Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Ben Burdette]

The iPhone killer, competitor, or comparisons you have been describing - to
me - should not be done against the neo.  
I happen to think that the neo is indeed an anti-iphone.  Unfortunately 
a lot of people confuse this position with the idea that the neo is an 
iPhone killer - something entirely different.  An iPhone killer would be 
a phone that takes on the iPhone in its target market - nontechnical 
style mongers - and surpasses it.  The neo is not that phone. 

An anti-iPhone, to my mind, is a phone that is open to one and all to 
develop for it.  A phone without barriers to its use, without corporate 
controls and without toll gates.  That's what makes the neo special, not 
its touchscreen, its round shape, its GPS even. 

The problem is that people confuse the anti-iPhone and iPhone-killer 
concepts so much.  This subtle distinction is lost in the rush to 
blogging sensationalism.  So it this light maybe the iPhone should be 
left out of the rhetoric entirely, when possible.  Let's not forget that 
the neo is also the anti-razr, anti-ming, anti-nokia.  Its the 
anti-samsung, anti-blackberry.  In fact, whatever phone you have, its 
anti-that-too. 

The only exception would be maybe the greenphone, only if i remember 
correctly that requires some extra payment to become a developer.  So I 
guess the neo is the anti-greenphone as well. 




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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...meaningful comments...]

Thanks! I couldn't agree more. I want to stay out of this thread, but
if I were to comment, I couldn't have said it better than you.

-- 
- Michael Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://openmoko.org/

Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[polz]

On Friday 07 September 2007 19:25:17 Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue of
> > nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.
>
> I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities.
>
... And have a screen that's easily readable. even in the sun
and working power management
and an easily accessible SD slot
and stable software.

The Neo 1973 at the moment has none of these things.
IMHO a much better target market would be vertical applications. With the base 
libraries under LGPL, various software vendors are likely to prefer OpenMoko 
to old, unsupported WindowsCE crap some of them have to put up with now. In 
this respect, the GTA02 might yet become a great success - not as huge as the 
iPhone, but good enough for GTA03 or even 04 to be able to take on the mighty 
Apple.

Oh, and the community needs to remain as enthusiastic and helpful as it is 
now. Which I beleive is likely.


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Nkoli]

On 9/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> The iPhone killer, competitor, or comparisons you have been describing -
> to
> me - should not be done against the neo.  The iPhone killer will be a
> later
> model OpenMoko phone brought out after much custom development and
> innovative ideas are done against the Neo1973.  The basic production
> Neo1973 is what will begin the end of the iPhone - and all other phones -
> but it is not going to be released as "the one" (pun!) ready to do it.  It
> will take some time and community innovation for the neo to be a "killer
> phone".



It's truly unfortunate, but it is inevitable that any touchscreen phone
released in the post iphone market will be compared to the iphone. It will
be compared to the prada and the HTC touch to name but a few. The media can
(again, unfortunately) make or break a product and once a meme is born, it's
hard to get rid of. The neo has been tagged the anti iphone. It has gotten a
lot of hype without launching a single official ad. Whether it was
originally intended to be a geek phone doesn't matter. Things have gotten a
little bit out of hand and people all over (geeks and non geeks) are excited
for the product. It has essentially become the little grassroots project
that could.

If it doesn't live up to the hype, the media will surely tear it to pieces
before it even hits the ground. Who knows what will happen to future
products from openmoko then? With the iphone price cut, the neo just lost
the 'cheaper alternative' tag. Being unlocked doesn't make the neo special -
you can buy any phone unlocked and unfettered off the net. Having a
community of developers doesn't make it special either - you can get
thousands of user developed (ie non commercial) software for all (real)
smart phones. What makes the neo special is how loose a collar neo owners
have in comparison to other unlocked smart phones.

Come October or November, I can see blogs and other news media checking off
all these points as reasons to bypass the neo. The question becomes whether
the newly created openmoko team can survive if only a few thousand phones
are sold. Maybe this is the volume they expected to sell from the get go. I
wouldn't know. If that's the case, then none of this really matters since
they are guaranteed to sell that much at the least.
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Video decoding in GTA-02

[Mikko Rauhala]

There, remembered to change the subject line...

pe, 2007-09-07 kello 14:33 -0700, Ted Lemon kirjoitti:
> On Sep 7, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Raphael Jacquot wrote:
> >> - At least several hours of H.264 playback.
> > possibly doable but I don't believe the current hardware can handle it
> 
> The point here is that for the GTA02, if the video hardware supports  
> hardware playback of H.264, we need a driver that allows us to take  
> advantage of that.   You're right that it's a nonstarted on the  
> GTA01, but that's okay.

It doesn't. It does one of the simpler MPEG-4 profiles, don't recall the
details. (One of the S-Media models does H.264, but no VGA.)

Can't really feel much pain for that, personally.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Clinton Ebadi]

Marco Barreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 05:18:36PM +0100, thus spake David R. Newman:
>> Nkoli wrote:
>> > On 9/6/07, *Denis Parchenko* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>> 
>> > sold in the first 30 hrs than in the following month, but beyond that,
>> > $399 iphones are highly detrimental to the success of the Neo1973. 
>> 
>> But the Neo, even as a small-quantity development kit, only costs $300.
>> That's still less that $399. A mass-produced OpenMoko phone would cost
>> less (particularly if it was ready to use in the Chinese, Japanese and
>> Indian markets).
>
> Unfortunately, the $300 base/$450 advanced pricing scheme was a special
> discount for GTA01.  The announced price for GTA02 is $450 for Neo
> Base and $600 for Neo Advanced; see Sean's "New Oceans" email:
>   http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/006005.html
> or the Neo1973 wiki page:
>   http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973
>
> At that pricing, though, it will indeed have a tough time competing
> with the iPhone among anyone but the most committed free software
> geeks.

$300 for an iPhone with a two year contract, or $450 for a Neo1973
without any contract. One of these is a better value amortized over
time especially given that newer AT&T/Cingular rates are higher than
they used to be, and much higher than T-Mobile (in the US at least).

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Federico Lorenzi]

Wow, this thread has gone really off topic :) But I figure I'd add in my 2c.
A GSM Data call can carry up to 9.6kb/s. Using a good voice codec
like Speex, one can get voice still sounding decent at 2kb/s.
I don't really know much about the inner workings of GSM, but is there
anything stopping one Neo from establishing a data link with another
via CSD, then using netcat or something to simply pipe audio from the
microphone into speex and then into a command line blowfish / twofish
or whatever encryption you want, then on the other side do the same,
but in reverse.

I have actually done what I mentioned above
(Mic -> Speex -> Encrypt -> Comm -> Decrypt -> Speex -> Speaker)
on my computer using some simple python scripts, and it works fine.
The major issue IMO would be getting it from one point to another.

Cheers
Federico

PS) I probably don't know what I'm talking about, eat with a pinch of salt.

On 9/7/07, Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> pe, 2007-09-07 kello 13:35 -0700, Shawn Rutledge kirjoitti:
> > It's easy to think first of doing it over a data connection.  But I
> > can imagine more of a signal-processing approach.
>
> This has been hashed to death. Short of it: the GSM codec actively tries
> to throw away anything that doesn't sound like speech. This is not very
> analog encryption friendly, and we can't bypass the codec for voice
> calls since that's in the closed TI firmware.
>
> This is also a repeat, but for new people, I'll mention that
> cryptophone.de does a proprietary encryption-capable GSM phone (through
> GSM data); though the protocol is their own, they apparently have it
> documented, and welcome others to do compatible implementations. (Their
> source is also available, but for purely review and verification
> purposes; it's not free and anyone doing a reimplementation would be
> wise to avoid looking at it.) Thus for anyone interested in doing
> encrypted calls with the Neo, it would perhaps be worth considering
> using their ready-made protocol to leverage their installed base.
>
> I haven't reviewed their protocol though, nor am I highly qualified to
> do that. Also, there's the usual potential future issues with the
> protocol being controlled by a single firm; basically that's just
> something to consider for those who eventually get hacking on this.
> Sadly, it's too big a project for me.
>
> --
> Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
> Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>
>
>
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Re: Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Zoltan Farkas]

What  about patent crap?

http://news.com.com/8301-13579_3-9773982-37.html

--zoly






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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Ted Lemon]

On Sep 7, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Raphael Jacquot wrote:

- At least several hours of H.264 playback.

possibly doable but I don't believe the current hardware can handle it


The point here is that for the GTA02, if the video hardware supports  
hardware playback of H.264, we need a driver that allows us to take  
advantage of that.   You're right that it's a nonstarted on the  
GTA01, but that's okay.



- A good music app, ideally tied in to the Amazon/Universal store.


with the amount of DRM shit those morons are going to require,  
forget it

leave people put their own stuff on there. no silly iTunes crap


Actually Universal is dissing Apple by releasing non-DRM'd tunes  
through Amazon and not the iTMS, so there's actually some good non- 
DRM'd stuff that'll be available that way.   If it could be  
downloaded over the WiFi, that would be really neat, and something  
that no other phone is likely to offer.



- Leverage the GPS to do things the iPhone doesn't do.


that should be somehow tied with openstreetmap


There are a lot of wicked cool things you can do without OSM working,  
so I think focusing on OSM is just going to delay the things that are  
easy to do.   If it's done and available and easy, great, but it  
needn't be a gating factor in doing cool stuff with the GPS.



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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Josef Wolf]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 08:27:36PM +0200, Andreas Utterberg wrote:
> 
> What the v2 neo needs is a nice oi, the best would be if its possible to add
> compiz fusion, beryl effects to it. That would really boost the interest to
> the mass, just look at the development speed to the berylproject had, and
> the very big community around it in a very short amount of time.

Since you mention development: IMHO, it is essentially to make it as
easy as possible for interested developers to jump into the pool.

Last time I checked (I must admit, it was almost two months ago) you
needed to jump through several hoops to get running: first learn about
OE and its bitbake recipes, then there's the overlay tree.  When you
dive into OE, there come more dependencies, and they tear you further
into even more dependencies.  All the information is spread through
across the wiki.  I started searching for details, but along the
way I got lost.  I realized that it would take weeks to set up and
customize the build environment (I prefer to really _understand_
what I set up, not simply install and go).  I don't consider me to
be a beginner, since I work on embedded systems for almost two decades,
and linux (albeit, not embedded) is my main OS for about 15 years.

I'd rather concentrate on implementing something on the beast instead
of searching for days for information how to set up the build environment.

Coming back to your point above: I contradict your opinion.  Neo is _not_
about mainstream and it is defintely not targeted for people who would
buy an iphone.  Neo is about freedom.  People buy iphone for effects,
but people don't buy Neo for some compiz/beryl effects.

> Also important to get the device out for sale as soon as possible,
> the sooner the better,  that  would get more people involved because
> i think may is waiting on the v2 to jump on the train, im one of
> them :-). Better to get it out now with more bugs, then later with
> less bugs.

I'd contradict here, too.  Getting out early (even with serious bugs)
to developers (or people who count themselves as developers while not
beeing an official developer) is OK.  But before going to mass market,
some stabilization needs to be done.  We don't want hear "this device is
totally unusable" from the masses, do we?

IMHO, at the present time, the most importrant task is to make it for
interested people as easy as possible to jump into the game (this
includes easy installation/customization of build-environment).  Given
enough critical mass, more and more features (eventually compiz/beryl)
will be added to attract the masses.


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Mathew Davis]

Amen!

I couldn't have stated it better my self.  I don't like it when people say
oh no the I phone is going to squich the Neo1973. Me no phone can touch the
neo1973.  For me it is a revolution, that will change the way phone
industry.  For far to long the phone industry has been this big monster that
has taken away freedom from the get go.  And we just keep taking it lying
down.  If people are sick and tired of letting the phoen companies drive, or
I should say stifle, innovation then they will pick the neo1973.  The
Neo1973 is not going to compete with the iphone it is competing with the way
the phone industry treats it's customers.  I think that is worth any price.
Now having extra features, nice UI, and a good looking device it really nice
and I think could add a great deal of momentum to the project.  But this
whole the Neo1973 project is doomed I just don't like.  And all those people
saying that they will buy an iphone now because the price is so low, good
for you, I hope you buy a neo also because you will understand that it can
make the future better.



On 9/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> IMHO...
>
> I've been following the Neo1973 for months now, lurking, and tend to
> disagree with just about all comparisons I've read w/ the iPhone.  When
> someone references the iPhone I think "iPhone, I could care less".
>
> I think it's great that the Neo1973 is now getting some exposure, but I
> think it's a mistake to compare it to any other phone, iPhone or
> otherwise.
> At least from how I've been following it, it's not being designed to be
> the phone for the average cell phone user.  It's a phone for the geek, the
> hacker, the coder.  It's a phone to challenge all other phones.  The neo
> to
> me is more of a revolution than an iPhone killer or even competitor.  If
> the neo reaches even mediocre success I see big changes in the world of
> cell phones...
>
> The iPhone killer, competitor, or comparisons you have been describing -
> to
> me - should not be done against the neo.  The iPhone killer will be a
> later
> model OpenMoko phone brought out after much custom development and
> innovative ideas are done against the Neo1973.  The basic production
> Neo1973 is what will begin the end of the iPhone - and all other phones -
> but it is not going to be released as "the one" (pun!) ready to do it.  It
> will take some time and community innovation for the neo to be a "killer
> phone".
>
> It may even be a second or third model OpenMoko phone before it is the
> phone to end all phones.  It's starting out strong w/ wifi, gps,
> accelerometers, and other features but how much more dream hardware could
> be crammed into it? Just imagine...
>
> I can't wait for a neo so I can begin writing my own apps against all the
> open hardware.  I don't care if it not sexy in certain ways.  It's the
> beginning of a dream phone - a phone that you can hack up in any way you
> want.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Mikko Rauhala]

pe, 2007-09-07 kello 13:35 -0700, Shawn Rutledge kirjoitti:
> It's easy to think first of doing it over a data connection.  But I
> can imagine more of a signal-processing approach.

This has been hashed to death. Short of it: the GSM codec actively tries
to throw away anything that doesn't sound like speech. This is not very
analog encryption friendly, and we can't bypass the codec for voice
calls since that's in the closed TI firmware.

This is also a repeat, but for new people, I'll mention that
cryptophone.de does a proprietary encryption-capable GSM phone (through
GSM data); though the protocol is their own, they apparently have it
documented, and welcome others to do compatible implementations. (Their
source is also available, but for purely review and verification
purposes; it's not free and anyone doing a reimplementation would be
wise to avoid looking at it.) Thus for anyone interested in doing
encrypted calls with the Neo, it would perhaps be worth considering
using their ready-made protocol to leverage their installed base.

I haven't reviewed their protocol though, nor am I highly qualified to
do that. Also, there's the usual potential future issues with the
protocol being controlled by a single firm; basically that's just
something to consider for those who eventually get hacking on this.
Sadly, it's too big a project for me.

-- 
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Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[jjh]

IMHO... 

I've been following the Neo1973 for months now, lurking, and tend to
disagree with just about all comparisons I've read w/ the iPhone.  When
someone references the iPhone I think "iPhone, I could care less".  

I think it's great that the Neo1973 is now getting some exposure, but I
think it's a mistake to compare it to any other phone, iPhone or otherwise.
 At least from how I've been following it, it's not being designed to be
the phone for the average cell phone user.  It's a phone for the geek, the
hacker, the coder.  It's a phone to challenge all other phones.  The neo to
me is more of a revolution than an iPhone killer or even competitor.  If
the neo reaches even mediocre success I see big changes in the world of
cell phones... 

The iPhone killer, competitor, or comparisons you have been describing - to
me - should not be done against the neo.  The iPhone killer will be a later
model OpenMoko phone brought out after much custom development and
innovative ideas are done against the Neo1973.  The basic production
Neo1973 is what will begin the end of the iPhone - and all other phones -
but it is not going to be released as "the one" (pun!) ready to do it.  It
will take some time and community innovation for the neo to be a "killer
phone".  

It may even be a second or third model OpenMoko phone before it is the
phone to end all phones.  It's starting out strong w/ wifi, gps,
accelerometers, and other features but how much more dream hardware could
be crammed into it? Just imagine...

I can't wait for a neo so I can begin writing my own apps against all the
open hardware.  I don't care if it not sexy in certain ways.  It's the
beginning of a dream phone - a phone that you can hack up in any way you
want.  




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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Ian Stirling]

Shawn Rutledge wrote:

On 9/7/07, Raphael Jacquot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


it appear those things are so expensive that I couldn't find any price
for it. (searching for "secure cell phone" on google)
also, it appears that none of those things can talk to one another, each
doing it's little thing.
now, if we can have something similar to an STUIII phone, with public
keys and stuff (think either using gpg or ca-cert keys), we're on to
something that could become a standard.



It's easy to think first of doing it over a data connection.  But I
can imagine more of a signal-processing approach.  There is a hash
function which generates a hopping sequence, and for each hop, some
different kind of scrambling is applied (processing the audio signal
through various kinds of filters, convolutions etc.)  So it's an
audio-to-audio conversion, and fits in the same bandwidth, but the
audio being sent is unintelligible noise,


Which the GSM codec - because that's what it is designed to do - doesn't 
bother to code very accurately, as it is designed to code voice signals.


Add to this that even if you can predict the code, this is fragile in 
terms of error coding, because the codec is designed so that single bit 
errors make little difference to the voice output, but will make large 
errors in a non-voice like signal.
It is in principle possible to do this, given perfect modeling of the 
codec, infinite computation power, even on channels with bit errors, but 
 not in practice.


It is possible to do this - there was a paper of getting 1300 
bits/second through two GSM codecs in series using a data-driven voice 
synth, and a voice analyser on the other end.


Needless to say - you don't get outstanding quality from 1300bits/second.

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Shawn Rutledge]

On 9/7/07, Raphael Jacquot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> it appear those things are so expensive that I couldn't find any price
> for it. (searching for "secure cell phone" on google)
> also, it appears that none of those things can talk to one another, each
> doing it's little thing.
> now, if we can have something similar to an STUIII phone, with public
> keys and stuff (think either using gpg or ca-cert keys), we're on to
> something that could become a standard.

It's easy to think first of doing it over a data connection.  But I
can imagine more of a signal-processing approach.  There is a hash
function which generates a hopping sequence, and for each hop, some
different kind of scrambling is applied (processing the audio signal
through various kinds of filters, convolutions etc.)  So it's an
audio-to-audio conversion, and fits in the same bandwidth, but the
audio being sent is unintelligible noise, and you need to know the
hopping sequence to make it intelligible again.  No need to modify the
gsm firmware or use a data connection.

I'm sure this has been done for military radios, and maybe it's
related to analog video scramblers too, but I don't know much about
that sort of thing...

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Raphael Jacquot]

Ted Lemon wrote:


At a minimum, we need:

- It's got to actually work as a mobile phone.


that's the most important thing


- At least several hours of H.264 playback.


possibly doable but I don't believe the current hardware can handle it


- A good music app, ideally tied in to the Amazon/Universal store.


with the amount of DRM shit those morons are going to require, forget it
leave people put their own stuff on there. no silly iTunes crap

- Smart connectivity - connecting up bluetooth devices has to be easy, 
and sensing and connecting to known WiFi networks has to be seamless and 
automatic.


agreed

- Mobile Safari-like web browsing - that is, you get to see the whole 
web page, and you can expand and contract the image.


ok


- Leverage the GPS to do things the iPhone doesn't do.


that should be somehow tied with openstreetmap

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Raphael Jacquot]

Kalle Kärkkäinen wrote:

Mikko Rauhala wrote:

Hell, a simple app for encrypted voice calls over GSM data will
instantly make it the cheapest, most transparent secure cellular, adding
it on the top of the shopping list of another niche. I'm sure there are
other killer features that add a niche at a time. And those add up.
  

Yeah, thats the kind of Freedom fighting ads Openmoko needs.. :)

"Are you scared of the big brother? Heres a cheap phone for secure calls!"

Don't get me wrong, it's great that people can build up on this. But it 
might well be that this kind of features narrow chances on *certain* 
markets. ECHELON are you listening? ;)


agreed.
it appear those things are so expensive that I couldn't find any price 
for it. (searching for "secure cell phone" on google)
also, it appears that none of those things can talk to one another, each 
doing it's little thing.
now, if we can have something similar to an STUIII phone, with public 
keys and stuff (think either using gpg or ca-cert keys), we're on to 
something that could become a standard.
one thing though, we may need a special tempest proof version of the 
case for that to be sufficiently secure


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[GWMobile]

The tphone chinese I phone knockoff has more feature and sells for $200 
retail.

It has apentouchscreen but other than that has amny more features.
Runs linux . Any provider, two sim card slots for provider swicthing.
Memeory card slot.

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:26 am, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:

On 9/7/07, Peter Viani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



 On 9/7/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the 
issue of

 > > nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.
 >
 > I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities.
 >
 >
 >
 I agree.  Without 3G and/or a more competitive price point, I can't 
see this

 becoming much more than a small niche product.


I think it is important to get the neo1973v2 out on sale as soon as
possible. Then we can make software that may defend the price. I don't
think the basic version could be sold for any less than $400. Maybe
the advanced kit could be sold for $500? I don't know. But I think
that the phone is so special that it can defend the price. It just
need some good looking, well featured and optimized software.

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Mikko Rauhala]

pe, 2007-09-07 kello 21:49 +0200, Jens Fursund kirjoitti:
> All this sounds really good, but am I wrong when I say that the GPS has
> been cancelled for GTA02?

Yes you are, and please don't quote an entire message for a short
comment like this.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Jens Fursund]

On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 12:35 -0700, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Sep 7, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Andreas Utterberg wrote:
> > What the v2 neo needs is a nice oi, the best would be if its  
> > possible to add compiz fusion, beryl effects to it. That would  
> > really boost the interest to the mass, just look at the development  
> > speed to the berylproject had, and the very big community around it  
> > in a very short amount of time.
> 
> I like cool effects as much as the next guy.   But what the phone  
> needs is a really good UI.   To sell against the iPhone it needs to  
> be as good a value proposition as the iPhone.   Doesn't necessarily  
> have to be better, but has to be as good, and it also has to be  
> different.   For me, right now, it's already better, because the  
> iPhone isn't open.   But for an average person, what's going to make  
> the value proposition work is that it does the things they want their  
> phone to do nicely, transparently.   Frankly, we are many person- 
> years of coding away from that right now.
> 
> At a minimum, we need:
> 
> - It's got to actually work as a mobile phone.
> - At least several hours of H.264 playback.
> - A good music app, ideally tied in to the Amazon/Universal store.
> - Smart connectivity - connecting up bluetooth devices has to be  
> easy, and sensing and connecting to known WiFi networks has to be  
> seamless and automatic.
> - Mobile Safari-like web browsing - that is, you get to see the whole  
> web page, and you can expand and contract the image.
> - Leverage the GPS to do things the iPhone doesn't do.
> 
> Most of this is self-explanatory, but just a couple of notes.
> 
> Remember that a touch screen is not the same as a mouse - you have a  
> lot of built-in positional cues when using a touchscreen that a mouse  
> UI has to *show* you.   One example of this in the Neo UI that's  
> already been adopted is kinetic scrolling.   Another thing that the  
> iPhone UI has that we don't is shrink and grow.
> 
> Since we don't have multitouch, we can't do shrink and grow the way  
> that the iPhone does.  The way I would do it is to designate an area  
> of the screen to be the size zone.   Maybe the bottom.   When you  
> hold and drag in the size zone, it shrinks or grows the view.   So  
> hold and drag to the left, and the view zooms out.   Hold and drag to  
> the right, and the view zooms in.   The new GPU ought to make this  
> possible.   I think this is more important than any of the stuff i've  
> seen demoed in compiz/beryl.   I don't understand why the compiz/ 
> beryl people spend so much effort on window dressing.   But maybe I'm  
> missing the point - I've never actually run the stuff, just seen the  
> online demos, none of which have ever impressed me.   Sigh.
> 
> As far as leveraging the GPS, something like a remotely-updateable  
> locational todo list would be smart.   Say you go out to pick up  
> groceries.   At home, your sweetie remembers that you need more tp.
> No problem - she updates the todo list for the supermarket you're  
> going to.   When you get there, the phone bleeps with your complete  
> shopping list - the stuff that was already on it, and the tp that was  
> just added.
> 
> You're making coffee, and you notice that you're almost out.   You  
> select the local coffee roaster and put in a note that you need  
> more.   The next day, you're at the Indian restaurant a mile away,  
> which is relatively close in your milieu, and it bleeps to tell you  
> to stop at the coffee shop on the way home.   Or, if you're a New  
> Yorker, it bleeps when you wander by the store.   Proximity depends  
> on your milieu.   Extra credit for locational milieu sensing.
> 
> Another app - you have a list of friends, and your phone and theirs  
> share information at a common site somewhere. You can update your  
> drop-in-ability - when you've got dropins available, your friends'  
> phones will all tell them if they are near you.   If you're trying to  
> meet your friend who has a Neo, you both tell your neos to be on the  
> lookout for the other, or to give you a running positional  
> commentary, and using that, you plot a course toward each other and  
> meet.
> 
> These are things the iPhone doesn't do, so they create a new value  
> proposition that makes the Neo competitive.
> 
> Another thing that would really change the Neo value proposition for  
> me is that I'm afraid to put it in my pocket because of the  
> touchscreen, and the carry bag we got with our Neos is (a) completely  
> artificial and stinky and (b) has too much padding, so it's too big  
> to use.   The Neo needs a protective case.
> 
> 

All this sounds really good, but am I wrong when I say that the GPS has
been cancelled for GTA02?

Best Regards,

Jens


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Ted Lemon]

On Sep 7, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Andreas Utterberg wrote:
What the v2 neo needs is a nice oi, the best would be if its  
possible to add compiz fusion, beryl effects to it. That would  
really boost the interest to the mass, just look at the development  
speed to the berylproject had, and the very big community around it  
in a very short amount of time.


I like cool effects as much as the next guy.   But what the phone  
needs is a really good UI.   To sell against the iPhone it needs to  
be as good a value proposition as the iPhone.   Doesn't necessarily  
have to be better, but has to be as good, and it also has to be  
different.   For me, right now, it's already better, because the  
iPhone isn't open.   But for an average person, what's going to make  
the value proposition work is that it does the things they want their  
phone to do nicely, transparently.   Frankly, we are many person- 
years of coding away from that right now.


At a minimum, we need:

- It's got to actually work as a mobile phone.
- At least several hours of H.264 playback.
- A good music app, ideally tied in to the Amazon/Universal store.
- Smart connectivity - connecting up bluetooth devices has to be  
easy, and sensing and connecting to known WiFi networks has to be  
seamless and automatic.
- Mobile Safari-like web browsing - that is, you get to see the whole  
web page, and you can expand and contract the image.

- Leverage the GPS to do things the iPhone doesn't do.

Most of this is self-explanatory, but just a couple of notes.

Remember that a touch screen is not the same as a mouse - you have a  
lot of built-in positional cues when using a touchscreen that a mouse  
UI has to *show* you.   One example of this in the Neo UI that's  
already been adopted is kinetic scrolling.   Another thing that the  
iPhone UI has that we don't is shrink and grow.


Since we don't have multitouch, we can't do shrink and grow the way  
that the iPhone does.  The way I would do it is to designate an area  
of the screen to be the size zone.   Maybe the bottom.   When you  
hold and drag in the size zone, it shrinks or grows the view.   So  
hold and drag to the left, and the view zooms out.   Hold and drag to  
the right, and the view zooms in.   The new GPU ought to make this  
possible.   I think this is more important than any of the stuff i've  
seen demoed in compiz/beryl.   I don't understand why the compiz/ 
beryl people spend so much effort on window dressing.   But maybe I'm  
missing the point - I've never actually run the stuff, just seen the  
online demos, none of which have ever impressed me.   Sigh.


As far as leveraging the GPS, something like a remotely-updateable  
locational todo list would be smart.   Say you go out to pick up  
groceries.   At home, your sweetie remembers that you need more tp.
No problem - she updates the todo list for the supermarket you're  
going to.   When you get there, the phone bleeps with your complete  
shopping list - the stuff that was already on it, and the tp that was  
just added.


You're making coffee, and you notice that you're almost out.   You  
select the local coffee roaster and put in a note that you need  
more.   The next day, you're at the Indian restaurant a mile away,  
which is relatively close in your milieu, and it bleeps to tell you  
to stop at the coffee shop on the way home.   Or, if you're a New  
Yorker, it bleeps when you wander by the store.   Proximity depends  
on your milieu.   Extra credit for locational milieu sensing.


Another app - you have a list of friends, and your phone and theirs  
share information at a common site somewhere. You can update your  
drop-in-ability - when you've got dropins available, your friends'  
phones will all tell them if they are near you.   If you're trying to  
meet your friend who has a Neo, you both tell your neos to be on the  
lookout for the other, or to give you a running positional  
commentary, and using that, you plot a course toward each other and  
meet.


These are things the iPhone doesn't do, so they create a new value  
proposition that makes the Neo competitive.


Another thing that would really change the Neo value proposition for  
me is that I'm afraid to put it in my pocket because of the  
touchscreen, and the carry bag we got with our Neos is (a) completely  
artificial and stinky and (b) has too much padding, so it's too big  
to use.   The Neo needs a protective case.



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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Giles Jones]

On 7 Sep 2007, at 19:51, ian douglas wrote:


Andreas Utterberg wrote:

Better to get it out now with more bugs, then later with less bugs.


I disagree: having *any* noticeable bugs in a release product will  
bring

a lot of criticism. Having "more bugs" just to get a release out the
door will generate a lot of bad press about the efforts put in by
everyone on the team, and will discourage a lot of people from trying
the Neo.



Depends on the bugs. Data corruption/loss must not be present, always  
failsafe.


Phone calls must always be possible, no call should ever be dropped  
due to a bug.


Text messages should not be sent due to a bug (again, failsafe), I've  
had this in a Windows Mobile phone where it repeatedly sent out the  
same message due to a bug.


Cosmetic and minor bugs can exist in the product. No severity 1  
(highest), 2, or 3 bugs.



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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Kalle Kärkkäinen]

Mikko Rauhala wrote:

Hell, a simple app for encrypted voice calls over GSM data will
instantly make it the cheapest, most transparent secure cellular, adding
it on the top of the shopping list of another niche. I'm sure there are
other killer features that add a niche at a time. And those add up.
  

Yeah, thats the kind of Freedom fighting ads Openmoko needs.. :)

"Are you scared of the big brother? Heres a cheap phone for secure calls!"

Don't get me wrong, it's great that people can build up on this. But it 
might well be that this kind of features narrow chances on *certain* 
markets. ECHELON are you listening? ;)


--
Kalle.

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Kalle Kärkkäinen]

Mikko Rauhala wrote:

Hell, a simple app for encrypted voice calls over GSM data will
instantly make it the cheapest, most transparent secure cellular, adding
it on the top of the shopping list of another niche. I'm sure there are
other killer features that add a niche at a time. And those add up.
  

Yeah, thats the kind of Freedom fighting ads Openmoko needs.. :)

"Are you scared of the big brother? Heres a cheap phone for secure calls!"

Don't get me wrong, it's great that people can build up on this. But it 
might well be that this kind of features narrow chances on *certain* 
markets. ECHELON are you listening? ;)


--
Kalle.

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Mikko Rauhala]

pe, 2007-09-07 kello 20:18 +0200, roby kirjoitti:
> In my opinion software can make the difference.. I think openmoko
> should go in the direction of providing things not possible in a
> closed phone..

Indeed.

Comparing to the iPhone is useless, and the Neo will not be in direct
competition with it for a while yet at least. Hell, it wouldn't be the
anti-iPhone if it was taking iPhone head on on iPhone's terms. It would
be just another iPhone.

The way I see it, the Neo will almost certainly be a niche product at
first, so woeing about "oh no, it's less expensive now to sell your
freedom to Apple (still with a 2 year contract on your soul unless you
hack it), so the Neo will only be a niche product" fails to impress me.
That's where you start. That's where Linux started. A niche. But that's
a niche that can actively make it a better product, potentially rather
quickly too.

Hell, a simple app for encrypted voice calls over GSM data will
instantly make it the cheapest, most transparent secure cellular, adding
it on the top of the shopping list of another niche. I'm sure there are
other killer features that add a niche at a time. And those add up.

The iPhone is laughably limited on the software side, and what's worse,
intentionally. Functionally besting it in most software categories isn't
too difficult. (The GPS is another advantage, though it's unfortunate
about the most useful maps not being freely available. Still, there's
stuff to do with that.)

And when there's a functional upper hand, with no arbitrary limits or
costs for trivial services, then it's time for the big push to ordinary
people. (Not that one shouldn't do some pushing before that, either.)

Who me? Certainly not with OpenMoko or FIC.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[ian douglas]

Andreas Utterberg wrote:
> Better to get it out now with more bugs, then later with less bugs.

I disagree: having *any* noticeable bugs in a release product will bring
a lot of criticism. Having "more bugs" just to get a release out the
door will generate a lot of bad press about the efforts put in by
everyone on the team, and will discourage a lot of people from trying
the Neo.

I also don't think that Beryl/Compiz is something worth working towards
(yet) when the base two-dimensional UI still has issues. (that's the
impression I've gotten, based on other message threads; my Neo should be
here any day from another developer, so I can't speak to this personally
yet)

But I do agree with the messages that Tilman and Raphael just sent about
some 'flawless' basic features that need to happen before we add eye
candy: dialer, address book, SMS, browser, then other value-added goodies.

-id

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Tilman Baumann]

Raphael Jacquot wrote:

Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:

we need

* flawlessly working dialer
* flawlessly working address book
* flawlessly working SMS send/receive

the rest can probably wait ;D


And directly after that a flawless browser and flawless instant messanging.
Because that is where the added value starts to be visible.

Regards
 Tilman

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Raphael Jacquot]

Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:


I think it is important to get the neo1973v2 out on sale as soon as
possible. Then we can make software that may defend the price. I don't
think the basic version could be sold for any less than $400. Maybe
the advanced kit could be sold for $500? I don't know. But I think
that the phone is so special that it can defend the price. It just
need some good looking, well featured and optimized software.


we need

* flawlessly working dialer
* flawlessly working address book
* flawlessly working SMS send/receive

the rest can probably wait ;D

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Andreas Utterberg]

>
>
>
> >I think it is important to get the neo1973v2 out on sale as soon as
> >possible. Then we can make software that may defend the price. I don't
> >think the basic version could be sold for any less than $400. Maybe
> >the advanced kit could be sold for $500? I don't know. But I think
> >that the phone is so special that it can defend the price. It just
> >need some good looking, well featured and optimized software.


What the v2 neo needs is a nice oi, the best would be if its possible to add
compiz fusion, beryl effects to it. That would really boost the interest to
the mass, just look at the development speed to the berylproject had, and
the very big community around it in a very short amount of time.

Also important to get the device out for sale as soon as possible,  the
sooner the better,  that  would get more people involved because i think may
is waiting on the v2 to jump on the train, im one of them :-). Better to get
it out now with more bugs, then later with less bugs.

/Andreas



-- 
Andreas Utterberg
Thundera AB
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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[roby]

In my opinion software can make the difference.. I think openmoko should go
in the direction of providing things not possible in a closed phone.. And
hardware upgradability (possibility to change processor, or to add memory)
would mean that the initial investment can be compensated with the longevity
of the phone..

roby

On 9/7/07, Peter Viani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/7/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue
> > of
> > > nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.
> >
> > I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities.
> >
> >
> > I agree.  Without 3G and/or a more competitive price point, I can't see
> this becoming much more than a small niche product.
>
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>
>
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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 9/7/07, Peter Viani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/7/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue of
> > > nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.
> >
> > I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities.
> >
> >
> >
> I agree.  Without 3G and/or a more competitive price point, I can't see this
> becoming much more than a small niche product.

I think it is important to get the neo1973v2 out on sale as soon as
possible. Then we can make software that may defend the price. I don't
think the basic version could be sold for any less than $400. Maybe
the advanced kit could be sold for $500? I don't know. But I think
that the phone is so special that it can defend the price. It just
need some good looking, well featured and optimized software.

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Peter Viani]

On 9/7/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue of
> > nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.
>
> I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities.
>
>
> I agree.  Without 3G and/or a more competitive price point, I can't see
this becoming much more than a small niche product.
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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Shawn Rutledge]

On 9/7/07, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue of
> nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.

I think it will need to be $300 or less to sell large quantities.

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Re: ATI to provide specs (was: Re: SMedia 3362)

[Shawn Rutledge]

On 9/6/07, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It may be worth talking with ATI again.  Since this announcement, I
> don't think it is too far fetched to at least get the same deal you
> currently have with SMedia.  I wouldn't be surprised if the people you
> were talking to had no idea this sort of thing was being planned.  ATI
> may even allow the release documentation at some point in the future.

Or just use it for leverage to get more from SMedia.

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Marco Barreno]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 05:18:36PM +0100, thus spake David R. Newman:
> Nkoli wrote:
> > On 9/6/07, *Denis Parchenko* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> > wrote:
> 
> > sold in the first 30 hrs than in the following month, but beyond that,
> > $399 iphones are highly detrimental to the success of the Neo1973. 
> 
> But the Neo, even as a small-quantity development kit, only costs $300.
> That's still less that $399. A mass-produced OpenMoko phone would cost
> less (particularly if it was ready to use in the Chinese, Japanese and
> Indian markets).

Unfortunately, the $300 base/$450 advanced pricing scheme was a special
discount for GTA01.  The announced price for GTA02 is $450 for Neo
Base and $600 for Neo Advanced; see Sean's "New Oceans" email:
  http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/006005.html
or the Neo1973 wiki page:
  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973

At that pricing, though, it will indeed have a tough time competing
with the iPhone among anyone but the most committed free software
geeks.

Marco


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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Nkoli]

On 9/7/07, David R. Newman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> But the Neo, even as a small-quantity development kit, only costs $300.
> That's still less that $399. A mass-produced OpenMoko phone would cost
> less (particularly if it was ready to use in the Chinese, Japanese and
> Indian markets).
>
> --
> Dr. David R. Newman, Queen's University Management
> School, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland (UK)
> Tel. +44 28 9097 3643 FAX: +44 28 9097 5156
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.qub.ac.uk/mgt/



The mass produced version will be $450. There will also be the issue of
nokia's upcoming touchscreen device to contend with.
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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[David R. Newman]

Nkoli wrote:
> On 9/6/07, *Denis Parchenko* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:

> sold in the first 30 hrs than in the following month, but beyond that,
> $399 iphones are highly detrimental to the success of the Neo1973. 

But the Neo, even as a small-quantity development kit, only costs $300.
That's still less that $399. A mass-produced OpenMoko phone would cost
less (particularly if it was ready to use in the Chinese, Japanese and
Indian markets).

-- 
Dr. David R. Newman, Queen's University Management
School, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland (UK)
Tel. +44 28 9097 3643 FAX: +44 28 9097 5156
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.qub.ac.uk/mgt/

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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Nkoli]

On 9/6/07, Denis Parchenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi folks!
>
>   Anyone saw new Apple announcement? Now iPhone is priced at $399..
>
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/steve-jobs-live-apples-the-beat-goes-on-special-event/
>
> =#=-===-===#=--- - -- -=#=-- - -   -  -
> Best regards,
>Denis



It just occurred to me that Apple's price cut may have nothing to do with
lagging sales. Sure there's that whole issue that more phones were sold in
the first 30 hrs than in the following month, but beyond that, $399 iphones
are highly detrimental to the success of the Neo1973. The neo was more
attractive to general consumers because of its price, but now OM has to
justify selling a phone with fewer features for more money. Apple's move is
ingenious if you look at it this way. Average buyers don't care that it's
running linux or that they can hack it any way they want. The neo has to
either be priced below the iphone or have more attractive features (3G + 3D
desktop and more if possible) to stand even the slightest chance in the
market.
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Re: Making GPRS/pppd connection.

[Bartlomiej Zdanowski]

I lost my hope... Thank you for response.

Henry Law pisze:

My neo can use GPRS. But need to stop gsmd first.

I put all the AT command in to chatscript and try pon gprs. ppp0 appear
after a while. I am using PEOPLES in HongKong and the SIM card does not
have a PIN.

Could you send me your scripts?

Did you see any AT command log in /tmp/gsmd.log or /var/log/message?

I didn't search there. What should I search for?

Best regards,
--
*Bartlomiej Zdanowski*
Programmer
Product Research & Development Department
AutoGuard S.A.

Place of registration: Regional Court for the Capital City of Warsaw
Registration no.: 287629
Share capital: 1 059 000 PLN
Polish VAT and tax ID no.: PL1132219747
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04-128 Warsaw
Poland
phone +48 22 611 69 23
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Re: Making GPRS/pppd connection.

[Henry Law]

My neo can use GPRS. But need to stop gsmd first.

I put all the AT command in to chatscript and try pon gprs. ppp0 appear
after a while. I am using PEOPLES in HongKong and the SIM card does not
have a PIN.

Did you see any AT command log in /tmp/gsmd.log or /var/log/message?

Henry

Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. wrote:

Hi Community.

Did anyone make successful GPRS connection according to the wiki? I got 
some errors after a few first AT commands. Enabling debug with


pppd debug call gprs

pppd shows series of lines

[LCP ConfReq id=0x1]

and then

tcsetattr: Invalid argument (line 964)

pppd hangups and no connections is made. I tried to stop gsmd, restart 
gsmd, kill dialer and other software which might be disturbing gsm but 
no success. I have a card with pin checking but I added

AT+CPIN?
AT+CPIN="mypin"
and it works elsewhere correcly. Minor information is that I'm using 
Orange PL (polish) sim card. I didn't try other cards.

Does anybody know how to run this machinery? Please help.




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Re: 4 GB SD flash card does not work

[Ole Tange]

On 9/6/07, Stefan Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello.
>
> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 23:27, Ole Tange wrote:
> > I just got a 4 GB SD flash card. It seems this does not work. It may
> > just be this model though.
>
> Mine works fine.
>
> http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=93
>
> > SanDisk 4GB microSDHC 07190023400ZC
>
> That number looks more like a serial of the card and not the product
> number to me.

I agree. It is, however, the only number on the card.

> > and also not in a Linux machine that is newer than the Windows machine.
>
> Which kernel version? SDHC support was added in 2.6.21

2.6.18, so it may explain the Linux issue.

/Ole

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Re: 4 GB SD flash card does not work

[Ole Tange]

On 9/5/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 5 Sep 2007, at 22:27, Ole Tange wrote:
>
> > I just got a 4 GB SD flash card. It seems this does not work. It may
> > just be this model though.
>
> Does it show up at all or just doesn't mount? you may need to format
> as ext3 if it doesnt mount.

It does not show up in /dev.

/Ole

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RE: speeding up the flow of information

[thomas.cooksey]

>I'd like to introduce Michael Shiloh and Joachim "Roh" Steiger -- two
>new members of the OpenMoko team. Their primary responsibility will be
>to support you, the OpenMoko community developers. I'm sure you'll all
>agree this is an extremely important (and too often neglected in this
>project) role ;-)

Fantastic news... In that case, any chance of letting us know:

>What exactly will the [sMedia3362] "driver" actually be? As far as I
can tell there are several options:

>1) A DRI/DRM kernel module & associated mesa module
>2) A hacked up KDrive with accelerated driver
>3) An xorg EXA/XAA driver
>4) A DirectFB kernel module
>5) A bog-standard Linux frame buffer device



One of the biggest complaints I've read about on this list is the
responsiveness of the user interface. One possible/probable reason for
this is the rendering speed of OpenMoko's GTK+ implementation. The
sMedia chip has been touted as one of the ways the GTA02 will speed up
rendering, and the term "Hardware acceleration" has been mentioned quite
a bit. However, I've not seen anyone mention _how_ GTK+ is actually
going to be accelerated by the sMedia chip. I think this is a pretty
important issue. Personally I'd like to see a full OpenGL ES & EGL
library so we(I) can start porting the OpenGL ES port of Quake 3 to the
neo. :-) 

Quake 3 on the neo... mm... yummy...


Cheers!

Tom

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speeding up the flow of information

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

Dear Community,

I'd like to introduce Michael Shiloh and Joachim "Roh" Steiger -- two
new members of the OpenMoko team. Their primary responsibility will be
to support you, the OpenMoko community developers. I'm sure you'll all
agree this is an extremely important (and too often neglected in this
project) role ;-)

This includes getting technical and non-technical information out to you
as quickly as possible, and also speeding your questions, ideas, and
concerns to the appropriate person inside OpenMoko.

Michael will focus more on North America and the Middle East while Roh
will help out with Europe. Other regions will be shared between them both.

Expect to hear more from them shortly.

-Sean





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Re: Apple is going to beat all competitors

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 06 September 2007 18:52:35 David "Lefty" Schlesinger wrote:
> > Anyone saw new Apple announcement? Now iPhone is priced at $399..
>
> ...an act which has certainly pissed off all the folks who got suckered
> into standing in lines for days and paying through the nose to be the
> first kid on the block with one. 

>
I read somewhere that the early adopters will get 100$ credit from Apple?



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Re: where did the build site go?

[Bartlomiej Zdanowski]

Sorry, it should go on device-owners list.

Bartlomiej Zdanowski pisze:

Hi
Michael Lauer pisze:

This is correct. There were some BitBake / OE changes that required
doing a full rebuild. I expect the feed to be up again within the next
12 hours or so.
  

You're right! It's up.
http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/fic-gta01/




--
*Bartlomiej Zdanowski*
Programmer
Product Research & Development Department
AutoGuard S.A.

Place of registration: Regional Court for the Capital City of Warsaw
Registration no.: 287629
Share capital: 1 059 000 PLN
Polish VAT and tax ID no.: PL1132219747
Omulewska 27 street
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Poland
phone +48 22 611 69 23
www.autoguard.pl 
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