RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[tony duell]

> So I've got the machine being quiet now (no buzz).  And I've confirmed the 
> unit does 
> not try to engage the motor unless switched to Line or Local mode.  The 
> second you
> turn the switch, the motor does about a 1/4 turn and then there's a visible 
> spark from
> the bottom of the fuse holder.  So I'm guessing this must be caps or 
> something 
> drawing too much power somewhere.

I assume this is with a good fuse in the holder. Without it, the motor should 
not be
powered at all. 

I would try removing the belt so as to remove the load from the motor. And then 
check the motor capacitor and starter relay (if there is one).

-tony

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[drlegendre .]

Brad,

Sounds like you're on the path to ultimate success - keep at it, and you'll
get to the heart of it.

There's no better guarantee for success than simply refusing (aka failing)
to give up at any time. Take needed breaks, review docs, listen to
suggestions - but never, ever quit until it's licked.

It's only then that you lose, and that's what separates the accomplished
from the pikers! =)

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Brad H <
vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net> wrote:

>
>
> It's not a matter of bothering.. it's a matter of not knowing what I'm
> looking at yet.  I was checking what I thought were all the clutches in the
> back.. they all seemed good.
> I guess changing caps would be a smart idea right off given they look
> original.  I'll check the diodes too.  I am just nosing around.. given it
> wasnt shorting out when it left.. I'm concerned something might have
> shifted in transit.
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung device
>
>  Original message 
> From: dwight <dkel...@hotmail.com>
> Date: 2016-10-14  7:36 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>
> I see you didn't bother to check the clutches. You'd have found that the
>
> clutch that reset the keyboard could be released.
>
> The buzzing may also be related to your fuse blowing the supply
>
> that feeds the receiving coil may have a shorted diode or capacitor.
>
> That would both explain the fuse and the buzz.
>
> Dwight
>
>
> 
> From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Brad H <
> vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 6:30:57 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing
>
> Got a little further.  The keyboard was definitely jammed.  I pulled the
> carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a
> piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering
> something.  Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck.  At any rate, I put the metal
> piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action).  I then
> wound the motor some more and got a bell sound.  After that, the keys
> started to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing
> as each key is pressed.
>
> Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but
> still blows out fuses.
>
> AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of.  The seller
> mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before
> shipping.  I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping.
>
>

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[dwight]

I see you didn't bother to check the clutches. You'd have found that the

clutch that reset the keyboard could be released.

The buzzing may also be related to your fuse blowing the supply

that feeds the receiving coil may have a shorted diode or capacitor.

That would both explain the fuse and the buzz.

Dwight



From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Brad H 
<vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 6:30:57 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing

Got a little further.  The keyboard was definitely jammed.  I pulled the 
carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a 
piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering 
something.  Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck.  At any rate, I put the metal 
piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action).  I then 
wound the motor some more and got a bell sound.  After that, the keys started 
to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing as each key 
is pressed.

Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but still 
blows out fuses.

AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of.  The seller 
mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before 
shipping.  I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping.

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

Got a little further.  The keyboard was definitely jammed.  I pulled the 
carriage over to the right and noted there's a bar on the left side that a 
piece of metal attached to the carriage belt hits, I assume triggering 
something.  Doesn't work.. the bar is stuck.  At any rate, I put the metal 
piece over it and the carriage returned on its own (spring action).  I then 
wound the motor some more and got a bell sound.  After that, the keys started 
to work properly -- I can see the little arms (code bars?) changing as each key 
is pressed.

Thought maybe if the keyboard was jammed that might short the motor.. but still 
blows out fuses.

AFAIK the unit was working before it was shipped, sort of.  The seller 
mentioned powering it up and doing a carriage return successfully before 
shipping.  I'm inclined to think something happened during shipping.  

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

So I've got the machine being quiet now (no buzz).  And I've confirmed the unit 
does not try to engage the motor unless switched to Line or Local mode.  The 
second you turn the switch, the motor does about a 1/4 turn and then there's a 
visible spark from the bottom of the fuse holder.  So I'm guessing this must be 
caps or something drawing too much power somewhere.

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

Okay so, a bit more playing around.  The buzzing stops if I rotate the motor.  
And then after rotating the motor if I power on and off, it just makes a single 
click.  Every so many turns though it starts buzzing again.

So maybe we need to get back to the motor and why it's not doing anything?  

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 2:06 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing

Think I understand.. I didn't have a clothespeg.. I took some heavy cardboard 
paper and folded it and then stuffed into the space between the cylinder and 
the back of the magnet.  Still buzzes.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:58 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing

My eyes must be going.. I can't see any clothespin in that photo.  I see an 
arrow and a dark space between that cylinder and the back of the magnet..

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing

If you put a clothes pin as this photo shows, does the buzzing go away?
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype/teletype_ASR33_clothespin-test.jpg
If so, then you may need to adjust a screw somewhere.  You may have an 
"incomplete" ready mode (just a little chattering when current loop is closed).
Bill

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
> wrote:

> I found it.  It`s this thing:
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE
>
> I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in.  That is
> *definitely* where the noise is from.   If I rotate the motor with it on,
> the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
> william degnan
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>
> It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader.  The motor 
> for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on
> one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply).  You have to follow 
> the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis.
> B
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H <vintagecomputer@ 
> bettercomputing.net
> > wrote:
>
> > Good question.  I only thought motor because it seemed like the 
> > noise was from back there.  And when I put a plastic tool against 
> > the outer casing, I could feel a vibration.  But now I'm wondering 
> > about that paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it 
> > did kinda sound like it might be coming from over there.  It's kind of 
> > diffuse.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
> > william degnan
> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < 
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
> >
> > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and 
> > not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6?
> > Bill
> >
> >
>
>

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

Think I understand.. I didn't have a clothespeg.. I took some heavy cardboard 
paper and folded it and then stuffed into the space between the cylinder and 
the back of the magnet.  Still buzzes.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:58 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: ASR 33 buzzing

My eyes must be going.. I can't see any clothespin in that photo.  I see an 
arrow and a dark space between that cylinder and the back of the magnet..

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing

If you put a clothes pin as this photo shows, does the buzzing go away?
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype/teletype_ASR33_clothespin-test.jpg
If so, then you may need to adjust a screw somewhere.  You may have an 
"incomplete" ready mode (just a little chattering when current loop is closed).
Bill

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
> wrote:

> I found it.  It`s this thing:
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE
>
> I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in.  That is
> *definitely* where the noise is from.   If I rotate the motor with it on,
> the noise changes depending on where the rotation is at.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
> william degnan
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>
> It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader.  The motor 
> for the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on
> one) or somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply).  You have to follow 
> the cable that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis.
> B
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H <vintagecomputer@ 
> bettercomputing.net
> > wrote:
>
> > Good question.  I only thought motor because it seemed like the 
> > noise was from back there.  And when I put a plastic tool against 
> > the outer casing, I could feel a vibration.  But now I'm wondering 
> > about that paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it 
> > did kinda sound like it might be coming from over there.  It's kind of 
> > diffuse.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
> > william degnan
> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < 
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
> >
> > stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and 
> > not the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6?
> > Bill
> >
> >
>
>

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[tony duell]

> I found it.  It`s this thing:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE

That is the receive magnet. An electromagnet coil that is supposed to be 
turned on an off by the incoming serial bits The complex camshaft arrangement
samples the state of that in the middle of every bit-time and effectively does
the serial to parallel conversion.

OK, it should be being fed by a DC current. There is a subchassis on the 
call control unit wiht a 9 pin (I think) molex plug on the side. It contains
a plug-in PCB, a transformer and a capacitor. That's where you should
be looking. Perhaps the capacitor has dried up so there is excessive
ripple on the supply lines.

-tony

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

I found it.  It`s this thing:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4pq0-BHd2x6Und4QVJQdGoyaFE

I can actually see it trying to engage when I plug in.  That is *definitely* 
where the noise is from.   If I rotate the motor with it on, the noise changes 
depending on where the rotation is at.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:18 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing

It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader.  The motor for the 
papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on one) or somewhere 
in the UCC-6 (the power supply).  You have to follow the cable that comes from 
the reader along the rim of the chassis.
B

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
> wrote:

> Good question.  I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise 
> was from back there.  And when I put a plastic tool against the outer 
> casing, I could feel a vibration.  But now I'm wondering about that 
> paper tape reader.. when I listened to the noise again it did kinda 
> sound like it might be coming from over there.  It's kind of diffuse.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
> william degnan
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>
> stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not 
> the reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6?
> Bill
>
>

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[william degnan]

It would actually be coming from the motor not the reader.  The motor for
the papertape reader is either in the pedestal (if your ASR is on one) or
somewhere in the UCC-6 (the power supply).  You have to follow the cable
that comes from the reader along the rim of the chassis.
B

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
> wrote:

> Good question.  I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise was
> from back there.  And when I put a plastic tool against the outer casing, I
> could feel a vibration.  But now I'm wondering about that paper tape
> reader.. when I listened to the noise again it did kinda sound like it
> might be coming from over there.  It's kind of diffuse.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
> degnan
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>
> stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not the
> reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6?
> Bill
>
>

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[tony duell]

> Good question.  I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise was
> from back there.  And when I put a plastic tool against the outer casing, I
> could feel a vibration.  But now I'm wondering about that paper tape reader..
> when I listened to the noise again it did kinda sound like it might be coming
> from over there.  It's kind of diffuse.

I would start disconnecting plugs in an attempt to silence the noise (and thus
determine the faulty section).

Pull out plug 4, which will isolate the motor and receiving magnet coil

There should be a PSU for the reader in the stand. Unplug the cable
from it.

Unplug the cable from the control unit that handles reader control. I
think that's plug 3. It's certainly not 6, 7, 8 and I think that only leaves
one in a normal machine.

If it still buzzes it pretty much has to be something in the call control
unit chassis. Maybe the transformer for the magnet driver power
(shorted rectifier or something?) Or the line relay (but that should
not be powered in 'off' or 'local'

-tony

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

Good question.  I only thought motor because it seemed like the noise was from 
back there.  And when I put a plastic tool against the outer casing, I could 
feel a vibration.  But now I'm wondering about that paper tape reader.. when I 
listened to the noise again it did kinda sound like it might be coming from 
over there.  It's kind of diffuse.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 1:05 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing

stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not the 
reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6?
Bill

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[william degnan]

stupid question - you're certain the motor is making the buzz and not the
reader motor or somewhere on the UCC-6?
Bill

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[tony duell]

> Check that all the clutches lock up. You can do this by hand. If
> 
> they drag it can stall the motor.

It may be worth removing the belt from the motor : 

If an air deflector is fitted over the fan remove it by loosening 
thw 2 screws between the fan and the motor and removing the
screw on top. Then unhook it from under the 2 screws and take
it out.

Undo the 2 screws on the clamps at each end of the motor (2
are the  2 screws refered to above) and lift off the clamps. 

Lift out the motor and free the belt from the sprocket. Hold
the belt out of the way (with a bit of wire or something), put
the motor back in place and fit the clamps to hold it. You can
now get the motor running with no load, if there is a problem
in the rest of the mechanism it can't stall the motor.

The motor is fed via 2 pins of plug 4 at the back of the control
unit. You can try disconnecting this to see if the control unit behaves.

According to the diagrams I have, the motor is not powered with
the switch in the 'Off' position. So you may have a problem with
the switch or a shorted snubber network in parallel with it.

There were various motors fitted to the Model 33 over the years.
Some had a current-operated relay to disconnect the starter winding
when the motor was up to speed (and drawing less current), If this
is not closing at switch-on, the starter winding will not be powered, the
motor can't run. The relay is a black plastic box on the mechanism chassis
(IIRC to the left of the motor) with 3 wires going to it. 

-tony

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[dwight]

Check that all the clutches lock up. You can do this by hand. If

they drag it can stall the motor.

Rotate and push on the tab on each. You have to hold the one

from the input coil as the last one. The tension from rotating should

hold them all.

Always start it in local to reduce the load.

If there is a problem with one of the clutches, you'll need to

rebuild that one.

Tinker Dwight



From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of David Collins 
<davidkcolli...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:56:45 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing

The start cap on mine was meant to be under the metalwork that holds the single 
fuse at the rear of the printer on the left side (looking from the front of the 
printer).

But don't be surprised if there isn't one.  Try the turning by hand first...  
it's quite possible one of the control bars has popped out into the guts of it 
and jammed things up.


David Collins
Client Engagement Manager
Dimension Data
Tel: +61 3 9626 0593
Mob: +61 424 785 131
e-mail: david.coll...@dimensiondata.com

(Sent from out of office)

> On 14 Oct. 2016, at 6:13 pm, drlegendre . <drlegen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> " I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a
> little black box connected to it.
> I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack
> from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a
> telegraph."
>
> The start/run caps can be tubular, rectangular or 'bathtub' shaped. Again,
> this is just generic advice and I can't say which shape(s) were used by TTY
> Corp.
>
> As for the one clack vs. telegraph-like clacks, that sounds an awful lot
> like a relay or solenoid that sometimes acts OK, and other times, sits
> there fluttering as it lacks sufficient current to pull-in or hold the
> relay armature. Bad filter caps in a DC supply (to the solenoid coil..) is
> classic for this.
>
> Ever seen a one of the cheap, obnoxious 120 AC buzzers they used in old
> stoves and so on, as a "done" signal? They're just an AC relay designed
> such that the coil cannot hold the armature between cycles - so it just
> buzzes like mad to alert you to the status of yr Pizza rolls. =P
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:46 AM, David Collins <davidkcolli...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the
>> operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the
>> keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load
>> up the mechanism and stall it.
>>
>> It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that
>> will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement.
>>
>> You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to
>> be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time.
>>
>> The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start
>> cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to
>> need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran
>> ok.
>>
>> If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a
>> bad or missing start cap may be your issue.
>>
>> David Collins
>> HP Computer Museum
>>
>>> On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I missed those somehow.. thank you.  Got a lot to learn with this beast!
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Samsung device
>>>
>>>  Original message 
>>> From: couryho...@aol.com
>>> Date: 2016-10-13  10:30 PM  (GMT-08:00)
>>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org, vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
>>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>>>
>>>
>>> did  you  get the  links  we  sent you  over
>>> on the greenkeys  list  for  sources on 33 manuals and paperwork
>>> we  sent you?  We did not get an acknowledgment.  thanks
>>> Ed#  www.smecc.org<http://www.smecc.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>>> vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net writes:
>>> The
>>> buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a
>>> plastic
>>> tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn
>>> it by
>>> hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms
>>> working.
>>>
>>> It did manage to work briefly ye

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[David Collins]

The start cap on mine was meant to be under the metalwork that holds the single 
fuse at the rear of the printer on the left side (looking from the front of the 
printer). 

But don't be surprised if there isn't one.  Try the turning by hand first...  
it's quite possible one of the control bars has popped out into the guts of it 
and jammed things up. 


David Collins
Client Engagement Manager
Dimension Data
Tel: +61 3 9626 0593
Mob: +61 424 785 131
e-mail: david.coll...@dimensiondata.com 

(Sent from out of office)

> On 14 Oct. 2016, at 6:13 pm, drlegendre . <drlegen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> " I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a
> little black box connected to it.
> I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack
> from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a
> telegraph."
> 
> The start/run caps can be tubular, rectangular or 'bathtub' shaped. Again,
> this is just generic advice and I can't say which shape(s) were used by TTY
> Corp.
> 
> As for the one clack vs. telegraph-like clacks, that sounds an awful lot
> like a relay or solenoid that sometimes acts OK, and other times, sits
> there fluttering as it lacks sufficient current to pull-in or hold the
> relay armature. Bad filter caps in a DC supply (to the solenoid coil..) is
> classic for this.
> 
> Ever seen a one of the cheap, obnoxious 120 AC buzzers they used in old
> stoves and so on, as a "done" signal? They're just an AC relay designed
> such that the coil cannot hold the armature between cycles - so it just
> buzzes like mad to alert you to the status of yr Pizza rolls. =P
> 
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:46 AM, David Collins <davidkcolli...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the
>> operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the
>> keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load
>> up the mechanism and stall it.
>> 
>> It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that
>> will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement.
>> 
>> You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to
>> be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time.
>> 
>> The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start
>> cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to
>> need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran
>> ok.
>> 
>> If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a
>> bad or missing start cap may be your issue.
>> 
>> David Collins
>> HP Computer Museum
>> 
>>> On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I missed those somehow.. thank you.  Got a lot to learn with this beast!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Samsung device
>>> 
>>>  Original message 
>>> From: couryho...@aol.com
>>> Date: 2016-10-13  10:30 PM  (GMT-08:00)
>>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org, vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
>>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>>> 
>>> 
>>> did  you  get the  links  we  sent you  over
>>> on the greenkeys  list  for  sources on 33 manuals and paperwork
>>> we  sent you?  We did not get an acknowledgment.  thanks
>>> Ed#  www.smecc.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>>> vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net writes:
>>> The
>>> buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a
>>> plastic
>>> tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn
>>> it by
>>> hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms
>>> working.
>>> 
>>> It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a
>>> 'reset'.  But
>>> yeah.. not today.
>>> 
>>> -Original
>>> Message-
>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Paul Koning
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM
>>> To: General
>>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>>> Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H
>>> <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
&

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[drlegendre .]

" I'm assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a
little black box connected to it.
I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack
from the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a
telegraph."

The start/run caps can be tubular, rectangular or 'bathtub' shaped. Again,
this is just generic advice and I can't say which shape(s) were used by TTY
Corp.

As for the one clack vs. telegraph-like clacks, that sounds an awful lot
like a relay or solenoid that sometimes acts OK, and other times, sits
there fluttering as it lacks sufficient current to pull-in or hold the
relay armature. Bad filter caps in a DC supply (to the solenoid coil..) is
classic for this.

Ever seen a one of the cheap, obnoxious 120 AC buzzers they used in old
stoves and so on, as a "done" signal? They're just an AC relay designed
such that the coil cannot hold the armature between cycles - so it just
buzzes like mad to alert you to the status of yr Pizza rolls. =P

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:46 AM, David Collins <davidkcolli...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> You might want to try moving the keyboard forward and away from the
> operating lever that connects to it at the back right corner of the
> keyboard. If the keyboard is pushed too far back on that lever it can load
> up the mechanism and stall it.
>
> It will need to be re-aligned to get the keyboard working again but that
> will need to be done anyway - it's pretty sensitive to movement.
>
> You should be able to turn the mechanism by hand but it also may need to
> be loosened up if it hasn't been used for a long time.
>
> The 33 I restored blew fuses initially and I thought it had a bad start
> cap. Turns out the start cap had been removed and my unit doesn't seem to
> need it. Once I rotated it a few times and put grease here and there it ran
> ok.
>
> If you can get it to work by turning it by hand while it's buzzing then a
> bad or missing start cap may be your issue.
>
> David Collins
> HP Computer Museum
>
> > On 14 Oct. 2016, at 4:56 pm, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I missed those somehow.. thank you.  Got a lot to learn with this beast!
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Samsung device
> >
> >  Original message --------
> > From: couryho...@aol.com
> > Date: 2016-10-13  10:30 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org, vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net
> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
> >
> >
> > did  you  get the  links  we  sent you  over
> > on the greenkeys  list  for  sources on 33 manuals and paperwork
> > we  sent you?  We did not get an acknowledgment.  thanks
> > Ed#  www.smecc.org
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> > vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net writes:
> > The
> >  buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a
> >  plastic
> > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn
> >  it by
> > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms
> >  working.
> >
> > It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a
> >  'reset'.  But
> > yeah.. not today.
> >
> > -Original
> >  Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf
> >  Of Paul Koning
> > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM
> > To: General
> >  Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> >  <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing
> >
> >
> >>
> >  On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H
> >  <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Posting
> >  around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right
> >>
> >  direction.  I tried greenkeys but no response.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >> I have an ASR 33 I got.  When I plug it in on Line mode there is
> >  a
> >> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else.  If I put
> >  it to
> >> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A
> >  fuse
> >> on the back left side of the machine blows.  It's like
> >  something's
> >> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down.
> >  Wondering if there's
> >> any Model 33 experienced guys out there.
> >  :)
> >>
> >
> > Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the
> >  motor is stalled
> > and you're getting overcurrent.  Try turning the
> >  motor by hand to confirm.
> >
> >
> > paul
> >
>

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

Yeah I'm sure we must have bad cap(s) here.  I think pretty much everything is 
original on this thing.  I've no idea how old it is.
I'll have to read through the manuals and figure out where the cap is.  I'm 
assuming it must be round.. although directly under the fuse is a little black 
box connected to it.  
I note when I plug it in on Line sometimes there's a single metallic clack from 
the PSU area and sometimes it's multiple..lioe someone's operating a telegraph.
I was rotating the motor and seeing how things work (hard to believe it doesn't 
just fly apart given how intricate it is).  I was able to push keys.. however 
now I have the top row locked down and the keyboard cover won't fit back on.. 
heh.  Hoping I'm not breaking things as I go.




Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: "drlegendre ." <drlegen...@gmail.com> 
Date: 2016-10-13  10:17 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing 

Tony's suggestion is the best at this point - look for issues with the
motor start and/or run caps. A shorted (or open..) cap can certainly cause
this issue. Shorted and it draws excess current in the cap, open and it may
prevent motor starting / running which likewise draws excess (stall)
current, but in the motor windings.

Also, it shouldn't be too hard to isolate the motor assy. itself from the
rest of the circuit - lift the correct lead(s) from the AC power
distribution system. It may be much easier if you can deal with the motor /
cap assy. as a single entity, rather than within the rest of the complexity.

This is just generic advice from a guy who's never fixed a 33. But assuming
yours has the standard AC synchronous motor, it should all apply. Motors
only draw excess current for a very few reasons - overload / stall, shorted
windings, bad start / run caps and possibly associated start / run relays.



On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:34 PM, tony duell <a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> > The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a
> plastic
> > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by
> > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working.
>
> Should the motor be running in the 'Off' positon of the switch, though?
>
> If the motor is buzzing and taking a high current (which blows the fuse),
> what about the motor run capacitor (the one on the mechanism chassis
> itself, wired to the motor)? Maybe it has failed.
>
> -tony
>

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

I missed those somehow.. thank you.  Got a lot to learn with this beast!


Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: couryho...@aol.com 
Date: 2016-10-13  10:30 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org, vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net 
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing 


did  you  get the  links  we  sent you  over 
on the greenkeys  list  for  sources on 33 manuals and paperwork 
we  sent you?  We did not get an acknowledgment.  thanks  
Ed#  www.smecc.org 
 

In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, 
vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net writes:
The 
  buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a 
  plastic
tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn 
  it by
hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms 
  working.

It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a 
  'reset'.  But
yeah.. not today.

-Original 
  Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf 
  Of Paul Koning
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM
To: General 
  Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
  <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing


> 
  On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H 
  <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:
> 
> Posting 
  around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right 
> 
  direction.  I tried greenkeys but no response.
> 
> 
> 
  
> I have an ASR 33 I got.  When I plug it in on Line mode there is 
  a 
> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else.  If I put 
  it to 
> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A 
  fuse 
> on the back left side of the machine blows.  It's like 
  something's 
> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down.  
  Wondering if there's 
> any Model 33 experienced guys out there. 
  :)
> 

Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the 
  motor is stalled
and you're getting overcurrent.  Try turning the 
  motor by hand to confirm.

    
paul

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[COURYHOUSE]

did  you  get the  links  we  sent you  over  on the greenkeys  list  for  
sources on 33 manuals and paperwork  we  sent you?  We did not get an 
acknowledgment.  thanks   Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 10/13/2016 4:37:20 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net writes:

The  buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a  plastic
tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn  it by
hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms  working.

It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a  'reset'.  But
yeah.. not today.

-Original  Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf  Of Paul 
Koning
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM
To: General  Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts  
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing


>  On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H  
<vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:
> 
> Posting  around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right 
>  direction.  I tried greenkeys but no response.
> 
> 
>  
> I have an ASR 33 I got.  When I plug it in on Line mode there is  a 
> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else.  If I put  it to 
> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A  fuse 
> on the back left side of the machine blows.  It's like  something's 
> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down.   Wondering if there's 
> any Model 33 experienced guys out there.  :)
> 

Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the  motor is stalled
and you're getting overcurrent.  Try turning the  motor by hand to confirm.

paul

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[drlegendre .]

Tony's suggestion is the best at this point - look for issues with the
motor start and/or run caps. A shorted (or open..) cap can certainly cause
this issue. Shorted and it draws excess current in the cap, open and it may
prevent motor starting / running which likewise draws excess (stall)
current, but in the motor windings.

Also, it shouldn't be too hard to isolate the motor assy. itself from the
rest of the circuit - lift the correct lead(s) from the AC power
distribution system. It may be much easier if you can deal with the motor /
cap assy. as a single entity, rather than within the rest of the complexity.

This is just generic advice from a guy who's never fixed a 33. But assuming
yours has the standard AC synchronous motor, it should all apply. Motors
only draw excess current for a very few reasons - overload / stall, shorted
windings, bad start / run caps and possibly associated start / run relays.



On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:34 PM, tony duell 
wrote:

>
> > The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a
> plastic
> > tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by
> > hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working.
>
> Should the motor be running in the 'Off' positon of the switch, though?
>
> If the motor is buzzing and taking a high current (which blows the fuse),
> what about the motor run capacitor (the one on the mechanism chassis
> itself, wired to the motor)? Maybe it has failed.
>
> -tony
>

RE: ASR 33 buzzing

[Brad H]

The buzzing definitely seems to be coming from the motor.  I put a plastic
tool to the casing and could feel it vibrating. However, I can turn it by
hand (clockwise) and see all the gears and striker mechanisms working.

It did manage to work briefly yesterday.. it did kind of a 'reset'.  But
yeah.. not today.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:28 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ASR 33 buzzing


> On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:
> 
> Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right 
> direction.  I tried greenkeys but no response.
> 
> 
> 
> I have an ASR 33 I got.  When I plug it in on Line mode there is a 
> clicking in the power supply area and nothing else.  If I put it to 
> Off or Local, there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse 
> on the back left side of the machine blows.  It's like something's 
> stuck but the noise is kind of hard to pin down.  Wondering if there's 
> any Model 33 experienced guys out there. :)
> 

Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled
and you're getting overcurrent.  Try turning the motor by hand to confirm.

paul

Re: ASR 33 buzzing

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 13, 2016, at 7:14 PM, Brad H  
> wrote:
> 
> Posting around hoping somebody might be able to point me in the right
> direction.  I tried greenkeys but no response.
> 
> 
> 
> I have an ASR 33 I got.  When I plug it in on Line mode there is a clicking
> in the power supply area and nothing else.  If I put it to Off or Local,
> there is a loud buzzing sound and eventually a 2A fuse on the back left side
> of the machine blows.  It's like something's stuck but the noise is kind of
> hard to pin down.  Wondering if there's any Model 33 experienced guys out
> there. :)
> 

Given the blown fuse I'd suspect a stuck mechanism, so the motor is stalled and 
you're getting overcurrent.  Try turning the motor by hand to confirm.

paul