait a minute! Wrong time tense! I did it, two weeks ago. Alberto, you asked to be fired? What do you mean? Someone was willing to do your job for less, so you told your boss to fire you? Making a long story short: 9 month's ago my boss's boss asked for 1 out of 5 [6, if you include the boss] names to be fired. He argued that he couldn't give one name. When I knew about that, I became very upset that he hadn't given _my_ name, so I've been busy in these 9 months convincing him that I _wanted_ to be fired. I would have thought most people in that situation would try to find a skill that they have that IS worth paying you for -- because you can do that better than someone else -- and try to bring that skill into play. Yep, I probably can find a job designing Web Sites to sell illegal drugs online, or to take profit out of Nigerian Scams. Otherwise I don't see how I can get decently paid for piloting spaceships when the only employer here in Brazil is a subsidiary of Worldcom :-/ Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: A few years ago software engeneer was begingin to become as prestegious a job as doctor or lawyer. This is the situation here in Brazil - all three professions, when exercised honestly, have ***no*** prestige. snip grimace At the risk of being a 'whiney git' like the despicable TC, I've found it really depressing to have worked so hard to become a professional, then had my motives questioned, my judgement negated, my (treatment) options narrowed, and my 'orders' altered by some beaurocrat (?sp)... :/ Debbi who enjoyed today's students, and the fresh air, very much __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore, he says. But I was told, 'Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here.' It sounds fair to me. The USA has put a lot of weird laws to prevent dangerous aliens to work in the USA, so it's natural that the rest of the world puts laws to restrict USAns to work outside the USA :-P Alberto Monteiro thinking about getting a job in Moçambique O:-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore, he says. But I was told, 'Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here.' It sounds fair to me. The USA has put a lot of weird laws to prevent dangerous aliens to work in the USA, so it's natural that the rest of the world puts laws to restrict USAns to work outside the USA :-P Alberto Monteiro thinking about getting a job in Moçambique O:-) You have no idea what you are talking about. Indeans have basic free reign to work in the technology sector here in the USA. At the same time American citizens are bing asked to train Indean Nationals in Bangalore and elsewhere who then eventualy take the jobs away from Americans (whatever their ethnenticity). Let's face it it's a bit hard to compete with a people who will work 80 hour weeks for 5k or 10k a year. A few years ago software engeneer was begingin to become as prestegious a job as doctor or lawyer. And for the most part it takes nearly as much education. I knwo of many in the medical profesion who dropped out of CS school becouse it was too hard. What is happening is the equivelent of moving all medical jobs to only those who are on H1 Visas and moving all the courts to Indea. How would you feel if you had taken one of the most difficult majors and racked up a lot of student loans to have those who spent their time at school partying artificialy make your degree worthless? That is what is happening. Ad if that isn't enough think of those poor Indeans, not only the ones here who are literaly forced to work 80 hour weeks for 1/3 what they are worth, but what of those in Bangalore who LIVE in front of a monitor for pennies? If this isn't slave labor then please someone tell me what is! = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
What is your point? That is economics, supply and demand. You can try to do something about it, but in the end it will only make things worse. The real answer is a global market in labor. Nations and patriotism are evil things. On Thursday 2003-09-11 21:59, Jan Coffey wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore, he says. But I was told, 'Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here.' It sounds fair to me. The USA has put a lot of weird laws to prevent dangerous aliens to work in the USA, so it's natural that the rest of the world puts laws to restrict USAns to work outside the USA :-P Alberto Monteiro thinking about getting a job in Moçambique O:-) You have no idea what you are talking about. Indeans have basic free reign to work in the technology sector here in the USA. At the same time American citizens are bing asked to train Indean Nationals in Bangalore and elsewhere who then eventualy take the jobs away from Americans (whatever their ethnenticity). Let's face it it's a bit hard to compete with a people who will work 80 hour weeks for 5k or 10k a year. A few years ago software engeneer was begingin to become as prestegious a job as doctor or lawyer. And for the most part it takes nearly as much education. I knwo of many in the medical profesion who dropped out of CS school becouse it was too hard. What is happening is the equivelent of moving all medical jobs to only those who are on H1 Visas and moving all the courts to Indea. How would you feel if you had taken one of the most difficult majors and racked up a lot of student loans to have those who spent their time at school partying artificialy make your degree worthless? That is what is happening. Ad if that isn't enough think of those poor Indeans, not only the ones here who are literaly forced to work 80 hour weeks for 1/3 what they are worth, but what of those in Bangalore who LIVE in front of a monitor for pennies? If this isn't slave labor then please someone tell me what is! = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ad if that isn't enough think of those poor Indeans, not only the ones here who are literaly forced to work 80 hour weeks for 1/3 what they are worth, but what of those in Bangalore who LIVE in front of a monitor for pennies? If this isn't slave labor then please someone tell me what is! I work pretty closely with a bunch of the ones in India on a daily basis, and let me tell you, they're _thrilled_ to get the chance. 10k a year goes a long way in India - they live very well. The flaws of the H-1B program are a different thing entirely. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is your point? That is economics, supply and demand. You can try to do something about it, but in the end it will only make things worse. The real answer is a global market in labor. Nations and patriotism are evil things. Ok fine if that's the way you want it, but that means that any American should have just as much opertunity to work in Indea as Ineans do to work here, shouldn't it? The point is that it isn't an open free market, it's fixed. On Thursday 2003-09-11 21:59, Jan Coffey wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore, he says. But I was told, 'Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here.' It sounds fair to me. The USA has put a lot of weird laws to prevent dangerous aliens to work in the USA, so it's natural that the rest of the world puts laws to restrict USAns to work outside the USA :-P Alberto Monteiro thinking about getting a job in Moçambique O:-) You have no idea what you are talking about. Indeans have basic free reign to work in the technology sector here in the USA. At the same time American citizens are bing asked to train Indean Nationals in Bangalore and elsewhere who then eventualy take the jobs away from Americans (whatever their ethnenticity). Let's face it it's a bit hard to compete with a people who will work 80 hour weeks for 5k or 10k a year. A few years ago software engeneer was begingin to become as prestegious a job as doctor or lawyer. And for the most part it takes nearly as much education. I knwo of many in the medical profesion who dropped out of CS school becouse it was too hard. What is happening is the equivelent of moving all medical jobs to only those who are on H1 Visas and moving all the courts to Indea. How would you feel if you had taken one of the most difficult majors and racked up a lot of student loans to have those who spent their time at school partying artificialy make your degree worthless? That is what is happening. Ad if that isn't enough think of those poor Indeans, not only the ones here who are literaly forced to work 80 hour weeks for 1/3 what they are worth, but what of those in Bangalore who LIVE in front of a monitor for pennies? If this isn't slave labor then please someone tell me what is! = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
--- Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ad if that isn't enough think of those poor Indeans, not only the ones here who are literaly forced to work 80 hour weeks for 1/3 what they are worth, but what of those in Bangalore who LIVE in front of a monitor for pennies? If this isn't slave labor then please someone tell me what is! I work pretty closely with a bunch of the ones in India on a daily basis, and let me tell you, they're _thrilled_ to get the chance. 10k a year goes a long way in India - they live very well. And there are 7 or 8 year old kids in south american countries that are happy to make tennis shoes for a $1 a day, but that doesn't make it right. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
