Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[John Sweeney via Callers]

Hi Andrea,

  Absolutely.  All moves should be taught explicitly as not a grip.

 

  Amazing! There is always something new to learn.  I have been 
dancing the cupped elbow hold for over 50 years, and taught it to literally 
thousands of dancers. I have never heard about there being a challenge 
regarding bust contact.  I checked with my wife and she has never encountered 
it either.

 

  Just to clarify: I was not suggesting in any way that either 
forearm hold should be used in modern American contra dancing.  I was just 
clarifying the various version of the move in response to someone’s query about 
what the hold is.

 

  The cupped elbow hold definitely has its place in various parts 
of the wonderful spectrum of traditional/folk/country/contra dancing.

 

  I would only ever suggest it as an option in contra dancing if 
someone had an injury and didn’t want to use the standard contra Allemande 
hold.  It could also be offered in self-defence, instead of the fist-to-fist 
“hold”, when encountering someone in the line that you know is likely to hurt 
you.

 

  The standard contra Allemande hold is undoubtedly here to stay.  
It is by far the best option for moves like Rory O’More and Swing Thru, and it 
is established across the world as the way to do a modern American contra dance 
Allemande.

 

  So, all we can try to do is improve people’s technique.

 

  Quite often a new caller will learn how to call a dance,  get up 
in front of an experienced crowd, walk through the dance calling the moves, 
then call the dance, calling all the right words at the right time, and relying 
on the experienced dancers to help the beginners through the dance.  The dance 
works. The caller will then consider themself to be a contra dance caller, 
without ever having actually taught anything at all.

 

  In the UK the EFDSS changed the name of the person holding the 
microphone from “teacher” to “caller” some time in the 1950s.

 

  I feel that very few modern callers realise that teaching is part 
of the job.

 

  We callers are the only ones who can improve the dancers’ 
technique.  I just wish that all callers realised this and took responsibility 
for it.  It only takes a few seconds during each walk-through to drop a pearl 
of wisdom into the mix.   It doesn’t take long to say one of these:

 

Allemande: It’s not arm-wrestling - if your hand moves towards you, you lose!

 

Allemande: Make a good connection then relax - your muscles are for fighting 
centrifugal force, not your partner.

 

Allemande 1.5: Keep your hands mid-way between you with nice W-shaped arms and 
take bigger steps.

 

Circle Left 3/4; Pass Through: It’s six steps for the circle and two to pass 
through - don’t be late for your new neighbour.

 

Swing: Plan the end of the move so your are both facing the right way on time.


Wrist-Lock Stars: Make sure your thumb is on top with your fingers so that you 
can’t grip.

 

Etc.

 

  I have often though of putting a poster at the door saying, 
“Leave your thumbs at the door!”

 

  Maybe we could all share our favourite teaching phrases and make 
a database of them to encourage all callers to do some teaching.

 

Happy dancing,  

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574  

http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs 
   

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   
   

http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs

 

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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Andrea Nettleton via Callers]

I think thumb pressure, even finger “pressure” has to be avoided and it’s 
avoidance taught thoroughly no matter the hold.  I once had nerve pain for 
weeks after a cupped elbow hold in which that nerve going into the front inside 
of the elbow was deeply squashed by a zealously gripping digit, I think thumb.  
The non universality and also the too close to my bust fingers (both asthe hand 
enters and if any jostling occurs) make me dislike that cupped elbow hold very 
much, totally besides that nerve pinch I had.  The forearm is taught explicitly 
as not a grip and I think it works fine for every turn I’ve attempted.  Rory o 
mores and box circulates, not being turns, would be taught using a W arm, 
fingertip connection or however we want to cast that.  
I too want to hear how the flat palm to palm could even work and how it is 
motivated.
Also, while we have extolled the virtues of forearm and elbow cup, or even the 
old hold, I haven’t heard anyone deny how often it fails, with wrists twisted 
and shoulders and elbows straining, fingers squished, tender parts of hands 
hurt, and/or weight utterly missing or arm wrestle level.  Above all I’m 
waiting for someone to say they have a way to teach it that truly prevents 
these many evils.  I can’t get behind it whole heartedly, however theoretically 
universal, until we have that.  
Andrea

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2019, at 7:46 AM, John Sweeney via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves!
>  
> Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down 
> Palm-to-Palm hand holds.  As are Swing Thrus.  As Callerlab says, “All hands 
> are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to 
> assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather 
> than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to 
> the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.”  (Sadly very 
> few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; 
> they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left 
> instead of Swing Thru!)
>  
> I don’t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold 
> in the moves that I use it for.  But it certainly doesn’t give the ability to 
> spin out of it.  The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to 
> spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners.  If only we could find a 
> way to get people to do it better…
>  
> Happy dancing, 
>John  
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
> 574 
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs   
> 
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent 
> 
> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>  
>  
> From: Folk Dance  
> Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12
> To: John Sweeney 
> Cc: Caller's discussion list 
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety
>  
> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the 
> increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that 
> thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!
>  
> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of 
> disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some 
> awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be 
> clunky with an elbow cup.  A well taught hooked or flat  hand (properly 
> vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.  
>  
> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a 
> clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? 
>  
> Bob
>  
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers 
>  wrote:
> Hmm… I seem to have stirred up a hornet’s nest!  It is great to see 
> discussion on this important topic.
>  
> There are two very different forearm holds.
>  
> *** In front of the elbow ***:
> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:
> “Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each 
> dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is 
> to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will 
> be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally 
> around the other.”
>  
> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).
>  
> I don’t like this one.  Sorry.
>

Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[John Sweeney via Callers]

The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves!

 

Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down 
Palm-to-Palm hand holds.  As are Swing Thrus.  As Callerlab says, “All hands 
are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to 
assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather than 
pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to the 
other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.”  (Sadly very few 
of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; they 
do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left instead of 
Swing Thru!)

 

I don’t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold in 
the moves that I use it for.  But it certainly doesn’t give the ability to spin 
out of it.  The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to spin 
out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners.  If only we could find a way to 
get people to do it better…

 

Happy dancing,  

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574  

http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs 
   

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   
   

http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs

 

 

From: Folk Dance  
Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12
To: John Sweeney 
Cc: Caller's discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

 

I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the 
increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that thumbs 
do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!

 

However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of 
disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some 
awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be 
clunky with an elbow cup.  A well taught hooked or flat  hand (properly 
vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.  

 

I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a 
clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? 

 

Bob

 

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers 
mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > wrote:

Hmm… I seem to have stirred up a hornet’s nest!  It is great to see discussion 
on this important topic.

 

There are two very different forearm holds.

 

*** In front of the elbow ***:

This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:

“Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each 
dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is 
to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will 
be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around 
the other.”

 

I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).

 

I don’t like this one.  Sorry.

 

The connection is not as good as it could be.

Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person’s arm.

It provides the opportunity to grip hard.

I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and 
index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person’s upper arm. 
This can be uncomfortable.

 

The one I do like is:

 

*** Behind the elbow ***:

Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms 
together. Place your curved hand behind your partner’s forearm, just above the 
elbow.  Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.

 

This is a great connection.

There is no need to grip.

You are close together so that you can turn really well.

It is very effective for 1.5 turns.

Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.

It can be achieved instantaneously.

There is little opportunity to mess it up.

 

You can see it being used in this video: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo

There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right 
(two ladies - one in grey).

 

We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK.  It is great for Strip the 
Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don’t pull 
by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).

 

I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.

 

Try them and see what you think.

 

(P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings.  If only the caller 
had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, 
then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)

 

(P.P.S. I love this dance.  Nottingham Swing.  I spent 

Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Folk Dance via Callers]

I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the
increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that
thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!

However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of
disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some
awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would
be clunky with an elbow cup.  A well taught hooked or flat  hand (properly
vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.

I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a
clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option?

Bob

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hmm… I seem to have stirred up a hornet’s nest!  It is great to see
> discussion on this important topic.
>
>
>
> There are two very different forearm holds.
>
>
>
> *** In front of the elbow ***:
>
> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:
>
> “Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint.
> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with
> whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of
> the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is
> moving equally around the other.”
>
>
>
> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).
>
>
>
> I don’t like this one.  Sorry.
>
>
>
> The connection is not as good as it could be.
>
> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person’s
> arm.
>
> It provides the opportunity to grip hard.
>
> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb
> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person’s upper
> arm. This can be uncomfortable.
>
>
>
> The one I do like is:
>
>
>
> *** Behind the elbow ***:
>
> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms
> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner’s forearm, just above
> the elbow.  Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.
>
>
>
> This is a great connection.
>
> There is no need to grip.
>
> You are close together so that you can turn really well.
>
> It is very effective for 1.5 turns.
>
> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.
>
> It can be achieved instantaneously.
>
> There is little opportunity to mess it up.
>
>
>
> You can see it being used in this video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo
>
> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the
> right (two ladies - one in grey).
>
>
>
> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK.  It is great for Strip
> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don’t
> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).
>
>
>
> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.
>
>
>
> Try them and see what you think.
>
>
>
> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings.  If only the
> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands
> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)
>
>
>
> (P.P.S. I love this dance.  Nottingham Swing.  I spent my first 50 years
> in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now
> and I still love it.)
>
>
>
> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)
>
>
>
> Happy dancing,
>
>John
>
>
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
>
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
> Ceilidhs
>
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>
>
> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>
>
> ___
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> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
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>
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[John Sweeney via Callers]

Hmm… I seem to have stirred up a hornet’s nest!  It is great to see discussion 
on this important topic.

 

There are two very different forearm holds.

 

*** In front of the elbow ***:

This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:

“Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each 
dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is 
to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will 
be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around 
the other.”

 

I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).

 

I don’t like this one.  Sorry.

 

The connection is not as good as it could be.

Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person’s arm.

It provides the opportunity to grip hard.

I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and 
index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person’s upper arm. 
This can be uncomfortable.

 

The one I do like is:

 

*** Behind the elbow ***:

Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms 
together. Place your curved hand behind your partner’s forearm, just above the 
elbow.  Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.

 

This is a great connection.

There is no need to grip.

You are close together so that you can turn really well.

It is very effective for 1.5 turns.

Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.

It can be achieved instantaneously.

There is little opportunity to mess it up.

 

You can see it being used in this video: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo

There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right 
(two ladies - one in grey).

 

We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK.  It is great for Strip the 
Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don’t pull 
by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).

 

I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.

 

Try them and see what you think.

 

(P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings.  If only the caller 
had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, 
then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)

 

(P.P.S. I love this dance.  Nottingham Swing.  I spent my first 50 years in 
Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I 
still love it.)

 

(P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)

 

Happy dancing,  

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574  

http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs 
   

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   
   

http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs

 

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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Andrea Nettleton via Callers]

Hi all,
I think that particular video is a poor example of what forearm turns can be.  
I can’t deny the potential for sweat, but, confession, my hands sweat like 
crazy anyway, and I seem to collect plenty of other people’s sweat in swings 
and courtesy turns, as it is. 
I disagree about weight.  The difference is that the connection puts less 
stress on joints and therefore feels lighter, but is, in fact, tighter.  At 
contra dances, doing a traditional allemande, where according to Rich we should 
find it easy to give weight, instead there’s a panoply of styles of mangling 
hands wrists and shoulders, flexing or flopping elbows, which result in all too 
few actually satisfying and well weighted allemandes, regardless of role 
danced.  If it were easy for that allemande to be well executed and well 
weighted, wouldn’t it more generally be so?  Wouldn’t there be fewer defensive 
variants?  
The forearm turn is almost impossible to mess up, with fewer joints involved, 
and even when less weight is applied, is firm and close enough to result in 
timely movement.  Whatever else can be said about it, it does not permit wide 
spacing between bodies, and people do automatically bend their elbows to 
something like the appropriate angle.  There only being one angle to adjust 
makes it easier to fine tune, in my opinion.
Richard Fisher requested, I think, a description.  To be as accurate as 
possible I asked my partner, who, like me, has been a long time contra and 
English dancer, as well as a MWSD dancer.  (I have always danced at gay clubs, 
which, I understand may be zestier than average?, and he is a  MIT Tech squares 
alum, which, being a college club, may also dance with higher energy than the 
club in the video) to simply give me a MWSD forearm as if we were about to, for 
example, swing thru.  He gave me what I expected, and what I consider good 
form: full hand and fingers solidly on the meaty inside of my forearm, which 
let me do the same, forming a flat wristed, full hand through forearm 
connection for both of us.  Instead of a W, you get more like a \__/ look. The 
outsides of the fingers are to a wall, the insides pushing at the forearm, like 
we pressure the hand in a traditional hold. It feels more like the whole arm is 
involved to me, less muscle action needed, only enough to maintain the arm 
position. We varied in how we held our digits, I had mine more open, he kept 
his flat, either way it functions like a mitt.  Both of us used our palms to 
make the primary connection, fingers lighter.  As in any allemande, the elbow 
and shoulder firm up to complete the connection.  It can be very zippy indeed!  
I’m still searching for a clear example in video form.  I’ll let you all know 
if I find one from sources I have access to.

FWIW, I am exhausted from the last few years of the community arguing about 
words and terms.  So I’m leery of us picking yet another thing to get exercised 
over.  If anyone truly gets near perfect results from their teach of a trad 
allemande, I will adopt their words on the spot.  Otherwise I’ll continue to 
see the leas than desirable quality of allemandes experienced as a pitfall of 
the hold itself combined with the usual humans being human, each with 
individual understandings, abilities, etc leading to highly variable execution, 
rather than a consequence of sub par teaching.
Peace everyone.
Andrea

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes, sweaty men’s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women’s arms? Glowing!
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Callers  On Behalf Of Rich 
> Sbardella via Callers
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM
> To: Don Veino 
> Cc: Caller's discussion list 
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety
>  
> Don, 
> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.
> No skin too skin.
> Rich
>  
> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers 
>  wrote:
> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Erik Hoffman via Callers]

Yes, sweaty men’s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women’s arms? Glowing!




From: Callers  On Behalf Of Rich 
Sbardella via Callers
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM
To: Don Veino 
Cc: Caller's discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

Don,
That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.
No skin too skin.
Rich

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers 
mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

Don,
That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.
No skin too skin.
Rich

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Don Veino via Callers]

Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

Here is a link with a square dance using the forearm allemande at 30
seconds in.  As a dancer and caller in both worlds, I prefer the contra
allemande over the forearm allemande.  It is easier ti give weight and I
would suspect it is faster going 1-1/2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Y-NdyZtKM


On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 6:58 PM Richard Fischer via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande?  I don't think I've seen
> it and can't quite picture it.  Or maybe send a link to a video that shows
> it?
>
> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of
> Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their
> hands on one another's wrists."
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Richard Fischer
> Princeton, NJ
>
> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I’m going to add a controversial note.  I also loathe the many poor
> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken
> wing, what have you.  As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande
> for arm turns.  Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I
> was like, wut???  But it’s a position which save everyone’s hands and
> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the
> chicken wing almost impossible.  I started using it for dances with
> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and
> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection.  I was so pleased I
> began using them elsewhere.  People generally go along with it.  I have
> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes.  I know
> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put
> it out there.
>
> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande.  I demonstrate and
> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base
> of the opposite’s thumb, flat wrist.  And I always add that the thumb
> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so
> leave it loose.  Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to
> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post.  I’m sure everyone on this list
> has similar teaches.
> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now.
> I suspect it’s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm
> hold instead.
> My 2c,
> Andrea N
> Arlington VA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and
> the like.
>
> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion
> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly
> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of
> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus
> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called,
> “If Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>
> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us
> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>
> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>
>- Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
>- Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>- Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with
>curved fingers and a straight wrist.
>
>
> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and
> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable.
> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that
> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite
> uncomfortable.
>
> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip,
> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand
> connections.
>
> ~Erik Hoffman,
>Oakland, CA
>
> *From:* Callers  *On Behalf Of *John
> Sweeney via Callers
> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' 
> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>
> Hi Rich,
>   I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight
> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up
> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>
>   While it is a good example of all ages having fun together,
> I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to
> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>
> Happy dancing,
>John
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
> Ceilidhs
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>
> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>
>
> 

Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Richard Fischer via Callers]

Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande?  I don't think I've seen it 
and can't quite picture it.  Or maybe send a link to a video that shows it?

Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of 
Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their hands on 
one another's wrists."

With best wishes,

Richard Fischer
Princeton, NJ

> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> I’m going to add a controversial note.  I also loathe the many poor 
> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken 
> wing, what have you.  As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande 
> for arm turns.  Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I was 
> like, wut???  But it’s a position which save everyone’s hands and wrists, and 
> even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the chicken wing 
> almost impossible.  I started using it for dances with revolving doors, as a 
> dancer, because those turns are so brief and necessarily tight and need a 
> quick strong connection.  I was so pleased I began using them elsewhere.  
> People generally go along with it.  I have been wishing Contra could just 
> switch to this for all allemandes.  I know it would be an uphill struggle to 
> get everyone on board. But I had to put it out there.
> 
> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande.  I demonstrate and 
> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base 
> of the opposite’s thumb, flat wrist.  And I always add that the thumb itself 
> is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it 
> loose.  Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to make a 2 
> person unit that turns on a post.  I’m sure everyone on this list has similar 
> teaches.  
> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now.  I 
> suspect it’s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold 
> instead.
> My 2c,
> Andrea N
> Arlington VA
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers 
> mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> 
> wrote:
> 
>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the 
>> like.
>>  
>> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion 
>> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly 
>> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of 
>> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus 
>> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, “If 
>> Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>>  
>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us 
>> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>>  
>> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>> Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
>> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved 
>> fingers and a straight wrist.
>>  
>> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat 
>> palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable. Not 
>> as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that 
>> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite 
>> uncomfortable.
>>  
>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, 
>> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand 
>> connections.
>>  
>> ~Erik Hoffman,
>>Oakland, CA
>>  
>> From: Callers > > On Behalf Of John Sweeney 
>> via Callers
>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
>> To: 'Caller's discussion list' > >
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>>  
>> Hi Rich,
>>   I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight 
>> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up a 
>> 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>>  
>>   While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I 
>> really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do 
>> better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>>  
>> Happy dancing, 
>>John  
>>
>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 
>>  01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574   
>>   
>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html 
>>  for Live Music Ceilidhs
>>
>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk  for Dancing 
>> in Kent 
>> http://www.modernjive.com 

Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Donna Hunt via Callers]

 Ditto all that.I tell dancers (and demonstrate) that only my ring and pinky 
fingers are wrapped around the base of the other's thumb and the rest of my 
hand is loose.  I think that helps them understand that this isn't a "power" 
move (read "arm wrestle"), but more gentle but with a good connection, flat 
wrist, imagine a pole where our hands are and we're walking around the pole.
Let's keep working on this!
 
Donna Hunt



 
 
-Original Message-
From: Bree Kalb via Callers 
To: Martha Wild 
Cc: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Sat, May 18, 2019 8:37 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

This is a long term project of mine: to teach and encourage what I call “the 
physical therapist approved” way to Allemande. I don’t seem to be making much 
progress so am delighted that others care about it, too.  
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:55 PM Martha Wild via Callers 
 wrote:

Hear, hear! My sentiments exactly! How on earth are you supposed to “give 
weight” (in the proper way, just a tiny bit so you are both part of a unit) and 
get around each other with a flat, palm to palm contact? The only way that 
works is that people bend their wrists so that they have some purchase on the 
other person. Which hurts my now no longer flat wrist! So wrong, painfully 
wrong. Please, please, please, stop teaching a flat hand allemande. It doesn’t 
work. Curved fingers, straight wrist, the thumb is just sort of loose and not 
doing much. Thank you for bringing that up, Erik!Martha


On May 17, 2019, at 3:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers 
 wrote:
John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the 
like. I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a 
discussion with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with 
mildly interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side 
of the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus 
it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, “If 
Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?” I talked about what I do when someone 
grips my hand—and I think all of us should remove that word, “grip” from our 
caller’s vocabulary… But the most important thing I discussed is:   
   - Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
   - Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
   - Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved 
fingers and a straight wrist.
 Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat 
palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable. Not as 
bad as when someone draws the others hand into that 
almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite uncomfortable. 
Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, and, 
no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand 
connections. ~Erik Hoffman,   Oakland, CA From: Callers 
 On Behalf Of John Sweeney via Callers
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
To: 'Caller's discussion list' 
Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance Hi Rich,  I would just call 
it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight variation of the one in the Community 
Dances Manual.  Callers just make up a 32 bar sequence that works for their 
dancers.   While it is a good example of all ages having fun 
together, I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about 
how to do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)     Happy dancing,   
 John   
  John Sweeney, Dancer, England   
j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs     
  http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent 
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs 
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Rich Dempsey via Callers]

Thank you, Andrea, for injecting some controversy. I want to understand
better the motivation of those who push the flat-hand allemande, which is
an awful thing in my view. I'm fully in support of Erik's position on a
safe Allemande. However, when I've attempted to make these points in some
circles, I have been met with instant scorn and denial. If I try again,
I'll begin with "why do you do that?" to see if it opens up the
conversation.

In my observation, there are two points where the W-form Allemande runs
afoul of comfort and safety: 1) one of the partners squeezes tightly and
the resulting pressure on the thumb is painful. There should be no "grip",
only an interlocking of curled hands. And 2) the elbows need to stay down.
This can be an issue when one partner is much taller than the other.

I don't believe I've ever seen a teaching that emphasized a loose grip, and
I think only once or twice have I heard an instruction to keep the elbows
down. Kudos to you, Andrea, for emphasizing "the thumb itself is an
injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it
loose".

Andrea, you have not defended the flat-hand Allemande, so I still don't
understand what those people are thinking. But, you have presented an
interesting alternative in the forearm Allemande.  I've used myself it on
occasion when encountering an insistent flat-hander. It's right up there
with Lisa Greenleaf's suggestion to meet a flat-hander with a fist in the
traditional Allemande position. That lets me protect my wrist and
encourages the flat-hander to curl their fingers.

Rich

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 12:21 PM Andrea Nettleton via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I’m going to add a controversial note.  I also loathe the many poor
> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken
> wing, what have you.  As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande
> for arm turns.  Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I
> was like, wut???  But it’s a position which save everyone’s hands and
> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the
> chicken wing almost impossible.  I started using it for dances with
> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and
> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection.  I was so pleased I
> began using them elsewhere.  People generally go along with it.  I have
> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes.  I know
> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put
> it out there.
>
> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande.  I demonstrate and
> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base
> of the opposite’s thumb, flat wrist.  And I always add that the thumb
> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so
> leave it loose.  Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to
> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post.  I’m sure everyone on this list
> has similar teaches.
> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now.
> I suspect it’s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm
> hold instead.
> My 2c,
> Andrea N
> Arlington VA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and
> the like.
>
>
>
> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion
> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly
> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of
> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus
> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called,
> “If Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>
>
>
> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us
> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>
>
>
> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>
>- Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
>- Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>- Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with
>curved fingers and a straight wrist.
>
>
>
> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and
> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable.
> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that
> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite
> uncomfortable.
>
>
>
> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip,
> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand
> connections.
>
>
>
> ~Erik Hoffman,
>
>Oakland, CA
>
>
>
> *From:* Callers  *On Behalf Of *John
> Sweeney via Callers
> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' 

Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Andrea Nettleton via Callers]

Hi all,
I’m going to add a controversial note.  I also loathe the many poor allemandes 
I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken wing, what have 
you.  As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande for arm turns.  
Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I was like, wut???  But 
it’s a position which save everyone’s hands and wrists, and even shoulders, is 
intrinsically very stable, and makes the chicken wing almost impossible.  I 
started using it for dances with revolving doors, as a dancer, because those 
turns are so brief and necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection.  I 
was so pleased I began using them elsewhere.  People generally go along with 
it.  I have been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes.  
I know it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to 
put it out there.

Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande.  I demonstrate and 
emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base of 
the opposite’s thumb, flat wrist.  And I always add that the thumb itself is an 
injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it loose.  
Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to make a 2 person unit 
that turns on a post.  I’m sure everyone on this list has similar teaches.  
If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now.  I 
suspect it’s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold 
instead.
My 2c,
Andrea N
Arlington VA

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the 
> like.
>  
> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion 
> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly 
> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of 
> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus 
> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, “If 
> Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>  
> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us 
> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>  
> But the most important thing I discussed is:
> Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved fingers 
> and a straight wrist.
>  
> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat 
> palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable. Not as 
> bad as when someone draws the others hand into that 
> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite 
> uncomfortable.
>  
> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, 
> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand 
> connections.
>  
> ~Erik Hoffman,
>Oakland, CA
>  
> From: Callers  On Behalf Of John 
> Sweeney via Callers
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
> To: 'Caller's discussion list' 
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>  
> Hi Rich,
>   I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight 
> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up a 
> 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>  
>   While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I 
> really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do 
> better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>  
> Happy dancing, 
>John  
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
> 574 
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs   
> 
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent 
> 
> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>  
> ___
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> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Bree Kalb via Callers]

This is a long term project of mine: to teach and encourage what I call
“the physical therapist approved” way to Allemande. I don’t seem to be
making much progress so am delighted that others care about it, too.

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:55 PM Martha Wild via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hear, hear! My sentiments exactly! How on earth are you supposed to “give
> weight” (in the proper way, just a tiny bit so you are both part of a unit)
> and get around each other with a flat, palm to palm contact? The only way
> that works is that people bend their wrists so that they have some purchase
> on the other person. Which hurts my now no longer flat wrist! So wrong,
> painfully wrong. Please, please, please, stop teaching a flat hand
> allemande. It doesn’t work. Curved fingers, straight wrist, the thumb is
> just sort of loose and not doing much. Thank you for bringing that up, Erik!
> Martha
>
> On May 17, 2019, at 3:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and
> the like.
>
> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion
> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly
> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of
> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus
> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called,
> “If Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>
> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us
> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>
> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>
>- Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
>- Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>- Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with
>curved fingers and a straight wrist.
>
>
> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and
> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable.
> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that
> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite
> uncomfortable.
>
> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip,
> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand
> connections.
>
> ~Erik Hoffman,
>Oakland, CA
>
> *From:* Callers  *On Behalf Of *John
> Sweeney via Callers
> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' 
> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>
> Hi Rich,
>   I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight
> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up
> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>
>   While it is a good example of all ages having fun together,
> I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to
> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>
> Happy dancing,
>John
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
> Ceilidhs
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>
> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[John Rogers via Callers]

Exactly!

Sent from my iPad

> On May 17, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Martha Wild via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hear, hear! My sentiments exactly! How on earth are you supposed to “give 
> weight” (in the proper way, just a tiny bit so you are both part of a unit) 
> and get around each other with a flat, palm to palm contact? The only way 
> that works is that people bend their wrists so that they have some purchase 
> on the other person. Which hurts my now no longer flat wrist! So wrong, 
> painfully wrong. Please, please, please, stop teaching a flat hand allemande. 
> It doesn’t work. Curved fingers, straight wrist, the thumb is just sort of 
> loose and not doing much. Thank you for bringing that up, Erik!
> Martha
> 
>> On May 17, 2019, at 3:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the 
>> like.
>>  
>> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion 
>> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly 
>> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of 
>> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus 
>> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, “If 
>> Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>>  
>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us 
>> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>>  
>> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>> Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
>> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved 
>> fingers and a straight wrist.
>>  
>> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat 
>> palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable. Not 
>> as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that 
>> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite 
>> uncomfortable.
>>  
>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, 
>> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand 
>> connections.
>>  
>> ~Erik Hoffman,
>>Oakland, CA
>>  
>> From: Callers  On Behalf Of John 
>> Sweeney via Callers
>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
>> To: 'Caller's discussion list' 
>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>>  
>> Hi Rich,
>>   I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight 
>> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up a 
>> 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>>  
>>   While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I 
>> really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do 
>> better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>>  
>> Happy dancing, 
>>John  
>>
>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 
>> 940 574 
>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs  
>>  
>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>>  
>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
>>  
>> ___
>> List Name:  Callers mailing list
>> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> 
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Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Hear, hear! My sentiments exactly! How on earth are you supposed to “give 
weight” (in the proper way, just a tiny bit so you are both part of a unit) and 
get around each other with a flat, palm to palm contact? The only way that 
works is that people bend their wrists so that they have some purchase on the 
other person. Which hurts my now no longer flat wrist! So wrong, painfully 
wrong. Please, please, please, stop teaching a flat hand allemande. It doesn’t 
work. Curved fingers, straight wrist, the thumb is just sort of loose and not 
doing much. Thank you for bringing that up, Erik!
Martha

> On May 17, 2019, at 3:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the 
> like.
>  
> I’ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion 
> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly 
> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of 
> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus 
> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, “If 
> Allemande Left, Where’d Allemande Go?”
>  
> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand—and I think all of us 
> should remove that word, “grip” from our caller’s vocabulary…
>  
> But the most important thing I discussed is:
> Our Wrist is Strongest When It’s Straight
> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved fingers 
> and a straight wrist.
>  
> Lately I’ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat 
> palm method. The almost always makes one person’s wrist uncomfortable. Not as 
> bad as when someone draws the others hand into that 
> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite 
> uncomfortable.
>  
> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, 
> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand 
> connections.
>  
> ~Erik Hoffman,
>Oakland, CA
>  
> From: Callers  > On Behalf Of John Sweeney 
> via Callers
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
> To: 'Caller's discussion list'  >
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>  
> Hi Rich,
>   I would just call it a “Big Set Mixer”.  It is a slight 
> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual.  Callers just make up a 
> 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>  
>   While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I 
> really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do 
> better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>  
> Happy dancing, 
>John  
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 
>  01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
>  
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html 
>  for Live Music Ceilidhs 
>   
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk  for Dancing in 
> Kent 
> http://www.modernjive.com  for Modern Jive DVDs
>  
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> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net 
> 
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ 
> 
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