date:20170116

 From: allison 
> 
> The 32016 was not clocked very fast nor did it have any pipelines to
> speak of.

I recall the National dog-and-pony show guys showing up and having a
good long talk with them.  The 320xx sounded like a very advanced chip
when compared with the usual 8086 or Z8000 stuff.

I recall that the design work for National was being done by an outside
outfit--that it wasn't a home-grown product.

At any rate, the discussion came down to "When can we get sample silicon?"

There was the rub.  "Real Soon Now".  I think we were quoted something
like 18 months for early steppings.   Didn't happen, not in 18 months,
nor in 24.  By the time silicon was being offered, we had long moved on.

I do have a 32CG06 in my collection.  It came from a Panasonic laser
printer.

--Chuck

Re: Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday

2017-01-16 Thread j...@cimmeri.com


On 1/16/2017 8:52 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
According to IMDB, the Mac Plus that Scotty addressed by speaking 
into the mouse in "Star Trek : The Voyage Home",
"The computer that Scotty uses to show transparent aluminum was 
originally going to be an Amiga, but Commodore would only provide a 
computer if they bought it. Apple Computers was willing to loan them 
the Mac."



How much does "product placement" cost these days??


And with a $21 million budget, I would think they could've afforded the 
Amiga.


- J.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

2017-01-16 Thread Ken Seefried

From: Al Kossow 
>
> That reminds me I need to dig out the Genix sources I have.
>

I'd really like to see that, if it ever came to light.

KJ

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

2017-01-16 Thread Ken Seefried

From: allison 
>
>The 32016 was not clocked very fast nor did it have any pipelines to
>speak of.

True.  And lots of interesting bugs; some show-stoppers in early steppings.

>If the 32016 had a second generation, some tweaks and faster process it
>might have had hope but like 68k and Z8000 it was good idea but late.

It had 2 additional generations of general purpose procs (32332 &
32532) and a number of embedded iterations (ns32gc, ns32fx).  But,
yeah, too late relative to to i8086.

KJ

Re: Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday

According to IMDB, the Mac Plus that Scotty addressed by speaking into the 
mouse in "Star Trek : The Voyage Home",
"The computer that Scotty uses to show transparent aluminum was originally 
going to be an Amiga, but Commodore would only provide a computer if they 
bought it. Apple Computers was willing to loan them the Mac."



How much does "product placement" cost these days??

Re: Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday


On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Tapley, Mark wrote:
Back when they were new, a friend of mine brought his out of his car, 
set up, and worked for about 1/2 hour before realizing he’d left the 
keyboard in the car.  Don’t know how fun an experience you’d have, 
particularly if you are not as absent-minded as he, but it might be fun.


According to IMDB, the Mac Plus that Scotty addressed by speaking into the 
mouse in "Star Trek : The Voyage Home",
"The computer that Scotty uses in the Plexicorp scene appears to be a 
Macintosh Plus, but its internals were completely changed for filming. Its 
screen was replaced with one from an IBM PC to make this easier to 
synchronize its video refresh rate with the film camera's frame rate, and 
the "transparent aluminum" animation was created on an IBM PC by computer 
graphics company Video Image."


No wonder Plexicorp has been unable to begin marketing of transparent 
aluminum.

Re: 8085 IO ports

2017-01-16 Thread Adrian Graham

On 15/01/2017 16:59, "allison"  wrote:

>> I've thought of that which is why I'm chasing down details on the Viewdata
>> chip and the D8741A which I assume is being used as a keyboard controller.
>> There are also 3 modules on the phone side which I can't find anything
>> about, marked "NKT NMC1515", NMC1516 and NMC1517.
> 8741A is likely keyboard controller.  FYI its the eprom version of 8041A
> (the a is important). That part is easy to dump the EPROM and analyse as its
only 1K.

Yep, done that fortunately. My MQP programmer can read it and also the PAL
that does the ROM selection so I know they're both OK.
>  
> You can use a 8048 disasembler on that, nearly the same part save for
> the slave IO structure and a few instructions.

Glen Slick has already done that for me, much better results than what I
could get out of the d48 disassembler.

> So its possible to use those pins (4 of them) as inputs without interrupts
> on all or none as you can read their state.  RST7.4 is also special as
> its edge
> triggered (and transition activates it and it sets a latch) so unlike
> the other
> the state of the pin can be a pulse rather than a LEVEL.

OK, that might explain why there's only two entry points for those interrupt
pins in the code.

> So it seems there is a keyboard interrupt and video (scan line) interrupt
> plus the RTC (time keeping and ?).  You also have phone line events in
> there.

Tonight I discovered the D8741A is a controller for the little microcassette
unit that's seriously not well with rust and damaged/rotted/exploded caps :/

> FYI the software structure is familiar and likely straight out of the
> book for the 8085.
> You are preserving cpu status (AC-PSW), BC, DE, HL pairs, then working
> on the interrupt event.

OK.

>> Ok, it never gets interrupted then.
> You would also see /INTA (interrupt acknowledge) trigger.

I don't remember seeing that when I was monitoring all the control lines and
I've just noticed on my drawings I've left out INTA, must rectify that.

> Do find a copy (its definitely on line) of the 8085 users manual,
> september 1978

I'll have a look for that at work tomorrow, there's every chance we've got
it in the library.

> It really sounds like the unit suffered a high voltage transient
> (lighting, ESD, power supply
> over voltage).

Yeah, the previous owner did power it up and got smoke but I thought that
was just the RIFA mains filter popping. Currently I'm up to 6 replaced chips
that all had dead inputs and the startup opamp (ICL7611). Fortunately the
non-replaceable ones are OK.

On the tape drive controller board are a pair of very messy 25V caps that I
thought had rotted because of damp - the tape transport itself is probably
beyond saving through rust - but could they have exploded I wonder.

> of TTL across 12 boards to bring it back to life.  The only MOS device
> (had a hole in it)
> was a 8251A USART to the H19 terminal (also toasted).  Z80 was still
> good and still
> in that system working to this day (along with a 8085A subprocessor).

Strewth, that's some troubleshooting effort!

> Sockets on the other hand have caused me no small amount of bedevilment.
> If its not machined pin and old its likely trouble.

I do wonder about the sockets though they're all turned pin. The RAM refresh
and first ROM socket were badly verdigris'd with the battery leaking all
over that part of the board but they test OK with a DMM.

>>> Hummm...  4116 dram, that means you have external refresh logic or they are
>>> going cheap and doing refersh on a interrupt (or maybe) timed loop.
>> There's an MC2342A doing the refresh and that's looking OK now that I've
>> swapped it. The original chip had no working outputs.
> Ok, blown  that make what I said earlier of a ESD incident likely.
> Check the DRAM too.

They all LOOK ok in that I get active traces at DIN/DOUT and none of them
get hot so they're hopefully OK. I know from working on a few PET 80xx that
a single bad 4116 can stop the machine booting but I don't want to start
desoldering those unless it's obvious one or more have died.

>> If you guys weren't around to put up with my amateurish questions I'd have
>> never started work on it and it would've remained just another unloved bit
>> of kit on a table in a museum like the other 5 that are known to exist.
> We try.

It's all excellent help!

> I enjoy working with 8048(family), 8085 and z80 have built with them for
> decades
> and do both HW and SW.Its fun to apply modern software techniques to
> old hardware as often they do it well even if not lighting fast.

I still find it difficult to get my brain to acknowledge that despite their
speed I really am looking at things happening on individual clock ticks,
I'll get there :)

Cheers

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

2017-01-16 Thread Jay West

Yes. Please do!

Pontus wrote...
There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths
department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.

/P

Re: Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday

2017-01-16 Thread Tapley, Mark

On Jan 16, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Chris Hanson  wrote:

> On Jan 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Jules Richardson  
> wrote:
>> 
>> On 01/14/2017 10:12 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:
>>> Maybe I’ll take some time out on Monday to finally fit mine with the
>>> replacement analog board that I’ve acquired, so I can enjoy that
>>> beautiful bluish-white phosphor glow once again.
>> 
>> I have a couple - but only one mouse, and no keyboards, which is a bit of a 
>> problem :-)
...
Back when they were new, a friend of mine brought his out of his car, set up, 
and worked for about 1/2 hour before realizing he’d left the keyboard in the 
car.  Don’t know how fun an experience you’d have, particularly if you are not 
as absent-minded as he, but it might be fun.
- Mark

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item

2017-01-16 Thread Jay West


Mark wrote...

Was it possible to configure an Access system with a mix of a 21MX and 2100?

(I'm not challenging the assertion; it just never occurred to me...)

According to the documentation - specifically "no". Both processors must be
the same type.
However, after digging in to it year ago, I see no reason that it shouldn't
work and others on the list said they were fairly certain that it did work.


--
Actually, the thing I'm calling a 21MX is listed in the components list as a
"1000".  Perhaps this implies that it (or they) was running one of the RTE
operating systems.

Most of the designations were pure marketingspeak, and on top of that who
knows what happened in shops out in the field. Operators often did things
that were perfectly ok but not sold that way.

In the end HP1000 meant a 21MX M, E, K, or F - which was 2105, 2108,
2112, 2109, 2113, 2111, 2117. I think some later AXXX systems were also
considered HP1000's, but that's out of my area (too new). 

Hard to tell just by looking if that machine is an HP2000 system. Some
indicators to look for:
Dual Processors
12920/21 (or the older mux set) boards and the processor interconnect cables
(+4x12566)
By studying what boards are in which slots in both processors
IOP firmware on a FAB (can't be in a FEM I don't believe, due to hard coded
I/O addresses)
Must have mag tape, cannot run without it.
Any HP-IB devices is a certain clue that it's NOT an access system (nor any
Hp2000 system).

But the above is just best guess (other than the IOP microcode)... because
there are plenty of examples of those items in non-Access HP2000 systems and
even NON-hp2000 systems. 2000E used only one cpu (and I think another prior
system as well) for example. Dual cpus was written up by HP as "heres how
you can slave an additional cpu for special applications", etc.

So the best way is to take a snapshot of both rear card cages showing the
extractor handles and I can then most likely determine with a fair (but not
conclusive) amount of certainty.

J

Re: 8085 IO ports

2017-01-16 Thread Adrian Graham

On 15/01/2017 14:38, "Tony Duell"  wrote:

> But do you know it''s not doing I/O. OK IO/M is never going into the
> right state for
> I/O, but what that _really_ means is that the 8085 is never executing
> any IN or OUT
> type instructions. But of course memory mapped I/O is possible
> (storing or loading
> at particular locations that happen to be I/O devices) on any processor that
> can
> access memory (including the 8085). I've seen small 8085 and Z80 control
> systems
> with only memory-mapped I/O.

I pondered that too but the reference says IN and OUT are used for
non-memory mapped I/O and there's a few of those instructions in the code.
Whether they're being executed at this point in time is moot.

>> Apologies for all the daft sounding questions (this goes to Dwight, Tony and
>> Chuck too) but historically I'm a high level programmer so getting right
> 
> I don't think I've seen any daft questions yet!

Phew :)

>> I've thought of that which is why I'm chasing down details on the Viewdata
>> chip and the D8741A which I assume is being used as a keyboard controller.
> 
> Why do you assume it's a keyboard controller? It might be, but it could
> be other things; THe 8741 is the EPROM version of the 8041. It's a
> 8048-like microcontroller with a couple of latches on-chip so it can be
> used as a peripheral from another processor (here the 8085). You need
> to trace the I/O lines from the 8741 to see if they go to the keyboard.

I've now traced all of them and its associated pair of supporting chips
(LS04 and an MM74C906) and it's a tape controller, it's only using port 2
and all the lines go to the tape drive header.

>> There are also 3 modules on the phone side which I can't find anything
>> about, marked "NKT NMC1515", NMC1516 and NMC1517.
> 
> Are these potted blocks, or can you see the components on them?

They're the big green rectangles visible in this picture -
http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCexecutelboard.jpg
The D8741A is above them and the SAA5070 LUCY chip is to the right.

> Could this be part of the serial data transfer? There will be incoming data
> at 1200 baud. There should be some kind of demodulator (maybe one of the
> modules) and a serial-to-parallel converter You've not mentioned a serial chip
> (is there one), if not then I would expect it to be simulated in software.
> Maybe on the 8085, maybe on the 8741.

LUCY does that, it's also where the keyboard connector's lines split off so
the whole data bus goes up to the keyboard module too. I now need to check
that for power and dead chips since it's obviously not the passive device I
thought it was previously. I've tried running the machine with the keyboard
connected but there's no indicators on there to show any signs of life.

> 
>> RST6.5 is from the Teletext chip, wired to the video status outputs.
>> RST5.5 is from the D8741A, again from a pair of status outputs (IBF/OBF)
> 
> The last basically says that either the 8741 has data to send to the 8085
> (OBF = Output Buffer Full) or is ready for data from the 8085 (IBF = Input
> Buffer Full)

Yep, read/write to the tape device which I can't connect up until I've
replaced the rotted caps.

Now, having just typed that it's making me think of what Allison said about
lightning or ESD, I know the previous owner of this machine powered it up
before putting it on eb*y and 'the smoke came out' which I thought initially
was just the RIFA mains filter popping (it had), but look at this picture:

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelBlownCaps.jpg

These are on the tape drive controller board and I thought they'd rotted
through exposure to moisture for several years but could they have exploded
instead? The damage looks old so I don't think that power up is responsible.

Cheers!

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread Cameron Kaiser

> > ;...through the lens focusing at any distance. No adjustment for paralax. No
> > coupled rangefinder. Just the simple axiom ...
> > "What you see, you get" '
> >
> > I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)
>
> Maybe you can try Google N-grams?

Now, now, no one needs to go digging up old L. Ron.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. --

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

2017-01-16 Thread Cameron Kaiser

> >>> If I can mention items that I have owned, the list becomes slightly
> >>> longer: a PC532, Symbolics MacIvory II and a TI microExplorer.
> >> 
> >> What happened to the MacIvory II and microExplorer?
> > 
> > If we're considering MacIvories in this category, there's one sitting
> > next to me (MacIvory III in a IIci host, 8MW RAM, Genera 8.3).
> 
> Why wouldn't we? They're actually really rare, and quite nice.
> Some of us have been looking for a MacIvory or a microExplorer for a very
> long time. It requires quite a bit of luck to acquire one.

And a lot of money. Mine was a cool $4kmumble from DKS directly, but when it
arrived the board wasn't recapped, the case was cracked, the machine was
troublesome and the hard disk was flaky. I ended up recapping it, replacing
the hard disk and case and a few other parts, and rebuilding Genera. Total
cost, not counting the time I sunk into the damn thing, was around $6000.

I guess it's fun, but the 164LX under the bench running OpenGenera on Tru64
is leagues faster.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Computer geeks don't byte; we just nybble. -

RE: Need serial cabe for pdp 11/34 M7856

2017-01-16 Thread malcolm

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> > i need a cable that is wired for serial.
>
> The EIA serial cables that plug into the Berg connectors are pretty 
> much unobtainium.

I have a page that has some part numbers for suitable connectors.  It might be 
helpful here.

http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=1628

Malcolm

Re: Soldapullt original vs III

2017-01-16 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/16/2017 02:46 PM, Corey Cohen wrote:
can't easily get in to change caps but it's a bigger 
hassle to remove the board (i.e. The lamp amplifier board 
on a persci drive)
PERSCI??  Iee!  Yes, I had one of those.  Yes, it 
sort of worked, maybe it was the crappy floppies I bought, 
but I did buy them new from various media suppliers, like Inmac.
I found it to be relatively flaky, but maybe it was actually 
a crummy floppy controller that would write stuff anywhere.


I eventually got a 10 MB Memorex winchester drive and SASI 
controller in about 1977 or so, and that was a godsend!  It 
was absolutely reliable, I never had corrupted files again.
(Oh, it was faster, too, of course.)  I had this on an S-100 
system.


Jon

Re: Soldapullt original vs III

2017-01-16 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/16/2017 01:26 PM, Brian Walenz wrote:


While I wholeheartedly agree with the tool advice and the trick, I lifted a
bunch of traces on a PDP8a CPU board doing this.
Earlier machines often had single-sided boards with no 
plated through holes.  These are REALLY fragile when doing 
rework.  It seems like the 8A should have had double-sided 
boards with plated through holes, but in the early days, the 
tricks we now know to make the boards durable were not 
invented yet.


Today, it is common practice to use textured copper foils, 
they grip the epoxy on the board substrate better.  They 
remove epoxy smear left by the drills with plasma etching, 
exposing the glass fibers. This gives the through hole 
plating better grip.  The epoxies have improved to handle 
heat better.  And, there's more, but those are some of the 
big ones.

I've also started reflowing and adding fresh solder before attempting to
desolder.  Could be better heat transfer, or just easier to suck up a
larger blob.


Especially helpful with lead-free boards, but it does help 
heat transfer.  You need the heat to get all the way to the 
other (component) side of the board for the desoldering to work.


Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

2017-01-16 Thread Steven M Jones

On 01/10/2017 14:09, Andy Cloud wrote:
> 
> I thought this would be an interesting question to ask around - What's the
> rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

Rare and unusual? That disqualifies a lot of things that are neat, maybe
uncommon, but mainstream.

Wicat S-2000 server. Wicat developed a neat blend of UNIX and VMS for
their systems based on the M68k family.

One of the Omron LUNA 88k workstations used for Mach development at CMU.
One Omron label on back has "Prototype #" printed in the "S/N" field,
with "012" hand-written next to it. But another, more complete label
that identifies it as a "3W4SX-9100/DT8816N Multi Processor Work
Station" has "S047" as the serial number.

Three Nat Semi ICM-3216 board sets from the University of New Brunswick.
Two in large custom-built enclosures were used for timesharing, and one
in a PC-style case was used for systems programming projects. If any of
the disks could be coaxed, I'm not sure if I'd find SysV or GENIX.

One of CompuPro's 32016 S-100 cards. Have the standard CompuPro board
documentation, but no software.

Two Nat Semi ICEs for the 32016, and I think software for a VAX/VMS
host, somewhere.

--S.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

On Jan 16, 2017, at 1:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:
> 
>>> If I can mention items that I have owned, the list becomes slightly
>>> longer: a PC532, Symbolics MacIvory II and a TI microExplorer.
>> 
>> What happened to the MacIvory II and microExplorer?
> 
> If we're considering MacIvories in this category, there's one sitting
> next to me (MacIvory III in a IIci host, 8MW RAM, Genera 8.3).

Why wouldn’t we? They’re actually really rare, and quite nice.

Some of us have been looking for a MacIvory — or a microExplorer — for a very 
long time. It requires quite a bit of luck to acquire one.

One thing I’m keenly interested in finding is a way to reload the TI Explorer 
and microExplorer software. I’ve used the Meroko emulator, but only with the 
image of a workstation at WSU running the Explorer 4.1 system. I’d like to load 
a fresh environment on it from the final Explorer system release, if I could 
acquire such a thing.

  -- Chris

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread Toby Thain


On 2017-01-16 3:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

Does anyone have any thoughts as to when that term, or a near
equivalent was first
used?

The reason I ask is that I have been looking in some old photographic books and
have turned up a 1954 advert for the Wrayflex (an obscure British single lens
reflex camera). The text ends with :
;...through the lens focusing at any distance. No adjustment for paralax. No
coupled rangefinder. Just the simple axiom ...
"What you see, you get" '

I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)

-tony



Maybe you can try Google N-grams?

--Toby

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?


On Mon, 16 Jan 2017, Tony Duell wrote:

My point is that a very similar phrase ('What you see, you get') was
used by a camera manufactuer
some 15 years earlier (at least).


Can you find any of the ads for earlier SLRs?
Exakta dates from late 1930's, but there were almost certainly a few more 
obscure ones earlier.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

2017-01-16 Thread Steven M Jones

On 01/15/2017 08:23, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
> 
>> If the 32016 had a second generation
> 
> It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx

This kind of "buries the lead," however -- the NS32532 inspired the
pc532 by George Scolaro and Dave Rand at the very end of the 1980s. This
very capable and fairly complex design was freely available, right down
to the Gerber files and PAL equations.

Dave and George had previously worked on a PC/AT coprocessor board using
the 32016 for Definicon. The pc532 eventually supported MINIX, Mach, and
NetBSD ports. Phil Budne and some others on this list participated - I
could only afford to cheer from the sidelines...

NatSemi reworked various 32k chip designs into versions for embedded
use, eventually. The 32cg16, based on the 32016, had a healthy run in
printers for several years before the 32gx32 came along.

Off the top of my head, I can only recall the pc532 and the later model
of ETH's Ceres workstations as examples of "single-user" machines using
the '532. And of course if anybody wants to get rid of one, I'd be happy
to oblige... ;)

Links:
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC532
   http://www.netbsd.org/ports/pc532
   http://cpu-ns32k.net/index.html

--S.

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

> From: Al Kossow

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG
> As it relates to computing, there are multiple claims to first use of
> the phrase:
> In mid-1975, John W. Seybold .. and researchers at PARC, incorporated
> Gypsy software into Bravo to create Bravo 3, which allowed text to be
> printed as displayed. Charles Simonyi and the other engineers
> appropriated Flip Wilson's popular phrase around that time.

I looked in the Bravo section of the Alto User's Manual (September 1979), and
in the "Look hardcopy" section (pg. 38), which describes how Bravo can put the
text on the screen almost exactly as how it will appear when printed ("by
positioning each character on the screen within one-half [pixel] of its
position in the final hardcopy"), but I see no reference to WYSIWYG there.

So it must have gotten that tag later. Probably the best way to track the
etymology on this is to look in NewNews archives.

> The phrase was coined in 1982 by Larry Sinclair, an engineer at
> ... ("Triple I") to express the idea that what the user sees on the
> screen is what the user gets on the printer

This exact idea existed in Bravo some years before (see above), and was well
known.


> From: Tony Duell

> a very similar phrase ('What you see, you get') was used by a camera
> manufactuer some 15 years earlier (at least)

Yes, but I'll bet Flip Wilson never read any of their ads! :-)

(And I think one can be pretty safe in saying that it was his use of the
phrase that made it popular - at least, in the US. Not sure if the FWS was
picked up on any British channels.)

Noel

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

2017-01-16 Thread Lars Brinkhoff

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > I'll take this opportutity to ask what CAIOS was? It seems
> > intimately related to Chaosnet. Maybe an earlier name for Chaos
>
> Yeah, that rings a bell, vaguely.  Where did you find a referece too
> it? I just did a Google search, no luck.

There is just about only one reference online:
http://voltaire.nfshost.com/transfer/sysdoc-chaord.txt

The messages transmitted through the ether (or CAIOS) net consist of
a packet followed by a three-word trailer
[...]
The reason this stuff is in a trailer rather than a leader is that
the caiosnet hardware actually transmits the packet backwards.
[...]
This protocol is intended mainly for communication between the
plasma physics pdp11 in bldg. 38 and a pdp11 in 545, until the
caiosnet gets extended that far (or a longer-distance, lower-speed
caiosnet is extended to various machines off in that direction.)

The ITS file SYSTEM; ITSDEV 974 mentions it:

SUBTTL  INTERFACE (?) TO DM PDP11 ON NTY (REALLY WANT A CAIOS)

Something called the "KANSAS dump" has a lot of Lisp Machine files.
One of which says

The initial phase of the LISP Machine Project, that of constructing
a prototype operational system, is rapidly nearing completion.
Current plans call for a complete skeletal system to exist by the
end of 1976.
[...]
The CAIOS net (or MACNET or ETHERNET as you prefer) is making slow
but fairly steady progress.  Recently, the cable has been ordered
and is in house, and connectors have been decided upon (always a
sticky issue).  Breadboard cable drivers and receivers have been
constructed and the prototype interface board made operational.  We
expect initial CAOIS net operation to occur by March 1977.

http://www.unlambda.com/download/mit/kansas-orig.tar.gz

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

The saying itself probably hearkens back to at least the 1940s.  That it
was made popular by Flip Wilson's Geraldine character is indisputable.

That common usage probably accounts for the computer use with respect to
word processing.   Were this not true, the term would be something like
WYSIWYP or WYSIWIP  (What you see is what is printed), which was the
point of the software.

--Chuck

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

A Symbolics XL400 workstation with an 4MW extra memory board and two 780MB ESDI 
disks, for a total of 8MW (48MB) of memory and 1.5GB of storage in 1991.

  -- Chris

Re: Soldapullt original vs III

2017-01-16 Thread Corey Cohen





corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ
> On Jan 16, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
>> On 01/16/2017 06:40 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:
>> So I think I need to upgrade to a real Soldapullt instead of the RadioShack 
>> special.
>> 
>> Is the slimline III model as good as the original bulky one?  I don't mind 
>> the xtra pressure to push down the plunger on the original, I'm concerned 
>> with the effectiveness and ability to get in tight places my Hakko FR gun 
>> can't fit easily or when it's not worth changing tips for a single different 
>> component.
>> 
>> 
> Well, these things work, but if you've ever used a real desoldering station 
> with vacuum pump (or venturi pump) you'll realize how second-rate they are.  
> I routinely desolder things like 68-pin connectors with a Pace desoldering 
> tool.  The long-acting suction with a pump makes it work 10X better.  The 
> trick, as described in the Pace manuals, is you heat the connection for 
> several seconds, then apply vacuum and orbit the tip so it moves the 
> component pin in the plated through hole.  That orbiting gets ALL the solder 
> out of the hole.
> It is amazingly better than the piston-type solder pullers.
> 
> There are also units that combine the heated tip with the piston suction 
> unit, and work better, as the joint is kept hot while the solder is pulled 
> out.  This is kind of in between the two other types.
> 
> Jon

Jon,
I have a hakko FR-300 desoldering gun and a knock off of a hakko station.  Your 
right about general use of the vacuum pump tools, but I need something I can 
use when it's not practical to drag my hakko gun around and also when I work on 
some disk drives where I can't easily get in to change caps but it's a bigger 
hassle to remove the board (i.e. The lamp amplifier board on a persci drive) 

So I'm hoping someone has some experience using both of these Soldapullt models 
so I can decide which one to order.  

Thanks,
Cheers,
Corey

A compilation of PalmOS versions

2017-01-16 Thread Liam Proven

This might be a bit new for some folk hereabouts, but I found it interesting.

http://www.osnews.com/story/29602/The_elusive_Palm_OS_5_5_Garnet_emulator_for_Windows_Linux

Trying to collect and run every major version of PalmOS on modern PCs.
There's a lot of interesting historic detail, and for once, _do_ read
the comments!

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

On Jan 12, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Raymond Wiker  wrote:
> 
> I've been following this topic, and suddenly realised… that I don't actually 
> have any particularly rare or unusual items – the nearest I can think of is a 
> Commodore N-60 navigation calculator, but I also have two early Apple IIs.
> 
> If I can mention items that I have owned, the list becomes slightly longer: a 
> PC532, Symbolics MacIvory II and a TI microExplorer.

What happened to the MacIvory II and microExplorer?

  -- Chris

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

On Jan 12, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Leif Johansson  wrote:
> 
> I saved one of the MIT CADR top-of-rack plates (the one with the logo
> and a sticker from the lab on it). Me and peter recently discovered
> he saved the rest of the box. Will probably reunite at some point :-)

Nice! Any media/storage with it too, or just the system itself?

The full software stack for the CADR is available so even if you don’t have 
storage or media, if you could interface something emulating what it expects, 
the system could be brought back to life.

  -- Chris

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

> From: Lars Brinkhoff

>> like the Chess Machine, it was a special purpose CPU hung off the AI
>> PDP-10. (Or maybe the Chess Machine was attached to MC? I forget.)

It's also possible that it was connected to AI at one point, and MC later on.
I have this bit set about being told that when it was competing in some chess
tournament, they disabled logins (and I have this bit set that it was on MC,
since it was the fastest machine) so that they'd get the best performance.
But it's all foggy at this point.

I'm pretty sure that CHEOPS and CONS were in the same room (not in the raised
floor area of the 9th floor) at one point, but again, don't rely too heavily
on that memory. And I think the first CADR was in there too, while they were
debugging it - I remember one evening watching over Dave Moon's shoulder in
the room next door, while they tried to get the first CADR running.

> Would that Chess Machine be the one called CHEOPS?

Yes, that's it.

> I'll take this opportutity to ask what CAIOS was? It seems intimately
> related to Chaosnet. Maybe an earlier name for Chaos

Yeah, that rings a bell, vaguely.

Where did you find a referece too it? I just did a Google search, no luck.

Noel

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread allison


On 1/16/17 1:48 PM, william degnan wrote:

Maybe Ted Nelson used the term to refer to computing specifically in late
1960s or within Dream Machines?
b



On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:


Yes, but the actual phrase comes from the Flip Wilson show

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flip_Wilson_Show


On 1/16/17 10:25 AM, Tony Duell wrote:


I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)



First time I heard wizzywhig (wysiwyg pronounced) was at DEC in the 
early 80s in the context
of terminals (less than 100dpi then) and printers (greater than 300dpi) 
and typset quality documents

and images.


FYI the same group of us used WYGINS  (wiginns, what you get is no 
surprize) to refer to

printing what you meant vs what you see.

In both terms the spoken references are old but the acronyms were newer 
with their own unique

pronunciation.

My favorite was WYPI-WYGO for virtual connections that simulated wires. 
Wippy-whygo was
what you put in will be what you get out.Sorta like GIGO save for 
its for valid stuff in will

always be the exact valid stuff out.

DEC was a haven for acronyms and even had an internal guide for those in 
use by group or system.

BTDT HTS, been there did that have the t-shirt.

Allison

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread allison


On 1/16/17 2:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

Etymology

The phrase "what you see is what you get", from which the acronym derives, was 
a catchphrase popularized by Flip
Wilson's drag persona Geraldine, first appearing in September 1969, then 
regularly in the early 1970s on The Flip Wilson
Show. The phrase was a statement demanding acceptance of Geraldine's entire 
personality and appearance.

As it relates to computing, there are multiple claims to first use of the 
phrase:

 In mid-1975, John W. Seybold, the founder of Seybold Publications, and 
researchers at PARC, incorporated Gypsy
software into Bravo to create Bravo 3, which allowed text to be printed as 
displayed. Charles Simonyi and the other
engineers appropriated Flip Wilson's popular phrase around that time.[13][14]
 Barbara Beeton reports that the term was coined by Bill Tunnicliffe in a 
presentation at a 1978 committee meeting
involving the Graphic Communications Association (GCA), the American 
Mathematical Society (AMS), and the Printing
Industries of America (PIA).[15]
 The phrase was coined in 1982[16] by Larry Sinclair, an engineer at Information 
International, Inc. ("Triple I") to
express the idea that what the user sees on the screen is what the user gets on the 
printer while using the "page layout
system", a pre-press typesetting system first shown at ANPS in Las Vegas.[when?]



Sure...

My point is that a very similar phrase ('What you see, you get') was
used by a camera manufactuer
some 15 years earlier (at least).

-tony

But the camera ad did not have WYSYG it had the full sentence and was 
not pronounced as Wissygit or some variation.
By the 1980s that new word from the pronunciation of the acronym trend 
had started to happen.


Likely its older than that but its a evolutionary thing as to usage and 
how it was said and written.


That lead to WYSIWYG pronounced as wizzywhig, from the former what you 
see is what you get.  There were variations

as well.

Allison

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item

2017-01-16 Thread mark


From: Al Kossow 


On 1/15/17 10:02 AM, Jay West wrote:
I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are running are the rarest that 
I'm aware of.
So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones 
left, anywhere.


probably true.
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682887
is probably an Access system, I never looked to see if it has the 
interprocessor comm link


Was it possible to configure an Access system with a mix of a 21MX and 2100? 
(I'm not challenging the assertion; it just never occurred to me...)


Actually, the thing I'm calling a 21MX is listed in the components list as a 
"1000".  Perhaps this implies that it (or they) was running one of the RTE 
operating systems.

~~
Mark Moulding

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?


On Mon, 16 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote:

   In mid-1975, John W. Seybold, the founder of Seybold Publications, and 
researchers at PARC, incorporated Gypsy
software into Bravo to create Bravo 3, which allowed text to be printed as 
displayed. Charles Simonyi and the other
engineers appropriated Flip Wilson's popular phrase around that time.[13][14]


OK, so use for computers, it was an appropriation of Flip Wilson's use.

Flip Wilson's use of the phrase as a comedic social/vaguely sexual 
catchphrase was an appropriation of an earlier phrase in other uses.
It was not "never heard before"!  (Just as "You Asked For It, You Got It" 
existed long before and after the TV show of the same name)


One of those uses in mid-sixties (and apparently earlier) was in 
photography for single lens reflex, intending to point out its advantage 
over rangefinder (Leica, etc.)  As such, it was not uncommonly used, 
although never with as much intensity or silliness as when Flip Wilson 
picked it up.   The alternative rangefinder systems did not have a 
catchphrase, just a thinner registration distance permitting much smaller 
cameras until the development of mirrorless DSLR (M4/3, Nex, etc. which 
can use Leica lenses on adapters)



The alternative to WYSIWYG in computers, of embedding format codes visible 
to the author (such as "raw" HTML) was sometimes called YAFIYGI ("You 
Asked For It, You Got It").  That name never really caught on, as 
amateurs, such as ourselves, needed WYSIWYG.  A professional typesetter 
scoffed at it, "I know what 36 point Helvetica looks like, I don't need it 
in my way to set a line of it."  Although I did my early XenoCopy manuals 
with embedded Cordata codes and XenoFont screen captures, without his 
level of experience, I have difficulty justifying a line of text without 
WYSIWYG.   And, contrary to the ads, WYSIWYG does NOT give me the 
capability of producing output comparable to his.



Which brings up another ATTRIBUTION question.  I think that it was Douglas 
Adams who said that DeskTop Publishing permits "justification of lines of 
text that previously would have had no possible justification".  Anyone 
know the correct attribution details?



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Soldapullt original vs III

On 01/16/2017 11:26 AM, Brian Walenz wrote:

> I've also started reflowing and adding fresh solder before attempting
> to desolder.  Could be better heat transfer, or just easier to suck
> up a larger blob.

On a veneered and generated board like one from a PDP-8, I'd probably
use a fusible alloy, such as Chip-Quik and avoid elevated temperatures
altogether.

--Chuck

Re: ISO Altos 686/886 documentation



On 1/16/17 7:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> I'm also still trying to figure out if there is any way to do an inital 
> format since
> at least the CP/M tools expect a config block on disk before you can 
> partition it,
> which optionally will format the disk (chicken and egg).
> 

Turns out what I need is the 686/886 SDX diagnostic diskette.

Re: Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday

On Jan 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Jules Richardson  
wrote:
> 
> On 01/14/2017 10:12 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:
>> Maybe I’ll take some time out on Monday to finally fit mine with the
>> replacement analog board that I’ve acquired, so I can enjoy that
>> beautiful bluish-white phosphor glow once again.
> 
> I have a couple - but only one mouse, and no keyboards, which is a bit of a 
> problem :-)
> 
> I think someone had worked out the protocol and scancodes, so there was the 
> possibility of making an interface for a modern keyboard, but there are just 
> far too many other projects in the way first.

If I remember correctly, the protocol is documented in Inside Macintosh Volume 
III. The scan codes are definitely documented somewhere in the original Volumes 
I-III, and again in IV.

(Inside Macintosh Volume IV documented the Mac 512Ke and the Mac Plus; the Plus 
keyboard combined the original keyboard with the numeric keypad.)

  -- Chris

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread william degnan

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Tony Duell  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG
> >
> > Etymology
> >
> >
>

> Sure...
>
> My point is that a very similar phrase ('What you see, you get') was
> used by a camera manufactuer
> some 15 years earlier (at least).
>
> -tony
>

I was curious to see if Ted Nelson used this term in Computer Lib or Dream
Machines.  A 5 minute browse did not reveal this, but I thought for sure
once I read something he wrote that used this term..

Also, I found that there was a 1975 supplement to the original 1974 Dream
Machines, so even if you have a "first printing" check the Dream Machines
side to see if you have the special 1975 supplement that includes
references to the Altair etc.

The 1975 version is a  tad squarer than the 1974 actual first printing.
You would not notice unless you put them on top of each other (like I
did).  Not trying to hijack this thread, just passing along a factoid.  The
back point is be careful if you have the opportunity to buy a "first
printing" of Computer Lib, that it's the taller thin version without the
1975 supplement, a few extra pages added to the front of Dream Machines.  I
think Computer Lib is as-was.

Soon afterwards there was a more book-like Computer Lib, that's not what I
am talking about.

Bill

Re: Soldapullt original vs III

2017-01-16 Thread Brian Walenz

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> [...]

a pump makes it work 10X better.  The trick, as described in the Pace
> manuals, is you heat the connection for several seconds, then apply vacuum
> and orbit the tip so it moves the component pin in the plated through
> hole.  That orbiting gets ALL the solder out of the hole.
>

While I wholeheartedly agree with the tool advice and the trick, I lifted a
bunch of traces on a PDP8a CPU board doing this.  I don't know if it was
the particular board or generally crappy manufacturing at issue here.  All
the HP test equipment I've fixed, most if not all from 1985+-7, survived
worse punishment.

I've also started reflowing and adding fresh solder before attempting to
desolder.  Could be better heat transfer, or just easier to suck up a
larger blob.

b

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

2017-01-16 Thread Lars Brinkhoff

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> My memory of the CONS machine is that, like the Chess Machine, it was
> a special purpose CPU hung off the AI PDP-10. (Or maybe the Chess
> Machine was attached to MC? I forget.)

Would that Chess Machine be the one called CHEOPS?

And oh, since I may have the attention of LispM hackers, I'll take this
opportutity to ask what CAIOS was?  It seems intimately related to
Chaosnet.  Maybe an earlier name for Chaos, or a Chaosnet hardware device?

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread Tony Duell

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG
>
> Etymology
>
> The phrase "what you see is what you get", from which the acronym derives, 
> was a catchphrase popularized by Flip
> Wilson's drag persona Geraldine, first appearing in September 1969, then 
> regularly in the early 1970s on The Flip Wilson
> Show. The phrase was a statement demanding acceptance of Geraldine's entire 
> personality and appearance.
>
> As it relates to computing, there are multiple claims to first use of the 
> phrase:
>
> In mid-1975, John W. Seybold, the founder of Seybold Publications, and 
> researchers at PARC, incorporated Gypsy
> software into Bravo to create Bravo 3, which allowed text to be printed as 
> displayed. Charles Simonyi and the other
> engineers appropriated Flip Wilson's popular phrase around that time.[13][14]
> Barbara Beeton reports that the term was coined by Bill Tunnicliffe in a 
> presentation at a 1978 committee meeting
> involving the Graphic Communications Association (GCA), the American 
> Mathematical Society (AMS), and the Printing
> Industries of America (PIA).[15]
> The phrase was coined in 1982[16] by Larry Sinclair, an engineer at 
> Information International, Inc. ("Triple I") to
> express the idea that what the user sees on the screen is what the user gets 
> on the printer while using the "page layout
> system", a pre-press typesetting system first shown at ANPS in Las 
> Vegas.[when?]
>
>

Sure...

My point is that a very similar phrase ('What you see, you get') was
used by a camera manufactuer
some 15 years earlier (at least).

-tony

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

On 1/16/17 10:48 AM, william degnan wrote:
> Maybe Ted Nelson used the term to refer to computing specifically in late
> 1960s or within Dream Machines?
> b
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
>> Yes, but the actual phrase comes from the Flip Wilson show
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flip_Wilson_Show
>>
>>
>> On 1/16/17 10:25 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)
>>>
>>
>>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

Etymology

The phrase "what you see is what you get", from which the acronym derives, was 
a catchphrase popularized by Flip
Wilson's drag persona Geraldine, first appearing in September 1969, then 
regularly in the early 1970s on The Flip Wilson
Show. The phrase was a statement demanding acceptance of Geraldine's entire 
personality and appearance.

As it relates to computing, there are multiple claims to first use of the 
phrase:

In mid-1975, John W. Seybold, the founder of Seybold Publications, and 
researchers at PARC, incorporated Gypsy
software into Bravo to create Bravo 3, which allowed text to be printed as 
displayed. Charles Simonyi and the other
engineers appropriated Flip Wilson's popular phrase around that time.[13][14]
Barbara Beeton reports that the term was coined by Bill Tunnicliffe in a 
presentation at a 1978 committee meeting
involving the Graphic Communications Association (GCA), the American 
Mathematical Society (AMS), and the Printing
Industries of America (PIA).[15]
The phrase was coined in 1982[16] by Larry Sinclair, an engineer at 
Information International, Inc. ("Triple I") to
express the idea that what the user sees on the screen is what the user gets on 
the printer while using the "page layout
system", a pre-press typesetting system first shown at ANPS in Las Vegas.[when?]

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread william degnan

Maybe Ted Nelson used the term to refer to computing specifically in late
1960s or within Dream Machines?
b

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> Yes, but the actual phrase comes from the Flip Wilson show
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flip_Wilson_Show
>
>
> On 1/16/17 10:25 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> > I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)
> >
>
>

Re: Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

Yes, but the actual phrase comes from the Flip Wilson show

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flip_Wilson_Show


On 1/16/17 10:25 AM, Tony Duell wrote:

> I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)
>

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind



On 1/16/17 9:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> The robot that the AI Lab _did_ build, that was used in the production of
> CADR's, was a wire-wrap testing machine, used to verify the huge CPU panels
> immediately upon arrival. It was this large frame (made out of Dexion, IIRC)
> in which the CPU panel was laid horizontally.
>

Thanks. Another bit of mistranslated history.

Origins of the term 'WYSIWYG?

2017-01-16 Thread Tony Duell

Does anyone have any thoughts as to when that term, or a near
equivalent was first
used?

The reason I ask is that I have been looking in some old photographic books and
have turned up a 1954 advert for the Wrayflex (an obscure British single lens
reflex camera). The text ends with :
;...through the lens focusing at any distance. No adjustment for paralax. No
coupled rangefinder. Just the simple axiom ...
"What you see, you get" '

I wonder what predates that usage (if anything)

-tony

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

> From: Al Kossow

> I assume that CONS ww panel we had on display in Boston was there
> because it was wired by a robot they built.

I don't know for sure about the CONS, but I'm pretty sure no CADR's were wired
at the AI Lab; ISTR that some outside fabricator did them. (Probably a place
with tape-controlled wire-wrap machines.)


The robot that the AI Lab _did_ build, that was used in the production of
CADR's, was a wire-wrap testing machine, used to verify the huge CPU panels
immediately upon arrival. It was this large frame (made out of Dexion, IIRC)
in which the CPU panel was laid horizontally.

It had two 'test heads' (not sure of their exact name) which were moveable
(details below), each of which had a little arm with a little round solid test
probe sticking down. The test head would roll up to where the pin it wanted to
continuity check was, and lower the little arm (it moved about 1/2", or so,
IIRC). If the probe wasn't centered exactly on the pin, the test probe would
slide off the pin, and go further down, and the machine could sense that. So
it would raise the probe, and hunt around a bit in a trial-and-error process
until it landed on the pin. Then the other test head did the same thing, and
then it could do the test (dunno if it checked for shorts, as well as pin-pin
continuity per the wire list); repeat ad nauseam.

The two test heads were supported on beams (supported at both ends, IIRC)
which could run back and forth on tracks, with the heads moving up and down
the beams, all driven by a pair of plastic chains (which looked like miniature
rope ladders), one each for X and Y axis motion. Those were driven off a
couple of stepper motors attached to the frame, IIRC. I don't recall how it
was done so that the two heads and their support beams didn't interfere with
each other - possibly there was one on each end, and each had half of the
panel to itself? (I think probably that, now that I think about it.)

It was the most amazing Rube Goldberg device, and a blast to watch running,
but it did the job.

Noel

Re: Soldapullt original vs III

2017-01-16 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/16/2017 06:40 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:

So I think I need to upgrade to a real Soldapullt instead of the RadioShack 
special.

Is the slimline III model as good as the original bulky one?  I don't mind the 
xtra pressure to push down the plunger on the original, I'm concerned with the 
effectiveness and ability to get in tight places my Hakko FR gun can't fit 
easily or when it's not worth changing tips for a single different component.


Well, these things work, but if you've ever used a real 
desoldering station with vacuum pump (or venturi pump) 
you'll realize how second-rate they are.  I routinely 
desolder things like 68-pin connectors with a Pace 
desoldering tool.  The long-acting suction with a pump makes 
it work 10X better.  The trick, as described in the Pace 
manuals, is you heat the connection for several seconds, 
then apply vacuum and orbit the tip so it moves the 
component pin in the plated through hole.  That orbiting 
gets ALL the solder out of the hole.

It is amazingly better than the piston-type solder pullers.

There are also units that combine the heated tip with the 
piston suction unit, and work better, as the joint is kept 
hot while the solder is pulled out.  This is kind of in 
between the two other types.


Jon

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

2017-01-16 Thread Leif Johansson



On 2017-01-16 16:22, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > From: Alfred M. Szmidt
> 
> > The closest to a picture of a CADR that I have seen 
> 
> The picture posted earlier of the machine in the MIT Archives:
> 
>   
> http://questier.com/Photos/200907_USA/20090731-150406_USA_Massachusetts_MIT_Museum_CADR_LISP_Machine.jpg
> 
> is _definitely_ a CADR.
> 
>   Noel
> 

Thats the CADR-sing I have :-)

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

   > How do you figure that?

   Umm, because I saw them every day, for several years? :-) (They were
   scattered all over the 9th floor at Tech Sq.)

   Admittedly, it's hard to tell a picture (from the front, where one can only
   see a giant wire-wrapped assembly) of the CONS machine from a picture of a
   CADR, but that one also has the CADR header-plate.

Fair enough! And muchas gracias to Al as well for his response!

   Also, from a previous message:

   > these pictures are of a CONS, or a very early CADR prototype

   There were no CADR prototypes, other than the CONS.

   The first CADR built was, I am fairly certain, put into service as a general
   user machine; it likely had fixes applied during the bring-up process that
   were built in from the start on later machines, so they were all identical
   (i.e. no special software for that one machine), but there was no 'prototype
   CADR' left lying around gathering dust, unused.

Thank you! I'm basing my observations from ploughing through the CADR
source code, schematics and old incomplete mailing list archive.

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

> From: Alfred M. Szmidt

> How do you figure that?

Umm, because I saw them every day, for several years? :-) (They were
scattered all over the 9th floor at Tech Sq.)

Admittedly, it's hard to tell a picture (from the front, where one can only
see a giant wire-wrapped assembly) of the CONS machine from a picture of a
CADR, but that one also has the CADR header-plate.


Also, from a previous message:

> these pictures are of a CONS, or a very early CADR prototype

There were no CADR prototypes, other than the CONS.

The first CADR built was, I am fairly certain, put into service as a general
user machine; it likely had fixes applied during the bring-up process that
were built in from the start on later machines, so they were all identical
(i.e. no special software for that one machine), but there was no 'prototype
CADR' left lying around gathering dust, unused.

Noel

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

On 1/16/17 7:42 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:

>is _definitely_ a CADR.
> 
> How do you figure that?
> 

logo panel, for one, blue power strip on the bottom

and, I owned one for a while.

if pics are needed, I can see if I can get access to it again

I assume that CONS ww panel we had on display in Boston was there because it
was wired by a robot they built. It's certainly uninteresting otherwise, since
it has no components on it. Of course the people who took pictures didn't bother
to take a picture of the BACK of it.. you know, the INTERESTING side with the
wiring...

Re: Caldisk 8" drive (also ebay warning)

The drive certainly appears to be a Calcomp 142.

>From http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102736256

CHM has documents stating that the Calcomp operation was purchased by
Billings Corp. and the drives branded with the Caldisk logo.

--Chuck

ISO Altos 686/886 documentation

Worked on cleaning up and documenting the 686 and 886 I had over the weekend.
Pics and firmware up now on bitsavers, but I don't have any documentation. I'm
especially interested in the 8274 diagnostic serial port, which isn't installed
on either of my boards.

I'll have a hard disk image of Concurrent CP/M 4.1 for it up under 
bits/Altos/686
later today, just installing it now.

Also, the Xenix image from a 886 will boot on a 686. Turns out the disk in the 
686
had a bad head, which is a drag because the image I made of it is missing heads 
4 and 5.

I'm also still trying to figure out if there is any way to do an inital format 
since
at least the CP/M tools expect a config block on disk before you can partition 
it,
which optionally will format the disk (chicken and egg).

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

   > The closest to a picture of a CADR that I have seen 

   The picture posted earlier of the machine in the MIT Archives:

 
http://questier.com/Photos/200907_USA/20090731-150406_USA_Massachusetts_MIT_Museum_CADR_LISP_Machine.jpg

   is _definitely_ a CADR.

How do you figure that?

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

> From: Alfred M. Szmidt

> The closest to a picture of a CADR that I have seen 

The picture posted earlier of the machine in the MIT Archives:

  
http://questier.com/Photos/200907_USA/20090731-150406_USA_Massachusetts_MIT_Museum_CADR_LISP_Machine.jpg

is _definitely_ a CADR.

Noel

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind


   > From: Lars Brinkhoff

   > 
http://i0.wp.com/futurewavewebdevelopment.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/mertz01-2514878-8.jpg

   That might actually be the CONS Machine (effectively a prototype CADR);
   Greenblatt looks awfully young in that picture! Also, I don't recall him
   being super-involved in the CADR work. (You might ask him which it is!) 

I am inclined to agree that these pictures are of a CONS, or a very
early CADR prototype.  Both where relativley similar in design, mostly
differing in data widths.  The closest to a picture of a CADR that I
have seen are a few shots of the LM-2, and the LMI CADR, but they
mainly show the TV and keyboard.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/mit/cadr/CADR_brochure1.jpg

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/symbolics/brochures/LM-2.pdf

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

> From: Lars Brinkhoff

> 
http://i0.wp.com/futurewavewebdevelopment.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/mertz01-2514878-8.jpg

That might actually be the CONS Machine (effectively a prototype CADR);
Greenblatt looks awfully young in that picture! Also, I don't recall him
being super-involved in the CADR work. (You might ask him which it is!) 

The CONS CPU backplane is apparently now at the CHM:

  http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102647223

My memory of the CONS machine is that, like the Chess Machine, it was a
special purpose CPU hung off the AI PDP-10. (Or maybe the Chess Machine was
attached to MC? I forget.) However, while that may have been its state early
on, in reviewing some CONS documents I discovered that it was eventually
given a keyboard and display, although it did remain hooked up to the PDP-10.

The CONS machine is described in 3 AI Lab publications: Working Paper #79,
Working Paper #80 ("CONS", by Tom Knight), and Memo #444 ("LISP Machine
Progress Report"), The first is available here:

  
http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/mit/cadr/Greenblatt-The_LISP_Machine-1975.pdf

but it's just an architecture document. Memo #444 has an extensive "Current
Status - August 1977" section, which gives more info about the CONS machine as
built.

Noel

Re: SunoS 4.1.4 and Open Windows 3 on an IPX?

2017-01-16 Thread Mouse

>> It looks like there is a mismatch between what resolution Open
>> WIndows is using and how the frame buffer is configured.

It does.

>> My screen reports that the framebuffer is outputting 1280x1024@76Hz.

If it's a "modern" flatscreen, don't necessarily trust that.  I've seen
flatscreens claim some very, um, "creative" things about the input
signal if it doesn't use quite the sync timings the screen wants (which
are, of course, invariably undocumented).

For example, my usual desktop machine is a SPARCstation-20.  Years ago,
I figured out how to get them to generate resultions the ROMs don't
account for.  Recently, I tried to drive a recent flatscreen with a
SS20, and, while fidding with the various timings, I had the flatscreen
report wildly ludicrous resolutions when all I was changing was the
sync timing.

>> On the other hand, when SunOS boots it finds the cgsix0 and reports
>> that the resolution is 1000x1022!?

That's...odd.  I can't help wondering where it got that.  Out of all
the framebuffers I've poked at, I've never seen that resolution.  The
usual resolutions close to that are 1152x900 and 1280x1024, and those
are landscape, not portrait.

If you can test-boot NetBSD - from a CD or from the network, for
example - I'd be interested to hear what it thinks the resolution is.
Also, if you can capture printenv output from the ok prompt, I'd be
curious about that too.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: SunoS 4.1.4 and Open Windows 3 on an IPX?

2017-01-16 Thread Mattis Lind

Hello Jim!

2017-01-16 13:14 GMT+01:00 jim stephens :

>
>
> On 1/16/2017 3:58 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
>
>> I have installed SunoS 4.1.4 on a an IPX and then tried to start Open
>> Windows 3  from the command line.
>>
>> I get a garbled screen that looks like this:
>>
>> http://i.imgur.com/jWcbqYO.jpg?1
>>
>> It looks like there is a mismatch between what resolution Open WIndows is
>> using and how the frame buffer is configured. My screen reports that the
>> framebuffer is outputting 1280x1024@76Hz.
>>
>> How can this be adjusted? I have read this manual:
>> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sun/openWin
>> dows/Open_Windows_Version_3_Installation_and_Start-Up_Guide_Sep91.pdf
>>
>> and various FAQs trying to modify EEPROM settings etc but it won't work.
>>
>> I understand that the 13W3 cable includes a number of sense lines so that
>> the framebuffer can adjust to the monitor used. I haven't checked how 13W3
>> to VGA cable is configured but I assume it tells the FB to use
>> 1280x1024@76Hz since it is what the screen reports.
>>
> I think you may need to force the display if you can to the 1000x1022
> resolution.  That doesn't sound too far off what I recall the resolutions
> were.
>
are you connecting into the thing thru serial so you can poke around?  I
> don't recall for sure if the default loaded system allows serial login, but
> you might be able to get on thru the serial port and adjust things as
> well.  I didn't read the guide above, this is from fighting with the
> systems long ago.
>

Sorry. I failed to mention that it works fine at the SunOS prompt. I have a
standard text terminal so I don't need to have a serial until I bring up
Open Windows. But how can I get it to use 1000x1022 anyhow. It seems that
when it start up it is at 1280x1024@76Hz probably because of the sense
lines.

If I am able to change the sense lines I could probably set it to 1152x900
according to this table: http://pinouts.ru/Video/SunVideo_pinout.shtml

But it would probably hard to do it without some kind of adapter or surgery
to the cable.

The 1000x1022 resolution is not on the list so I doubt that I can force it
into that easily, or? And 1000x1022 is a really strange setting anyway.
Where does that come from?


>
> I used a box that was made by Raritan or such to convert the video and
> keyboard to allow connection to VGA KVM and those boxes had some active
> circuitry in them to do things with the selects.  They weren't doing
> anything as far as sync adjustment, but may have pulled a different set of
> settings to both the Sun system and to the KVM and on to the display.  I
> did not have much trouble with that, so don't recall having to play with
> the frame buffer settings.
>

Do you happen to remember what resolution you were using?


>
> thanks
> Jim
>
> On the other hand, when SunOS boots it finds the cgsix0 and reports that
>> the resolution is 1000x1022!?
>>
>> Any idea on how to set different resolutions in Open Windows? What I am
>> not
>> understanding here? The word resolution is not even mentioned in the
>> Installation manual for Open Windows above...
>>
>> /Mattis
>>
>>
>>
> /Mattis

Soldapullt original vs III

2017-01-16 Thread Corey Cohen

So I think I need to upgrade to a real Soldapullt instead of the RadioShack 
special.  

Is the slimline III model as good as the original bulky one?  I don't mind the 
xtra pressure to push down the plunger on the original, I'm concerned with the 
effectiveness and ability to get in tight places my Hakko FR gun can't fit 
easily or when it's not worth changing tips for a single different component.  

Thanks,
Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

Re: SunoS 4.1.4 and Open Windows 3 on an IPX?

2017-01-16 Thread jim stephens

On 1/16/2017 3:58 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:

I have installed SunoS 4.1.4 on a an IPX and then tried to start Open
Windows 3 from the command line.

I get a garbled screen that looks like this:

http://i.imgur.com/jWcbqYO.jpg?1

It looks like there is a mismatch between what resolution Open WIndows is
using and how the frame buffer is configured. My screen reports that the
framebuffer is outputting 1280x1024@76Hz.

How can this be adjusted? I have read this manual:
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sun/openWindows/Open_Windows_Version_3_Installation_and_Start-Up_Guide_Sep91.pdf

and various FAQs trying to modify EEPROM settings etc but it won't work.

I understand that the 13W3 cable includes a number of sense lines so that
the framebuffer can adjust to the monitor used. I haven't checked how 13W3
to VGA cable is configured but I assume it tells the FB to use
1280x1024@76Hz since it is what the screen reports.
I think you may need to force the display if you can to the 1000x1022
resolution. That doesn't sound too far off what I recall the
resolutions were.

are you connecting into the thing thru serial so you can poke around? I
don't recall for sure if the default loaded system allows serial login,
but you might be able to get on thru the serial port and adjust things
as well. I didn't read the guide above, this is from fighting with the
systems long ago.

I used a box that was made by Raritan or such to convert the video and
keyboard to allow connection to VGA KVM and those boxes had some active
circuitry in them to do things with the selects. They weren't doing
anything as far as sync adjustment, but may have pulled a different set
of settings to both the Sun system and to the KVM and on to the
display. I did not have much trouble with that, so don't recall having
to play with the frame buffer settings.

thanks
Jim

On the other hand, when SunOS boots it finds the cgsix0 and reports that
the resolution is 1000x1022!?

Any idea on how to set different resolutions in Open Windows? What I am not
understanding here? The word resolution is not even mentioned in the
Installation manual for Open Windows above...

/Mattis

SunoS 4.1.4 and Open Windows 3 on an IPX?

2017-01-16 Thread Mattis Lind

I have installed SunoS 4.1.4 on a an IPX and then tried to start Open
Windows 3  from the command line.

I get a garbled screen that looks like this:

http://i.imgur.com/jWcbqYO.jpg?1

It looks like there is a mismatch between what resolution Open WIndows is
using and how the frame buffer is configured. My screen reports that the
framebuffer is outputting 1280x1024@76Hz.

How can this be adjusted? I have read this manual:
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sun/openWindows/Open_Windows_Version_3_Installation_and_Start-Up_Guide_Sep91.pdf

and various FAQs trying to modify EEPROM settings etc but it won't work.

I understand that the 13W3 cable includes a number of sense lines so that
the framebuffer can adjust to the monitor used. I haven't checked how 13W3
to VGA cable is configured but I assume it tells the FB to use
1280x1024@76Hz since it is what the screen reports.

On the other hand, when SunOS boots it finds the cgsix0 and reports that
the resolution is 1000x1022!?

Any idea on how to set different resolutions in Open Windows? What I am not
understanding here? The word resolution is not even mentioned in the
Installation manual for Open Windows above...

/Mattis

Re: Close encounters of the CADR kind

2017-01-16 Thread Lars Brinkhoff

Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
> Does anyone have close up pictures of the MIT CADR?  Boards, the
> maintaince indicator display, anything interesting and close up.  LM-2
> and and Lambda would also be of curiosity.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/CADR_-_The_Lisp_Machine,_late_1970s,_view_3_-_MIT_Museum_-_DSC03754.JPG

I suppose these are short on those kind of details.

http://i0.wp.com/futurewavewebdevelopment.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/mertz01-2514878-8.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.timetoast.com/public/uploads/photos/8907151/cadr.jpg

High resolution at least:

http://questier.com/Photos/200907_USA/20090731-150406_USA_Massachusetts_MIT_Museum_CADR_LISP_Machine.jpg

Close encounters of the CADR kind