Re: So Austin
Julia wrote: The thing is, the rank-and-file who were fighting weren't fighting for slavery, they were fighting for their homeland. State loyalty was higher in the south, and national loyalty lower. So yes, the main impetus of the war was the preservation of slavery, but that's not the reason that was in the minds of many of the people doing the actual fighting. I mean, my great-great grandfather didn't charge up a hill with Pickett at Gettysburg for the sake of slavery, but for the sake of Virginia. But it's not as if anyone was out to come and steal the homeland. I don't pretend to speak for your Great-great grandfather, but I have no doubt that there was a general awareness that slavery was central to the conflict. I don't mean to disparage the gallantry of anyone's ancestors, but the presence and the prominence of that monument and the way it seeks to glorify and justify the cause when the cause is an excuse to continue the institution of slavery is offensive. It has to be particularly galling to African Americans. I saw no monument that celebrates the emancipation, yet it was a watershed event in the history of our country and must be the most important event in African American history. How can a person feel like they are an equal partner in government if the first thing they see when they enter the grounds of the State's most important icon is the glorification of a cause whose purpose was to keep _their_ ancestors enslaved? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So Austin
- Original Message - From: Doug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 1:54 AM Subject: Re: So Austin Robert wrote: You wonder why Texans think of themselves as tough?G Yesterday I was moving, packing boxes into a Uhaul, lifting furniture and all that for over 10 hours. Houston is much more humid than Austin and the temp where I live was 104F. About 2 hours into the moving I pulled a muscle in my back. But the show must go on. I feel WONDERFUL this morning! G I'll bet. I was humping sod all morning Saturday, and digging in the mud in the afternoon. I didn't hurt anything, but I was as stiff as a board this morning. I hope you aren't hurt too badly. The back is feeling a bit better, but now I'm getting terrible leg cramps. I suspect all that sweating has depleted my electrolytes so its orange and banana time.G * You Yankees just don't get it!G I'm know that you are aware that the Civil War was a particularly bloody conflict and many young lives were lost on both sides. Do you think that even on the losing side people would not memorialize those who fought for their cause? You have to remember that slavery was just the tip of the iceberg of reasons why the war was fought. OTOH, if you are under the impression that the reason the North fought in the Civil War was to free those poor slaves, you need to review your history. At that time there were slaves working at The White House (among other Northern locations), so you have to wonder what was up with that. The reason the war was fought initially was to preserve the Union, but the reason the South broke that union was to preserve slavery. Slavery was not the tip, but the root of the problem. Ask the question if there had been no slavery would there have been a Civil War? Every single cause forwarded can be traced back to the peculiar institution. It was really one of those things where it was both ways simultaneously. There is a good parallel with our modern situation. The freeing of the slaves would have had an economic impact on the South that would have devastated in a manner similar to what would happen if all foriegn oil were suddenly embargoed away from the US today. And that is pretty much exactly what happened. If there had been some time to allow the industrial revolution to catch up with the needs of the South, the war would not have been necessary. So to my mind the war was on one hand morality vs economic necessity, and on the other one of political hardball. (The South knew that abolition was inevitable, so the slave state vs free state battle was essentially a battle for control of Congress) As I said, there was slavery in the North prior to the Civil War, but it was not economically necessary as it was in the South. It much like the way Illegal immigrants are hired these days to increase profits by keeping labor costs low. I have no problem at all with a memorial for those that fell in the Civil War. What I have a problem with is the idea that they were fighting for some noble cause like state's rights. Well, I think you have to consider that the majority of those monuments were built long ago when attitudes were quite different. The social inertia that supported the building of such is pretty well spent and is unlikely to ever build momentum again. I'd go so far as to say that with regard to the subject of racism, the South is in better shape than the North or the West. Things have changed a lot here. Lincoln himself believed in the right of states to secede, but he believed that the cause for the secession had to be just and that the preservation of the institution of slavery was not a just cause. xponent Apologies If My Tone Appears UncivilG Maru No apology necessary. I know many people really believe that slavery was an ancillary cause for secession, I know that's what they teach kids in the South; I've had this discussion before. The bottom line is, had slavery been abolished at some earlier juncture, the conflict would not have occurred. I think a later juncture would have preserved the peace, or a much much earlier juncture. Slavery was just too integrated into the Southern economy even at the time of the American Revolution to have been outlawed (easily) and until the advent of machinery that could do the work required, you would still have had great resistance to getting the South to do the moral thing. If OPEC cut us off from oil you would see the same resistance to loss of affluence. It is a matter of greed in some respects and in others it is not. So the situation is and was complex, and when I say it was not *just* slavery I am pointing out that there was social, political, and economic momentum that had to be overcome before justice ruled the day. And the task is still incomplete
Re: So Austin
Doug wrote: Robert wrote: Yesterday I was moving, packing boxes into a Uhaul, lifting furniture and all that for over 10 hours. I'll bet. I was humping sod all morning Saturday, and digging in the mud in the afternoon. Boy, those sound *way* more fun than my day yesterday, spent drinking beer and taking in a Trenton Thunder baseball game. You guys are lucky. :-D Jim Rubbing it in Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So Austin
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007, Doug wrote: Robert wrote: * You Yankees just don't get it!G I'm know that you are aware that the Civil War was a particularly bloody conflict and many young lives were lost on both sides. Do you think that even on the losing side people would not memorialize those who fought for their cause? You have to remember that slavery was just the tip of the iceberg of reasons why the war was fought. OTOH, if you are under the impression that the reason the North fought in the Civil War was to free those poor slaves, you need to review your history. At that time there were slaves working at The White House (among other Northern locations), so you have to wonder what was up with that. The reason the war was fought initially was to preserve the Union, but the reason the South broke that union was to preserve slavery. Slavery was not the tip, but the root of the problem. Ask the question if there had been no slavery would there have been a Civil War? Every single cause forwarded can be traced back to the peculiar institution. I have no problem at all with a memorial for those that fell in the Civil War. What I have a problem with is the idea that they were fighting for some noble cause like state's rights. Lincoln himself believed in the right of states to secede, but he believed that the cause for the secession had to be just and that the preservation of the institution of slavery was not a just cause. The thing is, the rank-and-file who were fighting weren't fighting for slavery, they were fighting for their homeland. State loyalty was higher in the south, and national loyalty lower. So yes, the main impetus of the war was the preservation of slavery, but that's not the reason that was in the minds of many of the people doing the actual fighting. I mean, my great-great grandfather didn't charge up a hill with Pickett at Gettysburg for the sake of slavery, but for the sake of Virginia. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So Austin
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Jim Sharkey wrote: Doug wrote: Robert wrote: Yesterday I was moving, packing boxes into a Uhaul, lifting furniture and all that for over 10 hours. I'll bet. I was humping sod all morning Saturday, and digging in the mud in the afternoon. Boy, those sound *way* more fun than my day yesterday, spent drinking beer and taking in a Trenton Thunder baseball game. You guys are lucky. :-D Jim Rubbing it in Maru If I hadn't decided I really didn't want to spend $30 for the priviledge of going to County Line for barbecue, I probably would have bought beer for the guys that actually got the 1500-lb. cart into and out of the van there. (And if I'd had sufficient cash on me, I would have just handed it to someone reliable to do the beer-buying for me.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
So Austin
Austin is an interesting place. There's more night life there in one weekday night than there is in a month of weekends in San Jose. I took did go to Waterloo Records which has a very good selection, and Book People which I did not spend enough time in because I thought I was going to miss the bats. As it turns out I could have taken my time. The bats didn't show up until well after dark and they came out in dribs and drabs. I then went to a bar called Maggie May's and listened to a solo guitarist for about an hour before heading back to the hotel via a rather seedy part of town (accidentally) It was eleven when I got back and I was soaked in sweat after walking up the hill in 85° heat (and humidity that was probably still over 90%) You really prefer this over N.H. Julia? 8^) On Thursday I quit the conference fairly early and dropped by the Capitol building which was only a few blocks from my hotel. Hmmm. This is the second old South capitol I've visited (Birmingham)and find the degree that the Confederacy is celebrated in both of them fascinating and frankly, rather disturbing. The most prominent and conspicuous monument on the grounds was an unapologetic tribute to the secession and of four other prominent statues on the grounds that I saw, two of them memorialized Confederate heroes (Hood and Ready's Rangers I think). There was also an Alamo memorial and one in tribute to volunteer firemen. No Austin statue. No mention of Sam Houston, Texas independence or the Mexican-American War. No mention of any twentieth century wars (or anything else for that matter) at all. Another interesting tidbit. I looked at the portraits of all the Texas leaders that adorns the walls of the capitol rotunda. This includes presidents of the independent Texas as well as all of its governors. Now maybe I missed him and I'm way off base here, but I could swear that Sam Houston's portrait wasn't there as either President or governor. Why is that significant? Sam Houston opposed the secession. Amazing stuff for a history buff. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So Austin
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007, Doug wrote: It was eleven when I got back and I was soaked in sweat after walking up the hill in 85° heat (and humidity that was probably still over 90%) You really prefer this over N.H. Julia? 8^) Yes. I prefer not to have to dig cars out of snow on a regular basis, and I prefer not to have to deal with a season between Winter and Spring called Mud. And 85F and 90% humidity is just something you learn to move in -- take it slowly, and if you don't have other conditions that make it a problem, it's not that bad. (Humidity is actually down from earlier in the summer -- we had lots and lots of unseasonal rain that kept the humidity, and the mold count, up for awhile, but things are returning to normal for here.) Julia___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So Austin
- Original Message - From: Doug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:09 AM Subject: So Austin * I then went to a bar called Maggie May's and listened to a solo guitarist for about an hour before heading back to the hotel via a rather seedy part of town (accidentally) It was eleven when I got back and I was soaked in sweat after walking up the hill in 85° heat (and humidity that was probably still over 90%) You really prefer this over N.H. Julia? 8^) * You wonder why Texans think of themselves as tough?G Yesterday I was moving, packing boxes into a Uhaul, lifting furniture and all that for over 10 hours. Houston is much more humid than Austin and the temp where I live was 104F. About 2 hours into the moving I pulled a muscle in my back. But the show must go on. I feel WONDERFUL this morning! G ** On Thursday I quit the conference fairly early and dropped by the Capitol building which was only a few blocks from my hotel. Hmmm. This is the second old South capitol I've visited (Birmingham)and find the degree that the Confederacy is celebrated in both of them fascinating and frankly, rather disturbing. * You Yankees just don't get it!G I'm know that you are aware that the Civil War was a particularly bloody conflict and many young lives were lost on both sides. Do you think that even on the losing side people would not memorialize those who fought for their cause? You have to remember that slavery was just the tip of the iceberg of reasons why the war was fought. OTOH, if you are under the impression that the reason the North fought in the Civil War was to free those poor slaves, you need to review your history. At that time there were slaves working at The White House (among other Northern locations), so you have to wonder what was up with that. Funny thing is, I've lived here my entire life and cannot off the top of my head recall seeing a Civil War memorial anywhere in Texas. *** The most prominent and conspicuous monument on the grounds was an unapologetic tribute to the secession and of four other prominent statues on the grounds that I saw, two of them memorialized Confederate heroes (Hood and Ready's Rangers I think). There was also an Alamo memorial and one in tribute to volunteer firemen. No Austin statue. No mention of Sam Houston, Texas independence or the Mexican-American War. No mention of any twentieth century wars (or anything else for that matter) at all. *** Ever notice that Texas is BIG? The heroes of Texas are celebrated mostly regionally. Sam Houston is not a big hero in Austin with lots of statues because his big battles were inHouston and back in those days the capitol was here. (In Harrisburg which is now a ghetto near downtown Houston). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hermann_Park_Texas.jpg is where the statue of Sam Houston is in Houston. Stephen F Austin is memorialized in East Texas where he did most of his work and as far west as Austin (Bexar County). He died and was buried in West Columbia which is a county adjacent to the county Houston is in. ** Another interesting tidbit. I looked at the portraits of all the Texas leaders that adorns the walls of the capitol rotunda. This includes presidents of the independent Texas as well as all of its governors. Now maybe I missed him and I'm way off base here, but I could swear that Sam Houston's portrait wasn't there as either President or governor. Why is that significant? Sam Houston opposed the secession. You appear to be a man with a hammer ATM. I have an ancestor whose portrait is in the Alamo. That portrait was taken down for two years while it was being restored. The portrait is back now, but does that imply that for 2 years he was considered to be overly fond of Mexicans.G [You have I'm sure heard the story of the line drawn in the dirt? My ancestor, 26 year old Tapley Holland was the first to cross if the stories are true.] * Amazing stuff for a history buff. * Sure! But one always must consider that people will remember their war dead and events of signifgance, whether they were on the losing side or on the winning side. Another thing to consider is that these memorials were not erected yesterday, just in time for your visit. So they represent *accumulated* memorialism as opposed to contemporary memorialism. Not that many people here give much thought to the Civil War anymore. (cept on Juneteenth) xponent Apologies If My Tone Appears UncivilG
Re: So Austin
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007, Robert Seeberger wrote: You wonder why Texans think of themselves as tough?G Yesterday I was moving, packing boxes into a Uhaul, lifting furniture and all that for over 10 hours. Houston is much more humid than Austin and the temp where I live was 104F. About 2 hours into the moving I pulled a muscle in my back. But the show must go on. I feel WONDERFUL this morning! G OK, now I feel like a total wuss, having just been loading things into a truck for about 30 minutes, then riding in an air-conditioned vehicle to where we unloaded it, and just being the primary person shifting things around IN the truck for other people to REMOVE from the truck, and not having even had my hands on the @#$% cart loaded with stuff (and the former roadie told us it was about 1500 pounds) that was loaded IN before I started putting other stuff in, and taken OUT after half the stuff was removed and another fifth of the stuff shifted to give it maneuvering room. (And then rearranged about half of what was left after that to make all the boxes of books just one layer deep.) And then a ride back to my car in someone else's air-conditioned vehicle, again, only this time there was an extra person, so those of us in the back seat were a little more squished than we were on the way out. And I think it was only about 101F where I was doing all that. :) Being able to lift is FUN! Teardown of a con is FUN! Drinking the Kool-Aid is FUN! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So Austin
Robert wrote: You wonder why Texans think of themselves as tough?G Yesterday I was moving, packing boxes into a Uhaul, lifting furniture and all that for over 10 hours. Houston is much more humid than Austin and the temp where I live was 104F. About 2 hours into the moving I pulled a muscle in my back. But the show must go on. I feel WONDERFUL this morning! G I'll bet. I was humping sod all morning Saturday, and digging in the mud in the afternoon. I didn't hurt anything, but I was as stiff as a board this morning. I hope you aren't hurt too badly. * You Yankees just don't get it!G I'm know that you are aware that the Civil War was a particularly bloody conflict and many young lives were lost on both sides. Do you think that even on the losing side people would not memorialize those who fought for their cause? You have to remember that slavery was just the tip of the iceberg of reasons why the war was fought. OTOH, if you are under the impression that the reason the North fought in the Civil War was to free those poor slaves, you need to review your history. At that time there were slaves working at The White House (among other Northern locations), so you have to wonder what was up with that. The reason the war was fought initially was to preserve the Union, but the reason the South broke that union was to preserve slavery. Slavery was not the tip, but the root of the problem. Ask the question if there had been no slavery would there have been a Civil War? Every single cause forwarded can be traced back to the peculiar institution. I have no problem at all with a memorial for those that fell in the Civil War. What I have a problem with is the idea that they were fighting for some noble cause like state's rights. Lincoln himself believed in the right of states to secede, but he believed that the cause for the secession had to be just and that the preservation of the institution of slavery was not a just cause. xponent Apologies If My Tone Appears UncivilG Maru No apology necessary. I know many people really believe that slavery was an ancillary cause for secession, I know that's what they teach kids in the South; I've had this discussion before. The bottom line is, had slavery been abolished at some earlier juncture, the conflict would not have occurred. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
