Freedom Redfined.
Community, As many of you know may 25th was my last official day at Openmoko. Since that time I have been focused on two things: First, putting my Openmoko business in order. There were several tasks that got cut off midstream by the layoff and I felt I owed it to the community to see those jobs through to some sort of conclusion. Having relied on volunteer work from the community for so long, it only seemed right that I contribute. I wanted to see the buzz fix program successfully implemented both in the EU and in North America. With help from Dr. Schaller, SDG, and Sean I was able to get that done. Next on my list was the GTA02 core project. When we canceled the GTA03 Werner and others started a community effort to do a phone design that was completely community driven. That's no small task, but it keeps the dream alive so I will continue to support it. On that front, we have met with some success. Building Open Source hardware requires money at some stage, money to buy parts and money to build prototypes. Openmoko has graciously agreed to donate some components to the project and I've put Werner in contact with people who can help with the prototype runs. It's still early and there is a lot of work to do, so pitch in if you can. I also wanted to see the foundation work kicked off. And lastly I tried to find some of my Openmoko friends employment which brings me to the second major thing I have been working on: Starting a new company. Wolfgang has alluded to this in a previous post and now is a good time to let you all know what we have been up to since late May. In the coming days as we get the web page together and lists set up I'll make some announcements and blog about the company and its mission. The key elements are 1. Using existing hardware rather than designing new hardware. 2. Focusing the software effort below the user levels, 3. targeting the linux developer community. The most important thing from our perspective is that there is no conflict with OM. Wolfgang and I met with Sean on Saturday and explained our plan. OM will focus on Project B so there won't be any conflict. We also agreed that in the future the two companies will be able to find ways to work together with OM perhaps picking up some of our products and applying their focus-- Industrial design and user interface. I'll be back to announce the name of the company in the coming week or so as we build out the web page. You can write me here or at my personal gmail account. (moshersteven@) Best Regards All, Steve. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner A6 Sale
The deal for 10 FR makes this even more attractive Jason Self wrote: > I've been holding off on buying a FreeRunner until until it seemed > sufficiently problem-free to me. > > $250 is a very appealing price. I just wanted to confirm my > understanding that the only difference between A6 and A7 is that a) > the buzz fix is applied and b) it has a newer GSM firmware (which I > can flash myself anyway, so not a big deal.) > > If my understanding is correct, then it sounds like a great deal, > especially if I'm able to ship it to SDG Systems for them to apply fhe > fix for me. > > http://sdgsystems.com/estore/cart.php?target=product&product_id=269&category_id=17 > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Tully have some very good ideas on how to change the 02 case and get rid of some annoyances-- bring the screen flush with the surface, reduce the parts count. And I had a camera solution that looked promising. Write me if you decide to go down this path and I'll explain our ideas Fabian Schölzel wrote: > Werner Almesberger wrote: > >> But I think a case-making project that follows the same approach as >> gta02-core, namely reconstructing and prototyping the existing >> design with Free tools (and making some small changes) could be >> rather useful for establishing the know-how that can later be used >> for more ambitious work. >> > > I'm not an engineer, but a draftsman, so I could also help with the > mechanical > design and modeling of the case and other things related to the project. I > will take a look at the mentioned CAD-Tools. > > Fabian Schölzel > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
I would offer this. The vision that Werner has, shared by a good number of us ( hat tip to Dr Schaller) is to create a process whereby the design effort can be shared collaboratively. As I look at the EE design process it is currently controlled at several points by closed proprietary systems. These chains will will not be broken all at once. Lets take the layout tool. Layout tools are expensive software. You may be a EE with a great idea, but your stuck in schematic land if you dont have a layout tool. Now the output of layout tools ( gerber file) is rather open and standard. There are many elements here where a community effort can help. At some point I will put something together to describe this process, the tools, the resources, and you can all see how close we are to an open process. If folks dont want to wait for me, they can pitch in and describe the process themselves and put it in the wiki. So, generally speaking I'd say the mission is opening the design process to allow for collaborative open source hardware development. On another thread people are speculating about Project B. some interesting speculations. Imagine a world where those speculations could be turned into working prototypes and then products.. all done the open source way. just a thought. Werner Almesberger wrote: > Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > >> Scope: What will our mission statement be? Is the foundation just >> to support the gta02-core project, >> > > Just a quick remark: please don't concentrate too much on > gta02-core when planning organizational structures for the > future. > > The focus of gta02-core is not on making the next big phone but > on opening the process. The few pieces of hardware gta02-core > is planned to produce would be a proof of concept that we've > succeeded to meet that specific goal but they will likely be of > little practical interest to anyone who is looking for a > substantial improvement on the GTA02 as a day to day phone. > > Once gta02-core is complete, there are several paths that could > lead to a mass-produced phone. Some could be very quick, others > quite slow. Mass-producing a phone requires a lot of money, so > at that stage, the direction would also depend on the goals of > investors or sponsors and on an assessment of the target > markets. > > An organisational structure should allow us to keep assets > across projects. This will also encourage keeping technical > projects small and focused. > > I use gta02-core as a reference when discussion specific needs, > because of the project's narrow scope. If a plan doesn't work > for gta02-core, it probably doesn't work at all. But a plan > that only works for gta02-core wouldn't be much better either. > > - Werner > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Pat Meier (=public relation of Openmoko)
Hi, I have to quibble a bit here. Any PR firm, including Pat's, is at the mercy of the mouthpiece. That's me. Before they release the information they look me in the eye and ask me to vouch for the veracity. Think of them as a messenger. You hand the postman a letter professing your undying love for a woman. he delivers the letter. Later, you break the woman's heart. Should she shoot the postman who was paid to deliver the message? But PR firms do more than simply deliver your message. They also help you correct false stories in the press. WRT wikis as a tool for putting information into the world. I'm not entirely convinced that a wiki can serve as best tool for every situation. This is something I used to teach in rhetoric class. Every message has a speaker, a channel, an audience and a purpose. One channel doesn't fit all. So if my purpose is to speak to the press with the purpose of giving them information that they can re transmit easily across many other channels, then a press release is a great tool. We send a press release to a reporter ( press releases are for the press ) that reporter uses another channel, the phone, to talk to me. He's got the release in his hands, I've got it in mine. We do an interview, live. he questions me. listens to my answers. Pushes hard on me. It's hard to do that in today's version of the wiki, which is really a non real time, consensus version of the truth. the interview, well that's very often "thunderdome" two men enter, one man leaves. It's a "best man wins" version of the truth. When it comes down to it, I tend to be a pragmatist. If a wiki proves to be the best tool for the job, use a wiki. If a blog gets it done, blogit. Does a tweet work to get the thing done? then tweet. phone call? email? press release? these all are various species of the thing we call communication. not to mention winks, nods, coughs, and twirling your hair between your fingers. WRT plan B or any other product at OM, Sean and the design team will announce they decide the time is right. It's not for me to pre-empt that. Christoph Pulster wrote: > Hi Steve, > > thanks for explaining the way PR with PatMeier works. > It was a mistake by myself to approve some quotes in the realeases about > Pulster, so blame it on me. > In general I still believe PatMeier & Co. style of public relations and > philosophy of Openmoko doenst match. PR is a paid service to put non- > objective informations into the world. This is the opposite of community > based and managed information (Wiki). > > Now as Openmoko deceide to put the future of GTA02 in the hands of the > community, I suggest to open communication also in radical OPEN way. > Let us know Plan B. Community will discuss it and this will improve the > product and this process will create quality news by itself. > > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Many thanks to you Christoph, I always make a habit of returning to decisions I have played a role in to review my thinking and uncover the mistakes I may have made so that I can make new ones the next time around. ( hat tip to Werner) I like very much your idea of a multi purpose platform. Christoph Pulster wrote: >> it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. > > Thanks for the very interesting inside views about your decisions, I > really appreciate your way of explaining how things worked out. > I have to revise my opinion about your marketing strategy in some way. > "Free your phone" is a nice slogan and idea to archive publicity. > > The big Unknown is and will be the GSM chip which is under NDA. > Freerunner may phone the Whitehouse anytime. Without a workaround of GSM > the vision of the Free Phone will stay a vision. This is painful to > realize, I know :-) > > Again thanks to you, > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Linux International and Openmoko
Thank you Dr. Schaller, Your suggestions, both about the business of Openmoko, and the paths forward for the company have been an inspiration to me. Not to mention your dogged determination in helping us get the buzz fix out to the community. Had we not taken your suggestions and adopted your program our community would still be buzzed! Thanks also for helping our partners in North America bring your program to that continent. Steve Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > I am very happy that my ideas that I had expressed and discussed > beginning of April (and even non-public in March) > > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/gta03/2009-April/06.html > > have inspired many people: Steve who pushed for a GTA03 mailing list > and opening the design process, Werner who now runs the GTA02-core > project and now thank you Jon for proposals to give the community a > new home! > > IMHO, the community is now again going in the right (future oriented) > direction and I am happy to see that. > > Nikolaus > > http://www.handheld-linux.com by Golden Delicious Computers > > Am 06.06.2009 um 18:42 schrieb Jon 'maddog' Hall: > >> Hello, >> >> I understand that there has been a discussion on this list about >> having >> a foundation that would represent the community of Openmoko. >> >> Fifteen years ago Linux International was created to provide services >> for the Linux community. It was started as a vendor organization, >> at a >> time when there were not many vendors interested in Linux. We >> handled a >> lot of legal and business issues for Linux: >> >> o Protected the Linux Trademark from people that would "kidnap" it for >> various reasons >> o Helped to start two certification organizations (we funded some of >> the >> original testing work for LPI certification) >> o Helped to start the Linux Standard Base project, which became the >> Free >> Standards Group >> o Helped to form what became Linuxworld >> o Helped many local user groups start local events, most notably the >> Atlanta LinuxFest and the Ohio LinuxFest >> >> We tended to split off the groups we formed, afraid that one vendor >> organization would provide too much power in a centralized >> organization. >> >> For various reasons as larger companies started to show interest in >> Linux, our membership went to form OSDL, which now is the Linux >> Foundation. Linux International as an organization has been dormant >> for >> about five years. I have still been spreading the word about Free >> Software at conferences, through magazine articles and media >> interviews. >> >> Recently I came up with the idea of reforming Linux International into >> an "end user" organization, with the concept that no company could >> join >> as a member, nor sit on the board of directors as a member. Only >> individual end users could hold membership, vote, etc. Of course >> almost >> everybody is an end user of some type of software, so the membership >> would be quite "open". I have been working to change the charter of >> LI >> to reflect this. >> >> Recently I started another project, not a phone, but otherwise similar >> in its needs to Openmoko. This other project will have a community, >> be >> completely "open", and needs an umbrella organization to help with >> legal >> work, etc. I intend on forming a sub-group of LI for this project. >> >> I could offer the same to Openmoko, to be a sub-group of LI. >> >> Linux International is already a legal entity. We are a >> "not-for-profit" in the state of New Hampshire, U.S.A. There are >> reasons why LI is a "not-for-profit" instead of a non-profit (501c3 or >> 501c6) which have to do with ease of applying revenues, etc. Nothing >> stops LI from becoming a 501c6 (501c3 is very restrictive), and >> nothing >> would stop the sub-group of Openmoko from becoming a non-profit, if >> that >> is desired. >> >> Likewise the plans for LI are to have country chapters, with separate >> boards for each country chapter. This was planned way before the >> current issue with Openmoko, but you could take advantage of the >> planned >> structure if you wish. >> >> LI would solicit sponsorships to help fund its work which could come >> from companies, but again the voting membership would be from >> individuals only. The things that LI does would be "Open" to all. We >> do plan on having some things we charge for, to cover costs. >> >> If the Openmoko community is interested in pursuing this, I would be >> happy to discuss LI's plans further with you, and how Openmoko could >> fit >> into this. >> >> Warmest regards, >> >> Jon "maddog" Hall >> -- >> Jon "maddog" Hall >> Executive Director Linux International(R) >> email: mad...@li.org 80 Amherst St. >> Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. >> Cell: +1.603.943. WWW: http://www.li.org >> >> Board Member: Uniforum Association >> Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Associatio
Re: Freerunner's Future
Swap. Thanks. There are many options available to OM. I'm sure they all be considered Steve swap38 wrote: > Steve Mosher a écrit : >> see inlined. >> >> Jeremy McNaughton wrote: >> >>> (...) >>> >>> Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help >>> with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any >>> sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug >>> testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me >>> involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned >>> tonnes from my months of lurking). >>> >> I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has >> high regard for the idea. > > good news :-) > > Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm > probably less skilled than him in management. > But I want to help as much as I can. > > There's 2 solutions for a foundation : > 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation > 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group > > The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later). > We can ask to : > - Linux International (see this mail from maddog : > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html) > - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone : > http://mozphone.com/about/) > - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org) > - other ? > > My 2 cents > > Swap38 > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stress test of my Freerunner
Thanks Sven, Sorry I was not there on Monday when you visited the office. I left TPE the previous friday. Glad to hear you love you FR, keep up the good work and best of luck on your project. Sven Klomp wrote: > As you already noticed from my last mail (Visit at Openmoko), I was traveling > through Taiwan. I didn't want to blame anyone, but share my feelings with > people that are also thrilled by this project. Nevertheless as several people > already mentioned, we have an open phone! and there is a future! > > I use my Freerunner for several weeks as my daily phone now (started after > the buzz was fixed by Daniel, thanks). However, the last two weeks I > stretched my FR to the limit and it did it well: > Few days before I started traveling Taiwan, I decided to make some GPS based > diary for my friends at home. Thanks to the very easy API of FSO, I was able > to write a basic application in Python within three evenings. The > applications sends the current coordinates and some text to my server, where > a KML file is created which can be downloaded by my friends. At the airport, > I bought a cheap Taiwan SIM card and I started to transmit my position via > GPRS (which also worked out-of-the-box). Furthermore, the timezone changed > automagically based on GSM (my old Sony Ericsson wasn't able to do so). > > I had a lot of fun during the last weeks tracking my travel. Of course, I had > some problems but I could solve all of them more or less. E.g. the SHR alarm > application doesn't worked. So I did the alarm the bash way: sleep 28800 && > aplay alarm.wav :-) With this solution, the phone couldn't suspend. Luckily, > the wall charger has Taiwan connections below the European adaptor :-) > Furthermore, I was that adventurous to make an opkg upgrade during the travel > :-) Thereafter, I couldn't suspend after I started GPRS. Annoying, but not a > serious problem. > > I love my FR > Sven > > P.S.: Now I start to fill some bug reports :-) > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Help requested: SHR Screenshots
Good resources for a user guide... Michael Zanetti wrote: > On Sunday 07 June 2009 12:00:44 Petr Vanek wrote: > >> i am uploading it on http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ as we speak, please >> select what you like :) >> >> > > Very nice screenshots! > > How did you get the category bar on the bottom for example on screenshot > #2753? > > Thanks, > Michael > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
see inlined. Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Werner Almesberger wrote: >> You can view the situation also as an opportunity to change some >> of the structure of the project. Openmoko Inc. had certain >> constraints due to the way it was conceived. Some of them looked >> good at the beginning but later caused problems - yet were too >> difficult to change. >> >> The good thing about a new start is that you can stop fighting the >> mistakes of the past and turn your full attention towards making >> new ones ;-) >> >> - Werner > > +1 for Werner's way of looking at things. For those of you who havent had the pleasure of meeting werner or working with him, I'll just add this personal note. He has one of the most cheerful dispositions I have ever encountered. > > Considering that Openmoko started as a project inside a major > electronics manufacturer, it's not surprising that once it was spun > off it kept a lot of "organizational legacy" from its corporate roots. > While the old structure worked well enough to get us to this point, > I'm pretty excited about getting the development even more out in the > open. > > Jon 'maddog' Hall's offer to incubate the community under Linux > International is also pretty exciting. Eventually I'd like to see an > independent foundation that acts as hub and legal representative of > the community. > > Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help > with. Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any > sort of code. The other activities open to me thus far (like bug > testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me > involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned > tonnes from my months of lurking). I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has high regard for the idea. > > But organizing is what I love doing. Like I said above my organizing > experience isn't with free software but with local activist groups and > social services: > - co-founder of a homeless shelter > - sat on committee to rewrite all bylaws, policies and procedures for > the shelter after it had been incorporated as a nonprofit (I'm not a > lawyer, but I've been exposed to lots of policy) > - sat on the board of a coalition/network of social service agencies. > the coalition was unincorporated and hosted by an incubator > organization > - i've done trainings for groups on consensus decision making and > conflict resolution Sounds perfect to me. > > Even though I'm from a different field, I think enough of my > background should cross over that I can be of some help. I've also > used GNU/Linux on the desktop and server since Slackware 3.2 and have > been a lurker/occasional participant on many Free software projects in > that time. So I'm pretty familiar with open source politics too. I > just usually get active in more local oriented projects. > > I don't want any sort of official position... give that to someone who > has already demonstrated a long term commitment to the community. But > I would like to be kept in the loop.. if there's a mailing list > created I'll join it and be a part of the discussion as much as I can. Perhaps we should make a wider shout out to the rest of the community? We really do need somebody to keep the momentum going. Those inside OM are now deeply focused on the business and those who have left are equally occupied, some like werner with volunteer projects and others with finding a next paycheck. > > Depending on how things go, maybe I can handle some of the > organizational tasks that would previously have been done by Openmoko > Inc. and free up developers to do their thing. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
Al Johnson wrote: > On Saturday 06 June 2009, Harald Welte wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >>> the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of >>> mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. >>> >> I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law. You cannot >> charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. >> This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3 >> royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;) >> >> So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is >> pointless. >> > > That depends on what the point is. It's no good being right if you can't > afford to prove it. Many will pay for a license they don't need because it's > cheaper than litigation. It's a legal form of extortion. > +1. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote: > 2009/6/5 Tim Schmidt : > >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is >>> the position, >>> held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is >>> required >>> to apply for a license. >>> >> So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer >> above a few mips? >> > in short yes, in Spain is even more blooding, because apart of format > war licences in customs, there is local agency called SGAE that > succeeds in make pay a fee for any device not only able to play mp3 > but any kind of music, and that's not all, not only to play but to > keep any kind of multimedia format (this include CD/DVD-R, HD, > SDCards) > Is no matter of common sense or logic, now a days with law at hand, > they can do it and they do. Then is your work to demonstrate in court > you are right but meanwhile you are totally fuc$%ed. Scaring ,isn't > it? > Steve the problem is that "some" holding the position, are the ones > that have enough money/power/time/knowledge to sue you, because even > If they know they can loose in the court, in a way or another you will > pay because you just can afford and stand in the whole long proccess, > is their daily routine. > Yes, I know this is the problem. Perhaps I wasnt clear enough in my cryptic note. The issue isnt whether or not this position is valid or will "win" in court. The issue is this. can you afford to defend yourself? At one company I worked at the rule was pretty simple. Try to settle anything that was less than a certain dollar amount, say XYZ dollars, because the cost to even get in front of a judge was XYZ dollars. I cant count the number of times I was told " they have no case, but the cost to prove it is $$$, go work out a deal" >> --tim >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)
I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is required to apply for a license. MP3 was removed from our images long ago and from the repositories. The requirements of the license agreement, without going into details, were beyond our financial means. Al Johnson wrote: > On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote: > >>> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in >>> support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with >>> support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal >>> side (trademarks). >>> >> Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it). >> Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today. >> As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller >> inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize >> their Freerunner order anytime. >> > > Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their > repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now > ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from > that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What > more do you expect them to do? > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Christoph for your clarification. I have a minor quibble with your characterization. When Openmoko started as a project in FIC, it started with a Vision. That vision was to create a open mobile phone. Its the job of marketing to message that vision to the customer. Thats what we did. Very early on, however, we realized that we could position the product ( not the company) in one of two ways: 1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily 2. Its a multi purpose platform first, and a phone secondarily. If you read carefully through interviews and materials we put out you'll see that we chose #1 as opposed to number two. That is, we choose to emphasize the phone aspects as opposed to the multi purpose aspects. Over an over again you will hear us saying that its more than a phone. But, this message was not in the foreground. That was a marketing decision that was hard to make. The problem with #2 as I saw it was this: When openmoko started it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. For me as marketing to insist that we market this vision like #2 didnt make much sense. It's something that we struggled with throughout the life of neo 1973 and FR. Should we change our message about the phone and call it a multi purpose device? should we change the vision of the company? If we suddenly call FR a multi-purpose platform after years of saying it was a phone, what would the community say. From late 2007 when Wolfganag and I joined to early 2008, before the launch of FR, Wolfgang, Sean and I debated this exact issue. And we even considered shipping FR with a Bootable linux and nothing else. The way I viewed it was this. If we keep pushing down the phone path eventually the vision will come true. So we tried everything to keep that vision alive, paring back on the software ( back to the basics) the downside here was this: We might fail to deliver according to the schedules we promised. On the other hand, if I switched the message to " hey its multi purpose platform" then people would ask "what about the phone you promised?" Its basically a no win situation. On one hand we promise a phone and come up short, on the other hand we change our promise altogether. In the end I own this marketing decision and any blame you want to ascribe to it. As I saw it as long as I work dilgently to keep the promise and vision alive I am doing the right thing. So even now as I try to enable people to carry the vision forward, whether its 5 guys working on Gta02 or other things I am working on, I am working to keep that original promise. I could have choosen the other path. I could have said " hey, I know we designed it as a phone, promised a phone from day one, but what the heck, lets just call it a multi purpose platform" In the end at the Embedded systems conference we gave this message a try. On a personal note. I'd like to thank you for your support and hard work. Christoph Pulster wrote: >> the best path foreword is to turn the future of the Freerunner over to >> the community. >> > > I always have problems to define "community". Speaking in numbers, > I see ONE active Mailinglist (here) and nothing more worth to mention. > The GTA03core list consists of 5 active people feeding some strange CAD > software, this community list has -lets guess- 1000 active everydayt > readers and 100 contributors, that's all !? > Based on this, your idea to base the future of the Freerunner to a > "community" is a dead born baby. > > IMO you say "community" but you mean "VAR" = value-added-resellers. > Openmoko's big marketing mistake was to announce Freerunner as a mobile > phone instead a FOSS based multi-purpose plattform. > No VAR's, no sales. Thats the sad point we have reached now. > > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Pat Meier
Christoph, I will politely ask you to retract your comments about Pat. Each and every press release issued by Openmoko was written by me and issued with my approval and Sean's approval. Pat is in charge of the mechanics of getting those releases distributed and covered by the press. As PR she would make editorial suggestions, but in the end the words are approved by me and sean and in the case of quotes, the quotes are approved by the person being quoted. If you consider the words to be BS, then you are entitled to your opinion. I am responsible for each and every word. I'm responsible for generating the information, not Pat. Basically it works like this. I want to to do a press release. I talk with Pat and we discuss whether the item is newsworthy in our estimation. "Steve ate breakfast" may be a fine tweet, but it isn't news. Then if we agree it is newsworthy, I write the release. Sean reviews it and when he and I come to agreement we go back to Pat and ask her to "put the release out" Her name goes at the bottom of the release. Not because the words are hers, but because she is the Press Contact. That means the press contacts her when they want to talk to me or sean. Christoph Pulster wrote: >> I've copied pat meier Johnson our PR person on the thread. Like you >> we believe there is a great positive story here. >> > > IMO Pat Meier is the typical Public Relation crap and does not match to > the company philosophy of Openmoko Inc. at all. > I just checking some announcements of the past of Pat Meier concerning > Openmoko and realize they have a lot of fantasy and free imagination to > create facts and words. I dont like these kind of bullshit information > generators. > > Christoph > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Neo FreeRunner GTA02 versions A5 & A6 Audio Buzz - Quality Enhancement Service
Max wrote: > Great to hear that... > Btw, where do you actually situated?... at least information about > continent you're in would greatly help in estimating shipment costs :) > > cheers, > Max. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > They are in the US. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko Neo FreeRunner GTA02 versions A5 & A6 Audio Buzz - Quality Enhancement Service
Thanks Brian. Brian Fuller wrote: > Hello Openmoko Community! > > As users of the Openmoko Neo FreeRunner GTA02 versions A5 & A6, you > may have experienced an audio buzz while making a phone call. > Openmoko has identified the issue and upgraded the hardware to fix > this issue. The GTA02 version A7 phones are now available and include > this fix. > > In response to this audio buzz issue, Openmoko has implemented a > program by which owners of GTA02 version A5 & A6 FreeRunners can have > their phones reworked to an electrical revision similar to version > A7. All owners of version A5 & A6 FreeRunners are eligible for this > program. SDG Systems (SDG), the US Master Distributor of the > FreeRunner, will be performing the necessary revision work. > > To review the details of this program and to participate, please go to > the SDG online store located at www.sdgsystems.com, select Openmoko on > the Catalog page, select "Buy Now" for the Neo FreeRunner versions A5 > & A6 Audio Buzz - Quality Enhancement Service, and complete the > registration and checkout process. For each phone returned for > rework, you will receive a complimentary FreeRunner replacement > battery to offset your shipping fees. For those interested in > purchasing additional phones, coupon code 5CZ8HT54, redeemable only at > the SDG online store, is available for $30 off the retail price of > $389 for the version A7 FreeRunner. The coupon code has no quantity > restrictions and expires on 7/31/09. > > Participants' phones needing reworked MUST be returned to SDG by > Wednesday, July 15, 2009, to qualify for this program. > > For any additional assistance or questions, please email > buzz...@sdgsystems.com > . > > We appreciate your cooperation as we work to resolve this matter. > > Sincerely, > SDG Systems & Koolu, Inc. > > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Jeremy for your kind words. I've copied pat meier Johnson our PR person on the thread. Like you we believe there is a great positive story here. In addition, I've copied some of the key people in the Openmoko community to get their reaction to your ideas Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make. To those > who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work. I wish the > best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain > in the community in some way. > > I know I haven't really contributed much to the project. I'm not much > of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every > other weekend or so. Still, I've read almost every thread on the > mailing list and have learned a great deal. > > I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local > grassroots organizations and non-profits. My experience isn't with > software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social > service work. Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some > non-tech community organizing to share. > > Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big > deal. There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both > Openmoko Inc. and the community. > > The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as > radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place. The > Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated > Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of > apps, multiple phone gui apps. Not only that, but the mailing lists > are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the > broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and > tracs. > > The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community > around its product. This is no easy task. Companies and > organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not > succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has. For this the company should > be commended. There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well. > > Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the > Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof > that an open source phone can't work. Instead, it seems the > Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house > and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is > designed by an open source community. That's huge! > > There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and > how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again > Openmoko is breaking new ground. > > It may be a little early to bring this message to the media. It > probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a > bit, develop some structure. A Openmoko Foundation maybe? > > Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big > announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of > taking over development of the phone. It could be a chance for > Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic. > It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness > about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members. > Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has > been done with these phones so far. > > Openmoko is a success story. Despite all the frustrations and delays, > a new community that develops open source phone technology has been > created. In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think) > Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to > phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop > innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple. > Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered > one more barrier. > > > Well, that's my 2 cents. > > > Jeremy McNaughton > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte wrote: >> Thanks for your update, Sean! >> >> It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support >> of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in >> areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). >> >> I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. >> >> Regards and thank you once again, >>Harald >> -- >> - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ >> >> "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." >> (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > >
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
yep. you have to vary a whole host of test conditions. Subjects: those with touch screen experience: those without Order of presentation: Size of subjects finger How they type..for me I've always struggled between being a thumb typer and and index finger typer.. neither works for me very well since I have big fingers, bad eyes, and shakes from drinking too much coffee on the accuracy and time one might find that certain content (say SMS) might do better with one format as opposed to another..who knows? Could waste a whole summer doing a test like that. Long ago raster I actually did test design for UIs in fighter aircraft. nasty business. fun if you get paid for it, but not how i'd spend my free time. So I aint volunteering. Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:08:51 -0700 Steve Mosher said: > > indeed. i believe "its not worth bothering". so i am not going to invest any > time into trying it (to try it i'd have to build it... and that will use time) > as my theorising says to me "it wont help". if someone else who thinks it > really is the bees knees... then build it, try it, test it and prove it! get a > non-biased 3rd party to go use the kbd to enter common input or a phone > (emails, > sms's, etc.) and then time over maybe 50 specific messages how long it takes > to > get a 100% accurate entry of it. of course make the test unbiased by swapping > which kbd they use first t enter in each test (first test kbd a then b, in > test > 2, b then a etc.). > > if you really think this kbd (on a touchscreen) is the bees knees - prove it! > :) > > >> before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to >> collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable >> theory, I think. >> >> Michal Brzozowski wrote: >> >>> 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler >>> >>> >>>> but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key >>>> you >>>> intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now >>>> dead >>>> space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u >>>> have >>>> more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% >>>> of he >>>> area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where >>>> you >>>> would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). >>>> >>>> so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost >>>> mis-hit >>>> area too. >>>> >>>> one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then >>>> notice >>>> that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter >>>> again >>>> (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind >>>> >>>> >>> I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually >>> trying it. >>> >>> Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if >>> we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the >>> keys or something. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Openmoko community mailing list >>> community@lists.openmoko.org >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >>> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:13:12 -0700 Steve Mosher said: > > >> yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at >> patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. >> > > oh indeed. the only way to go is plead ignorance. if it comes to court without > a cease and desist you will very likely get off (with then just a cease and > desist) unless they can prove you willfully infringed - i.e. - you knew about > the patent beforehand or at any time up to and beyond actually > shipping/distributing product. you couldn't sanely be successfully sued for > infringing a patent you never knew about. but... if you did. woe betide ye! :) > so as you say steve - a real life example there in a real commercial setting. > its better to be utterly ignorant and hope for the best. it may be you > infringe > on patents and the holders just dont care, thus will not sue. :) > > >> hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents >> (company forced me to), wanna read them? >> > > NO! never! i shall poke my eyes out first and fill my ears > with cement! :) > > /me heads back to his safe patent ignorance zone :) > haha.. your gunna go to some anonymous internet cafe and look it up now. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:10:49 +0200 Michal Brzozowski said: > > >> I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually >> trying it. > > i theorize because hat's what i've done for decades doing code, ui etc. i sit > and think about how something will work months or years before i do it. that's > how i figure out how to make something that could be fast in what it does - by > theorizing on usage patterns, internal data and logic flow etc.etc. months or > years before it ever actually works (and then smile as all the thinking paid > off). > >> Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if >> we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the >> keys or something. > > patents are an area which could literally wipe out my entire life's savings if > taken to court, shown to willfully infringe. you need to check up on patent > law and the sonsequences. if you willfully infringe (KNOW something is > patented and then use it anyway), you don't have a leg to stand on in a court. > maybe you have nothing to lose - i definitely do and won't touch something i > KNOW is patented. better never tell me it's patented - then at least i have a > leg to stand on. yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents (company forced me to), wanna read them? > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable theory, I think. Michal Brzozowski wrote: > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > >> but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key >> you >> intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now >> dead >> space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u >> have >> more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% >> of he >> area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where >> you >> would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). >> >> so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost >> mis-hit >> area too. >> >> one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then >> notice >> that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter >> again >> (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind >> > > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually > trying it. > > Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if > we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the > keys or something. > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
yes, you substitute one error for the other. the issue is the probablity of those errors and the time to correct.. no harm in testing the approach, if somebody has time on their hands Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel said: > >> I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just >> works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually >> dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to >> backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other >> keys while doing that. > > but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you > intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now > dead > space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u > have > more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of > he > area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you > would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). > > so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost > mis-hit > area too. > > one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice > that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter > again > (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Tuxbrain offers Neo FreeRunner in three flavors
A7 is sitting at the factory waiting for orders Timo Jyrinki wrote: > 2009/6/3 David Reyes Samblas Martinez : >> Devel Upgraded Version(A6+) at 259 EUR >> Retail Version(A7) at 299 EUR > > Great news! Are both A6+ and A7 available for shipment right way? Not > that it would matter regarding A7, since A6+ is equivalent, but > interested if A7 production runs have started now. > > At least I'll start recommending FreeRunner now to people to whom I've > so far said to wait for the buzz-fixed version :) > > -Timo > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be "more careful" in where you tap your finger.. Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more failed keypresses.."im touching put nothing is happening... Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson > said: > >> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. >> >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ >> >> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) > is just wrong. it makes for fewer "presses". you hit the deadspace much more > often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the > rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is > unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but > somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit > nothing. > > the kbd just makes no sense. making keys bigger is simply the way to make them > more accurate to hit. if that isn't an option an you still do a kbd-style > keyboard, then having some sort of guessing algorithm that guesses what you > meant to hit is all you have left. > > doing a non "qwerty" style is the only other way you have a way out as you > could have fewer keys, now easier to hit, but you may need to hit them > multiple > types (normal abc, def, ghi etc. number keypad style), and even here to avoid > the multiple hits, you need again a guessing algorithm (t9). :) > >> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything >> other than square keys? >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
I Wonder if you actually need to implement a visual triangle or if a triangular touch area would work just as well? And I wonder how tighly the patent is written around the concept of a triangle.. Perhaps shave off a tiny prtion of the tip of the triangle and you have a parallelogram... hmm just a tiny portion.. say a two pixel wide section hmmm Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:27:00PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: >> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. >> >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ >> >> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think >> >> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything >> other than square keys? > > Made by an idiot, article written by another. > > > A British inventor has submitted a patent application for a > wacky touchscreen keyboard design which > > "inventor"? "patent"? > > Idiots. > > Rui > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Hi Nelson, Thanks good to hear from you. I really enjoyed the pictures you gave me from our last time together in Taipei. Anything you can do to help will be appreciated. Steve Nelson Castillo wrote: > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Community, >> >>To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by >> Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an >> appropriate place in the wiki. >> >> Any takers? >> > > Hello Steve. > > >> - How will the kernel be maintained ? >> > > I'll ask for feedback about this in the kernel mailing list and help > with the FAQ wiki page (If someone else wants to help also please by > all means do). I'll send the email today. > > Nelson.- > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Community, To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an appropriate place in the wiki. Any takers? After the FAQ gets incorporated then we can start to fill it up. Also, I want to start a "wish list" or Suggestion list for what kinds of things OM can do to smooth this transition. here is Werners List. Adjust as you see fit for presentation. - I'm using OM2008/2009 now. Will this distribution still be maintained ? Should I switch ? How ? What will change, what do I have to learn/unlearn ? - What will happen with FSO ? Will development continue ? Will a distribution carry it ? - What will happen with Paroli ? Will development continue ? Will a distribution carry it ? - How will the kernel be maintained ? - Will Openmoko continue selling FreeRunners ? For how long ? - I have a purchase/return/warranty/etc. in progress with Openmoko Inc. or a distributor. What will happen ? - I have buzz/#1024/no bass/etc. Can I still get it fixed ? How ? - Will the Openmoko Internet resources, Wiki, mailing lists, SVN, git, downloads, people, trac, etc., be shut down ? - Will "project B" continue ? - What's the future of Open phone hardware without Openmoko Inc. ? Steve Mosher wrote: > No, it will not impact the program. > >I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are > details to be worked out so watch this space. > > 1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back. > 2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to > perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program) > 3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days. > 4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on > the matter in 5 minutes of my mail. > 5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen. > > I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns > approach, so we dont re invent the wheel. > > I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be > disappointed. > > Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and > imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain. > A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep > customers happy. > > Steve > > Lon Lentz wrote: >> Steve, >> >> Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to >> implement all of the pending hardware fixes? >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> >>> Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something >>> unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize >>> the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere >>> here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community >>> on what OM can do to support the community efforts. >>> >>> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
No, it will not impact the program. I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are details to be worked out so watch this space. 1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back. 2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program) 3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days. 4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on the matter in 5 minutes of my mail. 5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen. I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns approach, so we dont re invent the wheel. I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be disappointed. Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain. A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep customers happy. Steve Lon Lentz wrote: > Steve, > > Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to > implement all of the pending hardware fixes? > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something >> unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize >> the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere >> here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community >> on what OM can do to support the community efforts. >> >> > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something unique. i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community on what OM can do to support the community efforts. I am leaning toward putting Werner's FAQ on the wiki and also having a wiki entry for a community "wish list" where the wishes are directed at how OM can help. Anybody who is better at wiki than me volunteer, please. Steve Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > Dear Community, > > As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May > 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating > the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that > everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing > efforts of the community. > > Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the > Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I > can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over > these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than > contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success. >>From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like > developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen. > You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best > path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with > my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is > to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community. > > We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the > company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these > principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any > other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose > openness over internal control, we have been rewarded. > > Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the > Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools. > Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress. > Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their > efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be > handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki, > GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of > this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server > infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed, > future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require > legal work - so I request your patience.) > > I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built > open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it > will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner > shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the > recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved > this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional > resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We > will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future. > > After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can > do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and > trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous > with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner, > Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain, > Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra > special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about > marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all > would have only been an idea in my notebook. > > I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to > gather input from the community on how best to implement this > transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.) > As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the > territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of > importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and > energies on the future - not the past. > > Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have > plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future > entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start > another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized > our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck! > More detai
Re: Debuzzing
Yes. Since I'm marketing I'll give the only description I can which is considerably dumbed down. RF ( from GSM) gets coupled onto the lines leading INTO the audio mixer. the mixer cannot filter this signal. The RF remains on the line coming out of the mixer. The only way to remove it before it gets on the microphone is to apply a filter: the CAP in the buzz fix. It's unclear whether this buzz can be removed by processing done by carriers or receiving handsets once the infected signal leaves the FR. Clearly in some cases it is not removed. Since the buzz signal is obviously in the hearable range I would imagine that any post processing would be a hit on S/N or audio quality. [To remove the ROOT cause ( RF from GSM getting on the lines) you apply ferrite beads ( or other EE contraptions that I won't pretend to comprehend) on the input side of the Mixer. ] Now, to the question of how the RF gets on the lines going into the mixer. I believe there is a frequency dependency. That is, some frequencies ( say 900 for example) will couple more readily than others ( say 1900) and obviously harmonics of 900 might couple more readily as well. EMI is black magic as far as I'm concerned so I'll shut up and not beclown myself any further. arne anka wrote: >>> Aother note to all who read this: the Buzz rework is only required if >>> you have the Buzz problem. >> Hmm, wasn't there an environmental component as well, i.e., band and >> signal strength ? So changes in the network, e.g., traveling, moving, >> or the provider messing with things, might bring buzz to phones that >> still lacked that experience. > > > as far as i understood the issue, the buzz is there by design and not to > be solved by tewaking a state file. > thus, while actually experiencing that buzz is subject to several factors, > otoh nobody can be said to be sure not to be bitten by it. > conclusion: everyone having access to the buzz fix should take hold of it. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debuzzing
YA, When I first started putting the program together I asked Tony Tu to get me a test protocal for incoming. Engineering ( and others) then pointed out that the Buzz problem was conditioned by enviromental factors that we CND ( could not duplicate) such that a phone with Buzz in the feild may not exhibit it at the test site ( For example, I never had phones buzz for me, even when sean flew out with a phone to show me the buzz) And a phone without buzz in the field may exhibit it at the test site. So, I dropped the requirement for an incoming test protocal. My logic was this. The circuit was known to manifest the problem under certain circumstances. Its clear that RF gets on the line and clear also that the CAP fix, if properly applied, reduces the symptoms, both in theory and in practice. So, if we offer the buzz fix to all, some small fraction of people who do not have the problem will still want the fix. If they are willing to part with their phone for a week or so to get a fix they dont need, then go ahead and fix it. Werner Almesberger wrote: > Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: >> Aother note to all who read this: the Buzz rework is only required if >> you have the Buzz problem. > > Hmm, wasn't there an environmental component as well, i.e., band and > signal strength ? So changes in the network, e.g., traveling, moving, > or the provider messing with things, might bring buzz to phones that > still lacked that experience. > > - Werner > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debuzzing
See inline below Ori Pessach wrote: > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Getting a focused effort in the US has been problematic. The reason is >> simple. The vast majority of sales in the US have been through the OM >> store. The disty, therefore, don't have the same motivation that say >> Dr. N has. neither do they have the resources required. The best thing, >> the most logical thing would be for OM in the US to set up a program >> just like Dr. N did. >> >> The problem? OM usa is me. Part of the reason the deal worked with Dr. N >> is that he was able to do all the detailed ground work required to get >> this done. I would have to execute the fix by myself. That's no simple >> feat, but now that Dr. N has shown the way, I can look into copying his >> effort. basically I'm a marketing guy, but if need be I'll be the >> customer support, feild rework, logistics guy. >> >> In the US it might require a different approach, but I can start to look >> into it. >> > > Steve, I do realize that coordinating this is a challenge, but in this case > it seems like the vendor I bought my phone from is trying to work with > Openmoko, and isn't getting a satisfactory response, or any response at all > if I take their version of the story to be true - which I have no reason not > to. Well, I put together a rework plan for all the distributors. It was a program to rework existing stock. That was phase 1. That program was supposed to be administered by 1 employee at OM. I'll have to check and see if that task was completed. PHASE TWO of the program was to figure out a way to rework devices already in the hands of end users. Dr. N and I have been discussing an approach for a while. And he has just proved that it can work. Understand, Dr. N set up his whole program: he found the technician. he got a quote. he prepare his website to take orders for the program. When he had that all set up he came to me and said: here is my proposal: the customer does this, GDC does that, and OM compensates me in this fashion. So, Sean and I said yes to the deal. That's basically what it would take. You can just have the vendor write me directly with their proposal. If they pattern their proposal after Dr. Ns proposal then I have a good basis to make my case. But you have to understand the issue of scale here. Dr. N offers the service a larger pool of customers. So his technician, of course, can offer a better price. There is a learning curve in doing this fix. If your vendor sold 100 phones, he can expect to get 5 people to mail in phones for a buzz fix. To service these 5 people he has to do a bunch of work. he would be better off just shipping you a A7 for free. But if he openly offered exchanges, then people without the buzz problem could just take advantage of the situation. > > Since I've been waiting for a fix for nearly 10 months, I feel I've been > extremely patient. But even my patience (which is otherwise legendary, I can > assure you) runs out. > > What would you suggest that I do at this point? Have your vendor write me directly. I can see what can be done. They would have to, at minimum, pattern their proposal after Dr. Ns proposal. Find a technician to do the rework. get a quote from him. Establish a way for US owners to ship their product in. Arrange for the rework and adminster it. negotiate a reimbursement package from OM. etc. other ideas? > > --Ori Pessach > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debuzzing
Getting a focused effort in the US has been problematic. The reason is simple. The vast majority of sales in the US have been through the OM store. The disty, therefore, don't have the same motivation that say Dr. N has. neither do they have the resources required. The best thing, the most logical thing would be for OM in the US to set up a program just like Dr. N did. The problem? OM usa is me. Part of the reason the deal worked with Dr. N is that he was able to do all the detailed ground work required to get this done. I would have to execute the fix by myself. That's no simple feat, but now that Dr. N has shown the way, I can look into copying his effort. basically I'm a marketing guy, but if need be I'll be the customer support, feild rework, logistics guy. In the US it might require a different approach, but I can start to look into it. Ori Pessach wrote: > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Joerg, Dr. N and I have been discussing this. There is no need for the >> HWD fix of 1024 as there is a software fix. >> The hwdware fix of 1024 would require much more work than the >> debuzzing. Joerg recommends against it. >> I would agree. I can have him come on here and explain. Even if the fix >> were required we would still have >> to do a lot of work before it could be fielded. So, dont wait. get your >> phone buzz fixed > > > Steve, > > I would love to, but how? I live in the US, the vendor I bought my phone > from has been apparently ignoring my emails about this and when I called > them to ask they told me that they're not getting answers from Openmoko. > It's been over 9 months since I first contacted them about the buzz. > > --Ori Pessach > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debuzzing
Agreed. I've not heard about the jump in standby time, but joerg mentioned something about that ( as i recall). arne anka wrote: >> as there is a software fix. > > imo it is still a workaround, not a fix. > and standby time jumping up 25% looks a lot to me. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debuzzing
Joerg, Dr. N and I have been discussing this. There is no need for the HWD fix of 1024 as there is a software fix. The hwdware fix of 1024 would require much more work than the debuzzing. Joerg recommends against it. I would agree. I can have him come on here and explain. Even if the fix were required we would still have to do a lot of work before it could be fielded. So, dont wait. get your phone buzz fixed and use the software fix for 1024. A hardware fix is not likely. Tha_Man wrote: > > Ole Langbehn wrote: > >> Hello Nikolaus, >> >> what are the odds of including the hw fix for bug #1024 (oscillating >> recamping) into the procedure once it's official (or even before that)? >> I'm trying to decide if I wait a little bit more with sending in my FR to >> squash both issues at the same time. >> >> Regards, >> >> -- >> >> > This is a good question, I'm wondering the same thing: is there a chance > Golden Delicious Computers will offer a fix to bug #1024 within a few weeks > and if so, will it be possible to send in your FR and have both bugs fixed > at the same time? > > I'm considering sending my FR in for the debuzzing fix, but the latter case > would obviously have my preference :-) > > Kind regards, > Jeroen a.k.a. Tha_Man > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Buzz is Fixed
I want to take some time to thank a bunch of people for this. Joerg. People have no idea how persistent he was in insisting that he had a fix for this and then writing an SOP. Tony Tu. While he worked at OM Tony helped me get the fix verified. All the volunteers who put their own FR under the soldering iron. I only had to give one guy a new phone for borking up his personal unit. David from Tuxbrain. David was instrumental in the first feild tests of the buzz fix. Without him we would not have had the confidence to move forward. Daniel: Daniel was also a pioneer in testing out the buzz fix and bring it to customers. Dr. N. Dr. N has rolled out a great process for getting your phone buzz fixed. OM disty and the community list. Thank you for your patience. Back in early december Joerg showed me his buzz fix. It took longer than I wanted to get this fix feilded, but I'm glad to see that his solution is finally making people happy. ..And he and I spent time talking about another hairy bug that day: #1024. Jakob wrote: > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Michel wrote: >> Hi, >> >> For some positive news, I received my FreeRunner back today from Golden >> Delicious Computer. They preformed the buzzfix for me and guess what? >> >> IT WORKED \0/\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/ >> >> SeeYa, >> Michel >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. > > Congratulations! > I'm still waiting patiently for mine to come back :) > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Visit at Openmoko
Thanks, As you can well imagine Sean and I are working on an official statement. This time around a lot more is involved than just us writing post so please be patient. This week is pretty hectic for me and Sean, I'm travelling out of town today ( SF) and then I'll be back for an Android conference on wensday and thursday. Steve Vasco Névoa wrote: > Hey, take it easy, stop going berserk, and wait for the announcement. > They will talk to us when they're good and ready, so save your energy for > then, and stop raising confusion. > Be civilised. Be smart. Be silent (until necessary). > > Citando Moko Mania : > > >> "we are very much alive and well -- That's official. Thanks for caring" is >> this MokoSarcasm? According to Whoiswho on the wiki almost everybody got >> laid off. Is the design team behind the layoffs? Are you part of the design >> team that took our raster already? If it's true then there is no more kernel >> support, no more software releases. How about customer support? Who is >> alive and well? The design team that cannot even design a simple functioning >> phone UI? Is your statement the only official statement we will hear for how >> long? Please don't tell me that everybody who ever did anything good for the >> community was fired. >> > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debuzzing
When OM throws a party nobody leaves with a buzz. Yorick Moko wrote: > thanks for the update! > i'm gonna miss the buzz ;-) > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller > wrote: > >> Am 23.05.2009 um 14:04 schrieb Yorick Moko: >> >> >>> any news on the repair? >>> >> Rework has been started this week and the first units have been >> shipped back. >> >> >>> my order status says for quite some time 'Freerunner received.' >>> is everything going according to shedule? >>> >> Mostly. >> We did have a public holiday in Germany on Thursday (and a voluntary >> holiday on Friday) this week, so this has delayed completion of the >> first batch this week by the SMD rework company. But I am sure we will >> have the first major batch reworked by mid of next week. >> >> >>> just curious >>> >> I completely understand... >> >> >>> y >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller >>> wrote: >>> >>> ___ >>> Openmoko community mailing list >>> community@lists.openmoko.org >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >>> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ain't it funny..
roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: > On 12/05/2009 10:39 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: > >>Well, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Dale's case is somewhat >> special. >> > > You're right and I don't purport to be in possession of all the facts. > The 9 months for which he had the device in his possession, in my eyes, > signify his willingness to accept the interim short-comings of the > device, something he obviously feels penalised for > > Don't get me wrong Steve, I have the utmost respect for you, you've done > a great job handling everything that has occurred. I know I'd hate to > have to deal with what you have and I doubt I'd do it with such finesse. > Ah, you are being too kind. I look at it this way. I have to exhibit at least the same amount of patience as out Customers have. > I still consider my purchase an investment in the future consolidation > of information and communication, with respect to standards and > standards adherence. Maybe not in my lifetime but we have to start > somewhere. > Thanks. > Best regards, > > Sarton > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: It Ain't funny [Was: Ain't it funny..]
ya I got the mail. I'm in TPE. It's on my todo list. Watch for a mail. Dale Maggee wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Now you're just trying to confuse me... ;) > > ...I haven't received any reply to my off-list email yet... I presume > you're looking into it? > > > Steve Mosher wrote: > >> Best of all is to avoid hyperbolic claims of totalitarian behavior all >> together, since the claim, if true, >> will never see the light of pixels, and if false, is self refuting. >> >> That's my rhetorical observation for the day. >> >> >> Dale Maggee wrote: >> Shawn Rutledge wrote: >> >> >>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Dale Maggee >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Generally when I hear the word "nazi" used, it means "totalitarian", not >>>>>> "monster" or "mass murderer" - think of the "soup nazi" in Seinfeld. >>>>>> That's what I meant. Not the other. *At All*. Sorry. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> That just goes to show the meaning has gotten diluted from overuse, >>>>> doesn't it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> Absolutely, to the point that I wasn't even aware that there were other >> meanings you could read into it, and that's why I felt like such a dick >> once I had this pointed out to me. >> >> Like I said, I learned something, and as a consequence I'll need to find >> myself a new metaphor for "totalitarian"... >> > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKCQfHFbVnQRV3OEYRAvv5AJsFqi5PydVOKBxMGxbJ8px/dzkmJwCgjFfG > /gWKpl45b6ZnoZaNSnPuJRI= > =ij30 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ain't it funny..
roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: > On 8/05/2009 6:58 PM, David Garabana Barro wrote: > >> Some time ago, I have recommended several friends*NOT* to buy a Freerunner, >> because software was not ready. It was a great toy for me, but my friends >> would get desperated. I think it's being open minded (and being a good >> friend;) >> >> If someone feels raped, he can press charges to OM. But complaining on a >> community mailing list won't solve his problems. Don't you think? >> > > Way to chime in at the tail end. It's obvious with Dale's recent emails > that he's frustrated that nobody was listening or taking him seriously. > Well, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Dale's case is somewhat special. The highlights are that dale wanted return after owning the product for 9 months ( more or less as I recall). The case was complicated by the fact that Dale bought as part of a group purchase which means his name is not in our customer database. rather the group leader's name is in the database. So, we have no way of guaranteeing that a refund made to the group leader would be passed onto Dale. A while back I believe Tony Tu tried to rectify the situation, but the offer he made was unacceptable to Dale. I'm here in TPE and I will be discussing it with Sean. > I witnessed his contributions and willingness to provide feedback, where > he was met with semantics and useless responses that then pushed him to > publicise his opinion and his situation. All still very obvious if you > have paid any attention. > > You're love for your device and your 'opinion' in no way solves the > problem that he had no outlet for recouping on a falsely advertised > device. Our laws entitle us to have our money refunded in such a > situation but this does not transcend international borders. > > I'd like to know where it is exactly you'd voice your dissent in such a > situation. I'm sure Dale can present you with an audit trail of emails, > trac tickets and the like, long before any of this actually started > publicly. > > To top it off, I reckon Dale would have assimilated (now that's a nasty > word over here) had Lorn admitted to the failings of QTE and been > willing to agree that people have differing opinions on the software's > 'usefulness', none of this would have ever happened. > > The one thing that should never occurred, and I imagine there are a few > people that agree here, is that the FR should never have been advertised > as a phone. Potential to become a phone maybe. This marketing oversight > would have saved a lot of trouble and time. > I say oversight because the people who are supporting openmoko really > don't care whether it's a phone out of the box or not. > > Sarton > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: It Ain't funny [Was: Ain't it funny..]
Best of all is to avoid hyperbolic claims of totalitarian behavior all together, since the claim, if true, will never see the light of pixels, and if false, is self refuting. That's my rhetorical observation for the day. Dale Maggee wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Shawn Rutledge wrote: > >> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Dale Maggee wrote: >> >>> Generally when I hear the word "nazi" used, it means "totalitarian", not >>> "monster" or "mass murderer" - think of the "soup nazi" in Seinfeld. >>> That's what I meant. Not the other. *At All*. Sorry. >>> >> That just goes to show the meaning has gotten diluted from overuse, doesn't >> it. >> >> > > Absolutely, to the point that I wasn't even aware that there were other > meanings you could read into it, and that's why I felt like such a dick > once I had this pointed out to me. > > Like I said, I learned something, and as a consequence I'll need to find > myself a new metaphor for "totalitarian"... > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKBRyUFbVnQRV3OEYRAqlIAKCCPMZT4yqyPLA4nRz5lp+BJ+smtACdE/dy > DgRCwUfSfUNgqz5EFt9o1mk= > =eS2W > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Om2009] testing Release 3
Thanks Risto, I just finished my review on Sunday and made many of the same points. The good news is that (after the long boot) it was very usable as a phone. There were of course some annoyances and somethings in the IU paradigm that took some getting use to Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > Hi! > > Thanks for this new release, really happy to see that only a short > time (a week?) after the previous there's already a new release with > bugs fixed. Release early, release often, as they say :) > > I wrote some points below to show what's good, what I concider as > bug/problem and points to discuss/wishlist/something. I'm sure some of > it has already been discussed, some of it is just me not knowing how > to use it (which can mean that it's not easy to use or a > manual/something is needed) and so on. I'm happy to receive comments! > > + This actually makes FR a simple, very working phone!! (I actually > got a 10 min call from my mum. In the end I asked and she said there's > a small echo left) > + ability to turn off PIN check & change pin! (I think it's the first > distro that can do it :) > + WLAN-tool > + manual suspend > + decent resume speed > > - some mess sometimes in the top of the screen > - The button to 'go back / go to previous screen' keeps changing: In > the menu there's a 'back' button (different size in different views) > but in the people etc one has to know to press the top bar to go back. > - Empty I/O shows an 'edit' button.. maybe it should be hidden and > instead a text 'no logged events' could be shown? > - keylock missing > ¤ Would it be possible to add a SMS button in the 'People' -> contact > view. Now clicking the number calls the user (intuitive? Why clicking > the name nothing happens?). Maybe adding 'dial' and 'SMS' -buttons > there just to make it clear. > - If one by accidentally presses 'Enter in the PIN input view, it just > accepts it and doesn't ask for PIN again. > - wlan scan doesn't have a progress bar telling it's actually doing something > - resume doesn't turn on the screen lights -> one knows it's resumed > only by touching the screen > - GPRS settings: if one by accident clicks 'username', 'APN', or > 'password' instead of Connect, one actually has to re-type it because > the 'back' button doesn't work. > - There's nothing (no text/button) telling one should click in the > black area to get to phonebook to select recipient in 'msgs' -> '+' or > 'Tele' > - Slow boot time (over 4min with Qi?) > - the alsastatefile (kurppa.fi/freerunner/temp/gsmhandset.state_2009t3 > with Right PGA on control.63) is different from the latest 'working > one' (with mic2) at > http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/2121/gsmhandset.state.new > > ¤ How to connect to a hidden WLAN network? How about encryptions? > ¤ The numbers in the home view showing missed calls or received > messages could be bigger/colorful/something or even say 'one missed > call' or 'new SMS received' > ¤ At some stage I saw the : in the time blinking, then it stopped. I > think it either should blink or not but not keep changing what it does > (without telling me what does it mean :) > ¤ Is there a way to enable illume from command line? > ¤ Icon that's shown before GSM network registration doesn't tell me > anything. What does it actually represent? > ¤ The only place where I was able to find colors was the yellow flash > in the battery icon when recharging. Using colors in other places too > would maybe do it easier to use? > ¤ With hundreds of phone numbers it'd be great to be able to type at > least the first letter, or two-three to be able to find the > ¤ I got many 'can't init topbar/wlan/...' -messages telling that > something failed (only on the first start) > ¤ The date doesn't need the | -bars in the home view: it's | Sunday, > May 10, 2009 |- the bars just make it more difficult to read > ¤ Does paroli (already / in the future?) support icons in the menus? > Either so that there would be a icon grid or like now but every line > would have a small icon just to make it easier to use > ¤ GPRS settings: Should the password be hidden? (I don't know if > anyone is really interested in GPRS passwords..) > ¤ GPRS settings: maybe APN should be 'internet' by default, I think > it's the most common APN? > ¤ GPRS settings: I'd recommend reordering the items so that the > connect would be first or last in the list. > ¤ I/O really doesn't tell for a normal people that it's actually the call > log.. > ¤ Msgs could be replaced with SMS, if something short has to be used > ¤ Tele also doesn't make sense, I'd suggest using 'Dialer' > ¤ How do I use the alarm? How do I change the time when to alert? > ¤ Maybe also reordering the main menu so that the phone log would not > be the first one? > ¤ At some stage my FR just decided not to resume any more > ¤ After the 10min call the UI died, I wasn't able to press any > buttons, nothing happened. Then after waiting some minutes it started > running again. Sti
Re: Ain't it funny..
ld maybe not feel cheated anymore and could possibly once again > enjoy participating constructively in the community. > Let's see what turns up when I get the ID numbers I requested. If you bought it from somebody else, then there might be a variety of remedies. But here in the states to process a return proof of purchase is required. Again, I'm not insinuating that you didnt buy the phone. I'm just trying to nail down the details required to solve the situation for you. And I do appreciate your patience and your willingness to see some good in the device > I Look forward to hearing from you. > > Regards, > - -Dale > > - ---BEGIN EMAIL THREAD--- > > Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: FreeRunner]] > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:19:34 +1100 > From: Dale Maggee > To: cont...@openmoko.com, s...@openmoko.com, st...@openmoko.com > > Having received absolutely no response whatsoever after more than a > week, even after opening a refund ticker in trac (#36), I resend my > email once again... > > - Original Message > Subject: [Fwd: FreeRunner] > Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:25:12 +1100 > From: Dale Maggee > To: cont...@openmoko.com > CC: s...@openmoko.com, mic...@openmoko.org, st...@openmoko.com > > Having received no response whatsoever to my previous email, I'll send > it again, and add a few more addresses. Hopefully I'll get a reply this > time. Please see below. > > Regards, > - -Dale > > - Original Message > Subject: FreeRunner > Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:35:41 +1100 > From: Dale Maggee > To: cont...@openmoko.com > > Hi, > > Please advise what is the process for getting my money back for my Neo > Freerunner. > > Before I purchased this device almost a year ago, I was told that it > could reliably make and recieve phone calls, as per Steve's email below. > This is not, nor has it ever been the case - The device has *never* > reliably made or recieved phone calls, it's overall stability is > completely sub-par, and the ASU software stack mentioned turned out to > be even less reliable and also slower than the original 2007.2 software > stack. > > I have listened to Openmoko's promises regarding solving the issues, and > these promises have not been met, repeatedly. In addition to this, as > far as I can see, Openmoko's emphasis does not appear to be on stability > or being able to use the device reliably as a phone, you seem to be more > interested in building new frameworks from the ground up than actually > making the device do what I bought it to do. While I'll agree that FSO > may *one day* provide a usefull framework, it is presently far away from > this goal (*still* no PIM!). > > In addition, "a working phone that could be used as an everyday phone" > has a suspend mode, will happily go for more than 4-6 hours without > being attached to a battery charger, and will actually wake up from > suspend mode when appropriate (i.e if somebody calls). Thus this device > does not do what you have told me it would do, even nine months on. > Don't bother trying to tell me that "the suspend problems are fixed in > the .28 kernel", because months after hearing these claims there are > *still* no distros available which use this kernel, making this point moot. > > I apologise for the curt tone of this email, but I have become > increasingly frustrated and disconcerted with this device as time has > gone on, I've repeatedly resisted the urge to post much more > harshly-worded emails on the mailing lists, and I have now come to the > conclusion that I have no option other than to purchase a new phone > which will actually do what it's supposed to do. As such, I will have no > use for the Freerunner, and according to the Australian Fair Trading > laws, I am entitled to a refund under the Fair Trading Act 1999 if the > goods I bought have a fault I could not have known about when I bought > them, or do not do the job I was led to believe they would. The > Freerunner clearly and demonstrably fits both of these criteria. > > As such, please advise how I should go about obtaining my refund. > > Regards, > - -Dale Maggee > > > On 29-Jun-2008, steve wrote: > >> The base software provided with the phone at launch will support >> everyday use. >> >> 1. dialer. >> 2. SMS. >> 3. Contacts. >> >> That was the fundamental goal. Provde a working phone that could be >> used as an everyday phone. >> >> In the background a whole new software suite is being created. ASU. >> >> So between launch ( right now) and sometime in August/september, >> > developers > >>
Re: Ain't it funny..
Hi Dale. I got a note from the people who handle these issues. In looking through our store records we were unable to find any order from you at openmoko.com. That doesn't mean you haven't purchased a phone. If you could, provide me with the details of your purchase. Who you bought it from and when. Also, if you take the battery out you'll see a IMEI number and a serial number. That will help with tracking as well. So send those along as well. Best Regards Steve st...@openmoko.com Dale Maggee wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Guten Tag, Sieg Heil. > > Seriously... You may not have heard of it, but There's a concept that's > been around for a while called "Free speech"... you know, as opposed to > "free beer". > > "Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. So was > Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're in favour > of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, > you're not in favour of free speech." - Noam Chomsky > > I am contributing - contributing to Free Speech, and I'm doing my part > to warn prospective customers against giving their money to thieves. > > If you're not in favour of free speech then I have two words for you: > "Email filter". But I'm not going anywhere. > > > (Note: I know there are quite a few deutschlanders on this list, and my > use of your language is not intended in any way as a slight against your > people or country. On the contrary, I think that you're among the most > beautiful and intelligent people in the world, and your country reflects > that... :) ) > > > jeremy jozwik wrote: > >> seriously... go write the prime minister or something. if your not >> going to contribute your just wasting everyone else's time >> >> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Dale Maggee wrote: >> arne anka wrote: >> >> Bitter much? : ) >> > nope. he's just a troll. > > >> Before I bought My Neo, I was told by OM that it would work as a phone. >> >> Once I got it and said "WTF This doesn't work as a phone!" I was told by >> OM that 2008.8 would. So I waited. >> >> It was worse than 2007.2. I was told that 2008.12 would be much better. >> So I waited. >> >> Was there even any difference? Sure, the animations might have been a >> bit smoother, or something, but it still didn't work as a phone. >> >> When I asked for my money back I was told that it had been too long >> since I placed my order... despite the fact that the only reason I >> waited so long was that I trusted OM when they said that I would >> eventually get a working phone. >> >> >> I contacted Consumer Affairs here in AU. They told me that OM were >> legally bound by our laws (which include a clause giving me the right to >> demand a refund if the item doesn't do what I was led to believe it >> would do). They told me that according to the letter of the law, OM were >> required to give me a refund. They also told me that since they're based >> overseas, there's basically no way to enforce it. >> >> In short: OM Have Lied to me, then violated the consumer protection laws >> they're bound to by selling a Neo to an Australian Citizen by refusing >> to refund my money. That means that *OpenMoko Are THIEVES*. >> >> Anything I say about them is justified. IMO you can't be a troll if >> you're in the right. And I am. I have been defrauded of $400. And so >> have you. The only difference is that I'm not willing to sit around >> pretending that being raped is all fun and games. >> >> > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKA4YGFbVnQRV3OEYRAk0JAKDEiDmdGUttRB9r++kN4fKL9zj6SQCgmDYR > b1k8k42/YLwS2kBxx9dl778= > =6xJM > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will my phone buzz?
If you remove the two tork screws and remove the front cover you will se the board rev. In anycase if you have A5 or A6 you are susceptible to the buzz issue. If you bought 900 and dont experience it it is likely that you are communicating on 1900 which doesnt, according to anecdotal reports, suffer from the buzz symptoms Shachar Shemesh wrote: > Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: >> Shachar Shemesh writes: >> >>> Can anyone tell me how I can find out? Is there some way to look at >>> the board of a phone and tell whether it has the fix? >>> >> >> cat /proc/cpuinfo >> >> If it says 0305 you have V5 and need a fix. >> >> > I'm sorry if I'm asking a silly question. When I do "cat > /proc/cpuinfo" I get "Revision: 24420360", so presumably I'm okay. > Then again, while trying to figure out what field I was supposed to be > looking at, I stumbled upon > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware. From there, it > seems that the user space gets that data from the kernel, which in > turn gets it from the boot loader, which doesn't get it from anywhere > at all hardware related. I've upgraded my boot loader with an image I > downloaded from the Internet (so I could boot from ext2 partitions on > a microsd card). So now I have to wonder whether the fact that it says > "24420360" actually means anything other than "I upgraded my u-boot"? > > I have the debug board, which implicitly means I have the screw driver > needed to open the device (already did once). I was more looking for > something that says "this is the change you need to do in order to fix > the buzz", and then just open the device and have a look whether that > change is already in place. > > Thanks, > Shachar > > P.s. > This is somewhat academic, as I'm fairly certain that my phone is a V6 > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SF/CA BuzzFix Party (Was Re:US Buzz/GPS Fix)
just need to find a guy with the skills Jason Abele wrote: > I am also in the SF Bay area (Menlo Park) and would gladly catch a > buzz fix party anywhere in the Bay Area. > > Its awfully short notice and I don't have the parts or equipment on > hand to do the fix, but I will be at the SuperHappyDevHouse tomorrow > in Oakland: > http://superhappydevhouse.org/SuperHappyDevHouse32 > > But if someone wanted to show up with parts and soldering iron, I'll > have my Neo and play along. > > Jason > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Steve " 'dillo" Okay (Roadknight > Mobility Labs) wrote: >>> From: Doug Jones >>> Date: April 22, 2009 12:51:19 PM PDT >>> To: List for Openmoko community discussion >> Subject: Re: US Buzz/GPS Fix >>> Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion >>> >> >>> +1 >>> >>> I'm also in California. If somebody threw a Buzz Fix party anywhere >>> in California, I would be there. Isn't Openmoko in California too? >>> Fremont Buzz Fix Party, anyone? >>> >>> >>> I do have soldering experience, but not with such small parts. (In >>> my day, everything was the size of a Buick.) But I'm game. >> I'm San Francisco and would also show up for a CA BuzzFix Party if >> somebody threw one. >> For the SF Bay Area, I would suggest a couple places, both in San >> Francisco: >> >> NoiseBridge, a hackerspace that focuses on both hardware and software >> hacks in The Mission. >> PariSoma, a co-working space in SOMA that is the the SF/North Bay >> OpenMoko reselller and where I bought my FR from :) >> >> Steve >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bluetooth spam
http://www.opkg.org/package_61.html Alexey Feldgendler wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:44:32 +0200, Tilman Baumann > wrote: > >> Hehe, I once did this on a ICE train. >> I was bored so I scanned for bluetooth devices. And then send them text >> files. >> >> O group of girls answered. Was really funny. >> Bur did not help me to ge laied tough. :) > > Modern advances in mobile computing technologies still don't get one laid. > Someone needs to work on that. > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bluetooth spam
Hmm.. The possibilities are endless. I imagine, however, that thre might be some media assets, like personal photos, that one would not want to spam around the club... or maybe not..Self promotion at its best. Carlo Minucci wrote: > Evgeny ha scritto: >> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:20 PM, The Digital Pioneer >> wrote: >>> Spam a file? Send it to everyone in range? Why? >>> >> It seems, because he can do it, funny. >> > > exactly :) > > > the true > i have code this application for spread mp3 of my band during live concert > it's cool :) > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [om2009] - send SMS GUI logic
My samsung allows both methods. So when I want to send a broadcast, like "merry christmas" I do the following. 1. Create new message. 2. enter msg. 3. Hit options 4. add people I want to braodcast to.. Then I get to browse through my contects checking off people... 5. hit send. Or I just hit create new mesage. Enter the sms. hit send. get a menu of people to add.. lets see I'll send this to julie and mary, because julie just called me 10 minutes ago and she and mary are out driving around. I do that all the time. And.. when I want to send a message to Sean I can 1. create new msg 2. Hit send 3. add "sean" 4. hit back 5 type in the msg 6. hit send. I use both methods all the time. But then Again I use broadcast probably more than most. Or go to contacts.. find sean, click send a msg, type the msg. hit send or go to inbox, find a msg from sean, hit reply. etc. or go to recent calls, find seans last call to me, hit options, select send a msg... etc etc I guess I use all those methods on a regular basis Joseph Reeves wrote: > My Nokia N96 wants me to select the recipients before I write the > message, and that's a phone that people seem to like... > > After all, I think to myself "I'll send something to François", rather > than "I want to say something, but who shall I send it to?" > > ;-) > > > > 2009/4/15 François TOURDE : >> Le 14349ième jour après Epoch, >> blok...@h0m3.be écrivait: >> >>> first tipe what you want to send , then to who seems more logical . >> I agree with this, even if I don't understand why. I can't find any good >> reason to use this order :) >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
arne anka wrote: >>> development has stopped. period. >>The misrepresentation - which you seem to think is not a >> misrepresentation - in the news coverage is that they're saying >> development >> of open phones at OM has been cancelled, while all that's been decided >> is to >> cancel the GTA03, not development of more open phones. > > since, at least to my information, the gta03 was the only phone being > developped, halting devel of gta03 meant halting all phone devlopment. > and i tried to avoid the use of "cancel", since to me it has some finite > touch about it, while "stop" means, it can start again. > > according to steve mosher's mail there's ongoing work, development if you > will, to kind of fork from the gta02 -- i can't recall having heard of > _serious_ plans to do so before. Ok last words. yes, some of the plans are forks or follow-ons. some are not. Finally, now you are changing the terms of the debate from " in development" to "Serious plans" Let me define serious and put an end to speculations. If we spend time and money on it it's serious. Time and money is being spent. (Ok now dont shift the debate to how much time and how much money counts as serious. or dont complain that I didnt tell you everything and therefore you were forced to speculate. ) In any case, We do agree that this discussion is better taken up elsewhere. Come to the Gta03 list and make some positive contributions, or healthy criticisms. I know you are passionate about this stuff as am I. I'll talk as transparently as I can over there with people who want to move things forward. come and join us. and peace. last words from me here on this stuff, hope to see you on the new list. > > > after all, i think this thread is rather more noise in the list and for > most people subscribed rather annoying (listing the different links to > news articles and fretting over more or less wrong interpretations in the > news has been so from the start). > so, unless something really important comes up, i think, we can stop here, > eh, cancel ;-) > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
arne anka wrote: >>> development has stopped. period. >> There other phones "in the pipeline" >> Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at >> different target markets. Not smart phones, but phones nontheless. > > the first time i hear that. > even the statements quotes so excessively mentioned only a plan b, being > _not_ a phone. > > if my definition od development doesn't fit your's - not my problem (and > no, i wasn't speaking of software development). If your definition of development doesnt match mine then we are not even communicating. If I dont know your definition then you can change it sentence to sentence. Ever read alice in wonderland? Since I have a clear picture of "in development" and since I am interested in communication rather than gainsaying, I'll explain. The development process goes through these stages: 1. Concept 2. Pilot study, prototype 3. Business plan review 4. Engineering review. 5. Project kick off. 6. product delivery. If we were stopping phone development we would stop all activity in 1-6. Two products-- FR and B-- are in stages 5 & 6. Given the state of FR software I dont consider it to be "finished" yet. WRT to the other phones in development All have passed stage 1. 4 have passed stage 2 and are in stages 3 and 4. Perhaps I can make it this simple. We have on staff a top notch Industrial designer. he is paid to do designs. Concepts, sketches, 3D renderings, and physical models. It is a critical function to product development. And it's not cheap. If we stopped phone development we would tell him to stop all design work on new phones. We haven't. In fact, I just held his latest design in my hand 2 weeks ago and now we will proceed to carry out steps 3 and 4. There is no PROMISE it will make it to step 5. my business review could KILL IT. engineering review could Kill it. If we were stopping development I wouldnt even DO the business review. Now, you didnt know about this stuff. But you defend a headline that speculated about facts not in evidence. In your first post you said you saw nothing that indicated you were wrong. what do you say now? It seems to me you have said this: 1. I say OM is stopping development because I see nothing to indicate otherwise. 2. Now I see things that indicate otherwise, so now I can say "first I heard of this!" You made the classic mistake of taking the absence of evidence as evidence of absence. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
arne anka wrote:
>>> phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
>> it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
>> development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is
>> not a successor to the GTA02.
>
> i never said, it has to be a successor to gta02.
> the only other phone in the pipeline had the name gta03 and its
> development has stopped. period.
There other phones "in the pipeline"
Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at
different target markets. Not smart phones, but phones nontheless.
I can detail these, each of which is in a different stage of the
product development pipeline, each has various pre conditions that need
to be met before they can proceed to the next stage of development, but
see my comments below about the argument clinic.
>
>
>>> gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.
>>I'm sure not everybody agrees with you that bug fixes or improvements
>> to existing features is not development. Perhaps you could clarify what
>> you
>> think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).
>
>
> this is merely hairsplitting (and, no offense, just because you think i am
> wrong does not mean you are right), but here goes:
> one or more of the following
>
> - newer/better hardware
See above.
> - improved functionality (f ex wrt standby time, power consumption)
I believe that OM2009 slated for release in the June time frame has a
good chance of showing improved functionality. One Issue with OM2009
( the paroli work) was that it catered for differences between the GTA02
and GTA03. The design was targeted at GTA03 and utilized certain features
( like a hardware volume button) that were not present on GTA02. With
the demise of GTA03 the design becomes more focused and I would assume
more easy to execute and test.
> - different device
See above
>
> i am sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of
> development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it serve?
> i said it how i see it and so far no information has convinced me that i
> am wrong here.
why define terms before an Argument?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
So to answer your question. Defining "development" up front ("i am
sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of
> development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it
serve?") Serves a very important purpose. It sets the conditions under
which parties would admit they were wrong or that their beliefs were
falsified. It forms the basis of having a rational debate. everything
else is just naysaying.
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
___
Openmoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Time for press release published on w.om.c ?
we are on it. If you have specific criticism please vent away or constructive suggestions as well. PR was pretty busy getting corrections done all over the place so now they focus on getting the press stuff up to date. Olivier Berger wrote: > Hi. > > I think www.openmoko.com deserves some updates maybe ? > > http://www.openmoko.com/press.html in particular... allright, slashdot > is an authorized information source, but... > > My 2 cents, ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how long freerunner will be produce ?
Thanks, Don't be worried. Just keep in touch with me about your requirements and we can plan accordingly. Mickael LABROUSSE wrote: > Thanks for answering me. > > For the moment we have bought to one of your distributors providing us a > very good price. > It's very difficult for us to estimate how many GTA02 we are going to > sell because it is part of a full offer. > It can be be 50 or 100 or 500 per year. > > The other problem is that for some others reasons we don't think really > sell so much this year but really start in 2010. > I a little bit worried for our future with the GTA02. > > Thanks, > Mickael. > > Steve Mosher a écrit : >> Hi. >> >> Mickael LABROUSSE wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I work in a french compagny making up a produce based on the freerunner. >>> >>> Sorry to open a new thread about this but I read everywhere on the >>> Internet that Openmoko cancels gta03 and sometimes news talk about >>> gta02 too !! >>> >> GTA03 was postponed. There is anew list on openmoko.org that will be >> dedicated to a community driven definition for this product. The >> whole product process will be opened up. >> >>> So a simple question how long freerunner will be produce ?? >>> >> As sean noted we have a good level of inventory for the retail demand >> that we currently see. In addition, we have Kits of components that >> can sustain production through 2009. Because we have some major >> potential customers we also monitor parts availability in case volume >> ramps dramatically. Go ahead and contact me at st...@openmoko.com and >> we can talk about your specific requirements, volume, pricing, timing. >> >>> Thanks a lot. >>> Mickael >>> >>> ___ >>> Openmoko community mailing list >>> community@lists.openmoko.org >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >>> >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how long freerunner will be produce ?
Hi. Mickael LABROUSSE wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I work in a french compagny making up a produce based on the freerunner. > > Sorry to open a new thread about this but I read everywhere on the > Internet that Openmoko cancels gta03 and sometimes news talk about gta02 > too !! GTA03 was postponed. There is anew list on openmoko.org that will be dedicated to a community driven definition for this product. The whole product process will be opened up. > > So a simple question how long freerunner will be produce ?? As sean noted we have a good level of inventory for the retail demand that we currently see. In addition, we have Kits of components that can sustain production through 2009. Because we have some major potential customers we also monitor parts availability in case volume ramps dramatically. Go ahead and contact me at st...@openmoko.com and we can talk about your specific requirements, volume, pricing, timing. > > Thanks a lot. > Mickael > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Leather case for Neo freeruner now 29 Euros
Matthias Apitz wrote: > El día Tuesday, April 07, 2009 a las 01:15:52PM +0200, David Reyes Samblas > Martinez escribió: > >> HI >> well topic says all >> Now the Openmoko leather case is at 29 Euros Vat included + Shipping costs >> at www.truxbrain.com/shop > > Yes, the topic says at all: NOW for 29 Euros (and maybe tomorrow for > 1 Euro); it sounds that folks are leaving a sinking ship :-( Well, look at all the facts before drawing conclusions and speculating. 1. Tuxbrain is leading the pack by reworking their existing stock from A6 to A7 quality. 2. Tuxbrain is hosting rework parties for customers who bought phones. 3. They reduced the price on their leather cases. Those are the facts. Its sounds like they are in the crows nest looking to the future, not jumping ship. Ohoy! > > I have encountered in the FR the toy I was always looking for: a UNIX > server with X11 for my pocket or belt which also can make phone calls, > Internet, Wifi, GPS, ... > > I'm one of those using it as their only and daily phone device... but, > where to go now in the future? well, the device will continue serving some > time, > maybe even years as it is, but after that? > > Thx > > matthias ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Shawn Rutledge wrote: > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:34 AM, wrote: >> Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new >> customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For >> the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO. > > I agree. If the GTA03 was going to be less capable anyway, we can > live without it. It's too bad having to put up with the Glamo, but oh > well. We continue to look at a glamoectomy; > > How much longer can GTA02's remain in production? Any impending part > obsolescence to worry about? I would hazard that we see no issues through the end of 2009. If a part goes out of production, then you have a 'grey market' that lasts for some while. As the grey market drains you ordinarily would look to do a redesign. For example, remove glamo and switch GSM chips. That just an example folks so don't start down the path of defining GTA02+ > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
ri...@happyleptic.org wrote: >>> When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more >>> support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ? >> because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a >> company stops its entire development of new products in a product line... > > Yes. But as a user, I would be more saddened if Sean had annouced that gta03 > was just around the corner and would be so different from the previous > products > that all support for those would be discontinued. > > I may sound old, but I think that the FR hardware (as well as the n810 > hardware for that matter) is more than enough, and the inovation must now > comes > from the software part. The phone downsides are not in the hardware, so let's > settle here and improve the software. From one perspective because FR is open you really don't have an EOL. unlike closed products. yes, there will come a day when certain parts are not available, but solving that problem is much more manageable than an entire new design. > > Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new > customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For > the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Like I said, if it bleeds, it leeds. When you have a major announcement such as seans you have two options: 1. Try to control the press response beforehand. Brief the press beforehand, do a press release, release an official statement on the same day as the event. A controlled blast. 2. Drop that bombshell, some of the press will get it wrong, and then use that opportunity. In my mind the community had earned the right to be the first to know. So, I picked option 2. Let Sean tell the community first and then I will go out and correct any misunderstanding. Explaining our position FIRST on the community list, and then to the press and the rest of the world. Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:00:04 +0200 ri...@happyleptic.org said: > >> -[ Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka ] Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message. >>> so? >>> phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped. >> The project is _delayed_, and openmoko still want to build new phones in the >> future, and most importantly do not give up building open devices (go for the >> open hair dryer! :-)). >> >> When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more >> support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ? > > because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a > company stops its entire development of new products in a product line... in > fact its ONLY product that is publically known (development meaning the next > improved version) it does make new. it matters. it is the same as is nokia > stopped making ALL phones and decided to start making shoes instead. that'd > make > news!. :) these things create a life of their own - if they are correct or > not. the media interprets it in the way to make it as sensational as possible. > sensation sells to readers. readers mean ads ... and ads are revenue. if half > the worlds news was reported realistically in proportion.. you would have a > pretty boring media. :) > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 or 3d7k?
Ah good question. I'll explain below. One of the final twists in the GTA03 history Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: > Steve Mosher writes: >> Come on in the waters fine. > > Can't resist to ask, what's the deal with the name? ;-) > > In Mar 2 all references to "GTA03" were changed[1] to "3d7k" in the > andy-tracking linux branch. Is it now called GTA03 again? One of the minor issues that Wolfgang and I had with the naming paradigm of of products was the use of what I call "secret decoder rings" GTA stood for: Gsm;Ti;Agps. Ha, and everybody who reads wikipedia thinks it stood for Gnu Telephony Appliance. That's one of the issues I have with secret decoder ring project names. The other problem is this: numbered sequences. 01,02,03,04. What does that imply? for some it just implies "gets better" but it could also mean "the one following" For example, we had a roadmap with a GTA05 on it, but the GTA05 was a very simple phone, 05 meant---comes after 04 on the schedule. You follow? Now GTA03 was redined in such a way that it didnt have wifi and didnt have GPS, and it had a different GSM chip. So, what do we call it: GS03? GS01? secret decoder rings always lead to these kind of problems. So we took a decision to create the following Naming structure: 1. Specific Hardware device: Non representational sequence of alpha numerics. 2. Project Name: Internal Code name, like "everest" 3. Marketing name. So, Andy went out and picked out a licence plate 3d7k to stand for the specific hardware design he was targeting. It's basically the name you would see in drivers. So one project, say "everest" could use 3d7k and add lets say and image from SHR and that project would ship with a marketing name of "FreeRunner SHR" for example. And another project, Lets say "diablo" could use 3d7k and add a android image, and ship as the product "FreeRunner Android" I use these ONLY as examples.. the basic point was you had a naming structure that allowed multiple projects (HW+SW) to use the same hardware. It was merely a housecleaning exercise that allowed Wolfgang and I to decouple the hardware naming ( which the drivers needed) from the project naming ( which engineering and marketing needed) and allowed me to do product naming ( FreeRunner) without forcing a rewrite of drivers at the last minute. clear as mud I suppose. > > > > [1] the commit message: > > commit 81da012eb0fff1bc5f129202d0c12b1d63a7761a > Author: Andy Green > Date: Mon Mar 2 18:51:56 2009 + > > rename-gta03-dropped-3d7k-new-moniker.patch > > GTA03 project is dropped, long live Openmoko 3d7k project. > > This name was literally generated by picking the first character > of the next four car license plates to pass by I am told. > > The should catch all GTA03 instances except the machine name. > > I registered a new machine name since the 3d7k is different > from original GTA03, the machine number is 2120. > > Signed-off-by: Andy Green > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Fernando Martins wrote: > Steve Mosher wrote: >> And you are right the community can help: >> 1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain. >> 2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or >> spreading the word. >> you get the idea. > My biggest itch was the frustration of getting a phone which, at that > time, was not yet, say, a smooth phone, and still today has some rough > edges, depending on distribution of course. I think this common > experience is now acknowledged as what is hurting more the FR (leading > to the slashdot post, but I'm also sure it can succeed and your recent > posts are very convincing to me) > > Although I'm a programmer (C, Python), right now I can only spare a few > hours a week which makes it difficult for me to be effective. Any > suggestion how to best put my small resources at use? How much > investment would it be needed to work on phone specific functions? I > know this is the bazaar, but I miss a bit the cathedral to be more > focused and effective. A todo list, who's doing what, change logs,... > What's the status of FSO?? Maybe I have to explore better but there is a > lot of info how there, spread all over, and too often not up to date. > Working on documentation is also fine for me, but what is the most > needed to choose from? What I would do is get in contact with the folks working on a specific distribution ( SHR for example) or specific piece of infrastructure Paroli, tichey,FSO, kernel and ask them these questions. The lack of a "todo" list and the lack of focused development has also been a frustration for me. It means development happens like an untended garden grows. But look what grew that we never imagined. > > Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
If it bleeds, it leeds. I'll alert PR to these publications and we will get the story right. Until then the community should just pound on them. An Army of Davids. Comment, link to seans video, link to my Video. Steve Michael Tansella wrote: > On Tuesday 07 April 2009 00:24:34 Steve Mosher wrote: >> production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address >> that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production >> continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that >> we can focus >> on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things. >> Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like >> a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain >> available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009) >> as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner. >> That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03. > > I think the press didn't understand the intention of Sean Moss-Pultz at Open > Expo. If I google openmoko I met many wrong topics: > > The pages are in german but the messages are: > Openmoko stops development of free smartphones. > Linux smartphone openmoko failed > Project Freerunner will not be continued > > on chip.de (03.04.2009) they even say: > "after Neo 1973 there will be no more Openmoko smartphone", they even claim > to > know Plan B is a navigation system > > http://www.silicon.de/mittelstand/0,39038986,41002613,00/aus+fuer+linux_handy+openmoko.htm > http://www.chip.de/news/OpenMoko-Aus-fuer-Linux-Handys_35990484.html > http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1237229080902 > > It's really annoying to read this. But I am happy to see that where it was > possible the community has commented the articles. Anyway it doesn't put a > good light on Openmoko. > > Michael > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Hi Joseph, Your project and projects like yours were one of the principal motivations behind the decision to focus on FR. GTA03 as defined would not have met your needs: no wifi, no GPS. Comments below inlined address your other concerns Joseph Reeves wrote: >> Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out. > > Steve, at the OpenExpo Sean refered to the Dash navigator as a > "dashtraction" from the serious business of Openmoko. To be specific he said that Dash took 90% of our resources. That forms the heart of the argument to characterize it as a distraction.. perhaps the better word would be DIVERSION. How will "Plan > B" (which is presumably not a distraction but a means of improving ROI > for FIC) avoid becoming thought of as Dash2? Project B is not a dash like diversion of resourse. The prototype engineering didnt even rise to half the level of a EVT run for a phone. That's been paid for long ago. Sunk cost. So we have two choices for the hardware team working on GTA03: A: let them continue and they run out of resources 1/3 the way through the project ensuring failure. B. Keep them relatively intact and have them work to cost down project B and bring it to market. and then transition to a more well defined GTA03. Openmoko is not a part of FIC anymore we spun out in 2008. Having said that, Project B, like all new category devices is a calculated risk. In my 11 years at Creative labs I did nothing but bring new category products to market. It's hard, but it's not impossible. Finishing GTA03 as it was defined, given our resources, was mathematically impossible. I dont know anything more distracting that trying to prove that 2+2=5. So, given the choice between what I know to be impossible and what I know to possible, I'll pick the possible everytime. so would you. > > Thanks for your emails on the subject so far, > > Joseph > > > > 2009/4/7 Steve Mosher : >> >> Gerald A wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost >>> to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were >>> some good points here. >>> >>> Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I >>> have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope >>> we can make it work. >>> >>> Lothar -- new comments are inline. >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens >>> wrote: >>>>> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens < >>>>> lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have >>>>> developed, but I virtually could >>>>> develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for >>>>> a rent to let one of the >>>>> team do outstanding tests. >>>>> >>>>> Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively? >>>> I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept >>>>> is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But >>>>> based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard. >>>>> >>>> Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a >>>> fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to >>>> play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a >>>> really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the >>>> formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry >>>> about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is >>>> higher to think about jumping over and just DO it. >>> >>> Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final >>> production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build "modular >>> kits" so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but >>> translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a >>> consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about >>> the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't >>> available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The >>> concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but >>> it's something to think about. >>
GTA03 List now open at openmoko.org
Come on in the waters fine. Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Gerald A wrote: > Hi all, > I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost > to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were > some good points here. > > Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I > have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope > we can make it work. > > Lothar -- new comments are inline. > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens > wrote: > >> >>> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens < >>> lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de> wrote: >>> >>> Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have >>> developed, but I virtually could >>> develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for >>> a rent to let one of the >>> team do outstanding tests. >>> >>> Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively? >> > >> I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept >>> is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But >>> based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard. >>> >> Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a >> fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to >> play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a >> really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the >> formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry >> about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is >> higher to think about jumping over and just DO it. > > > Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final > production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build "modular > kits" so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but > translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a > consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about > the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't > available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The > concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but > it's something to think about. Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out. > > > >> Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete >>> in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very >>> small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing >>> thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a >>> hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs, >>> when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have been >>> practical too (we can get >1000 more closed pieces from company X, while we >>> can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know. >>> >> Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a >> GSM module for sample :-) >> >> Today I have searched for a GSM module and indeed found one with a complete >> ARM based Linux stack. It would be much too expensive, but when having only >> the next planned GSM module that will appear in the phone, one could test it >> on a standard pc. Or even participate in GSM related development only. > > > I love the idea of being able to mock up hardware, as it lets the software > move forward too. But if our test platform can't be translated into a > suitable form factor, it might be a waste. YUP. Just to review the GTA03. At one stage the WIFI and GPS had to be removed because it didnt fit in the case. If "thin" is in, then using a module is out, for the most part. How thin is thin? Typical marketing answer would be "thinner than the iPhone" but obviously some fat phones ship > > >> I had an idea about my car radio. The idea came because I use my Neo to >> transmit music over bluetooth, then over a FM transmitter to the radio. This >> is bad quality. >> There are really much entusiasts building their own carPC in double DIN >> factor or similar - even small PC barebones. Why not equip it with a GSM >> module to become a real handsfree carPC + phone. They will benefit from such >> a module and propably participate in development. On of our early partners, in fact, was designing such a carPC and wanted to use FR as a dev platform. Alas they demanded a different processor ( Intel) so that deal didnt go through. >> >> Open the development by also selling parts of a phone for the hobby >> electronics would increase the audience and the feedback. >> I don't know how this component has to be deliverded, but I think it must >> be compilant to some law. > > > The current phone stuff already passes those laws. Would it be possible to > adapt them, on the electronic side? I have no doubt. Steve or someone on the > OM side might be ab
Re: Slashdotted
Fernando Martins wrote: > Steve Mosher wrote: >> Thanks Anthony. >> >> For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this >> or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position >> is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then >> fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold >> and find a way to involve the community more in its development. >> >> > I'm not a marketing guy, but I am somewhat surprised not to see more > references about this aspect. There is talk about products and about > methods. All that discussion on hardware development made it clear that > OM needs to increase market or gain share to achieve economies of scale. > I can understand that market aspects might not come to the front, but > maybe the community could also help here. First and foremost I try to get the word out to the community. For that I try to talk about the engineering aspects of things, as best I can since I put my complier down years ago. Then I discuss the marketing aspects of things. Search my posts and you'll find the comments on marketing. yes, its true we need to increase market share. My job is to size what I think is reasonable. To fund GTA03 I would have to TRIPLE sales overnight. If you look at the economic drivers in our channel, basically it cash constrained at the inlet, you'll understand why I would not project a tripling of volume. Further, increasing the sales this much overnight would not even be feasible from a cash flow standpoint. It takes money to buy inventory and to market. So, I picked a more modest growth projection. A projection based on our entry to the Embedded market. Thousands of developers who never even heard of us. ramping to volume is only possible by a reallocation and yes de allocation of resources from certain areas. And you are right the community can help: 1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain. 2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or spreading the word. you get the idea. > > From another post I understand that you are also going to niche markets > that need custom/open phones, which looks like a sensible approach. But > could the GTA02 be made interesting to the general public to be sold > together with a telecom subscription? if not, is there a GTA02+ that > could do it? The telecom play is a tough one. 1. The tests you have to go through cost on the order of 700K 2. Your CUSTOMER is really the product marketing manager of the telco. They are driven to monetize the 3G network they set up. They are not especially dedicated to open source as an ideal. The niche market play is one where we see the most traction. If I want to ramp to volume, I'm going to pick the hill where I have traction and not the slippery slope of a telco play. Crawl, walk run. > > I have the impression that people are already using the phones in many > different ways. Some do it in obvious ways for them which might not be > so obvious to the majority. How about collecting these use cases and see > how you can grow the current specific FR market from here, or gain > market share from the general phone market. Yup that's our impression and the plan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ Our launch into these areas happened march 31st WRT the general phone market, I'd say we are content to have the android distribution cover that demand. That effort is being carried out independently of us. I see that as pure upside business. In brazil for example, we see a market for 13 million android phones. Do I put this in my forecast? No. Will our business change overnight if it materializes? yes. > > Regards, > Fernando > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Hi bob. A couple points below. thanks for your continued interest. robert lazarski wrote: > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Lalo Martins wrote: >> quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200: >> This is getting ridiculous. Now the misreportage is spreading through the blogosphere: ... >>> in what respect a mis-reportage? >>> that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half >>> a line at the bottom ... >> The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner >> was cancelled. That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out, >> what's there to cancel? But I believe it was said explicitly that >> production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want >> one, buzz or not) >> >> best, >> Lalo Martins > > Talk is cheap. The GT03 was announced and canceled, As an open company we take great pains to disclose as much as possible. Throughout the development of GTA03 when people asked me what it was and when would it ship I took great pains to explain ( as did wolfgang) that it may not ship at all. In closed companies they have closed caskets. For us its more like an irish wake. Every company I have ever worked for has had to kill products. usually we just take them out back and shoot them and never speak about it. But we have to talk about it. First because we were open enough to talk about it when it was still in design, second because our commitment to openness demands it, and third because others who want to create open companies can learn from our experience. a tentative A7 > release was announced, canceled and replaced with a 5 point plan or > something , The 5 points are conditions that must be met for me to release the A7 that are sitting comfortably in their boxes in the factory. The delay caused by the factory being off for CNY is past. The final checks on the image and ALSA states is done. Now I'm working with disty to plan its entry into the market. so I certainly wouldn't be surprised if neither the A7 nor > plan b happen at this point. You don't fire or create conditions for > the most important kernel / hardware / UI guys to leave if you have > growth in mind. Something new may happen, but IMHO its time to at > least consider that what you see is what you get. It's exactly because we have growth in mind that we had to make the cuts we did. the suicide path was to continue 3 projects when the resources available can only deliver on the two more modest projects. here is how it works. You have 3 projects: 1. FreeRunner: requires .5X 2. Project B: requires X 3. GTA03 requires 3X. You have 2X resources. Pick your projects. If you pick door number 3, you have just picked failure. Couple that with these facts. #3 is has no wifi and no GPS and costs 499. Looks pretty clear that if you want growth you better do a little pruning. Is the growth path a straight line? nope. But if we set goals we have a chance of meeting and then deliver, I'm confident that our unique experiment will draw additional resources. At early stages growth is never funded by cash flow. > > The one thing for sure is that OM a company generally has a bad > reputation at this point with all this recent press - unfairly or not. > If they can overcome that image and also release new products with a > skeleton staff, then I'll be pleasantly surprised - like many of us, > I'd rather not have my time spent go down the tubes. > > - R > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that we can focus on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things. Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009) as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner. That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03. Lalo Martins wrote: > quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200: > >>> This is getting ridiculous. Now the misreportage is spreading through >>> the blogosphere: >>> ... >> in what respect a mis-reportage? >> that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half >> a line at the bottom ... > > The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner > was cancelled. That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out, > what's there to cancel? But I believe it was said explicitly that > production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want > one, buzz or not) > > best, >Lalo Martins ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
I have an official statement out. I'll get on the corrections asap steve. community! chime in. on these sites Lalo Martins wrote: > This is getting ridiculous. Now the misreportage is spreading through > the blogosphere: > http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=4214 > which was picked up by Giz and Engadget: > http://i.gizmodo.com/5200285/openmoko-cancels-freerunner-the-original- > open-source-linux-phone > http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/06/openmoko-freerunner-canceled-staff- > slashed/ > > I'd strongly recommend OpenMoko puts out a press release or something... > > best, >Lalo Martins ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: CAD files and gCAD3D
Maybe Tully knows Lothar Behrens wrote: > Hi, > > I have just seen on the page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CAD_models > that > gCAD3D could be used for previewing the CAD models. > > Does it support boolean operations to derive other housings? > > Is this tool propably usable to export in other formats? > > I have tried to play with blender and it is a great animation tool. It > also is relatively > easy to use when some introductory videos or screen casts are followed. > > Also this application runs on Mac OS X I am mostly running. > > Thanks > > Lothar > > -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de > Lothar Behrens > Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2 > 73252 Lenningen > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)
I'll ask Tully OMs resident ME genius to have a look. A long while back when Joerg and I were doing the GTA04 we had decided to use the GTA02 case (with mods) for the project and were playing with several camera Ideas. Tully is looking at that for me now ( I had some new ideas) so I'll ask him to have a look see at this stuff as well. Steve Lothar Behrens wrote: > About the camera issue: > > I have read something about a small computer base case that has a jack > or bus system ontop of it's > case. That way it is extendable with cameras or what ever. I don't > know where it was but it was cool. > > Why not think about a back case that includes a cam and using contacts > in the inner housing to connect > the cam to, say an I2C bus or even an USB hub (USB2)? > > If an USB jack is mounted that way, such a 'pimp my neo with a cam > module' would propably a gatget > one could buy. (Expected he want's a camera :-) > > The usual neo looks as before when this replacement back case isn't > used and when used, there may also > the possibility to add an extra battery. > > I asked some time ago, if it would be practical to have a database > application on the neo > (Database applications practical on mobile device ?). > > There was an interest, that may also involved to have a camera option: > http://www.thehumanjourney.net/ > Joseph Reeves argued that it would be very interesting to contribute > or evaluate. As he is a member at the above link, > the 'archaeology service' would propably benefit from such a cam > gatget with extra battery, because they seem > to make much pictures in the archaeology work, thus they need also > long live usability. > > If the gatget didn't really be implementable with the USB connector in > mind, it would be an option to connect with > bluetooth and only connect the extra battery. > > Advantages: > > One gatget to track GPS locations, > correlate directly the pictures with the GPS positions (I am > struggling with my extra cam and the GPS traces), > propably add voice notes that are GPS correlated. > > Development: > > The standard back case, could be used to mod it as a first prototype. > I have seen a post with pictures that show something > with an extra battery. (The second last picture from here: > http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/gallery/views.php?start=20) > That could be done colleraborately. The bluetooth camera: > http://digitalcameras.engadget.com/2006/04/02/kodaks-bluetooth-camera-module/ > > Design: > > As thicker than one battery, > As thicker than a cam module, > As thicker than the supporting electronics. > > Using BRLCAD could be an option to create a preview, when possible > components with their sizes are choosen. > > The database that may be the backend should be discussed separately. I > am practicing the idea of model driven development and fast prototyping. > I have seen wxWidgtes on my neo, but not yet found the time to start > porting my code to it :-( > > But prototyping from a desktop would be possible for creating python > CRUD applications at the end (code generation). > > Lothar > > Am 06.04.2009 um 10:29 schrieb David Reyes Samblas Martinez: > >> I finally see your face :), I also add great voice >> Great excerpt of what's going on there in OM thanks steve. >> As Risto sais way to go :) >> >> 2009/4/6 Steve Mosher : >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ >>> >>> Hair straightener required. >>> >>> Risto H. Kurppa wrote: >>>> I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from >>>> Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his >>>> thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - >>>> this >>>> is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up >>>> the good work, we're looking forward to see the free&open >>>> hair-straightener with WLAN :) >>>> >>>> r >>>> >>>> >>> ___ >>> Openmoko community mailing list >>> community@lists.openmoko.org >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >>> >> >> >> -- >> David Reyes Samblas Martinez >> http://www.tuxbrain.com >> Open ultraportable & embedded solutions >> Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino >> Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! >> >> _
Re: Slashdotted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ Hair straightener required. Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from > Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his > thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this > is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up > the good work, we're looking forward to see the free&open > hair-straightener with WLAN :) > > r > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Thanks Risto. It really is a function of the sharpened focus of the company. In my particular case, if we back up to the september october time frame I was working on doing the requirements and specs for the GTA04 with joerg, looking at the glamoetctomy with werner, Doing FR stuff and project B. So now I have a much clearer focus and ability to tend to community matters. Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from > Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his > thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this > is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up > the good work, we're looking forward to see the free&open > hair-straightener with WLAN :) > > r > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Hey tony! 好朋友 Glad to see your comments. Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) wrote: > Steve Mosher wrote: >> Good comments All. >> >> Let me inline some answers/explanations. >> >> Lothar Behrens wrote: >>> Hi, >> I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units. >> you unit test them. Then you do your first integration. >> You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you >> hit the compile button? > > Yes, this pretty much true, and you have to hit the button in time, or > so some the package in that make might phase out (like GTA01 PMU > PCF50606), and then you have spent another run of money to enable the > make button hit-able till mass production again. > >> So what's the result if you don't use a waterfall model in >> hardware development. Whats the cost if you find a requirements defect >> or a design defect ( glamo? )when you do that prototype run? 50K >> minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy? >> ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI. And >> see my comments below about design and diving into peanut butter. >> > > Werner just replied, maybe he could share more about his painful direct > contact experience with chip vendor ;) > > In hardware, specification/datasheet is not always correct (or always > not correct). People may found a lot interesting component datasheet > with powerful function (the "dream chip") could solve specific design > problem, but when OM direct contact local distributor, following > scenario always happens: > > * the chip never put mass production before, or we are the only user > interested that chip, need bare with long lead-time and bad payment deal > > * the chip specific model we want not manufactured yet > > * the chip specific function not work, or could not work stability, even > the datasheet > > * Our quantities (market size) too small, ignore us (this is better > case, we sometimes got already married with some solution then after a > while, vendor ask for divorce ;) ) > > OM might have other internal issues, but external hardware game rules > tough as well. I don't think other company could really open hardware > not only legal issue (design specification with customer/contract with > telcom) but they got Open mind set to solve open hardware related > process issue like OM done before. Yes. I think one of the challenges that some people really dont understand very well are all these little nagging details.having worked for a big company I'm just used to going in and getting the parts I needed when I needed them. In 11 years there were only a few cases were I had to go begging for parts.. RAM on the VoodooII from silcon magic, and DDR memory on the Nv10 I think from infineon.. oh and 1.8 toshiba drives after the ipod shipped, bastards.. ah and tantalum caps once or twice. >> or capacitive, keyboard or touch.-- ALL signs to me of a lack of >> appreciation for the complexity and cost involved in doing hardware. I >> got a hammer your problem must be a nail. I'll give you > > And each component we have to verify it's hardware functionality and > compatibility with Open source, and most of time we have to spent extra > resource to build a full GPL'ed driver if vendor only have proprietary > Windows or some binary vendor version. > > This also cause the difficulty when verification hardware in time, > because we need build our own driver to test vendor's hardware. Usually > only hardware vendor could have 1 or 2 FAE port driver for us, and with > our latest kernel and open policy (release driver early even before > product manufactured). > >> and energy is spent on this "solution" In the end, marketing looks at >> that and says "who took the fucking camera out!" that's not an actual >> example, but you get the idea. > > Yes, freeze idea and snapshot it in time is art of products ;) > >>> Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively? >> In one sense this is trivally true. hardware development is >> inherently collaborative. But I suppose you mean is it possible >> to do it in an open fashion. It maybe. But if the requirements process >> and design process is not rigorous and well defined you end up >> with expensive implementation problems. And if you don't have team >> consensus, then it's very problematic. Forking software is easy. >> Forking hardware is forking hard. The best example I can use is >> forking ASIC design. You can do a big chip with lots of functionality >> and then fork off 'defeatured&#x
Re: Slashdotted
no i didnt upload that video. I relented today and got a youtube account to upload my video, so I'm still fumbling around with youtube. Kosa wrote: > Thanks fo that. > > Just a recomendation. I don't know know if you yourself (hope that's well > written since > english is not my first language) upload that video, but I think it could be > a > good idea to > rename it so it includes "openmoko" on the title. It wuld be easier to find > for > those who > are not on the list, but have heard about OM. > > Kosa > > - Un mundo mejor es posible - > > Steve Mosher escribió: >> Thanks Anthony. >> >> For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this >> or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position >> is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then >> fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold >> and find a way to involve the community more in its development. >> >> inlined below find an advanced copy of my official comments. >> stuff I send to the press. As a side note on this, these official >> comments grew out of posts I made here first. During sean's presentation >> someone commented that our approach to open business was the most >> radical he had seen. It is. and it presents great challenges for all >> of us. >> >> Seans video: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxI&feature=PlayList&p=96FB31DA6E4012DA&index=1 >> >> I'll have my video up in a bit, an interview. >> >> Here's the advance copy of my comments to the press. >> >> >> During the last week Openmoko has had two great events. First the >> Embedded System Conference, ESC) and second, the OpenExpo in Bern. Those >> events could not have been more well timed for us because we had two >> major announcements to make: a thrust into the embedded systems market >> and the announcement of a new device, not a phone but an entirely new >> open device. >> The launch into the embedded systems market is a case of the market >> finding the manufacturer. We designed the FreeRunner as an open phone. >> After it launched we started to receive requests from customers we never >> dreamed existed: Innovators who wanted to change the case or add in >> additional hardware. People who wanted to resell the phone with their >> software added. The collective creativity outside the company, dwarfed >> the creativity within the company. Our customers truly are an army of >> Davids. To seize this opportunity we decided to open up our CAD files, >> and open up our schematics. That way these new-found markets can develop >> for themselves products that we don’t have the resources to develop. So, >> over the next few months you’ll see us make a more focused effort in >> this market space. As a platform for embedded development, nothing >> compares to the FreeRunner: Open schematics; Open CAD; Open hardware; >> Open software. >> At OpenExpo we had a keynote speech in the business track. This gave us >> the opportunity to explain some of the change in focus we’ve made in the >> past month. Our CEO Sean Moss-Pultz delivered the presentation and I’ll >> take some space here to explain in a bit more detail the background >> behind these exciting changes. Sean discussed three things: >> 1. Our successes. >> 2. Our mistakes. >> 3. Our challenges >> It’s vitally important when addressing the challenges of the future to >> assess and understand your past success. Openmoko launched its first >> developer phone in July of 07 and the FreeRunner shipped in July of 08. >> Sales tripled. Not only did we build a phone; we built a company and >> distribution network in the process. We also helped others build their >> own businesses around the FreeRunner. Our takeaway lessons were as >> follows: Open Products can be successful in the marketplace; being Open >> multiplies everyone’s business opportunities. For our mistakes we >> identified these: Open Product design is very hard as there is a >> tendency to make too many changes. Our culture is not authoritarian. We >> also tended to view hardware with a “software” mentality, as something >> that could be easily changed or patched. >> Our challenge going forward is to seize the opportunity we see in the >> embedded space and push forward the cause of open hardware. And we had >> to make some choices about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were >> essentially three projects going on inside OpenMoko: ongoing support of >> FreeRunner
Re: Just Got Buzz Fixed
not so weird. The buzz is believed to be somewhat dependent on the frequency you are on. 900 is worst, 1800, less so, 1900 reported as ok. Do you have an 850 phone or 900? The Digital Pioneer wrote: > Buzz was interesting for me... I have never had trouble with it before, but > then I took a trip to Tennessee, and I was told it was horrible. Once I got > back home, it was gone again. Weird. > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Hi buddy! Werner Almesberger wrote: > Steve Mosher wrote: >> hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware requires >> a "waterfall" design process, at least in my experience. In the software >> world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects >> that followed a strict waterfall model. > > Hmm, I think one risk of having a "heavy" development process is > that everyone tries to cram all their pet ideas into the project > like there's no tomorrow. And yes, I have to plead guilty there > as well :-( Yes. This is all controlled by the requirements in a proper process since the requirements specify a target BOM and launch date. The phenomena you refer to is called feature creep. > > I think a useful compromise would be a rigid process from design > to prototype or product, but the ability to start such processes > in rapid succession. yes, ideally with multiple dev teams and a standardized archetecture I've seen this work. > > A lot of problems in the GTA01/GTA02 design were only found after > they hit end-users. Instead of bickering for half a year about > buzz fixes, wouldn't it have been easier in the end if we had > just been able to start a new design, with the necessary changes, > but only them ? Of course. I don't want to rehash particular decisions, but most product shortcomings ( in all products) can be traced back to poor requirements or badly expressed requirements. > > This isn't of course something you just decide and it's done. > You have to design the company/organization around such an idea. > E.g., don't produce at a factory that could spit out a million of > units a week but that takes three months to get rolling. > >> minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy? >> ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI. > > From (painful) memory: Half a month of getting a straight answer > from the vendor whether the chip can do it, about two weeks of > figuring out how to best rearrange that whole software stack such > that the problem becomes solveable, a few days of implementation, > well above a month to find out why that perfect plan didn't work, > followed by a few more days of working around the silicon bugs > eventually discovered. Ah yes, and when it was done, it didn't get > used :-( Sorry to bring up painful memories. To use another metaphor, lots of people thing of parts on a board as pieces of code you can just comment out and recompile. > > When assessing the complexity of a problem, we tend to see only > those few days of actual development, not those months of > unexpected consequences. yup.. > >> The OM designs all used "modules" for GSM and modules for things like >> WIFI and BT as opposed to "down" designs or chips on PCBs. The diffculty >> is not in finding components or modules > > Famous last words ;-) I'd humbly submit that it can be incredibly > painful to find certain components if you're not a really big > player. And sometimes, one has to use components that aren't even > designed for phones, which creates its own set of problems. true. > >> The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in >> letting idiots vote. > > In Linux, we have the concept of "benevolent dictators" ;-) I think we are back to that discussion we had in the cab about consensus and debate. I've softened my position somewhat. > > Very nice and insightful post. Thanks ! > > - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Thanks Anthony. For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold and find a way to involve the community more in its development. inlined below find an advanced copy of my official comments. stuff I send to the press. As a side note on this, these official comments grew out of posts I made here first. During sean's presentation someone commented that our approach to open business was the most radical he had seen. It is. and it presents great challenges for all of us. Seans video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxI&feature=PlayList&p=96FB31DA6E4012DA&index=1 I'll have my video up in a bit, an interview. Here's the advance copy of my comments to the press. During the last week Openmoko has had two great events. First the Embedded System Conference, ESC) and second, the OpenExpo in Bern. Those events could not have been more well timed for us because we had two major announcements to make: a thrust into the embedded systems market and the announcement of a new device, not a phone but an entirely new open device. The launch into the embedded systems market is a case of the market finding the manufacturer. We designed the FreeRunner as an open phone. After it launched we started to receive requests from customers we never dreamed existed: Innovators who wanted to change the case or add in additional hardware. People who wanted to resell the phone with their software added. The collective creativity outside the company, dwarfed the creativity within the company. Our customers truly are an army of Davids. To seize this opportunity we decided to open up our CAD files, and open up our schematics. That way these new-found markets can develop for themselves products that we don’t have the resources to develop. So, over the next few months you’ll see us make a more focused effort in this market space. As a platform for embedded development, nothing compares to the FreeRunner: Open schematics; Open CAD; Open hardware; Open software. At OpenExpo we had a keynote speech in the business track. This gave us the opportunity to explain some of the change in focus we’ve made in the past month. Our CEO Sean Moss-Pultz delivered the presentation and I’ll take some space here to explain in a bit more detail the background behind these exciting changes. Sean discussed three things: 1. Our successes. 2. Our mistakes. 3. Our challenges It’s vitally important when addressing the challenges of the future to assess and understand your past success. Openmoko launched its first developer phone in July of 07 and the FreeRunner shipped in July of 08. Sales tripled. Not only did we build a phone; we built a company and distribution network in the process. We also helped others build their own businesses around the FreeRunner. Our takeaway lessons were as follows: Open Products can be successful in the marketplace; being Open multiplies everyone’s business opportunities. For our mistakes we identified these: Open Product design is very hard as there is a tendency to make too many changes. Our culture is not authoritarian. We also tended to view hardware with a “software” mentality, as something that could be easily changed or patched. Our challenge going forward is to seize the opportunity we see in the embedded space and push forward the cause of open hardware. And we had to make some choices about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were essentially three projects going on inside OpenMoko: ongoing support of FreeRunner; Development of a follow on phone, the GTA03; and development of project “B”. From a resources standpoint we could pick any two. Given the traction we see in the embedded space and given our passionate commitment to current FreeRunner owners and developers it was easy to pick that project. Nine months after launching FreeRunner with tremendous support from the community the product is coming into its own with a diverse set of distributions that run on it, from android to debian. Then comes the choice between project “B” and the GTA03. There were two paths: A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03 B: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch project B. We will talk more about project B in the coming months, but these salient facts guided our decisions: 1. GTA03 was in constant flux as a design. 2. GTA03 schedule was consequently always slipping. 3. The resources required for GTA03 are 3X those required for Project B. 4. OM doesn’t have 3X resources So, we picked plan B. Focus on supporting the FreeRunner and launching the more modest project, project B. That decision entailed putting GTA03 on hold and rethinking how we do that product and that business in a better way: learning from our mistakes and building on our success. It also meant
Re: Slashdotted
Well, sean announced the mailing list at openexpo. also talked about our long term view. I read through your other comments below. Thanks. On the Proto boards. PCB is just one component of the cost of a EVT board. I know with the Voodoo II I spent at least 1000 per board to get a 2 day turn back in 1998 or so. The difficulty with a cell phone PCB, and the GTA03 in particular, was the small number of houses who could actually build the PCB, laser drilled, the 6410 BGA required a very specialized PCB, cant recall all the details.. hey Im marketing. Plus components for a short run tend to be very expensive. Granted I didnt go over all the costs with a fine tooth comb. (task belongs to engineering) In any case I think with something like Dr. N approach and the one rattling inside my head we could probably get through EVT with a volunteer effort. let me see about the progress on getting the list set up. Lothar Behrens wrote: > > Am 05.04.2009 um 23:21 schrieb Steve Mosher: > >> Good comments All. >> >> Let me inline some answers/explanations. >> >> > > Snip > >>> >>> My education in 1987 till 1990, was electronics engineering. I do not >>> any more practice in that area. So I stuck in some conflict >>> not to start any electronics projects, because I have the glue the >>> project will be a one man show and keep a hobby project. But >>> if there would be a collerative project I could join, I propably >>> would. And may it only getting more practice in laying out PCB boards >>> whose schematics other developers have created. >> Ok.. here comes a question. What layout tools? are there open source >> layout tools ( one hopes) and if not then what tool do we pick? > > I mentioned KICAD > (http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DE:Main_Page). > It is capable to handle up to 16 layers, has a basic autorouter engine, > but also could > use an external one I think. > > It is multiplatform (Windows, Linux, Mac OS X and probably others). > There is a 6 layer > PCB board as a sample that is a video grabber. > > As a plus, it could display boards in 3D and supports wings 3D models to > be used for > the parts. > > Also the schematics is organized in scheets and subsheets, so one could > divide a project > in sub projects. The scheets therefore could get connectors to enable > inter scheet connections. > (In my words :-) > > I think the same would be possible if we design PCB components with > prelayouted stuff, but this > is only an idea with the component as is in mind - why should it not > possible to couble a component > with a layout except the interconnection wires. > > To pick up the colerative aspect of PCB design, I could ask the dev > team, if it is possible to add > a color scheme to show the differences in layout to be a helper to spot > differences between versions. > >> >> Essentially, you are pitching the idea I'm going to try to get going. >> I'll make an announcement about it shortly, but my plate is pretty full >> and I can only volunteer a couple hours a day to help organize and >> guide it. >>> >>> If that would be possible, then it would be a real open phone :-) >>> >>> End of arsing around. Is there a potential to create a hardware >>> development comunity? >> I think so. no harm in trying. >>> >>> To avoid that each individual will start its own variant we could >>> using a vote system before any direction is done, say wich formfactor is >>> used, for sample. >> The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in >> letting idiots vote. You dont want me voting on your layout and >> convincing everyone with my superb rhetoric that your 8 layer design >> can be accomplished in 2 layers.. you get my drift. The community will >> have to have SME ( subject matter experts) They will have to have some >> undemocratic powers. my view at least. > > My knowledge is a bit away (Eagle, HP UX DS ??), but I know, Ill do > something wrong, if I used 8 layers > but these are 20% filled only each. > > OTOH, some guides could be applied like this: This board is a candidate > for two layers. Don't use more than 4. > > I participated layouting in motor control circuits, backplanes for > computer systems and also > computer systems (the Transputer processor). > > I got more knowledge by often doing a review and do layouts in steps. > First the power and block capacitors then > the group of data signals and then the remaining stuff. > > Critical stuff is HF and that sould be a separate step. Keep versions. > Also a
Re: Slashdotted
thats the funny thing about inboxes and bills. If you ignore them they dont go away, they just get bigger. There's a bunch of jokes here I refuse to make. Marcel wrote: > That's the point - I was away from home the last week only and kinda shocked > found the om-community and debian-user-german folders with 320 mails each > when I came back which is nothing compared to your 1800 mails... :) > > -- > Marcel > > Am Monday 06 April 2009 01:08:24 schrieb Steve Mosher: >> thanks. During march I got so effin buried in other stuff that my >> community posting went to hell. I sat there looking at my community >> inbox grow and grow. And I thought "I rather open my cell phone bill >> than plow through 1800 community mails" but in the end you pay your cell >> phone bill and plow through those mails. As long as I keep the inbox >> empty every day, its a joy to read and respond. >> >> Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes wrote: >>> Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like! >>> Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside! >>> >>> Keep it up! >>> >>> - Gunnar >>> >>> Steve Mosher wrote: >>>> Good comments All. >>>> >>>> Let me inline some answers/explanations. >>>> >>>> Lothar Behrens wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or >>>>> useless - I don't know. But anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-) >>>>> >>>>> What is a open phone? >>>>> >>>>> Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware? >>>>> >>>>> If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any >>>>> person, why don't we do the same for >>>>> hardware? >>>>> >>>>> Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have >>>>> developed, but I virtually could >>>>> develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money >>>>> for a rent to let one of the >>>>> team do outstanding tests. >>>> At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides: >>>> 1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire) >>>> 2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel) >>>> >>>> And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old >>>> kid tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt >>>> microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? >>>> because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their >>>> business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in >>>> 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK >>>> companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics; >>>> and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies >>>> and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming >>>> to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS. >>>> So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John >>>> and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the >>>> "manhatten project" later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive >>>> technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on >>>> his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS >>>> aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D The point: in the >>>> software world, a kid and an idea is potentially a powerful force. The >>>> history of this is covered in this book: >>>> >>>> Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three >>>> Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress >>>> Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers >>>> the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the >>>> acquisition of RenderMorphics. >>>> >>>> The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy >>>> to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is >>>> comparatively low. >>>> >>>> Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul >>>> Otillini
Re: Buying a Freerunner
Somewhere on the wiki is a place to log your non -problem. I suspect its due to one of two things, joerg and others chime in--- The buzz is most prnounced at 900mhz. rf infects the lines heading into the mixer and you'll see a ripple on the mic lines coming out. This manefests itself as a buzz for the listener on the other end. @1800 the buzz is less pronounced and @1900 you get no buzz( AFAIK) so, if your cell tower is giving you 1900, no buzz. The other explanation could be filtering on the landline. wild ass guess. Somebody with an actuall EE degree can probably explain better or more accurately. Marcel wrote: > Just for the records (which possibly already contain this): > I have a 02A5 (from the second batch which reached Germany) and had no buzz > on > my two short test calls the last weeks, but they only went from the Neo to a > landline phone in the other room if that's relevant. > > -- > Marcel > > Am Monday 06 April 2009 00:57:33 schrieb Steve Mosher: >>not shipping with buzz fix yet. >> >>but im slowly pushing forward >> >> Joerg Reisenweber wrote: >>> Am So 5. April 2009 schrieb Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes: >>>>> 1. The phone selling for 299 on the main site, do es it have the bug >>>>> fix? or might I still have that problem? >>>> From Steve recent email about getting the v7 through production I guess >>>> not. >>> Steve also mentioned as many as possible on stock A6 getting fixed at >>> fab. So if I got that right we are shipping with buzzfix right now. >>> /j ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
thanks. During march I got so effin buried in other stuff that my community posting went to hell. I sat there looking at my community inbox grow and grow. And I thought "I rather open my cell phone bill than plow through 1800 community mails" but in the end you pay your cell phone bill and plow through those mails. As long as I keep the inbox empty every day, its a joy to read and respond. Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes wrote: > Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like! > Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside! > > Keep it up! > > - Gunnar > > Steve Mosher wrote: >> Good comments All. >> >> Let me inline some answers/explanations. >> >> Lothar Behrens wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or >>> useless - I don't know. But anyway. >>> >>> Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-) >>> >>> What is a open phone? >>> >>> Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware? >>> >>> If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any >>> person, why don't we do the same for >>> hardware? >>> >>> Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have >>> developed, but I virtually could >>> develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money >>> for a rent to let one of the >>> team do outstanding tests. >> At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides: >> 1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire) >> 2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel) >> >> And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old >> kid tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt >> microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? >> because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their >> business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in >> 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK >> companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics; >> and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies >> and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming >> to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS. >> So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John >> and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the >> "manhatten project" later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive >> technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on >> his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS >> aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D The point: in the >> software world, a kid and an idea is potentially a powerful force. The >> history of this is covered in this book: >> >> Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three >> Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress >> Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers >> the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the >> acquisition of RenderMorphics. >> >> The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy >> to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is >> comparatively low. >> >> Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul >> Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business >> what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what >> EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of >> the chip? Who was his fab? was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow >> for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc. >> The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon >> are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry >> are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost. >> >> >> So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that >> entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude >> easier than entering the hardware business. >> >> This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a >> point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that >> characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the >> hardware business at the system level.
Re: Slashdotted
Thanks Lothar. I think Dr N and I will have some fruitful discussions on how to start this. I'll contribute my time and experience as I am able to to get this going. Lothar Behrens wrote: > Am 05.04.2009 um 21:00 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: > >> Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a >> future GTA03, >> > > [snip] > >> * funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a >> community funds or society or association or however the legal form >> has to be choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for >> students and go upwards for individuals and companies. And special >> services (e.g. managing the production of 100 customized units) >> could even provide more funding for the organization. > > And indeed we fund with the purchase of our phones. I mostly played > with the navit package and done some bug reports. It's a hobby and > thus it would > also move someone to fund in comunity sub projects when there is a way > of hand on soldering and the like. > > Also I played with the CAD files, wrote a script to convert some of > them, that costs me about 1 day. It is a fund. The idea behind that > was to make the CAD > files available in more formats and thus propably push private case > mods. > >> >> A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a >> community should take a look at: >> >> http://www.amsat.org/ >> >> Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50 >> satellites in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than >> building an open smartphone. > > Hmm. Then open source projects were not the first movements in the > spirit of openess :-) > > This is a great sample. > > Here are some links about mobile equipment resellers: > > TFT displays: > http://www.cartft.com/catalog/gl/111 > > USB display > http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/1057 > > carPC site (german): > http://www.car-pc.info/ > > A link to books about building car PC's (linked in the carPC site): > http://www.amazon.de/dp/0071468269?tag=cartftcom-21&camp=1410&creative=6378&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0071468269&adid=044B8W2G03ATQDZ5ECZK&; > > This is unrelated but there are always people who build their own :-) > > Lothar > > -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de > Lothar Behrens > Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2 > 73252 Lenningen > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Buying a Freerunner
not shipping with buzz fix yet. but im slowly pushing forward Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > Am So 5. April 2009 schrieb Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes: >>> 1. The phone selling for 299 on the main site, do es it have the bug >>> fix? or might I still have that problem? >> From Steve recent email about getting the v7 through production I guess not. > Steve also mentioned as many as possible on stock A6 getting fixed at fab. > So if I got that right we are shipping with buzzfix right now. > /j > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
as always, ditto, what joerg said. I could release the GTA03 design files, but there value is limited. If the design were verified (DVT) and made ready for production (PVT) then the design files would only have value for somebody who wanted to quickly produce PCBs. As a resource for a design mod ( take out edge and add in 3G) it's of limited value since that new design will have different dimensions and will therefore have knock-on effects on ME and RFs.. see joergs comment about the systems intgration systems engineering task ( layout,EE,ME, and procuremnt) Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > Am So 5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens: >> Hi, >> >> I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or >> useless - I don't know. But anyway. >> Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively? > [...] > Hi Lothar, > nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw development > Steve mentioned in one of his current posts. > Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in Eagle, and > tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other half is a > *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys, the RF > guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc. > IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some layout task. > Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in mind when > creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters. > > for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by selling > hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help EE guys in > community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for production > purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis with > layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the guy > who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You can't patch > a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw POV on > hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen proto PCB > done by "anonymous" community guys, without checking each and every trace and > footprint again what in the end for sure is more work than doing it inhouse > from scratch. > Other companies tend to keep schematics closed to protect their IP, so we at > OM at least don't want to give asian cloners a kickstart without adding *any* > benefit for our customers. > > best regards > jOERG > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdotted
Dr. N We are thinking down similar paths. See my other other posts. I will check out the satilite site. My sense is, without even looking, that a fair number of people working on the project probably had some aerospace background and were well schooled in the process of requirements driven product design. I dont want to clog up community with this talk so I'm trying to get a new list set up. Steve Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a > future GTA03, > > I have also been thinking for a while in exactly the same direction. > Making the development of the GTA03 a community activity. Supported and > sponsored by individuals and companies who are interested in the results. > > On one hand HW development needs a clear and close communication between > people. On the other hand it needs a large number of supporters who keep > their fingers out until they are asked. But synchronizing activities is > much more difficult than with SW (using SVN or GIT). > > What we IMHO therefore need is: > > * a core team that works (at least semi-)professionally on it. I think > the community is large enough to provide enough members with all > expertise that is required (from mechanics over battery to RF etc.). > * a clear milestone plan as in every successful hardware development > project > * a specification freeze at some point in the milestone plan > * openness to ask for help into the community to judge between several > similar technical solutions for the same requirement > * funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a community > funds or society or association or however the legal form has to be > choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for students and go > upwards for individuals and companies. And special services (e.g. > managing the production of 100 customized units) could even provide more > funding for the organization. > > A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a > community should take a look at: > > http://www.amsat.org/ > > Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50 satellites > in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than building an open > smartphone. > > Nikolaus > > > Am 05.04.2009 um 19:39 schrieb Lothar Behrens: > >> >> Am 05.04.2009 um 18:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: >> >>> Am So 5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens: Hi, I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or useless - I don't know. But anyway. Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively? >>> [...] >>> Hi Lothar, >>> nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw >>> development >>> Steve mentioned in one of his current posts. >> >> I may read his post... >> >>> >>> Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in >>> Eagle, and >>> tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other >>> half is a >>> *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys, >>> the RF >>> guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc. >> >> It is indeed difficult. But otoh are many hw projects >> (http://opencores.org/ >> or http://opencollector.org/ for sample), >> or at least hw related. >> >>> >>> IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some >>> layout task. >>> Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in >>> mind when >>> creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters. >>> >> >> I don't speak about outsourcing. I have made similar experiences with >> outsourcing: >> >> An EE project (motor control) should be outsourced, but the schematics >> were sent by faximile! >> The result was about writing an application to compare the netlists to >> compare the then distinct >> projects (different wire names and the like). >> >> So don't split any EE project or work with different versions without >> a CVS or SVN! >> >> But giving development boards or mobile phone development kits would >> be an option to >> broaden the idea behind open mobile phone. Say, a GSM kit could be >> used for the carPC hobby >> engineer. And there are really GSM modules sold by other companies. >> (http://www.gsm-modem.de/ >> ) >> >> Then you have the control about your pcb design, but propably broaden >> your product palette. >> >> Not all developers need a complete telephone. But you could indeed get >> more value if the >> 'components' of a mobile device also spread the globe - as a >> development kit or separately. >> >>> for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by >>> selling >>> hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help >>> EE guys in >>> community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for >>> production >>> purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis >>> with >>> layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the >>> guy >>>
Re: Slashdotted
Good comments All. Let me inline some answers/explanations. Lothar Behrens wrote: > Hi, > > I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or > useless - I don't know. But anyway. > > Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-) > > What is a open phone? > > Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware? > > If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any > person, why don't we do the same for > hardware? > > Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have > developed, but I virtually could > develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money > for a rent to let one of the > team do outstanding tests. At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides: 1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire) 2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel) And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old kid tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics; and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS. So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the "manhatten project" later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D The point: in the software world, a kid and an idea is potentially a powerful force. The history of this is covered in this book: Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the acquisition of RenderMorphics. The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is comparatively low. Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of the chip? Who was his fab? was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc. The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost. So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude easier than entering the hardware business. This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course, but one level up from that: designing hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K. I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units. you unit test them. Then you do your first integration. You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you hit the compile button? We've all sat there and said, just compile it, see if works. That's easy in software. In Sean's presentation you'll see a slide. "gcc GTA02v5 doesnt work" what that means is this. There are perhaps some unconcious attitudes people have carried over from the software world that will jump up and bite them when they start to work in the hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware requires a "waterfall" design process, at least in my experience. In the software world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects that followed a strict waterfall model. In a waterfall model you start with requirements. And you don't write a line of code until requirements are 100% done and complete and signed off. Once the requirements are done. They don't change. Then, and only then you get to do design. You are still not writing any code. when desi
Re: Sean's speech at ESC about making a 3G device
Rask Ingemann Lambertsen wrote: > On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 11:27:02PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote: >> The GTA03 as a design had a recamping bug. it kept changing. and changes >> of course, are perceived as "easy". after all, hardware is just like >> software.. I won't go through all the iterations of GTA03. But it's >> processor changed, the RFs changed, in the end the design had no >> Wifi and no GPS. Raise your hand if think that a GTA03 with no wifi >> and no GPS is good thing to sell to the community? Raise your hand if >> you think it was a mistake to kill this? > >Yes, I think GPS and Wifi/WLAN can be considered a requirement these days > for anything else than a basic cell phone. > >I kind of like the GTA02.5 idea (see Tim Dobson's message) as a follow up > to the GTA02: > > Upgrade S3C2442B to S3C6410. > Take out the Glamo, including >- using the S3C LCM interface for the display. >- using the S3C SDIO interface for the SD card connector. This means > finding somewhere else to hook up the Wifi chip (and in turn finding > another Wifi chip I guess). > Upgrade Calypso GSM to Cinterion MC75i. That's pretty close to one iteration the design went through. > > Time, space and cost permitting: > Camera on S3C6410 camera interface. > Stylus with middle and right "mouse" buttons. > Increased maximum display brightness. > Increased maximum speaker volume. Design had a capacitive screen and a camera. > > Generally keep everything else as in GTA02v8. More had to change, like wifi chip vendor. > >Most of this was already being worked on for the GTA03 - certainly the > kernel patches suggest so. So I'm curious what changed so much in the > intended usages of the GTA03 (compared to GTA02) that it had to be cance^W^H > postponed. The Neo1973 was released in July 2007 and the Freerunner in July > 2008, so with about the same number of changes for the new device as between > the two previous ones, perhaps a "GTA2.5" could have been out in about July > 2009. It must have been more than just the volume up/down buttons that did > it. > One of the schedules had a July Ship date, essentially as you describe. 6410, agps,wifi,camera,BT, accels. 2.5G ( after some early flirtations with 3G which just set us back ) the difficult was threefold: 1. Getting price separation from the FreeRunner. could I charge 499 for such a phone. With FreeRunner at 399 would processor bump and a camera justify a +100 dollar adder. 2. Fitting all of this inside the ID we had for the phone. The ID is complete as well as mechanical and there were issues with the latter fitting in the former without some serious work and comprimises. 3. Some manufacturing challenges for the case. a few key unknowns. 4. Antenna design issues. With all those RFs in the case we had it was a serious concern whether it would work or not. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bying a Freerunner with the "buzz"-fix on it
your welcomed. I really got behind on my list mail. Now that I'm back down to zero unread mails on the community its easier for me to respond in a timely fashion. Cédric Berger wrote: > Thanks for all these precisions ! > > Good to have more infos... > > > > > > 2009/4/4 Steve Mosher : > [...] >> When distributors start to take shipments of A7 ( see 1-5 above) we will >> make an announcement. The buzz fixing program is coming together >> with Tuxbrain taking a pivotal role in working through the logistics >> with me. >> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bying a Freerunner with the "buzz"-fix on it
Cédric Berger wrote: > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 02:09, Steve Mosher wrote: >> so much for my schedules. >> >> There were some issues with ALSA states. so manufacturing got put on >> hold. then Chinese new year. I'll have an update shortly on A7. >> >> > > So as I understand these were issues not only relating to software ? The issues are as follows: 1. A delay due to the timing of chinese new year. factories shut down. 2. We needed to check that the ALSA states in the production image gave a good experience on the A7. 3. Engineering a smooth transition in the channel between the A6 which is in inventory, and the A7. 4. Coming up with a plan for fixing as much of the buzz issue on existing stock as possible. 5. Working with our distributors to roll the A7 out. > Because if it was just a matter of alsa states files not ready yet, > production would not have to be put on hold (hey if openmoko would > wait for software be ready to start production, no freerunner would be > existing yet ;-) ) Sorry, but I got the hammer on this one. I didnt want to launch A7 and require customers to reflash as their first chore. Further, I wanted to go over the test results myself for the phones sent to test before I committed to SMT and assembly. I did that in late feb. > > And if it is the buzz fix (by adding the cap) that causes potential > problems... what about the SOP currently applied to freerunners ? They > may be impacted by incorrect ALSA states ? Yes, that was a concern of mine as well, so this too had to be checked and verified. The complication being that a reworked A6 can only be distinguished AFAIK by visual inspection and not by checking a bit in the hardware. Joerg may correct me on this, but I believe the only ALSA state setting that may be effected is the mic sensitivity or gain ( can't recall, exactly ) > > > > > oh... and still no update about A7 production ? Since I probably have > my phone to be replaced (broken button), I am waiting for Bearstech to > get new phones (they are out of stock, and anyway since I have to > send my phone I want either a A7 or at least the buzz fix applied... > not having to send it again later to get it fixed...) When distributors start to take shipments of A7 ( see 1-5 above) we will make an announcement. The buzz fixing program is coming together with Tuxbrain taking a pivotal role in working through the logistics with me. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The future of the Neo Freerunner
read my posts. I should have something official done this weekend. I thought id get it done tonight, but lots of other things to do. So, read my posts here. and ask me for clrification. Thomas Bumberger wrote: > As Openmoko sacked/was left by 50% of its developers and halted the > development of GTA03 > i want to know your opinion on the future of the Neo. > As it seems Openmoko stopped funding FSO too. > > Are there any official statements beside the announcement yesterday at > OpenExpo. > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean's speech at ESC about making a 3G device
See below Arigead wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Steve Mosher wrote: >> Since I worked on the presentation with Sean for the days he was here in >> SF, let me give you my view and sean's view. That way we won't get into >> some version of the telephone game. >> >> Sean discussed three things at OpenExpo. >> >> 1. Our successes. >> 2. Our mistakes. >> 3. Our challenges >> >> I won't go over 1& 2 but I'll cover #3 since rasters perception has >> a bit of color added to it. Only a tiny bit and he's entitled >> to that color commentary, I'll just add what Sean and I, as authors >> of the presentation, had as our message. >> >> Our biggest challenge was to make a choice about how to spend the >> balance of 2009. >> >> There were two paths: >> A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03 >> B: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch project B. >> >> We will talk more about project B in the coming months, but these >> salient facts should be able to guide any budding executives out there. >> >> 1. GTA03 was in constant flux as a design. >> 2. GTA03 schedule was consequently always slipping. >> 3. The resources required for GTA03 are 3X those required for Project B. >> 4. We don't have 3X. >> >> So, we picked plan B. >> >> Now comes the question, what about GTA03? how do we get there? And when? >> and what is it? >> >> Well my basic argument was and is this: >> >> First we attend to the issues that still remain with the GTA02. That's >> why the VP of marketing ( of all people) is working on the buzz fix >> problem. Second we complete project B. When we've done that, then we >> get to eat dessert. Essentially, I made the same argument I heard so >> many times on this list: "How do expect us to buy a GTA03 when you've >> yet to deliver on all the promise of FreeRunner?" And I took the >> arguments I heard from disty seriously, "how do you expect us to buy FR, >> when GTA03 is right around the corner?" And I accepted the arguments I >> heard from Engineers I respect who questioned the viability of the GTA03 >> in the market place. All of those arguments said "put a bullet in its >> brain pan!" >> >> So, what about GTA03? As it was defined, it is dead. So how do we >> get to a new GTA03? Two requirements: continue to improve GTA02; deliver >> on project B. What is GTA03 and when do we get there? There are a number >> of independent efforts out there that are pitching me ideas for GTA03. >> I talked to sean a bit about this and I'd like to try to open up more >> of the design process and the marketing process to the community. >> Perhaps on a separate list. Some of these discussions have already started. >> >> What can you do to help? >> 1. Move GTA02 code upstream. >> 2. Stay Involved. >> 3. Continue work on applications >> 4. Buy a FreeRunner. >> 5. Get involved in GTA03 discussions >> >> Best, >> >> Steve >> >> >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: >>> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:35:58 +0100 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra >>> said: >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 06:13:36PM +0100, Justyn Butler wrote: >>>>> 2009/4/2 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra : >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:38:42PM +0100, Justyn Butler wrote: >>>>>>> He also explains what it would take to put 3G in the phones, saying >>>>>>> that they'd do it (but the 3G part would be closed) if a customer put >>>>>>> in a large enough order (ie 50,000 units). >>>>>> You've just convinced me that, unless this changes, no OpenMoko with 3G >>>>>> will get my money as far as I'm concerned :) >>>>> Why the outrage? >>>> I bought the OpenMoko to get a more Free Software phone, not one that >>>> gets less and less Free as new devices come up :) >>>> >>>> I seriously hope GTA3 fixes some of the most serious problems GTA2 had >>>> regarding that. >>> 3g can be done - just like the 2g on feeerunner - you will talk to a closed >>> blob via a defined protocol. just like any chip anywhere. no less free than >>> gta02 in that way. BUT yes - you'll pay an extra $200. >>> >>> nb gta03 - you missed the news from sean's talk at openexpo in switzerland. >>> gta03 is "postponed" (read cancelled
Re: Sean's speech at ESC about making a 3G device
I can upload the files, but Let me tell you how we work together and you'll see why my email is probably your best bet to understand things, today. I work in words. Sean works in pictures. So by the time we are finished we have a presentation that is all pictures. and then sean talks to that. A video was done. So that's the best of all because its pictures and words. Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: >> >> Sean discussed three things at OpenExpo. >> >> 1. Our successes. >> 2. Our mistakes. >> 3. Our challenges >> >> I won't go over 1& 2 but I'll cover #3 since rasters perception has >> a bit of color added to it. Only a tiny bit and he's entitled >> to that color commentary, I'll just add what Sean and I, as authors >> of the presentation, had as our message. > > Is it possible for you to upload the slides somewhere so that we can > read what was presented? Or is there some video? > > Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean's speech at ESC about making a 3G device
Sargun Dhillon wrote: > When will project B be announced? I have not made a final decision. First I need a solid schedule from engineering. That is, a schedule, with a high probability of hitting its target. Given the channels I expect to launch this in, there is no leeway for slips. I'm talking about schedule certainty down to the week if not day. Right now as a placeholder date for the announcement I have a day selected in august. > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Steve Mosher wrote: >> Since I worked on the presentation with Sean for the days he was here in >> SF, let me give you my view and sean's view. That way we won't get into >> some version of the telephone game. >> >> Sean discussed three things at OpenExpo. >> >> 1. Our successes. >> 2. Our mistakes. >> 3. Our challenges >> >> I won't go over 1& 2 but I'll cover #3 since rasters perception has >> a bit of color added to it. Only a tiny bit and he's entitled >> to that color commentary, I'll just add what Sean and I, as authors >> of the presentation, had as our message. >> >> Our biggest challenge was to make a choice about how to spend the >> balance of 2009. >> >> There were two paths: >> A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03 >> B: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch project B. >> >> We will talk more about project B in the coming months, but these >> salient facts should be able to guide any budding executives out there. >> >> 1. GTA03 was in constant flux as a design. >> 2. GTA03 schedule was consequently always slipping. >> 3. The resources required for GTA03 are 3X those required for Project B. >> 4. We don't have 3X. >> >> So, we picked plan B. >> >> Now comes the question, what about GTA03? how do we get there? And when? >> and what is it? >> >> Well my basic argument was and is this: >> >> First we attend to the issues that still remain with the GTA02. That's >> why the VP of marketing ( of all people) is working on the buzz fix >> problem. Second we complete project B. When we've done that, then we >> get to eat dessert. Essentially, I made the same argument I heard so >> many times on this list: "How do expect us to buy a GTA03 when you've >> yet to deliver on all the promise of FreeRunner?" And I took the >> arguments I heard from disty seriously, "how do you expect us to buy FR, >> when GTA03 is right around the corner?" And I accepted the arguments I >> heard from Engineers I respect who questioned the viability of the GTA03 >> in the market place. All of those arguments said "put a bullet in its >> brain pan!" >> >> So, what about GTA03? As it was defined, it is dead. So how do we >> get to a new GTA03? Two requirements: continue to improve GTA02; deliver >> on project B. What is GTA03 and when do we get there? There are a number >> of independent efforts out there that are pitching me ideas for GTA03. >> I talked to sean a bit about this and I'd like to try to open up more >> of the design process and the marketing process to the community. >> Perhaps on a separate list. Some of these discussions have already started. >> >> What can you do to help? >> 1. Move GTA02 code upstream. >> 2. Stay Involved. >> 3. Continue work on applications >> 4. Buy a FreeRunner. >> 5. Get involved in GTA03 discussions >> >> Best, >> >> Steve >> >> >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: >>> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:35:58 +0100 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra >>> said: >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 06:13:36PM +0100, Justyn Butler wrote: >>>>> 2009/4/2 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra : >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:38:42PM +0100, Justyn Butler wrote: >>>>>>> He also explains what it would take to put 3G in the phones, saying >>>>>>> that they'd do it (but the 3G part would be closed) if a customer put >>>>>>> in a large enough order (ie 50,000 units). >>>>>> You've just convinced me that, unless this changes, no OpenMoko with 3G >>>>>> will get my money as far as I'm concerned :) >>>>> Why the outrage? >>>> I bought the OpenMoko to get a more Free Software phone, not one that >>>> gets less and less Free as new devices come up :) >>>> >>>> I seriously hope GTA3 fixes some of the most serious problems GTA2 had >>>> regarding that.
Re: Sean's speech at ESC about making a 3G device
Since I worked on the presentation with Sean for the days he was here in SF, let me give you my view and sean's view. That way we won't get into some version of the telephone game. Sean discussed three things at OpenExpo. 1. Our successes. 2. Our mistakes. 3. Our challenges I won't go over 1& 2 but I'll cover #3 since rasters perception has a bit of color added to it. Only a tiny bit and he's entitled to that color commentary, I'll just add what Sean and I, as authors of the presentation, had as our message. Our biggest challenge was to make a choice about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were two paths: A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03 B: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch project B. We will talk more about project B in the coming months, but these salient facts should be able to guide any budding executives out there. 1. GTA03 was in constant flux as a design. 2. GTA03 schedule was consequently always slipping. 3. The resources required for GTA03 are 3X those required for Project B. 4. We don't have 3X. So, we picked plan B. Now comes the question, what about GTA03? how do we get there? And when? and what is it? Well my basic argument was and is this: First we attend to the issues that still remain with the GTA02. That's why the VP of marketing ( of all people) is working on the buzz fix problem. Second we complete project B. When we've done that, then we get to eat dessert. Essentially, I made the same argument I heard so many times on this list: "How do expect us to buy a GTA03 when you've yet to deliver on all the promise of FreeRunner?" And I took the arguments I heard from disty seriously, "how do you expect us to buy FR, when GTA03 is right around the corner?" And I accepted the arguments I heard from Engineers I respect who questioned the viability of the GTA03 in the market place. All of those arguments said "put a bullet in its brain pan!" So, what about GTA03? As it was defined, it is dead. So how do we get to a new GTA03? Two requirements: continue to improve GTA02; deliver on project B. What is GTA03 and when do we get there? There are a number of independent efforts out there that are pitching me ideas for GTA03. I talked to sean a bit about this and I'd like to try to open up more of the design process and the marketing process to the community. Perhaps on a separate list. Some of these discussions have already started. What can you do to help? 1. Move GTA02 code upstream. 2. Stay Involved. 3. Continue work on applications 4. Buy a FreeRunner. 5. Get involved in GTA03 discussions Best, Steve Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:35:58 +0100 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra > said: > >> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 06:13:36PM +0100, Justyn Butler wrote: >>> 2009/4/2 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra : On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:38:42PM +0100, Justyn Butler wrote: > He also explains what it would take to put 3G in the phones, saying > that they'd do it (but the 3G part would be closed) if a customer put > in a large enough order (ie 50,000 units). You've just convinced me that, unless this changes, no OpenMoko with 3G will get my money as far as I'm concerned :) >>> Why the outrage? >> I bought the OpenMoko to get a more Free Software phone, not one that >> gets less and less Free as new devices come up :) >> >> I seriously hope GTA3 fixes some of the most serious problems GTA2 had >> regarding that. > > 3g can be done - just like the 2g on feeerunner - you will talk to a closed > blob via a defined protocol. just like any chip anywhere. no less free than > gta02 in that way. BUT yes - you'll pay an extra $200. > > nb gta03 - you missed the news from sean's talk at openexpo in switzerland. > gta03 is "postponed" (read cancelled - postponed is just a nice way to say it > and try and keep the community hanging around in hope it un-cancels, as > openmoko has laid off most of their staff (also news from openexpo), their > linux staff. you don't un-postpone if you just let all the people go who work > on the software). > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSM buzz-fix party in Braunschweig, Germany
I'm working with the resellers to come with a program to fix the stock. A couple have offered to work with me and we are ironing out the details for a program for all the resellers. Joerg, myself and others have been at this problem since early december. In parallel I'm looking for innovative and community driven ways to fix the phones in people's hands. Typically, I'm a impatient person, so I understand and appreciate and would never grant others the patience they have granted me. Pander wrote: > Hi all, > > For me from centre of the Netherlands it is 413 km, 4 hours by car. > > I have been of the list for a while. When is the exact date for this fix > party? > > Any one else from the Netherlands or Belgium thinking about going there > by car? Perhaps car pulling is an option. Four OpenMoko geeks will have > plenty to talk about in 4 hours of driving ;) Possibly we could bring > even more devices to fix. > > What about the resellers, are they having their stock fixed? > > Regards, > > Pander > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: "$299 ESC San Jose limited time Special!" ?
The phones are indeed A6. The sale is happening for a limited time Shipped from the US Only. So, it's mostly 850Mhz phones. Cédric Berger wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 16:00, Joseph Reeves wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I've not seen any mention of this on the lists, but it all looks very cheap! >> >> http://us.direct.openmoko.com/products/neo-freerunner >> >> # GSM 850 ( Promotion, Extras: pouch and headset x 1) $299.00 USD >> # GSM 900-10 Pack $2,690.00 USD >> # GSM 850-10 Pack $2,690.00 USD >> >> Not an April Fools thing is it? > > This must be in-stock phones, and as next ones (GTA2 A7) should have > some buzz fix already done at factory, these "old" ones will loose > value I would say... > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
