[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch- Hintz - English guitar(guittar)
Andrew Rutherford wrote: Here's the quote from Hintz, from the Public Advertiser, Mar 17, 1766: that he has, after many Years Study and Application in endeavouring to bring this favourite Instrument the Guittar (being the first Inventor) still to a greater perfection in regard to tuning and keeping the same in Tune, which has always been a principal Defect as well as inconvenient, has now found out, on a Principal entirely new, several Methods, whereby it is much easier and exacter tuned, and also remains much longer in Tune than by any Method hitherto known.^53 I fished this out of Lanie Graf's article. He's talking about his new tuning machine but doesn't explain how it works. ( People have noted that 1766 seems rather late to be inventing a tuning machine for the guittar; that Preston had already been there. Do we know that for certain?) Anyway, he throws in parenthetically that he was it's first inventor It's interesting that ' a principal defect' is that it's hard to get (and keep) these things (EGs) in tune. I'd certainly agree! Some instruction books just offer a tuning fork method (and go on to say that nothing could be easier). Your quote suggests that keeping EGs in tune is a problem too whereas it's usually trotted out that wire-strung instruments easily keep their tuning. (I think this is partly true only.) Why would 1766 be late for a tuning machine? The EG was new in the 1750s. Tuning mechanisms are a completely new invention. It's a generalisation but weren't all plucked instruments tuned by pegs until the EG (emerging in the 1750s)? Stuart On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Andrew Rutherford wrote: Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker. You can find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page. By the way, Hintz claimed to have invented the English guitar. I think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when he moved to England... andy r Andy What is the reference for the claim by Hintz, that he invented the English guitar? And what date? I think the chordal tuning may well pre-date the 1750s. But definitely something happened in Britain the 1750s.Well lots of things happened then - but in the world of citterns. Several contemporary accounts describe the (English) guitar/guittar as new or newly introduced, and, as far as I know, no instruments and no publications date from before the 1750s. And the typical (English) guitar/guittar has a chordal tuning, on six courses of wire strings with the top four courses paired and the bottom two, single. As far as I know, no cittern with that tuning and stringing arrangement exists before the 1750s. And the instrument tended to be called a guitar/guittar and the music is not in tablature. I've tended to suppose that the immediate origin is a four-course instrument - four pairs of strings, tuned chordally, gceg, probably German, probably played with the fingers, not a plectrum.And then someone in Britain, probably in London, added the two single basses and somehow started a huge fashion for the instrument among the well-off. So that many, many instruments were made and lots and lots of music published for the next 20-30+ years. Maybe Hintz was the man! Maybe he thought of the idea of an elegant but simple instrument for well-off amateurs. He added two single basses to extend the range of notes of C major. He discarded the tablature concept and just had almost everything in C major. Hintz made instruments, he published some music and, I can't remember, but perhaps he was a publisher of music too. But he (or whoever it was) must have had very good connections for the fashion to take off so well amongst the more well-to-do. Hintz also published some hymn tunes. I wrote out a few of them ages ago. They are quite unlike most EG music, three-part block chords, rather than running single lines. But they're not like the Moravian choralbuch either. Stuart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date: 08/19/09 18:06:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC). This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was indeed originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut (Saxony) in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary hub. Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late 17thC, then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd probably have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless the mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that is through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been known in Saxony. What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which is, of course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers. And here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum. Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the Moravian church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about this? I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link. Martyn )--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM Dear folks, Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship. There are references to people playing citterns in various other settings, such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what appear to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a real Moravian!) By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were particularly important. The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page, I think. And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs). It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength. andy r On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig [3]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: [4]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch- missing pages?
Dear Andrew, Further to this, I see two pages with music are missing: 1. That containing Chorales 32 - 35 (fol 8v?) 2. Containing polonaises 9 - 10 (fol 17?) I see they're mentioned in the MS description which you also kindly copied. Martyn --- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM Dear folks, Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship. There are references to people playing citterns in various other settings, such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what appear to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a real Moravian!) By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were particularly important. The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page, I think. And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs). It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength. andy r On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig [3]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: [4]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1][5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig [2][6]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: [3][7]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [some music]
I'm assuming that the sentence in the intro to Moravian Choralbuch, here: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives refers to the music notation, not attempts - puny amateur attempts - to play a few of these pieces. It doesn't really look to me that the pieces are arranged in order of difficulty. I've tried playing through them, not unfortunately on a cittern, but on a very basic guitar (in fact a Russian guitar with the usual very close string spacings). Perhaps, as has been suggested, these chorales are entirely functional - for accompanying singing - and not ever for purely instrumental performance. The fermata sign is used extensively but when I played the pieces, pausing a bit more (perhaps I'm misunderstanding this?), the music sounded wrong. With a singer - or singers - long pauses would work fine - as I think happens in hymns. And the singer or singers would know the melody and the words... over a lifetime. But it's a shame to have a MS of music and not actually try and play some of it. The pieces are quite short - presumably they have many verses? Now hymn settings with chords on every beat are fine on a keyboard, but not so easy on a fretboard and, I think, chorale settings like this aren't common on plucked instruments. In that respect they are quite hard to play and sound a bit clunky. But that could be just me! I've got four melodies. Firstly I've played them with the tuning GCEgbe. But this is on a guitar with a string length of 65cms. In cittern terms, that would be a big instrument? And it makes some of stretches quite challenging. The close position, low position A minor chords sound impressive. Andy mentioned a possible string length of 50cms so I put on a capo at the third fret giving a string length of about 54cms. So here are four of the chorales, first at modern GCEgbe pitch http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 and here, at the higher pitch http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 and finally a Minuet from the end of the book: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 with authentic 18th century plane in the background. Some of these chorales sound sort of familiar and I think there is a long tradition in Germany of sturdy chorale type tunes. I may well be misinterpreting the music and I don't mind having this pointed out! If any offence is taken, I'll remove the files. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker. You can find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page. By the way, Hintz claimed to have invented the English guitar. I think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when he moved to England... andy r On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC). This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was indeed originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut (Saxony) in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary hub. Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late 17thC, then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd probably have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless the mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that is through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been known in Saxony. What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which is, of course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers. And here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum. Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the Moravian church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about this? I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link. Martyn )--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford [2]lutewo...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andrew Rutherford [3]lutewo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM Dear folks, Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship. There are references to people playing citterns in various other settings, such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what appear to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a real Moravian!) By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were particularly important. The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page, I think. And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs). It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength. andy r On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [some music]
Bravo! I agree about the order of difficulty business. That came from somebody's doctoral thesis that briefly mentioned this MS... andy r On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: I'm assuming that the sentence in the intro to Moravian Choralbuch, here: [2]http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives refers to the music notation, not attempts - puny amateur attempts - to play a few of these pieces. It doesn't really look to me that the pieces are arranged in order of difficulty. I've tried playing through them, not unfortunately on a cittern, but on a very basic guitar (in fact a Russian guitar with the usual very close string spacings). Perhaps, as has been suggested, these chorales are entirely functional - for accompanying singing - and not ever for purely instrumental performance. The fermata sign is used extensively but when I played the pieces, pausing a bit more (perhaps I'm misunderstanding this?), the music sounded wrong. With a singer - or singers - long pauses would work fine - as I think happens in hymns. And the singer or singers would know the melody and the words... over a lifetime. But it's a shame to have a MS of music and not actually try and play some of it. The pieces are quite short - presumably they have many verses? Now hymn settings with chords on every beat are fine on a keyboard, but not so easy on a fretboard and, I think, chorale settings like this aren't common on plucked instruments. In that respect they are quite hard to play and sound a bit clunky. But that could be just me! I've got four melodies. Firstly I've played them with the tuning GCEgbe. But this is on a guitar with a string length of 65cms. In cittern terms, that would be a big instrument? And it makes some of stretches quite challenging. The close position, low position A minor chords sound impressive. Andy mentioned a possible string length of 50cms so I put on a capo at the third fret giving a string length of about 54cms. So here are four of the chorales, first at modern GCEgbe pitch [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 [4]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 [5]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 [6]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 and here, at the higher pitch [7]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 [8]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 [9]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 [10]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 and finally a Minuet from the end of the book: [11]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 with authentic 18th century plane in the background. Some of these chorales sound sort of familiar and I think there is a long tradition in Germany of sturdy chorale type tunes. I may well be misinterpreting the music and I don't mind having this pointed out! If any offence is taken, I'll remove the files. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 4. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 5. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 6. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 7. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 8. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 9. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 10. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 11. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: [3]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, [1][4]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. [2][5]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): [3][6]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
In the Storm Ms. you will see the 11 or || (two vertical strokes) in some of the pieces. The #2 Menuet, for example, uses that symbol in the second section. -- R On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn I haven't seen many mandora tablatures but I agree that this Moravian tablature looks very similar. Couldn't that be just the tablature style of the time and place - whatever the instrument? Does mandora tablature use the little ornament thing that looks like a tiny '11'? I think evidence for the popularity of the cittern in central Europe is sparse. Some instruments (including arch-citterns) survive and a few tablatures. The 'waldzithern' in Germany and Switzerland didn't take off until after 1800. I can't remember why the Moravian tablature is attributed to the cittern. Andrew will remind us. But the tuning (or the intervals) for the Moravian tablature is for a known tuning for the cithrinchen/bell cittern. It's probably not relevant but Rocky Mjos produced an edition of Norwegian cittern pieces for this tuning from the 1790s. And there is a facsimile of one page of the tablature on page 6. *http://tinyurl.com/mbf5ex * --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: [3]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, [1][4]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Stuart Walsh wrote: I haven't seen many mandora tablatures but I agree that this Moravian tablature looks very similar. Couldn't that be just the tablature style of the time and place - whatever the instrument? Probably. I can't see any reason why tablature notation style would differ between different instruments really. I can't remember why the Moravian tablature is attributed to the cittern. Andrew will remind us. I'm neither Andrew nor Andrew but I have kept the post where Andrew R. first brught up the Moravian ms. He said: There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern. In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument the music was itnended for. But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning. But the tuning (or the intervals) for the Moravian tablature is for a known tuning for the cithrinchen/bell cittern. It's probably not relevant but Rocky Mjos produced an edition of Norwegian cittern pieces for this tuning from the 1790s. As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 40622 and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book Gründlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for an other instrument than a cittern. So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of course, we still don't have absolute proof. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Frank Nordberg wrote: I have kept the post where Andrew R. first brught up the Moravian ms. He said: There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern. In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument the music was itnended for. But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning. I'm not joined up to this ning thing - and so I'm in the position of anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and, presumably in the painting) a bell cittern? Is it tiny - or large - like Bellman's? And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century? As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 40622 and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book Gründlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for an other instrument than a cittern. That's a very interesting summary. I think James Tyler (or Donald Gill?) has somewhere mentioned these Hamburger cithrinchen MSS. And described the music as simple, single line, plectrum stuff? Definitely not writing in parts, like the Moravian chorales. (The bell cittern was, I think, popular in Britain in the 17th century. Didn't Talbot write about it?) The Moravian tablatures don't indicate pitch so I don't know how Andrew has concluded that the tuning is GCEgbe. So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of course, we still don't have absolute proof. 'Absolute proof' sounds just a bit too tricky, but reasonable conjecture might be more attainable. The evidence, then, is the tuning - and that only from two old Hamburger cithrinchen MSS (for a small instrument, perhaps played in a rather different way). And some iconography that only might be relevant.So maybe the tablature really is for the more popular mandora. But then again there's the Bunsold MS of chorales for cittern - but in a chordal tuning not the 'maj7 'tuning. Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point. Curious. Stuart Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 06:08:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm not joined up to this ning thing I can undrstand that. I too prefer the maillist. ;-) - and so I'm in the position of anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and, presumably in the painting) a bell cittern? Woops! Seems the photos aren't there anymore. At least I can't find 'em. The instrument in the painting was a bell cittern and I'm pretty sure the one preserved in the Moravian museum was too. Is it tiny - or large - like Bellman's? Ah, that reminds me! I never got the dimensions of Bellman's cittern from the Stockholm museum. Perhaps I should contact them again. (The portrait of Bellman turnsout to be worthless in this respect. It was quite common for painters at that time to scale the size of objects up or down to fit the composition of the painting so the fact that it looks so huge in the picture doesn't really mean anything.) And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century? I got the three German sources I listed from studia-instrumentorum.de and I can only quote what dr. Michel says at that site. The oldest of the two manuscripts are dated 1664, the other c. 1700 while Vockerodt's reference is - as mentioned - 1718. So we're talking late 17th and early 18th century here. Only Vockerodt, the latest of the three sources, mentions open chord tunings as an alternative. 'Absolute proof' sounds just a bit too tricky, You're right. The Storm ms. and the German sources all clearly state they're about citterns but apparently the Moravian ms. is not that helpful. The only way to determine beyond any doubt what instrument the music was intended for, would be to connect it historically to one specific instrument and that's easier said than done. So maybe the tablature really is for the more popular mandora. That's still a possibility. However, the evidence connecting it to the cittern may be strong or weak, but at the moment it's definitely far stronger than any connection we have to the mandora. Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point. That's true. But perhaps the North Gernab maj7 tuning was developed especially to make multipart playing easier? Frank To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch (chorales and hymns)
Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew I'm playing through the pieces, in the right tuning, but on a guitar. I've got used to the tuning a bit more and I'm not pausing on the fermata, so the line of the music is clearer (for me). At first I thought that the music might be accompaniments but they're clearly hymn tunes (apart from the minuets and polonaises at the end). A lot of them sound almost familiar (but I haven't heard any hymns in decades), some sound like carols and number 23 is 'In dulci jubilo'. They're interesting to play - though you wouldn't want to play many at a time, unless for devotional purposes. Presumably the player sang along? I wonder if the MS is the work of a person producing arrangements for his/her own interest or if the cittern could have been used for a small number of people to sing along with? I'm sure I've seen images from (roughly) the time of rather severe looking people playing citterns and it's interesting to speculate whether this was music they might have played. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/14/09 06:10:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. [2]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - [5]www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/15/09 06:10:00 -- References 1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ 2. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.avg.com/
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/15/09 06:10:00
