RE: [cayugabirds-l] ebird reporting question re: motion activated photos

[Wesley M. Hochachka]

Hi everyone,

   As one of the people at the Lab of O who regularly works with data from 
eBird, I’ll give you my take on answering Deb’s question, from the perspective 
of someone who is interested in using the data from eBird for research, both 
for basic science, and applied conservation and management purposes.  However, 
much of what I’ll write also applies to birders wanting to know when and where 
they can find a species of interest to them.  For all of these purposes, it is 
important that we can learn both where a species of bird exists, as well as 
where a species does *not* exist.  In order to understand where a species does 
not exist, eBird uses two types of information.

   First, there is the answer to the question “is this a complete checklist of 
all bird species that you detected and identified?”  If the answer to this 
question is “no, this is not a complete list”, then we have no clue whether any 
particular species not on that checklist was actually present.  However, if the 
question is answered “yes, I am reporting all of the species that I saw and 
identified” then we at least know that the species in question was either: (1) 
really not present, or (2) present but undetected.

   The second type of information collected by eBird is needed in order to help 
distinguish between a species not being present, or that species just evading 
detection even though it was actually at the location.  This second type of 
information is what we generally refer to as “effort information”, things like: 
the length of time spent birding, the distance traveled while birding, the time 
of day, and the number of people in the group that was birding.  The longer 
someone spends looking for birds, the more likely it is that they’ll find and 
identify a species, when that species is actually present.  The more pairs of 
eyes and ears looking and listening for birds, the more likely that any bird 
will be found…at least up to a point: we’re found that as the size of birding 
groups gets too large, the likelihood of finding some species will decline.  
The time of day is important, because some bird species have times of day (or 
night) when they’re easily found, but other times at which it’s essentially 
impossible to detect a species, for example because the species becomes silent 
and inactive.

   Simplifying things (a lot), it’s possible to figure out where a species is 
not found, by giving more weight to checklists on which a species was very 
likely to have been reported, *if* the species had actually been present (i.e. 
checklists from observations collected with sufficient effort and at a time of 
day when a species would likely to have been detected if it was present).  
Also, it’s important to have information from a large number of checklists, 
such that you’re more confident that a species is absent if many observers 
haven’t reported a species.  It’s still impossible to be absolutely certain 
that a species is absent, especially for hard-to-see species like owls and 
rails, so in the end the best anyone can do is to conclude that it is highly 
likely that a species is not present.

   Some people might know that there are methods that have been created for 
analyzing “presence-only” data, but we’ve concluded that they should basically 
never be used with data from eBird.  We’ve experimented with dumbing down eBird 
data --- removing all of the effort information --- and trying out these 
presence-only analysis methods on the resultant data.  We’ve found that these 
presence-only methods do a worse job of describing where a species is and is 
not present.  Even the creator of the most widely used method for analyzing 
presence-only data has told us that it makes no sense to use his analysis 
methods with information from eBird.  These presence-only analysis methods are 
a sort of desperation option for use with information that comes from sources 
like museum specimens, for which there are just a bunch of presence 
“observations” sitting in boxes and drawers.

   So…what has this got to do with camera traps?  The problem is that there’s 
no good way to report effort (would you report just the minute in which a bird 
triggered the camera, the entire hour before the picture was taken, the 
half-hour afterward?).  The idea of a “complete” checklist is also stretched to 
the breaking point, because these cameras don’t identify birds by their 
vocalizations which is very different than many or most birders, so a camera 
trap may have close to zero chance to detecting most of the birds species in an 
area.  Also, is someone likely to report every species photographed, or just 
the species that they think are particularly interesting?
   Admittedly, it would be possible to cobble together some sort of effort 
information, but cameras are so different from human beings that any 
information from camera traps in eBird would just introduce noise into any sort 
of analysis or interpretation that is bas

Re:[nysbirds-l] [cayugabirds-l] Slowest spring migration in a very long time Broome Co., flood gates of migration soon to open...

[Pat Martin]

Almost the exact same mix of warblers up here in Monroe County, minus the Prairie Warblers (except those that have arrived on territory south of Monroe) but with the addition of Cape Mays in increasing numbers over the last couple of days.Pat Martin-Original Message-
From: David Nicosia 
Sent: May 12, 2020 7:51 PM
To: Cayuga birds , NY Birds , BroomeBirds 
Subject: [cayugabirds-l] Slowest spring migration in a very long time Broome Co., flood gates of migration soon to open...

All, This spring season is the slowest evolving migration season that I can remember in a long time in Broome Co. (20 years at least). I basically am seeing the same warbler species that I had May 2-3: Black-throated blues, greens, blackburnian, ovenbird, nashville, northern and louisiana waterthrush, black and white, palm, prairie, yellow-rumped, blue-winged, yellow, chestnut-sided, northern parula and american redstarts.  These species arrived between May 1-5 and are still around and in most cases really good numbers I am happy to say. Many of them are on their breeding grounds now too.  Yesterday, May 11th, I had 102 species of birds in  Broome County with no new neotropical migrants which is crazy! I also had 102 species on May 3rd many of the same species!Still lacking (or very scarce) in Broome Co. are: cape may, bay-breasted, tennessee, hooded, magnolia, canada, wilson's, mourning and of course blackpoll warblers. I still am not seeing very many indigo buntings yet, just a few here and there. I have yet to get a scarlet tanager although there are a few reports here and there in Broome co. Also lacking or very scarce are red-eyed vireos. I have yet to get one with a few reports trickling in sporadically from others. On the other hand, blue-headed vireos are very common this year in Broome Co. Is it because they are not be drowned out by the red-eyed vireo's incessant singing? I have been off since May 2nd on my annual birding vacation and its like the "groundhog day" of birding: same species different day. But it has been a lot of fun with such great species that we have! I have seen and really enjoyed blackburnian, black-throated blues and greens, prairie and others numerous times with great views. I can't complain about that! Today I had a close encounter with a blackburnian warbler. The bird was foraging fairly low in a norway spruce tree at Greenwood Park in Broome co. I was very still and the bird came within about 6 feet of me. It was neat watching the warbler, naked eye, forage and finding small insects to eat on a windy and bitter cold day. It was 38F with winds gusting to 25 mph at least. The bird was also singing occasionally and didn't seem to care about the brutally cold conditions. With the lack of leaves on the trees, I have gotten spectacular views of many of these warbler species which often is not the case as leaves unfold fast in more normal Mays. After today May 12th, conditions in upstate NY are going to change. Warmer weather is on the way and yes we are going to see southerly winds especially Wednesday night and Thursday night and a few days next week. I think migrants are going to arrive fast and furious so expect a very active period from May 14-21 and even beyond for our beloved neotropical migrants. I have noticed that our shorebird species are arriving pretty much on-time and not really affected by the cold May. In any event, the next week to 10 days, I predict is going to be a lot of fun. I hope you can get out and enjoy the finest time of the year!!Best,Dave Nicosia 

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Slowest spring migration in a very long time Broome Co., flood gates of migration soon to open...

[Jonathan Perez]

This is odd as we’ve been seeing floods of indigo and cape mays here in 
Brooklyn. In Greenwood Cemetery two days ago/ it felt like five or more in 
every other tree. This morning had indigo buntings in cadman plaza, which is in 
downtown Brooklyn.

Interesting...

Please excuse my brevity.  Sent from my iPhone

> On May 12, 2020, at 7:52 PM, David Nicosia  wrote:
> 
> 
> All, 
> 
> This spring season is the slowest evolving migration season that I can 
> remember in a long time in Broome Co. (20 years at least). I basically am 
> seeing the same warbler species that I had May 2-3: Black-throated blues, 
> greens, blackburnian, ovenbird, nashville, northern and louisiana 
> waterthrush, black and white, palm, prairie, yellow-rumped, blue-winged, 
> yellow, chestnut-sided, northern parula and american redstarts.  These 
> species arrived between May 1-5 and are still around and in most cases really 
> good numbers I am happy to say. Many of them are on their breeding grounds 
> now too.  Yesterday, May 11th, I had 102 species of birds in  Broome County 
> with no new neotropical migrants which is crazy! I also had 102 species on 
> May 3rd many of the same species!
> 
> Still lacking (or very scarce) in Broome Co. are: cape may, bay-breasted, 
> tennessee, hooded, magnolia, canada, wilson's, mourning and of course 
> blackpoll warblers. I still am not seeing very many indigo buntings yet, just 
> a few here and there. I have yet to get a scarlet tanager although there are 
> a few reports here and there in Broome co. Also lacking or very scarce are 
> red-eyed vireos. I have yet to get one with a few reports trickling in 
> sporadically from others. On the other hand, blue-headed vireos are very 
> common this year in Broome Co. Is it because they are not be drowned out by 
> the red-eyed vireo's incessant singing? 
> 
> I have been off since May 2nd on my annual birding vacation and its like the 
> "groundhog day" of birding: same species different day. But it has been a lot 
> of fun with such great species that we have! I have seen and really enjoyed 
> blackburnian, black-throated blues and greens, prairie and others numerous 
> times with great views. I can't complain about that! Today I had a close 
> encounter with a blackburnian warbler. The bird was foraging fairly low in a 
> norway spruce tree at Greenwood Park in Broome co. I was very still and the 
> bird came within about 6 feet of me. It was neat watching the warbler, naked 
> eye, forage and finding small insects to eat on a windy and bitter cold day. 
> It was 38F with winds gusting to 25 mph at least. The bird was also singing 
> occasionally and didn't seem to care about the brutally cold conditions. With 
> the lack of leaves on the trees, I have gotten spectacular views of many of 
> these warbler species which often is not the case as leaves unfold fast in 
> more normal Mays. 
> 
> After today May 12th, conditions in upstate NY are going to change. Warmer 
> weather is on the way and yes we are going to see southerly winds especially 
> Wednesday night and Thursday night and a few days next week. I think migrants 
> are going to arrive fast and furious so expect a very active period from May 
> 14-21 and even beyond for our beloved neotropical migrants. I have noticed 
> that our shorebird species are arriving pretty much on-time and not really 
> affected by the cold May. In any event, the next week to 10 days, I predict 
> is going to be a lot of fun. I hope you can get out and enjoy the finest time 
> of the year!!
> 
> Best,
> Dave Nicosia 
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[cayugabirds-l] Slowest spring migration in a very long time Broome Co., flood gates of migration soon to open...

[David Nicosia]

All,

This spring season is the slowest evolving migration season that I can
remember in a long time in Broome Co. (20 years at least). I basically am
seeing the same warbler species that I had May 2-3: Black-throated blues,
greens, blackburnian, ovenbird, nashville, northern and louisiana
waterthrush, black and white, palm, prairie, yellow-rumped, blue-winged,
yellow, chestnut-sided, northern parula and american redstarts.  These
species arrived between May 1-5 and are still around and in most cases
really good numbers I am happy to say. Many of them are on their breeding
grounds now too.  Yesterday, May 11th, I had 102 species of birds in
Broome County with no new neotropical migrants which is crazy! I also had
102 species on May 3rd many of the same species!

Still lacking (or very scarce) in Broome Co. are: cape may, bay-breasted,
tennessee, hooded, magnolia, canada, wilson's, mourning and of course
blackpoll warblers. I still am not seeing very many indigo buntings yet,
just a few here and there. I have yet to get a scarlet tanager although
there are a few reports here and there in Broome co. Also lacking or very
scarce are red-eyed vireos. I have yet to get one with a few reports
trickling in sporadically from others. On the other hand, blue-headed
vireos are very common this year in Broome Co. Is it because they are not
be drowned out by the red-eyed vireo's incessant singing?

I have been off since May 2nd on my annual birding vacation and its like
the "groundhog day" of birding: same species different day. But it has been
a lot of fun with such great species that we have! I have seen and really
enjoyed blackburnian, black-throated blues and greens, prairie and others
numerous times with great views. I can't complain about that! Today I had a
close encounter with a blackburnian warbler. The bird was foraging fairly
low in a norway spruce tree at Greenwood Park in Broome co. I was very
still and the bird came within about 6 feet of me. It was neat watching the
warbler, naked eye, forage and finding small insects to eat on a windy and
bitter cold day. It was 38F with winds gusting to 25 mph at least. The bird
was also singing occasionally and didn't seem to care about the brutally
cold conditions. With the lack of leaves on the trees, I have gotten
spectacular views of many of these warbler species which often is not the
case as leaves unfold fast in more normal Mays.

After today May 12th, conditions in upstate NY are going to change. Warmer
weather is on the way and yes we are going to see southerly winds
especially Wednesday night and Thursday night and a few days next week. I
think migrants are going to arrive fast and furious so expect a very active
period from May 14-21 and even beyond for our beloved neotropical migrants.
I have noticed that our shorebird species are arriving pretty much on-time
and not really affected by the cold May. In any event, the next week to 10
days, I predict is going to be a lot of fun. I hope you can get out and
enjoy the finest time of the year!!

Best,
Dave Nicosia

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Hawthorn Orchard - Re: [cayugabirds-l] Mixed Flock

[Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes]

Hi everyone,

Glad to see some reports of warblers starting to trickle in. Cold Northwest 
winds are the damper for migration, for sure.

Here’s a link to the Hawthorn Orchard eBird Hotspot:

https://ebird.org/hotspot/L122418

In the right-most column, you can see a listing for “Recent Visits,” organized 
by date. Click on the date of any one of those recent visits to see that eBird 
checklist and any associated comments that may have been made.

I’ve not posted anything yet on Cayugabirds-L, because it’s been pretty darned 
quiet in there.

According to the current weather forecast, we should see our first substantial 
night migration overnight Wednesday night to Thursday morning, with the bulk 
being after midnight Thursday morning. We can expect a notable influx of birds 
on Thursday with probable continued diurnal overflight of birds taking 
advantage of continued favorable conditions, well into the morning (look 
skyward…).

Pick your favorite birding patch and go birding on Thursday morning, if at all 
possible. Can’t guarantee the Hawthorn Orchard, as the leaves were barely 
coming out just the other day. Lots of apples were in bloom, though. We need a 
handful more days of warmer weather for things to really pick up at that 
hotspot.

Please post sightings into eBird using the eBird App for iOS or Android, or 
later from a computer. If you go to the Hawthorn Orchard, please submit them 
using the hotspot tag for the "Hawthorn Orchard and East Ithaca Rec. Way.”

Good birding this spring everyone, and don’t forget to bring and wear a mask 
when birding at the more populated birding locales.

Sincerely,
Chris T-H


On May 12, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Suan Hsi Yong 
mailto:suan.y...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Had my first warbler flock of the season this morning down in Six-Mile Creek, 
where I don't often go for warblers (because looking up from the bottom of a 
gorge makes warbler necking that much worse, and because I'd never encountered 
too many warbler migrants before). The songs included buzzers (Norther Parula, 
Black-Throated Blue, and Black-Throated Green), wheezers (Black-and-white, 
American Redstarts singing black-and-white), and a lingering Blue-Headed Vireo. 
All while a/the Louisiana Waterthrush continued belting out its loud song from 
the opposite shore.

Yesterday and last friday I checked out the Hawthorn Orchards and basically 
found nada, despite some of the hawthorns flowering. An ovenbird, some wood 
thrushes, common yellowthroat, and eastern towhee were the only birds of note. 
Has anyone else been there and seen anything? I may try again tomorrow.

Suan

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Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
Field Applications Engineer
Center for Conservation Bioacoustics, Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road, Ithaca, New York 14850
W: 607-254-2418   M: 607-351-5740   F: 
607-254-1132
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp


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[cayugabirds-l] Location of clay colored sparrows/Ontario County

[Peter Saracino]

Hi Folks.
Reuben Stolfus asked that I post this for folks interested in possibly
seeing the clay colored sparrows that Kyle Gage posted today (5/12/20).
The location I will describe is on PreEmption Rd. (also called County Rd.
6) heading south of Geneva, NY.
It is suggested one gets permission before attempting to go onto the land
where the sparrows are. The property is owned by a Mr. Wilson Nolt. His
phone is 315-759-5100. He doesn't mind "visitors" but - out of respect - it
is wise to call beforehand to let him know the reason for your visit.
His house number is 5134 PreEmption Rd. It sits on the west side (right
side) of the road as you head south on PreEmption Rd. That being said, you
will need to turn LEFT into a stone/gravel driveway that is just north of
-  and on the opposite side of the road of - his house. Reuben says this
left will be just past an old barn. The road/drive goes back thru an old
apple orchard. So, as you are heading south on PreEmption Rd, you will be
turning LEFT to get onto this road. Once on the road Reuben advised that
you drive along for about 1/4 mile. At about this point you will see a
loading dock at which point you are now to head about 100 feet south. From
THAT point, go about 100 feet east. You will see that the owner has cleared
some of the rows of trees and the birds were heard and seen mostly on the
NORTH side of the driveway - among the bushy cleared area between the
cleared rows.
Hope these directions are not too confusing and good luck.
Pete Saracino

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] ebird reporting question re: motion activated photos

[Tom Schulenberg]

Maybe someone can clarify or refer me to the right place. I have lived and
> birded in the Cayugabirds region for 30+ years and use ebird
>
>
questions regarding eBird should be directed to

eb...@cornell.edu

good birding,

tss

-- 
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Research Associate
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca  NY  14850
http://neotropical.birds.cornell.edu/portal/home
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/clementschecklist

voice:  607.254.1113
email:  ts...@cornell.edu, tschulenb...@gmail.com

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] ebird reporting question re: motion activated photos

[Therese O'Connor]

Interesting. Three weeks ago I received a "question" from ebird asking me
if I had "additional information" about a siting I had in Seattle in *2014!*
I wonder what took them so long to question my birdstrange.
Therese O'Connor

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 5:35 PM Deborah G Lauper 
wrote:

> Maybe someone can clarify or refer me to the right place. I have lived and
> birded in the Cayugabirds region for 30+ years and use ebird. I also spend
> winters in Arizona, specifically Pima County (near Tucson, Madera Canyon
> etc). Owls have been visiting our bird baths nightly. Great Horned and
> Western Screech, got great pictures on motion activated cams. I recently
> learned that ebird does not want motion activated pictures and also, don't
> bother reporting it unless you saw it directly. My question is why? The
> ebird expert/monitor from this county (great guy by the way) advised me of
> this and said he doesn’t agree with it and doesn’t know the rationale
> either. Anyway, it’s amazing what we get on our motion cameras, mammals and
> birds, and it would be great to be able to include the birds on ebird. I
> want to be as accurate as possible and follow the rules so I deleted my owl
> pictures and sightings but I’m disappointed and hope I can get an
> explanation.
> Deb Lauper (Corning, NY and Sahuarita, AZ)
>
>
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[cayugabirds-l] Mixed Flock

[Suan Hsi Yong]

Had my first warbler flock of the season this morning down in Six-Mile
Creek, where I don't often go for warblers (because looking up from the
bottom of a gorge makes warbler necking that much worse, and because I'd
never encountered too many warbler migrants before). The songs included
buzzers (Norther Parula, Black-Throated Blue, and Black-Throated Green),
wheezers (Black-and-white, American Redstarts singing black-and-white), and
a lingering Blue-Headed Vireo. All while a/the Louisiana Waterthrush
continued belting out its loud song from the opposite shore.

Yesterday and last friday I checked out the Hawthorn Orchards and basically
found nada, despite some of the hawthorns flowering. An ovenbird, some wood
thrushes, common yellowthroat, and eastern towhee were the only birds of
note. Has anyone else been there and seen anything? I may try again
tomorrow.

Suan

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[cayugabirds-l] Woodcock chicks

[Geo Kloppel]

This morning in an alder swamp at the edge of Michigan Hollow Marsh I nearly 
stepped on a brood of Woodcock chicks. Mom flew up just in front of me, 
attempting distraction, but I looked down at my feet instead, and there they 
were. Photo on my eBird checklist, if you’re in need of a dose of cute:

https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S68919584

-Geo
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[cayugabirds-l] Indigo Bunting, Scarlet Tanager

[Donna Lee Scott]

My neighbor just to south reported a male Indigo Bunting was eating seed at her 
deck rail 8 AM this morning.
My other neighbor just to the north went out in her driveway this morning and 
saw a Scarlet Tanager in her lilac bush!

Unfortunately, I saw neither of these birds, but on my walk around Lansing 
Station this afternoon I saw Yellow and Yellow-rumped warblers, B. orioles, and 
a Brown Thrasher in my own yard when I returned. Plus many of the usual 
suspects around here.
Many Baltimore Orioles and 2-3 Orchard Orioles continue in my yard!  I have to 
go shop for fruit and jelly for them, they go thru these so fast.

Donna L. Scott
535 Lansing Station Road
Lansing, NY


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[cayugabirds-l] ebird reporting question re: motion activated photos

[Deborah G Lauper]

Maybe someone can clarify or refer me to the right place. I have lived and 
birded in the Cayugabirds region for 30+ years and use ebird. I also spend 
winters in Arizona, specifically Pima County (near Tucson, Madera Canyon etc). 
Owls have been visiting our bird baths nightly. Great Horned and Western 
Screech, got great pictures on motion activated cams. I recently learned that 
ebird does not want motion activated pictures and also, don't bother reporting 
it unless you saw it directly. My question is why? The ebird expert/monitor 
from this county (great guy by the way) advised me of this and said he doesn’t 
agree with it and doesn’t know the rationale either. Anyway, it’s amazing what 
we get on our motion cameras, mammals and birds, and it would be great to be 
able to include the birds on ebird. I want to be as accurate as possible and 
follow the rules so I deleted my owl pictures and sightings but I’m 
disappointed and hope I can get an explanation.
Deb Lauper (Corning, NY and Sahuarita, AZ)
>> 
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] molting birds question

[Peter Saracino]

Thanks for the info. Must be so m.j e as re molting non-essential feathers?

On Tue, May 12, 2020, 2:37 PM Linda Clark Benedict 
wrote:

> We had a bald rose-breasted grosbeak at our feeder.
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2020, 3:35 PM Peter Saracino 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks.
>> Recently I have seen one "bald" redwing on a tray feeder and another that
>> was nearly bald. Now I see what appears to be an adult Oriole "losing" some
>> of the black on its head. Is it normal for these birds to molt some of
>> their non-flight feathers at this time of year?
>> Thanks for the help.
>> Pete Sar
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] molting birds question

[Linda Clark Benedict]

We had a bald rose-breasted grosbeak at our feeder.

On Mon, May 11, 2020, 3:35 PM Peter Saracino 
wrote:

> Hi folks.
> Recently I have seen one "bald" redwing on a tray feeder and another that
> was nearly bald. Now I see what appears to be an adult Oriole "losing" some
> of the black on its head. Is it normal for these birds to molt some of
> their non-flight feathers at this time of year?
> Thanks for the help.
> Pete Sar
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Mourning Doves

[Donna Lee Scott]

“My” orioles like my h-bird nectar feeder too (as well as all the oranges and 
dishes of grape jelly)!

One of them even flicked off one of the bee guards to make the sugar water 
easier to drink.
One also discovered he can put 1 foot on a little tiny hummingbird perch for 
better balance!

Donna Scott
Lansing
Sent from my iPhone

On May 12, 2020, at 11:31 AM, Judy Cuyle 
mailto:gnatca...@yahoo.com>> wrote:

We were surprised at the comments about Mourning Doves fighting. We have lots 
of Mourning Doves and have never seen this behavior. Maybe because we have so 
many feeders? Year round we have 13 sunflower seed feeders and three suet 
feeders (each holding three cakes). Now we also have a hummingbird feeder (no 
hummers yet tho), a Baltimore Oriole feeder, and a grape jelly feeder. Some 
years we have four hummingbird feeders. The Downy and Hairy Woodpeckers like 
the hummingbird feeder too. Actually, the Oriole prefers it to the Oriole 
feeder.

Bill & Judy Cuyle





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[cayugabirds-l] Mourning Doves

[Judy Cuyle]

We were surprised at the comments about Mourning Doves fighting. We have lots 
of Mourning Doves and have never seen this behavior. Maybe because we have so 
many feeders? Year round we have 13 sunflower seed feeders and three suet 
feeders (each holding three cakes). Now we also have a hummingbird feeder (no 
hummers yet tho), a Baltimore Oriole feeder, and a grape jelly feeder. Some 
years we have four hummingbird feeders. The Downy and Hairy Woodpeckers like 
the hummingbird feeder too. Actually, the Oriole prefers it to the Oriole 
feeder.
Bill & Judy Cuyle






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