Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu
On 12/18/2012 12:27 PM, MJ Ray wrote:
Is there clarity that deliberately-discriminatory groups should have
no platform in code4lib?
If what you mean is if everyone agrees with you that a group created for
women in tech is bad, then, no, pretty much
Spot on, totally agree :)
Michele
-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Bess
Sadler
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:24 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
...Having a policy
On 12/18/12 7:14 PM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote:
Really? I haven't heard of them or seen
them. Am I just really unobservant? Or am I seeing things but not
realizing they are offensive?
I can't speak for anyone else. I know that I've been in (non-code4lib)
situations where I *was*
] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
...Is this a good idea, or just a disaster trainwreck lying in wait? If
it's a good idea, we could easily set up a wiki page where people can
easily anonymously describe incidents (again, what I'm going for is NOT
calling specific people out, but just giving us
Steve Marks steve.ma...@utoronto.ca
This false equivalency gets bandied around quite a lot in academic
circles (maybe elsewhere, but I lead a sheltered life). Let me assure
you that there is a significant difference between what goes on in a
standard pat leave and what goes on in a standard
Hi MJ All,
On 12/18/2012 4:42 AM, MJ Ray wrote:
I sort of both do and don't. I do appreciate that people are making
the effort, but I do worry that other minorities are collatoral damage
of some vociferous support for this larger-minority single-issue
group, that few seem to be supporting a
Tim Donohue tdono...@duraspace.org
However, I think some/many are taking offense to the implication that
'libtechwomen' is discriminatory or prejudice against men or minority
groups just because its name includes women. [...]
To call a group discriminatory just because they initially planned
On 12/18/2012 12:27 PM, MJ Ray wrote:
Is there clarity that deliberately-discriminatory groups should have
no platform in code4lib?
If what you mean is if everyone agrees with you that a group created for
women in tech is bad, then, no, pretty much nobody else here agrees with
you.
I am
On 12/18/12 7:51 AM, Tim Donohue wrote:
It's not trying to block other minority issues from being discussed,
or turn away other minority groups or even majority groups (men).
I want to thank everyone for being so thoughtful in this discussion. I
do, however, want to make one factual point:
.
Steve McDonald
steve.mcdon...@tufts.edu
-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
MJ Ray
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:28 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt
Salvete!
because they can't find an SO are outliers. C4l is a tech event. Do women
really get treated that shabbily there?
I'm guessing this is a yes, since several brave folks have indicated it. It
doesn't mean that *you* are an offender, but it's clearly happening, or at
least known
So far some brave folks have indeed indicated that, but without
specifying any particular incidents.
It seems to me it might be helpful if the actual incidents were related
in some anonymous way (perhaps anonymous both to reporter and to
'offenders' involved)... because if the rest of us knew
[rochk...@jhu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:14 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
...Is this a good idea, or just a disaster trainwreck lying in wait? If
it's a good idea, we could easily set up a wiki page where people can
easily
] on behalf of Jonathan
Rochkind [rochk...@jhu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:14 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
...Is this a good idea, or just a disaster trainwreck lying in wait? If
it's a good idea, we could easily set up
.
Michele
From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of
Jonathan Rochkind [rochk...@jhu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:14 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
in.
-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
MJ Ray
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:26 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Bess Sadler bess.sad
: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Bess Sadler bess.sad...@gmail.com
wrote:
There have been some contradictory statements made about
#libtechwomen because it was an emerging idea, and like code4lib,
there is no formal power structure or authority
Tim Donohue tdono...@duraspace.org
Not trying to keep this thread going on forever. But, I do want to say
that, based on the discussion thus far, I do believe that MJ's opinion
is in the minority. At least, from what I've heard, this seems to be the
case.
Personally, I feel that it's
Women have different issues than other groups - even stuff like when you
have a kid and take a year off, how do you keep up on your mad
programming skillz? Or program with pregnancy-brain?
I'll grant you pregnancy-brain is probably only found in women, but
some men take a year (or more) off to
Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of MJ Ray
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:26 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Bess Sadler bess.sad...@gmail.com wrote
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Bess Sadler bess.sad...@gmail.com wrote:
There have been some contradictory statements made about
#libtechwomen because it was an emerging idea, and like code4lib,
there is no formal power structure or authority. There is no
requirement that one be female
Wilhelmina Randtke rand...@gmail.com
MJ Ray,
OK, ctrl+F did not work, because the email said for just but you said
just for. Actually, no two words in your quote were in sequence in the
email you tried to quote. So much for ctrl+F.
I don't much like this attempt to Fisk me over putting a
MJ Ray,
OK, ctrl+F did not work, because the email said for just but you said
just for. Actually, no two words in your quote were in sequence in the
email you tried to quote. So much for ctrl+F.
Casual discrimination against women and disabled doesn't mean you get a
pass to say none of this
I really don't see how setting up a new IRC channel (or tumblr, or any other
forum) to encourage and promote the inclusion of women is discriminatory. You
keep on using that term, and accusing others of prejudice, but you have shown
no proof.
-Esme
--
Esme Cowles escow...@ucsd.edu
They
There have been some contradictory statements made about #libtechwomen because
it was an emerging idea, and like code4lib, there is no formal power structure
or authority. There is no requirement that one be female to participate, indeed
many of the people involved explicitly reject the notion
Are there folks out there who think that you can only be in one IRC
room at a time? If I want to be in the #190cmtall room, nobody in
#code4lib would know, nor would it be any of their business. Are there
people here who really feel threatened by this?
Cary
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Bess
This is the framing that I resonate with as well.
I really appreciate all the conversations as of late on code4lib and I find
that the poll on gender and community was incredibly illuminating. I'm
currently reading 'Unlocking the clubhouse' and there are large swaths
of relevant passages that
May I suggest some comments don't need a response because (1) they are intended
facetiously and/or (2) they are trolling. In either case, it's best to take
the high ground and let them pass into oblivion, especially in highly charged
discussions.
Carol
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Mita
I agree with Dan.
I am all for folks doing what they are called to do. I simply hope
that those efforts won't come at the expense of this group, because
code4lib, imperfect as it may be, is a wonderful resource.
Cary
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Dan Chudnov daniel.chud...@gmail.com wrote:
Joshua, I don't think there is anything I can really add to what you've, in
my mind, summed up perfectly.
Six years ago, after a regrettable incident of insensitivity that I was
directly involved in [1], we had a similar period of reflection and
discussion about the culture we wanted to foster
Bohyun --
Thanks for taking a risk and posting your question. open_discussion++
I don't have a good answer for you. I think there is common agreement that
ways are needed to bring new people into the Code4Lib community. I don't have
a good sense as to whether generalized
Hi Bohyun,
Thank you so much for raising this again. I'm still interested in such a group.
I found the terminology separate but equal (that some on this list chose to
use as a reason not to do this) offensive; it was not at all the spirit that
I'd originally proposed and no one had suggested
Code4lib appears to have no rules about who can and cannot form a group.
Therefore, if there are some folks who want a group, they should create
that group. If it's successful, it's successful. If not, it'll fade away
like so many start-up groups.
I'm astonished at the resistance to the
kcoyle++
Code4lib appears to have no rules about who can and cannot form a group.
Therefore, if there are some folks who want a group, they should create
that group.
Joe Montibello, MLIS
Library Systems Manager
Dartmouth College Library
603.646.9394
joseph.montibe...@dartmouth.edu
On
of Karen Coyle
[li...@kcoyle.net]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:50 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
Code4lib appears to have no rules about who can and cannot form a group.
Therefore, if there are some folks who want a group, they should
Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net
[...] If it's successful, it's successful. If not, it'll fade away
like so many start-up groups.
I'm astonished at the resistance to the formation of a group on the part
of people who also insist that there are no rules about forming groups.
I don't recall
Apparently I used offensive language in a post recently, despite
intentions otherwise. So: I am sorry that I used offensive language. I
will strive to choose my words more carefully next time.
All of the following is my opinion -- one opinion among thousands
(there are over 2,200 people on this
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
Code4lib appears to have no rules about who can and cannot form a group.
Therefore, if there are some folks who want a group, they should create
that group. If it's successful, it's successful. If not, it'll fade away
like so many start-up
On Dec 7, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Karen Coyle wrote:
Code4lib appears to have no rules about who can and cannot form a group.
Therefore, if there are some folks who want a group, they should create that
group. If it's successful, it's successful. If not, it'll fade away like so
many start-up
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Dan Chudnov daniel.chud...@gmail.com wrote:
A point of history:
Over the years several regional code4lib groups formed and some wanted to
have their own lists. When such suggestions have been made on this list,
those suggestions have often been resisted,
On Dec 7, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Dan Chudnov daniel.chud...@gmail.com wrote:
Over the years several regional code4lib groups formed and some wanted to
have their own lists. When such suggestions have been made on this list,
those suggestions have often been resisted, because of the success we
I'm all for people creating new social structures to move themselves
forward doing it however they see fit. The internet is a big place, and
there's room for more. In this case, though, I hope it will be an and
operation, not an exclusive or. I would be happy to hear that a new
group formed
The past week or so I've been struggling to understand the reason for the
strong opinions against a women's support group as a subbranch of code4lib
or as an external entity. One argument is the reverse discrimination
argument. I'm not sure how many have actually been making this argument
but it
: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of
Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:50 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Question abt the code4libwomen idea
Code4lib appears to have no rules about who can and cannot form a group
On Dec 7, 2012, at 12:59 PM, Joshua Gomez jngo...@gwu.edu wrote:
Others have mentioned they fear that a subgroup will only decrease the
diversity within code4lib by pulling women away from it and into the new
group. This was my initial concern as well, but when I look at other kinds
of women
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